Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

After reading both sides of the argument and a variety of possible solutions, the one I like best is the suggestion for some kind of player debuff that is only applied by the player themselves and thus adjusts their stats and the amount of damage they take while increasing reward possibilities (higher percentages for higher tiered rewards). Tying it to some kind of story/achievements may also make people more likely to participate and work towards being able to do that mode. Some people still won't be happy with this because its purposefully 'cripples' their character but it seems to be the best compromise between providing more of a challenge for those who want it while incentivizing doing so for the added rewards/achievements without forcing it on those who are satisfied.

Why does their have to be xtra rewards though? Shouldnt the reward be that you get to play the game without falling asleep? Players will then think they need to do the hard mode because all their friends are, and will complain its too hard. I dont think there needs to be any incentive or extra reward beyond the fact that players would have more options.

Without getting into the difficulties of implementing a difficulty slider or toggle in an open level scaled environment without mob tagging lockouts or seperate instances, creating arbitrary difficulty spikes just for the sake of rarely work. Players by nature will always take the path of least resistence for equitable rewards. There needs to be a measurable incentive, otherwise engagement falls flat.

I hear what you are saying about the difficulty for the sake of it, but if the least resistance statement were true the title of the thread would be “more rewards” not “harder game”. It would be extremely shallow of someone to deny fun engaging content simply because there is no reward, in my opinion. Entertainment is the reward.

Its a natural law of video games really.. the majority of players will not bother with facing more pushback from a game if there is no incentive or yeild. That has been proven time and time again across multiple games over the years.

Not to sound rude, but entertainment is its own reward is a bit of a naive statement. If that were the case, then self imposed handicaps to raise your own personal stakes would be enough. You might have a small dedicated group of the player base partake in hardmode overland content but thst would be the exception to the rule. Even a title attached to clearing the various zones on a raised difficulty would be enough of an incentive mind you, but there needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick no matter what.

Maybe not enough for you or some others, but I have no problem taking to path less traveled. In single player games, I play on hard. Do I get anything for it? A sense of achievement is the reward. It’s the same reason I use minimal UI in this game and never try to figure out what the meta is. Satisfaction is subjective, and some people don’t know how to enjoy what they have.

Btw. I took my armor off. Made enemies harder. Not impossible. It’s also easy to roleplay into the story. Maybe armor is heavy and only used when necessary... who knows. At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it. If people need a cookie every time they accomplish something, perhaps the problem is with the person, not the game.

Your outlook has been proven not to work in the mmo genre though. Tackling a difficult single player game is satisfying in and of itself to be sure, because they reinforce the player, they exactly as i have said earlier, they provde the tools and teach the player yet they do not coddle them. What happens is the player feels empowered and there is a distinct satisfaction when you overcome a challenge that was honest and fair to the player.

You are confusing to seperate issues here, the above statement i believe is the better game design but that has to be integral to the core game at its foundation. There is a reason the souls series traditionally does not have a difficulty option. You are applying your pov to the later point which is if a hard mode was made to be a selectable option and not organic to the core game in an mmo, then proper incentives need to be in place. Again.. im talking about a naturally more involved overland game for everyone, not a max level end game mode in this case.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

After reading both sides of the argument and a variety of possible solutions, the one I like best is the suggestion for some kind of player debuff that is only applied by the player themselves and thus adjusts their stats and the amount of damage they take while increasing reward possibilities (higher percentages for higher tiered rewards). Tying it to some kind of story/achievements may also make people more likely to participate and work towards being able to do that mode. Some people still won't be happy with this because its purposefully 'cripples' their character but it seems to be the best compromise between providing more of a challenge for those who want it while incentivizing doing so for the added rewards/achievements without forcing it on those who are satisfied.

Why does their have to be xtra rewards though? Shouldnt the reward be that you get to play the game without falling asleep? Players will then think they need to do the hard mode because all their friends are, and will complain its too hard. I dont think there needs to be any incentive or extra reward beyond the fact that players would have more options.

Without getting into the difficulties of implementing a difficulty slider or toggle in an open level scaled environment without mob tagging lockouts or seperate instances, creating arbitrary difficulty spikes just for the sake of rarely work. Players by nature will always take the path of least resistence for equitable rewards. There needs to be a measurable incentive, otherwise engagement falls flat.

I hear what you are saying about the difficulty for the sake of it, but if the least resistance statement were true the title of the thread would be “more rewards” not “harder game”. It would be extremely shallow of someone to deny fun engaging content simply because there is no reward, in my opinion. Entertainment is the reward.

Its a natural law of video games really.. the majority of players will not bother with facing more pushback from a game if there is no incentive or yeild. That has been proven time and time again across multiple games over the years.

Not to sound rude, but entertainment is its own reward is a bit of a naive statement. If that were the case, then self imposed handicaps to raise your own personal stakes would be enough. You might have a small dedicated group of the player base partake in hardmode overland content but thst would be the exception to the rule. Even a title attached to clearing the various zones on a raised difficulty would be enough of an incentive mind you, but there needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick no matter what.

Maybe not enough for you or some others, but I have no problem taking to path less traveled. In single player games, I play on hard. Do I get anything for it? A sense of achievement is the reward. It’s the same reason I use minimal UI in this game and never try to figure out what the meta is. Satisfaction is subjective, and some people don’t know how to enjoy what they have.

Btw. I took my armor off. Made enemies harder. Not impossible. It’s also easy to roleplay into the story. Maybe armor is heavy and only used when necessary... who knows. At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it. If people need a cookie every time they accomplish something, perhaps the problem is with the person, not the game.

Your outlook has been proven not to work in the mmo genre though. Tackling a difficult single player game is satisfying in and of itself to be sure, because they reinforce the player, they exactly as i have said earlier, they provde the tools and teach the player yet they do not coddle them. What happens is the player feels empowered and there is a distinct satisfaction when you overcome a challenge that was honest and fair to the player.

You are confusing to seperate issues here, the above statement i believe is the better game design but that has to be integral to the core game at its foundation. There is a reason the souls series traditionally does not have a difficulty option. You are applying your pov to the later point which is if a hard mode was made to be a selectable option and not organic to the core game in an mmo, then proper incentives need to be in place. Again.. im talking about a naturally more involved overland game for everyone, not a max level end game mode in this case.

Please provide the proof then... seems like there is a common norm amongst regular mmo players for sure. Similar to trendy teenagers who latch onto some pop cultural identity. That mmo’s need to be played like X, and if you don’t then you are not good at the game. In many cases, these players are delusional and are just copying someone so they can get the best *** and then learn some boring rotation so they can repeat the same skills 100k times.

So why is it different than a single player? Because you say so? Is GTA: Online much different than the single player? Oh but that’s not an MMO? Right? Who wrote the rules for how to be an Uber mmo player? WoW? I’m so sick of people trying to impose dated standards onto the rest of us because they were brought up a certain way and feel like it can’t be different.

I never needed any cookies to play Oblivion or Skyrim, and I don’t need cookies to play ESO. My satisfaction comes from the role play, the lore, and the adventure. If your only goal is to get some materialistic rewards, I’m sorry but there are only so many gold items you can equip. And if you want something to brag about, perhaps you should take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

After reading both sides of the argument and a variety of possible solutions, the one I like best is the suggestion for some kind of player debuff that is only applied by the player themselves and thus adjusts their stats and the amount of damage they take while increasing reward possibilities (higher percentages for higher tiered rewards). Tying it to some kind of story/achievements may also make people more likely to participate and work towards being able to do that mode. Some people still won't be happy with this because its purposefully 'cripples' their character but it seems to be the best compromise between providing more of a challenge for those who want it while incentivizing doing so for the added rewards/achievements without forcing it on those who are satisfied.

Why does their have to be xtra rewards though? Shouldnt the reward be that you get to play the game without falling asleep? Players will then think they need to do the hard mode because all their friends are, and will complain its too hard. I dont think there needs to be any incentive or extra reward beyond the fact that players would have more options.

Without getting into the difficulties of implementing a difficulty slider or toggle in an open level scaled environment without mob tagging lockouts or seperate instances, creating arbitrary difficulty spikes just for the sake of rarely work. Players by nature will always take the path of least resistence for equitable rewards. There needs to be a measurable incentive, otherwise engagement falls flat.

I hear what you are saying about the difficulty for the sake of it, but if the least resistance statement were true the title of the thread would be “more rewards” not “harder game”. It would be extremely shallow of someone to deny fun engaging content simply because there is no reward, in my opinion. Entertainment is the reward.

Its a natural law of video games really.. the majority of players will not bother with facing more pushback from a game if there is no incentive or yeild. That has been proven time and time again across multiple games over the years.

Not to sound rude, but entertainment is its own reward is a bit of a naive statement. If that were the case, then self imposed handicaps to raise your own personal stakes would be enough. You might have a small dedicated group of the player base partake in hardmode overland content but thst would be the exception to the rule. Even a title attached to clearing the various zones on a raised difficulty would be enough of an incentive mind you, but there needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick no matter what.

Maybe not enough for you or some others, but I have no problem taking to path less traveled. In single player games, I play on hard. Do I get anything for it? A sense of achievement is the reward. It’s the same reason I use minimal UI in this game and never try to figure out what the meta is. Satisfaction is subjective, and some people don’t know how to enjoy what they have.

Btw. I took my armor off. Made enemies harder. Not impossible. It’s also easy to roleplay into the story. Maybe armor is heavy and only used when necessary... who knows. At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it. If people need a cookie every time they accomplish something, perhaps the problem is with the person, not the game.

Your outlook has been proven not to work in the mmo genre though. Tackling a difficult single player game is satisfying in and of itself to be sure, because they reinforce the player, they exactly as i have said earlier, they provde the tools and teach the player yet they do not coddle them. What happens is the player feels empowered and there is a distinct satisfaction when you overcome a challenge that was honest and fair to the player.

You are confusing to seperate issues here, the above statement i believe is the better game design but that has to be integral to the core game at its foundation. There is a reason the souls series traditionally does not have a difficulty option. You are applying your pov to the later point which is if a hard mode was made to be a selectable option and not organic to the core game in an mmo, then proper incentives need to be in place. Again.. im talking about a naturally more involved overland game for everyone, not a max level end game mode in this case.

Please provide the proof then... seems like there is a common norm amongst regular mmo players for sure. Similar to trendy teenagers who latch onto some pop cultural identity. That mmo’s need to be played like X, and if you don’t then you are not good at the game. In many cases, these players are delusional and are just copying someone so they can get the best *** and then learn some boring rotation so they can repeat the same skills 100k times.

So why is it different than a single player? Because you say so? Is GTA: Online much different than the single player? Oh but that’s not an MMO? Right? Who wrote the rules for how to be an Uber mmo player? WoW? I’m so sick of people trying to imposed dated standards onto the rest of us because they were brought up a certain way and feel like it can’t be different.

I never needed any cookies to play Oblivion or Skyrim, and I don’t need cookies to play ESO. My satisfaction comes from the role play, the lore, and the adventure. If your only goal is to get some materialistic rewards, I’m sorry but there are only so many gold items you can equip. And if you want something to brag about, perhaps you should take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why.

If you have been playing mmos for the majority of the genres boom will understand why i say it has been proven. Obviously you cant five some direct link to proof. It comes with years of experience.

Ive tried explaining it but i dont believe you are willing to listen. I literally just explained why the notion works in isolated single player environemnts / games and i have tried to explain the philosphy of compelling content with proper incentive, organic difficulty, player reinforcement, risk vs reward systems, respecting player intuition without hand holding, the pros and cons of all inclusivity and seperate different types of activities in game for different player bases and i have tried overall to give some insight into the thought process of how game design works here and why zos has chosen to take this particular game in the direction they have and why its important to understand the reasons for doing so as well as try to offer insight to why certain types of players take issue with it.

These forums are a lost cause.

You can’t just claim preferences have been proven with anecdotal evidence. Especially when the only distinction you are classifying the game as is MMO. It’s pretty much cherry picking the pluses from similar genre games, but ignoring not only their flaws, but the fact that many games of different genres have similar mechanics and standards which have nothing to do with the online vs offline experience. MMO players love to hide behind the abbreviation of the genre as justification for their own preference, but there is much more to games than merely being online.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

After reading both sides of the argument and a variety of possible solutions, the one I like best is the suggestion for some kind of player debuff that is only applied by the player themselves and thus adjusts their stats and the amount of damage they take while increasing reward possibilities (higher percentages for higher tiered rewards). Tying it to some kind of story/achievements may also make people more likely to participate and work towards being able to do that mode. Some people still won't be happy with this because its purposefully 'cripples' their character but it seems to be the best compromise between providing more of a challenge for those who want it while incentivizing doing so for the added rewards/achievements without forcing it on those who are satisfied.

Why does their have to be xtra rewards though? Shouldnt the reward be that you get to play the game without falling asleep? Players will then think they need to do the hard mode because all their friends are, and will complain its too hard. I dont think there needs to be any incentive or extra reward beyond the fact that players would have more options.

Without getting into the difficulties of implementing a difficulty slider or toggle in an open level scaled environment without mob tagging lockouts or seperate instances, creating arbitrary difficulty spikes just for the sake of rarely work. Players by nature will always take the path of least resistence for equitable rewards. There needs to be a measurable incentive, otherwise engagement falls flat.

I hear what you are saying about the difficulty for the sake of it, but if the least resistance statement were true the title of the thread would be “more rewards” not “harder game”. It would be extremely shallow of someone to deny fun engaging content simply because there is no reward, in my opinion. Entertainment is the reward.

Its a natural law of video games really.. the majority of players will not bother with facing more pushback from a game if there is no incentive or yeild. That has been proven time and time again across multiple games over the years.

Not to sound rude, but entertainment is its own reward is a bit of a naive statement. If that were the case, then self imposed handicaps to raise your own personal stakes would be enough. You might have a small dedicated group of the player base partake in hardmode overland content but thst would be the exception to the rule. Even a title attached to clearing the various zones on a raised difficulty would be enough of an incentive mind you, but there needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick no matter what.

Maybe not enough for you or some others, but I have no problem taking to path less traveled. In single player games, I play on hard. Do I get anything for it? A sense of achievement is the reward. It’s the same reason I use minimal UI in this game and never try to figure out what the meta is. Satisfaction is subjective, and some people don’t know how to enjoy what they have.

Btw. I took my armor off. Made enemies harder. Not impossible. It’s also easy to roleplay into the story. Maybe armor is heavy and only used when necessary... who knows. At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it. If people need a cookie every time they accomplish something, perhaps the problem is with the person, not the game.

Your outlook has been proven not to work in the mmo genre though. Tackling a difficult single player game is satisfying in and of itself to be sure, because they reinforce the player, they exactly as i have said earlier, they provde the tools and teach the player yet they do not coddle them. What happens is the player feels empowered and there is a distinct satisfaction when you overcome a challenge that was honest and fair to the player.

You are confusing to seperate issues here, the above statement i believe is the better game design but that has to be integral to the core game at its foundation. There is a reason the souls series traditionally does not have a difficulty option. You are applying your pov to the later point which is if a hard mode was made to be a selectable option and not organic to the core game in an mmo, then proper incentives need to be in place. Again.. im talking about a naturally more involved overland game for everyone, not a max level end game mode in this case.

Please provide the proof then... seems like there is a common norm amongst regular mmo players for sure. Similar to trendy teenagers who latch onto some pop cultural identity. That mmo’s need to be played like X, and if you don’t then you are not good at the game. In many cases, these players are delusional and are just copying someone so they can get the best *** and then learn some boring rotation so they can repeat the same skills 100k times.

So why is it different than a single player? Because you say so? Is GTA: Online much different than the single player? Oh but that’s not an MMO? Right? Who wrote the rules for how to be an Uber mmo player? WoW? I’m so sick of people trying to imposed dated standards onto the rest of us because they were brought up a certain way and feel like it can’t be different.

I never needed any cookies to play Oblivion or Skyrim, and I don’t need cookies to play ESO. My satisfaction comes from the role play, the lore, and the adventure. If your only goal is to get some materialistic rewards, I’m sorry but there are only so many gold items you can equip. And if you want something to brag about, perhaps you should take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why.

If you have been playing mmos for the majority of the genres boom will understand why i say it has been proven. Obviously you cant five some direct link to proof. It comes with years of experience.

Ive tried explaining it but i dont believe you are willing to listen. I literally just explained why the notion works in isolated single player environemnts / games and i have tried to explain the philosphy of compelling content with proper incentive, organic difficulty, player reinforcement, risk vs reward systems, respecting player intuition without hand holding, the pros and cons of all inclusivity and seperate different types of activities in game for different player bases and i have tried overall to give some insight into the thought process of how game design works here and why zos has chosen to take this particular game in the direction they have and why its important to understand the reasons for doing so as well as try to offer insight to why certain types of players take issue with it.

These forums are a lost cause.

You can’t just claim preferences have been proven with anecdotal evidence. Especially when the only distinction you are classifying the game as is MMO. It’s pretty much cherry picking the pluses from similar genre games, but ignoring not only their flaws, but the fact that many games of different genres have similar mechanics and standards which have nothing to do with the online vs offline experience. MMO players love to hide behind the abbreviation of the genre as justification for their own preference, but there is much more to games than merely being online.

Im saying with mmos, harder content without relevant rewards (titles, vantiy items, progression items, currency etc etc) are traditionally upopular.

Still anecdotal. Just because a vocal minority make their way to the forums does not mean they speak for the base.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

After reading both sides of the argument and a variety of possible solutions, the one I like best is the suggestion for some kind of player debuff that is only applied by the player themselves and thus adjusts their stats and the amount of damage they take while increasing reward possibilities (higher percentages for higher tiered rewards). Tying it to some kind of story/achievements may also make people more likely to participate and work towards being able to do that mode. Some people still won't be happy with this because its purposefully 'cripples' their character but it seems to be the best compromise between providing more of a challenge for those who want it while incentivizing doing so for the added rewards/achievements without forcing it on those who are satisfied.

Why does their have to be xtra rewards though? Shouldnt the reward be that you get to play the game without falling asleep? Players will then think they need to do the hard mode because all their friends are, and will complain its too hard. I dont think there needs to be any incentive or extra reward beyond the fact that players would have more options.

Without getting into the difficulties of implementing a difficulty slider or toggle in an open level scaled environment without mob tagging lockouts or seperate instances, creating arbitrary difficulty spikes just for the sake of rarely work. Players by nature will always take the path of least resistence for equitable rewards. There needs to be a measurable incentive, otherwise engagement falls flat.

I hear what you are saying about the difficulty for the sake of it, but if the least resistance statement were true the title of the thread would be “more rewards” not “harder game”. It would be extremely shallow of someone to deny fun engaging content simply because there is no reward, in my opinion. Entertainment is the reward.

Its a natural law of video games really.. the majority of players will not bother with facing more pushback from a game if there is no incentive or yeild. That has been proven time and time again across multiple games over the years.

Not to sound rude, but entertainment is its own reward is a bit of a naive statement. If that were the case, then self imposed handicaps to raise your own personal stakes would be enough. You might have a small dedicated group of the player base partake in hardmode overland content but thst would be the exception to the rule. Even a title attached to clearing the various zones on a raised difficulty would be enough of an incentive mind you, but there needs to be a carrot at the end of the stick no matter what.

Maybe not enough for you or some others, but I have no problem taking to path less traveled. In single player games, I play on hard. Do I get anything for it? A sense of achievement is the reward. It’s the same reason I use minimal UI in this game and never try to figure out what the meta is. Satisfaction is subjective, and some people don’t know how to enjoy what they have.

Btw. I took my armor off. Made enemies harder. Not impossible. It’s also easy to roleplay into the story. Maybe armor is heavy and only used when necessary... who knows. At the end of the day, the game is what you make of it. If people need a cookie every time they accomplish something, perhaps the problem is with the person, not the game.

Your outlook has been proven not to work in the mmo genre though. Tackling a difficult single player game is satisfying in and of itself to be sure, because they reinforce the player, they exactly as i have said earlier, they provde the tools and teach the player yet they do not coddle them. What happens is the player feels empowered and there is a distinct satisfaction when you overcome a challenge that was honest and fair to the player.

You are confusing to seperate issues here, the above statement i believe is the better game design but that has to be integral to the core game at its foundation. There is a reason the souls series traditionally does not have a difficulty option. You are applying your pov to the later point which is if a hard mode was made to be a selectable option and not organic to the core game in an mmo, then proper incentives need to be in place. Again.. im talking about a naturally more involved overland game for everyone, not a max level end game mode in this case.

Please provide the proof then... seems like there is a common norm amongst regular mmo players for sure. Similar to trendy teenagers who latch onto some pop cultural identity. That mmo’s need to be played like X, and if you don’t then you are not good at the game. In many cases, these players are delusional and are just copying someone so they can get the best *** and then learn some boring rotation so they can repeat the same skills 100k times.

So why is it different than a single player? Because you say so? Is GTA: Online much different than the single player? Oh but that’s not an MMO? Right? Who wrote the rules for how to be an Uber mmo player? WoW? I’m so sick of people trying to imposed dated standards onto the rest of us because they were brought up a certain way and feel like it can’t be different.

I never needed any cookies to play Oblivion or Skyrim, and I don’t need cookies to play ESO. My satisfaction comes from the role play, the lore, and the adventure. If your only goal is to get some materialistic rewards, I’m sorry but there are only so many gold items you can equip. And if you want something to brag about, perhaps you should take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why.

If you have been playing mmos for the majority of the genres boom will understand why i say it has been proven. Obviously you cant five some direct link to proof. It comes with years of experience.

Ive tried explaining it but i dont believe you are willing to listen. I literally just explained why the notion works in isolated single player environemnts / games and i have tried to explain the philosphy of compelling content with proper incentive, organic difficulty, player reinforcement, risk vs reward systems, respecting player intuition without hand holding, the pros and cons of all inclusivity and seperate different types of activities in game for different player bases and i have tried overall to give some insight into the thought process of how game design works here and why zos has chosen to take this particular game in the direction they have and why its important to understand the reasons for doing so as well as try to offer insight to why certain types of players take issue with it.

These forums are a lost cause.

You can’t just claim preferences have been proven with anecdotal evidence. Especially when the only distinction you are classifying the game as is MMO. It’s pretty much cherry picking the pluses from similar genre games, but ignoring not only their flaws, but the fact that many games of different genres have similar mechanics and standards which have nothing to do with the online vs offline experience. MMO players love to hide behind the abbreviation of the genre as justification for their own preference, but there is much more to games than merely being online.

Im saying with mmos, harder content without relevant rewards (titles, vantiy items, progression items, currency etc etc) are traditionally upopular.

Still anecdotal. Just because a vocal minority make their way to the forums does not mean they speak for the base. I think the desire for reward might be a sign of an internal struggle that no game will be able to fix. The desire to be seen is not going to be fulfilled with some crappy game achievement. Quite the opposite. You’ll find out eventually that no one cares.

Im not talking about forum outcry. And comments like " I think the desire for reward might be a sign of an internal struggle that no game will be able to fix." are enough to disregard anything else you have to say. The passive aggressive rhetoric is unecessary and inaccurate.

I’m just saying, most of the rewards in this game are worthless but that’s not why people play. One does not need material reward to enjoy themselves.

Let’s drop the passive aggressive rhetoric then. Bottom line, some people want to have things to brag about because they are arrogant, self centered, egomaniacs. They need some worthless reward to show random strangers because it might make them feel like they are worth something. Meanwhile, the rest of us laugh and shake our head, just grateful that we are no longer so insecure that we need to be able to brag in a video game in order to enjoy it.

Katahdin wrote: »

I think overland is fine as it is.

Yes it's drop dead easy for me with > max CP and yellow set gear, all skills and passives unlocked and some understanding of rotation but I see lowbies dying all the time to mobs in the base zones, so clearly it's not too easy for them.

Since bringing in and keeping new players are the lifeblood of the game, it can't be made harder.

But my point is, why does every zone need to be for lowbies?

When a new player starts the game, they'll usually play through the story in order. By the time they get to the DLC areas, they are in the CP levels.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think overland is fine as it is.

Yes it's drop dead easy for me with > max CP and yellow set gear, all skills and passives unlocked and some understanding of rotation but I see lowbies dying all the time to mobs in the base zones, so clearly it's not too easy for them.

Since bringing in and keeping new players are the lifeblood of the game, it can't be made harder.

But my point is, why does every zone need to be for lowbies?

When a new player starts the game, they'll usually play through the story in order. By the time they get to the DLC areas, they are in the CP levels.

Because there is no enforced order to play the story! The whole point of this being a TES game is that people can do the zones in whatever order they fancy. Plus, unless people do research and look up the intended story order, it's really, really easy to get sidetracked, since that intended story order is not always clearly defined in-game.

The game's devs made a deliberate choice to make all the zones equal and to fully support wander-in-any-direction questing rather than follow-this-roadmap questing. This is clear from both their design decisions and their public comments on the matter. And frankly, I think this is a perfectly fine model. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with your straightjacket roadmap model that few care for.

And you never replied to my earlier objection: Would a tripling of difficulty make a zone any less boring for you? If you really are a "MLG Pro Player" as your name would suggest, then I would expect that you would find a more difficult zone to be just as boring, only more tedious.

We had that once before, when Craglorn was "hard" and designed for groups. And as a solo player running around Craglorn, I had no problem killing anything I ran across and surviving whatever hazards there were. Was it harder than the regular zones? Sure. Did that make it a challenge? LOL, no. Was it fun? No. What it was, though, was a bloody nuisance on my Nirncrux circuit.

And I have no idea why you are so obsessed with having this be in the open world. There is a reason why the most difficult content is all locked behind private instances, because that's the only way to get the kind of controlled, restricted environment to make the challenge meaningful and to enable interesting mechanics. For example, soloing a DLC world boss is an overland activity that can be challenging and fun--that is, if you ever get a chance to. Even on the rare occasion that I am able to start a world boss solo, 90% of the time, a zerg will show up to mow it down before I'm done with it.

You want a challenge? Great, so do I. Go do the parts of the game that are designed for that. This strange obsession with converting the general overland into something that it was never meant to be is nonsensical.

idk wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think overland is fine as it is.

Yes it's drop dead easy for me with > max CP and yellow set gear, all skills and passives unlocked and some understanding of rotation but I see lowbies dying all the time to mobs in the base zones, so clearly it's not too easy for them.

Since bringing in and keeping new players are the lifeblood of the game, it can't be made harder.

But my point is, why does every zone need to be for lowbies?

When a new player starts the game, they'll usually play through the story in order. By the time they get to the DLC areas, they are in the CP levels.

The reason is to sell the DLCs of course.

I would be interested in your source for how new players normally play the game when they start out and until they reach CP levels. It does not seem logical.

A new player sees TG or DB launch and gets the game. Is he really going to start in Glenumbra? Another sees the advertisement for Morrowind and wants to see it again. I do not think Auridon will be his first choice. Especially since they will be placed directly in Morrowind from the start. The queen can wait.

Just because I started in the regular zones is irrelevant to where a new player will start. They have a choice.

I have stated before, and again in reply to your comments to me earlier, that other content is intended for the player looking for a challenge. vMA, vDSA, 5 trials and a mini trial all with HM versions. Just because someone considers them to much trouble to run them, chooses not to be in a guild that runs them, that is not anyone else's problem.

Everyone I know who's played the game (including myself) has played through the story in order on their first character, or alternatively started in Morrowind. That's the logical way to play a game. I've never met anyone who jumped straight into TG or DB or Orsinium.

DLCs like Orsinium and CWC directly advance the main story, so going there early on doesn't make any sense.

code65536 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think overland is fine as it is.

Yes it's drop dead easy for me with > max CP and yellow set gear, all skills and passives unlocked and some understanding of rotation but I see lowbies dying all the time to mobs in the base zones, so clearly it's not too easy for them.

Since bringing in and keeping new players are the lifeblood of the game, it can't be made harder.

But my point is, why does every zone need to be for lowbies?

When a new player starts the game, they'll usually play through the story in order. By the time they get to the DLC areas, they are in the CP levels.

Because there is no enforced order to play the story! The whole point of this being a TES game is that people can do the zones in whatever order they fancy. Plus, unless people do research and look up the intended story order, it's really, really easy to get sidetracked, since that intended story order is not always clearly defined in-game.

The game's devs made a deliberate choice to make all the zones equal and to fully support wander-in-any-direction questing rather than follow-this-roadmap questing. This is clear from both their design decisions and their public comments on the matter. And frankly, I think this is a perfectly fine model. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with your straightjacket roadmap model that few care for.

And you never replied to my earlier objection: Would a tripling of difficulty make a zone any less boring for you? If you really are a "MLG Pro Player" as your name would suggest, then I would expect that you would find a more difficult zone to be just as boring, only more tedious.

We had that once before, when Craglorn was "hard" and designed for groups. And as a solo player running around Craglorn, I had no problem killing anything I ran across and surviving whatever hazards there were. Was it harder than the regular zones? Sure. Did that make it a challenge? LOL, no. Was it fun? No. What it was, though, was a bloody nuisance on my Nirncrux circuit.

And I have no idea why you are so obsessed with having this be in the open world. There is a reason why the most difficult content is all locked behind private instances, because that's the only way to get the kind of controlled, restricted environment to make the challenge meaningful and to enable interesting mechanics. For example, soloing a DLC world boss is an overland activity that can be challenging and fun--that is, if you ever get a chance to. Even on the rare occasion that I am able to start a world boss solo, 90% of the time, a zerg will show up to mow it down before I'm done with it.

You want a challenge? Great, so do I. Go do the parts of the game that are designed for that. This strange obsession with converting the general overland into something that it was never meant to be is nonsensical.

I like RPGs. I like questing and exploring. I also like being challenged.

Adventuring in an RPG doesn't have to be easy. Dungeons and trials are such a small part of the game, and they don't have any exploration element to them.

ESO’s overland needs more blankets AND less blankets!

idk wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think overland is fine as it is.

Yes it's drop dead easy for me with > max CP and yellow set gear, all skills and passives unlocked and some understanding of rotation but I see lowbies dying all the time to mobs in the base zones, so clearly it's not too easy for them.

Since bringing in and keeping new players are the lifeblood of the game, it can't be made harder.

But my point is, why does every zone need to be for lowbies?

When a new player starts the game, they'll usually play through the story in order. By the time they get to the DLC areas, they are in the CP levels.

Because there is no enforced order to play the story! The whole point of this being a TES game is that people can do the zones in whatever order they fancy. Plus, unless people do research and look up the intended story order, it's really, really easy to get sidetracked, since that intended story order is not always clearly defined in-game.

The game's devs made a deliberate choice to make all the zones equal and to fully support wander-in-any-direction questing rather than follow-this-roadmap questing. This is clear from both their design decisions and their public comments on the matter. And frankly, I think this is a perfectly fine model. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with your straightjacket roadmap model that few care for.

And you never replied to my earlier objection: Would a tripling of difficulty make a zone any less boring for you? If you really are a "MLG Pro Player" as your name would suggest, then I would expect that you would find a more difficult zone to be just as boring, only more tedious.

We had that once before, when Craglorn was "hard" and designed for groups. And as a solo player running around Craglorn, I had no problem killing anything I ran across and surviving whatever hazards there were. Was it harder than the regular zones? Sure. Did that make it a challenge? LOL, no. Was it fun? No. What it was, though, was a bloody nuisance on my Nirncrux circuit.

And I have no idea why you are so obsessed with having this be in the open world. There is a reason why the most difficult content is all locked behind private instances, because that's the only way to get the kind of controlled, restricted environment to make the challenge meaningful and to enable interesting mechanics. For example, soloing a DLC world boss is an overland activity that can be challenging and fun--that is, if you ever get a chance to. Even on the rare occasion that I am able to start a world boss solo, 90% of the time, a zerg will show up to mow it down before I'm done with it.

You want a challenge? Great, so do I. Go do the parts of the game that are designed for that. This strange obsession with converting the general overland into something that it was never meant to be is nonsensical.

I like RPGs. I like questing and exploring. I also like being challenged.

Adventuring in an RPG doesn't have to be easy. Dungeons and trials are such a small part of the game, and they don't have any exploration element to them.

The person you quoted, Code is correct. Offered a very good and rational explanation of why the game is how it is and why it will not change as you desire.

For the more challenging content Zos created instanced content. Starting with dungeons, vet dungeons and those that are interested and up for it there is the vet trials and vet HM trials.

I have said before, do the vet trials. Saying it is to much work to put together a 12 man team is an excuse. Join a raid guild and it become very easy. Since you are such a strong and experienced player I expect you will be able to get into a good raid guild.

Either way it is unlikely Zos will change any DLCs or create one to provide a stronger challenge to experienced players. They want to be able to sell the DLCs to everyone. It would be bad for business.

But once again you ignored my point: Trials don't offer any RPG gameplay. They are just short, linear instances.

I've also offered plenty of suggestions to make the overworld content more difficult without affecting other players.

Well, before your point is it was to much effort to find 12 players willing to go at it for 3 hours. Though I do not know would stop you from RPG in trials. I RPG a strong and skilled warrior in trials all the time.

Regardless, nothing is stopping you from RPG in the open world as it is. It does not need to be a significant challenge to RPG.

A core component of open world RPGs is exploration, as I mentioned. Exploration without challenge isn't fun.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'd be pissed if those every 5-feet-mobs-to-get-anywhere were actually difficult to kill.

noticed then collecting skyshards or alts on horse with no stamina. Find you have healer setup to

In late oblivion Fallout and Skyrim I tended to go for an low health high damage build on high difficulty, think sudden death.
Npc with heavy weapons tend to kill me in fallout 3/nv/4. (4 had an tanking option )
In Skyrim higher grade enemies with good weapons was dangerous. melee with dragon was death who make sense, an elephant would kill you in melee to unless you had first strike