ShadowProc wrote: »

Shaggygaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Rin_Senya

Damn just stop. Its blatantly clear to anyone with half a brain that in that video he is showing his disdain for ball groups.
You are seriously trying so hard to spin his words about everything and find even the slightest inconsistency in his posts to create dumb arguments about how he is a hypocrite or whatever. Its not working and its laughable. You got roasted, get over it and just stop cause at this point you are making urself look stupid.

Give her a break. It is already extremely pathetic that no one liked them on EU that they had to reroll in a dead game to NA. Most of her friends are people no one likes or people who have been banned and had to buy more ESO accounts.

Your saying Drac are rerolls from EU who got banned? For what, being way to arrogant and self centered?

Shaggy is just a broken record at this point. He knows nothing other than the salt he feels at not getting an invite to guild and then being removed from friendslist after he whined about it too much after a heavy night on the "zerg punch"

If you want to know why we are on NA you can read for youself (posting past evidence isnt so hard see )

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243220/banana-squad-rolling-na/p1

We liked it and stuck around others quit for BDO / EU things.

Also:

Post from when Shaggy wanted to be in guild:

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Nice vids Drac!

Posts from after he was removed from friends (all the best ones were removed by mods):

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Except for Drac.. They don't poop. They hold their poop and wait until groups engage another group or the faction stack before they attack. Any time I was at Chal I would see Drac off to the side hiding behind terrain waiting for their chance to hit another group already engaged. It would usually be about 40 VE fighting Invic and then you'd see the 11 person (no more than 12 but less than 19. We don't count the dedicated camp runners like Rudixy) Drac group engaging only after Invic or the faction stack pushed first.

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Drac it doesn't count excuses because..

You beat us with 8 and we were only running 7 and one of them was a stamblade so it doesn't count.
You beat us with 16 and we only had 15 so it doesn't count.
You beat us with 24 and we only had 18 with two dedicated "speed pots to put up camps build" and we normally only run 16 so it doesn't count.

I feel like I'm missing a few more Drac excuses?
.

Back to topic

pieratsos wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

You were whining how he is a hypocrite because he cant do it anymore and thats the only reason he is calling ball groups out now. But in the video he is showing his disdain for ball groups and thats clear to anyone with half a brain. You can keep playing with words and trying to spin them all you want. Its still laughable and not working and u keep embarrassing urself even further.

Your whole argument was stupid to begin with. You just bit off a little more than u can chew and you got roasted as well. You should put ur tail between ur leg and save urself from further embarrassment but instead u resorted to stupid attempts at insulting people by calling them monkeys and cheerleaders and now u are talking about language and how he hurt ur feelings by calling u bot.

I'm going to assume you can't read, is there a format you would prefer me to post in perhaps pictogram?
Just in case there is an off chance this isn't the case I'll repost the bolded section from my previous post to give you another chance.
The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle. with clear evidence showing problems and thought where possible. Otherwise you will never have an open and unbiased discussion which can lead to something good.
Additionally you clearly have never heard of this expression, consider it a free expansion of your vocabulary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_organ_grinder,_not_the_monkey

@Rin_Senya

I'm done here. The only reason I posted in depth was because if there was one thread a ZoS developer would look at in this sub-forum, it would be this one. That was why I went into depth. My issue is with the tactics destro-stack-on-crown-raids use, not groups. The distinction is clear enough for others to see yet you can't grasp it.

You can go ahead and delude yourself that the "cheerleaders" and "monkeys" on these forums who do not see things your way are all my friends or VE members, but that is not the case.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh? That

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle.

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. You make assumptions about me, insist that I'm a hypocrite, and make (incorrect) assertions about how I have played the game, how I currently play the game, and my motivations.

Practice what you preach when someone insults the play-style you so vigorously want to defend.

Stoney_McGeee wrote: »

Buffing siege won’t fix anything , .

Why not? Siege is extremely weak currently on the CP campaigns. Maybe a little too strong in non-CP

This kind of group will always use coordinated PBAOE abilities, but I'd suggest slight nerf or reduction in radius of destro ult, maybe adjust dual wield ulti so one morph is similar PBAOE, at least some option for stamina builds to participate.

pieratsos wrote: »

Newton's_bane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Just because you put some thought and made a build it doenst mean that the whole server needs to suffer for it and that you should get carried by bs mechanics.

Solo players put lots of thought into making their builds as well. A lot more thought than you do i should add and thats not even a debate. They dont feel entitled to bs mechanics to carry them and wreck everyone in their path.

I assume you never ran in a PvP train. If you had you would never make that comment. Most of the week I play solo or smallscale and have made countless builds by now and I know it takes a while to come up with something new and get used to it. I must admit that the majority of time doesn't go into making a build for a train but the majority goes into training. It takes months to work together as one train group and as much as becoming a good leader. I think I can for sure say that making a good solo build is just a fraction of what goes into making a good train.
But that's not the point the thing is that trains target zergs not solo players or smallscalers. They are not even effective against them. So solo players have not much to worry about unless they are zerg surfing ofc. I mean what do you want else: absolutely no counterplay to massive zergs of another faction while your faction struggles to put 10 players together?

You are comparing the leader of an entire organised train to a solo player just to justify that overall every member of an organised train has to think a lot more than a solo player. You are comparing apples with oranges. Ive played in a train. But if u have actually ever played solo small scale you would never even attempt to compare it with a random member of trains in terms of skill. Come on now. You cant possibly be serious about that. Its not even funny.

You are talking about not having counterplay against unorganized zergs. But do you know what the irony is about counterplay? That those solo/small scale player or anyone else for that matter have no counterplay against you. There is literally less counterplay against you than to an unorganized group with double the size of ur group. The only way to counter you is with another similar group like urs or even bigger crutching on the exact same stupid mechanics. Everything is about numbers which leads to the zerg fest that you actually dont like.

You are arguing for the same thing that you dont like and you dont even know it. I understand that you may like that playstyle but you seriously need to open ur eyes and realise what the f is going on.

I'm really confused as to what you are trying to advocate for here. Should everyone just run around solo? This thread wasn't created to bash on organized play, it was created to discuss the current organized meta. You're just bashing general organized play and stating your opinions as fact.

Yes solo players cannot counter an organized group. They shouldn't. They are outnumbered and fighting something that is designed to work together with synergy. If a solo player had the tools to wipe an organized group then those in that group would be using the same tools but more efficiently with more people. This shouldn't be an argument. If you are outnumbered and your opponent is organized you should lose the majority of the time.

Yes ball groups exist as a result of the large mindless zergs. The mindless zergs do not exist as a result of the ball groups. There are giant 50 man zergs running around regardless if there is a organized ball group to fight them. How do you propose people counter that? Another mindless 50 man zerg? How is that a challenge for player skill and growth? Not to mention the servers would crash nightly trying to support this.

If you want to run solo and fight small groups of unorganized players by all means do it. It's fun. But there shouldn't be an expectation of "I should be able to win any fight I want" in open world PvP with no regard for numbers or organization.

If the game people are pushing for is one where group skill is irrelevant and individual killing potential is the priority, you're going to have a much much worse meta with everyone frontloading nothing but pure heals or pure damage and zero counterplay.

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh? That

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle.

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. You make assumptions about me, insist that I'm a hypocrite, and make (incorrect) assertions about how I have played the game, how I currently play the game, and my motivations.

Practice what you preach when someone insults the play-style you so vigorously want to defend.

Nice attempt to change the narrative to your favour.

The only language i've used towards you is to call you out for being a hypocrite, it wasn't me who started insulting other playstyles and players calling them mindless and bots etc..
Hypocrite is not an insult if its accurate and I believe it has been shown to be so in this example.

I'm going always going to stick up for group players and groups when they are insulted because I play that style as does the guild I'm in and thus an insult to them is an insult to me and the rest of my players. That doesn't preclude having a discussion about any gameplay format provided its done in a positive way.

Equally cheerleaders isn't an insult, unless you take it as one, in which case I would have to wonder what your past history with sports has been. Texas, Shaggy and the rest of the crew were actually the ones insulting and adding nothing towards the conversation yet where is your condemnation of them? Perhaps this is another example of the above?

A good rule to live by would be: If you don't like being called out, don't flame in the first place.

Perhaps now I've demonstrated my point we can move on and post in a more positive way.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh? That

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle.

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. You make assumptions about me, insist that I'm a hypocrite, and make (incorrect) assertions about how I have played the game, how I currently play the game, and my motivations.

Practice what you preach when someone insults the play-style you so vigorously want to defend.

Nice attempt to change the narrative to your favour.

The only language i've used towards you is to call you out for being a hypocrite, it wasn't me who started insulting other playstyles and players calling them mindless and bots etc..
Hypocrite is not an insult if its accurate and I believe it has been shown to be so in this example.

Not from where i am standing.

Hi Steve

[19:12] [Canio Tradito] zone: If you really want to trigger him, tell him that I'm cuter than him

To Steve

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Oh, so you have a problem about the language used huh? That

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle.

Yet you and Rin have zero problem using insulting language that is directed at me personally. You make assumptions about me, insist that I'm a hypocrite, and make (incorrect) assertions about how I have played the game, how I currently play the game, and my motivations.

Practice what you preach when someone insults the play-style you so vigorously want to defend.

Nice attempt to change the narrative to your favour.

The only language i've used towards you is to call you out for being a hypocrite, it wasn't me who started insulting other playstyles and players calling them mindless and bots etc..
Hypocrite is not an insult if its accurate and I believe it has been shown to be so in this example.

I'm going always going to stick up for group players and groups when they are insulted because I play that style as does the guild I'm in and thus an insult to them is an insult to me and the rest of my players. That doesn't preclude having a discussion about any gameplay format provided its done in a positive way.

Equally cheerleaders isn't an insult, unless you take it as one, in which case I would have to wonder what your past history with sports has been. Texas, Shaggy and the rest of the crew were actually the ones insulting and adding nothing towards the conversation yet where is your condemnation of them? Perhaps this is another example of the above?

A good rule to live by would be: If you don't like being called out, don't flame in the first place.

Perhaps now I've demonstrated my point we can move on and post in a more positive way.

The narrative is the same.

You have demonstrated that you have zero problem throwing out insults and calling out other people and guilds for behavior that you have done yourself. You talk about how important it is to use non-insulting language to have a valid discussion, yet excuse yourself from that standard because of what you believe to be true. When I insult the tactics your raid uses, you take it as a personal insult. When you insult me personally, you refuse to acknowledge it as such. And you call my a hypocrite. The irony.

Tex, Shaggy, and other VE members are grown-ups, they can and do speak for themselves. I do not represent them nor do they represent me. If you have an issue with something they said to you, it's not my place to condemn them. That's up to you and you have responded.

And you can scream and yell and insist to everybody that I insulted groups all you want, but it's not groups per se I have criticized, rather is a specific mechanics that favors tight-stacking and mass PBAoEs that stack-on-crown groups use to devastating effectiveness. You are being intentionally obtuse to claim my video "made no references similar to Joys current diatribe." "Empowering lag blobs" "punishing small groups against F**** zergs" "ball groups don't have to do a thing except stack on crown" "pvp tactics are a joke" "just download papacrown" and "small group play is dead" are commensurate with what you find so insulting in this thread. You're just sore because your assumption about me feeling differently after VE disbanded was wrong.

At some point, all the hate tells players who pain train get, all the awful and offensive things written in Zone chat about ball-groups (which are far far worse than anything I wrote in these forums), and the 3+ years of commentary on these forums that go way back to "impulse spamming monkeys," should make it crystal clear that the game would be better off at least trying to make meaningful changes to encourage something different from coordinated PBAoEs and the PapaCrown add-on.

Give the people what they want. Your guild and your players are good enough to adapt and excel.

Ill toss in some not so thought through comments from my perspective; First of all, organized bomb groups (using PBAoE mechanics) has always and will always make and be a major impact in any true world vs world mmorpg. How the skills are organized, what they are called and what classes they need is of less importance as the members wanting to be a part of it will always adapt to make it as effective as possible.

The zerg has ALSO always been a part of world vs world mmorpgs, and has its righful place. It is made up of two type of players; those who want to win either "the campaign" (eg. playing the conqueror game) and logically find numbers to be a good way of obtaining that objective, and those who are just casual, just wanting to enjoy a bit of gametime, surfing the zerg, which is also obviously fine.

In many other games, what often happens is that each faction within the world vs world ambience seem to feed the bomb teams with players moving from smallscale/zergs to organized PBAoE teams as they master the game more/get better etc. This way a big game with lots of active players will normally have several more or less competent guilds/groups running around either protecting their factions zerg, often relying on it, and at the same time pushing for fights, often organized, versus bomb teams of the opposite factions. Examples from games like DAOC, WARhammer online, GW2 etc. backs this. If we take GW2, which still is a very competitive game, the scene still consists of guilds who want to push up and challenge the top tier guilds, recruiting "hungry" players every now and then. The top tier guilds change name every now and then and at the same time, the zerg has its natural place alongside, pushing for caps and supporting keep takes, just like how it should be in ESO.

I dont know if it is because its so "easy" to change faction within a campaign, but that competitive scenery and organization is lacking a lot in ESOs cyrodiil. Yes, there are a lot fo guilds, but often they organize LFG teams, letting randoms or friends into their groups. They jump faction/campaign every now and then and makes the whole picture very blurred. In the end you really dont know anymore who is actually who, and so a LOT of players just jump in to gain some AP and chat with friends/foes. When those very few (handful at most) dedicated wargroups then enter the scenery, they will inevitably demolish whatever they face, because the opponent is so far behind in what they want to achieve. ESO Cyrodiil atm HAS no real competitive scene. I dont see anyone atm who are close to take down ZS, banana squad or whatever. And personally I really enjoy watching (used to be part of) those guuld meet ups. Its normally a good showing of organization, skills, and right coordination t right times. Its not like that in ESO, unfortunately. The better the bomb team (and there arent many real good bomb teams left. If you start recruiting members for your bomb team in /z, its never gonna improve your game and organization, and at that point youre a PUG organizer, which is also fine) the harder impact it will have on the zergs they meet.

Perfectly each faction should have 2 or 3 really coordinated guilds to protect and carry their factions zerg around to keep captures. That way the game itself would be way more interesting and the zergs would be smaller as well, as what often happens when theres good guilds in the lakes, they start to organize groups too; "PUG team 1 take DC, PUG team 2, tag Sejanus" and so on. And they will be more organized and less blobby because they know they have some good guilds in the back in case they get stopped by other factions. Wish ESO was more like this, but atm PUGs and casuals they dont trust the other groups within the lakes enough to try to move away from the zerg, as they know at least theres SOME protection in running around with 60+ others