Difficulty Mementos: a proposal

theslynx · November 2017

There's been a lot of back-and-forth on the forum recently about overland difficulty. Ultimately, no tweak to general difficulty is going to please everyone, so I want to propose the use of Mementos to achieve that effect for individual players. The system would be something like below.

Talk to an Undaunted member to obtain two Mementos. Turning on the Memento provides a buff that lasts 30 minutes (and can be disabled via menus). Upon entering any new area, a text warning pops up, reminding you the buff is active. Additionally, players may not queue for dungeons, PvP, etc. while the Memento is active to avoid problems there.

Two versions of the Memento exist, something like:

Minor Challenge -
e.g., Damage taken +5%, Damage dealt - 5%

Major Challenge -
e.g., Damage taken +15%, Damage dealt - 15%

The Mementos are separate, meaning a player can toggle neither, one or both at the same time to tailor difficulty per character.

Having Challenges active counts towards achievements for killing enemies in Challenge mode. Completing several achievements earns different titles, access to some unique achievement furnishings at a vendor, and other account-bound cosmetic items (e.g. a pet or mount).

None of this is meant to make overland content arduous. It would merely prolong some fights for players in good gear and remind them to pay a bit more attention. Additionally, it would give new players an idea of what they may need to work on before jumping into tougher group content, helping them adjust to new challenges.

That's it. I'm not claiming that this is a perfect system that ought to be (or should/will be) implemented. I am curious if the various sides of this debate would accept something along these lines and we could get back to fighting over other, more interesting stuff.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Sounds good, more gold and better gear drops would be good too.

LordGavus · November 2017

This could be interesting. I would probably only use it for playing with sub 50 friends. It's no fun for them if I Insta kill everything.

Girl_Number8 · November 2017

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

theslynx · November 2017

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

I don't want to touch basic difficulty. I think it's fine. Some don't. This is a response to several other threads from people in the latter camp. I feel like there's some miscommunication going on here. Edit: typo

ak_pvp · November 2017

Just have a vet mode overland. Not rocket science.

LordGavus · November 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Just have a vet mode overland. Not rocket science.

That would require a new instance for each zone. Also levelling everything to vet level.
While I'm not opposed to this entirely, a simple character specific debuff would be much easier.

Jade1986 · November 2017

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

You are really against anything to make more of a challenge, arent you? This wouldnt be forced,i twould be optional.

Jade1986 · November 2017

LordGavus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Just have a vet mode overland. Not rocket science.

That would require a new instance for each zone. Also levelling everything to vet level.
While I'm not opposed to this entirely, a simple character specific debuff would be much easier.

Honestly I would use it straight from the get go and never look back.

MercTheMage · November 2017

Yes. Completely on board with this.

Girl_Number8 · November 2017

Jade1986 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

You are really against anything to make more of a challenge, arent you? This wouldnt be forced,i twould be optional.

Yes I am when it will cause problems. It won't go well at all, it never does with ZoS, the result will be an inferior gaming experience. I have my challenges in getting the extra conditions completed on vet trials and PvP the performance is a challenge in itself. They need to fix the existing problems before adding more screwed up script for a minority of the player base, which is this forum.

These need attention first lag, chat, dc's, bugged quests, PvP, loading screens, add-ons, customer service, etc.

When CwC dropped there is a prime example of the incompetence level we all have come to know. It will break the game more. Major issues need to be fixed first, that would be the games performance issues.

Girl_Number8 · November 2017

theslynx wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

I don't want to touch basic difficulty. I think it's fine. Some don't. This is a response to several other threads from people in the latter camp. I feel like there's some miscommunication going on here. Edit: typo

Yes it will effect it, they're not competent enough to accomplish this, they will go the lazy way to save money. Their track record proves this, smh

Jade1986 · November 2017

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

You are really against anything to make more of a challenge, arent you? This wouldnt be forced,i twould be optional.

Yes I am when it will cause problems. It won't go well at all, it never does with ZoS, the result will be an inferior gaming experience. I have my challenges in getting the extra conditions completed on vet trials and PvP the performance is a challenge in itself. They need to fix the existing problems before adding more screwed up script for a minority of the player base, which is this forum.

These need attention first lag, chat, dc's, bugged quests, PvP, loading screens, add-ons, customer service, etc.

When CwC dropped there is a prime example of the incompetence level we all have come to know. It will break the game more. Major issues need to be fixed first, that would be the games performance issues.

You do realize QA, bug fixing and new feature development are different people right? There would be no effect to the fixing of bugs and the like.

Jim_Pipp · November 2017

This memento idea is amazing, orriginal and elegant and I am strongly behind this.

What I like best is that it doesn't really need much stuff that isn't already in-game, and making it a toggle rather than a separate instance of the zone means that an epic end-game player can do overland with a newer player without taking over.

wishful thinking here With a few more memento options eso could have its own survival mode. E.g. not having a food or drink buff active debuffs you. Burst heals turned into heal over time.

Apherius · November 2017

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I think touching the basic quests is ridiculous and hurtful to a majority of the player base.
These forums are a minority. I am sure you have not completed all the in-game achievements, very few have. You want a challenge, go for that or delete all your characters and start from scratch with no help from friends.

Again someone who don't understand the purpose of a challenge ...

Let's took dungeon as exemple , do you remember WGT and ICP dungeons at their release ? They was ( and they still ) beautiful ! I remember that no one wanted to try these dungeon with me cause i was a noob, so i started watching some build ( yeah cause the eso Tutorial don't teach you anything unfortunaly except how to light attack/block and heavy attack) and i get good thank to one of the old Yolo wizard build, then i found a group to try WGT ... this was A W E S O M E... i don't remember how much time this took us to kill the first boss but ... he was so beautiful and the longer the fight was ... the most stressful it was... and once we killed it we was like " YEAH ! we did it", but the best is that this was only the first boss !

What i mean ? When a content is very hard and long, you get this stressful feeling at the 40/30% of the boss life ... and when you kill it you get this awesome feeling of acomplishment, and this is what we want at the end of a Challenge ...

Mutilate your own char to make the content difficulty isn't that fun ... i would prefer the boss to get more health and damage with faster animation by using the memento you are talking about.

idk · November 2017

What is the difference between OPs idea and merely taking off a few pieces of armor to increase the difficulty?

Seems so much easier to do so and it both reduces the damage one does and increases the damage one receives. Exactly what is being discussed.

Strider__Roshin · November 2017

I like this idea. Although I think it needs to be harsher, and with their own perks:

Dark Souls Momento: -15% damage done, +15% damage received. XP earned +25%

Doctordarkspawn's tears: -30% damage done, +30% damage received. Gold earned +50%

Voxicity · November 2017

Daus wrote: »

I like this idea. Although I think it needs to be harsher, and with their own perks:

Dark Souls Momento: -15% damage done, +15% damage received. XP earned +25%

Doctordarkspawn's tears: -30% damage done, +30% damage received. Gold earned +50%

The true ESO end game

LadyNalcarya · November 2017

Trying to increase difficulty just by increasing/decreasing damage isnt going to work. Its just lazy and boring, no challenge involved.
The most difficult content in ESO (and in many other games) requires you to follow the mechanics and pay attention to your surroundings. For example, people QQ a lot about Dark Souls difficulty... But its only difficult if you just blindly rush and start randomly hitting mobs. If you want to win, you should avoid attacks, learn to parry or dodge in time, etc. Level design also adds to the difficulty - there are traps, poison swamps, mobs trying to ambush you etc. And in my opinion, this is a very good design. The game doesnt just randomly throw hp sponges and oneshots, it encourages you to play smart (after all, all Souls games can be cleared without leveling up).
In ESO, the majority of the mobs are just boring. Increasing their hp and damage wont make them any less boring, it would require a complete redesign of their AI, spawns and combat mechanics. I have a special character for questing, its severely underpowered... but the quests are still very easy.
I think it would be better if they would just add more difficulty gradient so to speak. Now we only have "too easy" and "seems to be impossible compared to overland pve".

theslynx · November 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Trying to increase difficulty just by increasing/decreasing damage isnt going to work. Its just lazy and boring, no challenge involved....
I think it would be better if they would just add more difficulty gradient so to speak. Now we only have "too easy" and "seems to be impossible compared to overland pve".

I don't necessarily disagree. This is mostly in response to people who have been pretty vocal recently about existing overland difficulty being far too low. I don't think overland will ever be a place pitched only to the most skilled, and I don't think it should be, but something like this might tide over some complaints. That said, having an option to increase damage taken a few percentage points should have the side effect of providing gradations of difficulty that are perhaps a bit absent now.

idk wrote: »

What is the difference between OPs idea and merely taking off a few pieces of armor to increase the difficulty?

I think there's a subtle difference. Part of the enjoyment of a 'build' game like ESO is seeing your plan come to life and testing it out in a variety of content. Simply removing bits of armour is never going to be as fulfilling, even if the effect is similar.

Daus wrote: »

I like this idea. Although I think it needs to be harsher, and with their own perks...Gold earned +50%

I think when it comes to reward for tough content, that's where things like Trials and Veteran modes should reign supreme. I would be cautious about playing with material incentives too much (particularly in a game with player trading), which is why I suggested bound cosmetic items and achievements. (Although I can see the rationale behind very small increases in gold gains, simply because your equipment will take a bit more wear.) In general, this is a response to people wanting a bit more challenge in quests and open world - this would be a personal option to push oneself for enjoyment, not material gain.

Vimora · November 2017

Another game did something like this recently and they figured out they needed +80% incoming damage to actually make the content difficulty increase noticable. ESO is kind of similar in the sense that you fight 1-2-3 landscape mobs at once. +15% damage increase will do nothing.

theslynx · November 2017

Vimora wrote: »

Another game did something like this recently and they figured out they needed +80% incoming damage to actually make the content difficulty increase noticable. ESO is kind of similar in the sense that you fight 1-2-3 landscape mobs at once. +15% damage increase will do nothing.

Twenty percent, with both active.The numbers are just figures for the sake of argument. Additionally, I don't think overland content is ever going to be pitched as comparable in difficulty to things like dungeons. What game was this?

idk · November 2017

theslynx wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What is the difference between OPs idea and merely taking off a few pieces of armor to increase the difficulty?

I think there's a subtle difference. Part of the enjoyment of a 'build' game like ESO is seeing your plan come to life and testing it out in a variety of content. Simply removing bits of armour is never going to be as fulfilling, even if the effect is similar.

In the context of this thread the plan is to increase the difficulty so it would be very effective to remove some armor to meet this need. Instead you are suggesting build to the max to make the content easier but ask Zos to make it more difficult.

I guess the question is where does one want to find their fun. Playing the game with a challenge or getting the best gear possible and feel strong so you can feel a little challenge killing some mobs.

I can tell you I when I am in combat my gear is not on my mind.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2017

idk wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What is the difference between OPs idea and merely taking off a few pieces of armor to increase the difficulty?

I think there's a subtle difference. Part of the enjoyment of a 'build' game like ESO is seeing your plan come to life and testing it out in a variety of content. Simply removing bits of armour is never going to be as fulfilling, even if the effect is similar.

In the context of this thread the plan is to increase the difficulty so it would be very effective to remove some armor to meet this need. Instead you are suggesting build to the max to make the content easier but ask Zos to make it more difficult.

I guess the question is where does one want to find their fun. Playing the game with a challenge or getting the best gear possible and feel strong so you can feel a little challenge killing some mobs.

I can tell you I when I am in combat my gear is not on my mind.

Searching for a challenge and obtaining good gear doesn't necessarily exclude each other. Sure it would be easier to just undress but isn't the whole game designed around your builds, feeling different with different builds? If you exclude builds from this game, it will come closer to feel like a action shooter instead of a rpg.

Vimora · November 2017

theslynx wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

Another game did something like this recently and they figured out they needed +80% incoming damage to actually make the content difficulty increase noticable. ESO is kind of similar in the sense that you fight 1-2-3 landscape mobs at once. +15% damage increase will do nothing.

Twenty percent, with both active.The numbers are just figures for the sake of argument. Additionally, I don't think overland content is ever going to be pitched as comparable in difficulty to things like dungeons. What game was this?

It was the Lord of the Rings Online. You have a landscape debuff in the latest area (Mordor). Basically, the farther you stray from the main road, the more potent the debuff becomes, going from +5% to +100% incoming damage (among other things). There is a new stat on gear called The Light of Earendil that counters the effect of the debuff, but in order to get it, you need to progress through the hard zones.

tinythinker · November 2017

theslynx wrote: »

There's been a lot of back-and-forth on the forum recently about overland difficulty. Ultimately, no tweak to general difficulty is going to please everyone, so I want to propose the use of Mementos to achieve that effect for individual players. The system would be something like below.

Talk to an Undaunted member to obtain two Mementos. Turning on the Memento provides a buff that lasts 30 minutes (and can be disabled via menus). Upon entering any new area, a text warning pops up, reminding you the buff is active. Additionally, players may not queue for dungeons, PvP, etc. while the Memento is active to avoid problems there.

Two versions of the Memento exist, something like:
Minor Challenge -
e.g., Damage taken +5%, Damage dealt - 5%

Major Challenge -
e.g., Damage taken +15%, Damage dealt - 15%

The Mementos are separate, meaning a player can toggle neither, one or both at the same time to tailor difficulty per character.

Having Challenges active counts towards achievements for killing enemies in Challenge mode. Completing several achievements earns different titles, access to some unique achievement furnishings at a vendor, and other account-bound cosmetic items (e.g. a pet or mount).

None of this is meant to make overland content arduous. It would merely prolong some fights for players in good gear and remind them to pay a bit more attention. Additionally, it would give new players an idea of what they may need to work on before jumping into tougher group content, helping them adjust to new challenges.

That's it. I'm not claiming that this is a perfect system that ought to be (or should/will be) implemented. I am curious if the various sides of this debate would accept something along these lines and we could get back to fighting over other, more interesting stuff.

Like your idea. I've thought along the same lines. In your scenario make the mementos something you have to earn. Maybe for getting some of those non-DLC Undaunted achievements.

Rainraven · November 2017

Sure. Some testing would find the right percentage.

Better drops though? Nope. Achieves? Nah. Their reward will be how much more exciting and engaging it will be for them walking around Glenumbra.

tplink3r1 · November 2017

idk wrote: »

What is the difference between OPs idea and merely taking off a few pieces of armor to increase the difficulty?

Seems so much easier to do so and it both reduces the damage one does and increases the damage one receives. Exactly what is being discussed.

1. You still maintain progression
2. The game is still stupid easy without gear

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2017

Rainraven wrote: »

Sure. Some testing would find the right percentage.

Better drops though? Nope. Achieves? Nah. Their reward will be how much more exciting and engaging it will be for them walking around Glenumbra.

I would be fine with this. Anything to make it more pleasent for veterans. However, if they make the effort to implement something like this or real vet-zones, they will make them worthwill and add incentives like vet zone boss slayer achievements, just to make sure these zones or mementos get used frequently.

Solexe · November 2017

I like others think that this issue is definitely near the bottom of the to do list. Having said that I think your idea is a nice and elegant solution that would require a minimum of resources to implement and help simulate a more difficult experience.

Vaoh · November 2017

Great idea! I like your solution to this.