A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Dark Souls is considered "hard"?

ESO isn't braindead easy?

Overland content is easy because it's supposed to be available to all. If you want a challenge do vet trials. All content will eventually be easy depending on the time you spend doing it.

What about a compromise and simply allow some mob types to hit harder than others, I mean a lot harder, like in Skyrim, when you see 2 frost trolls while you are still under level 15. This usually means you have to run for your life or quickly press save before engaging. Same goes for Ice Wraiths or a camp of Giants and their beloved Mammoths. These creatures could or should cause a similar amount of fearsome devastation in ESO (for all players). Otherwise, when questing around and avoiding above creatures, things are, indeed, fairly relaxing.

Why not also have larger packs of roaming, random, rare and dynamic bandits or bears or daedra or whatever makes sense for the area, that will seriously f you up if you accidentally run head first into them. The world doesn't have to be entirely overrun with murderous beasts, but there should be at least enough of them around to make you feel as if you better be aware of your surroundings or your character could, as a matter of fact, meet his salty... salty end. What fun is there in exploring, otherwise? Overland bosses are just not enough on their own, as stationary as they are, to make you think twice before running boredly ahead without a care in the world.

I think it would feel exciting to have situations where other player characters, minding their own business and questing, but noticing a rare event-like rumbling of creatures in the distance, make the choice to join in and try and help you defeat a massive gaggle of gruesome and treacherous gibbering skeletons and decomposing drauger wandering obediently behind their enormous Necromancer Overlord, roaming freely across the entire map, noisily making all kinds of trouble for anyone encountering them. Stuff like this could really provide a fun and memorable experience for everyone, even more notably so if there were some solid rewards to be gained from fighting them (drops of semi-rare fragments of a cool costume, or, even more rare, one of many map-themed ingame mounts?).

It would be good for the game as a whole if this type of stuff could be found in every map, not just DLC, but maybe with new DLC, the mobs and the stories and the events could become even more dynamic and detailed, more large-scale perhaps, with more intelligent AI, more banter between enemy NPCs, with creatures in delves and public dungeons having longer leashes for them to find you or sense you with. The ante just being up'ed a little more than in starter zones, with more immersion and more atmosphere, just more time spent by the devs fleshing things out tension-wise in addition to all the story content they excel at creating.

I don't know. I both agree that I don't want new zones like Old Craglorn (with hard stops on solo questing) or an entire DLC unavoidably Dark Soulsesque, but I definitely do not agree that the level of difficulty and excitement is anywhere near where it should be as things stand now, not within the vanilla questing zones or in any of the DLC we are getting. Combat is "DULL" when nothing can kill you. You, as the geared, champion-point maxed hero you are. If we can maybe compromise and add more punishing creatures and memorable events, ones that are entirely avoidable by newer players or, um, super relaxed players, so long as they have eyeballs and ear sockets in their heads, I think everyone can win here.

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Man if this was a let’s create a new Cyrodiil thread it would have 5 comments and 10 views, try make PvE competitive and it’s like poking the care bears

They're very sensitive lol

Voxicity wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Yea, no.

Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.

Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.

The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.

Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards

Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.

Now to be clear, when I said before that I want a difficult zone to encourage grouping, I don't want it to be so difficult that you absolutely MUST group or there is no way you will complete it. I just want mobs that hit like the ones from vMA. Your add packs would still be limited to at most 5, and a good player could still take them out, but almost certainly pulling together 15+ mobs alone would be a death sentence to all but the best players in the game.

Difficulty of the content could be mitigated sort of the same way it can be mitigated by randoms in the Craglorn "group areas" where you'll see some random players fighting and just sort of jump in and support each other.

---

I also reject the idea that Craglorn was a ghost town because it was too hard. It was a ghost town because people completed it already and there weren't really any rewards worth farming in the zone. So once the initial wave of players finished the zone, there was nothing for them there so they went back to the capital cities, and every subsequent group of players trying to do Craglorn would run in to the 4 person group requirement and give up.

Just look at zones like Hew's Bane and Gold Coast. The overland content isn't overly difficult by any means, yet there's no one there because they've finished and moved back to civilization.

---

I also think it has been underestimated in this thread just how many players actually are true end game 25k+ dps characters with a vMA clear. You just don't see them because they don't run pledges any more, and they only ever come out for trials because that's all that's left for them besides maybe PvP.

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Man if this was a let’s create a new Cyrodiil thread it would have 5 comments and 10 views, try make PvE competitive and it’s like poking the care bears

Because, as usual, you're making the fatal mistake of thinking PvP matters in the overall scheme of any PvE oriented mmo. The only ones PvP'ers are in real competition with are the RP'ers, the competition being "Who has THE smallest playerbase in the game?". Let me spell it out for you: PvE > raiders > RPers > PvP'ers ( I only put RPers ahead of PvPers because RPers are at least usually likeable, but maybe you guys have one or two more than them, who knows ).

Anyway, on topic, no thanks to Craglorn type crap. I don't do groups. And in this game, that puts me in the majority.

You want difficult. Try to speech check your way through maelstrom. No fighting allowed!

Voxicity wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Yea, no.

Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.

Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.

The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.

Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards

Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.

So why does ZOS make DLC vet dungeons, vTrials, vMa, vDSA etc? It's not like they are completely against the idea of making hard content. It's just the last few iterations of it have been 12 man.

The general rule of thumb nowadays is an easy mode overland map + a hard trial or dungeon or similar per DLC. I see no reason why this formula cannot be swapped around. Give us a hard overland map with an easy mode dungeon for the casuals

@ArchMikem

because all of those trials dungeons etc - come in normal mode. your swap around idea would ONLy work if that zone had hard and normal modes available

Voxicity wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Yea, no.

Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.

Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.

The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.

Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards

Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.

So why does ZOS make DLC vet dungeons, vTrials, vMa, vDSA etc? It's not like they are completely against the idea of making hard content. It's just the last few iterations of it have been 12 man.

The general rule of thumb nowadays is an easy mode overland map + a hard trial or dungeon or similar per DLC. I see no reason why this formula cannot be swapped around. Give us a hard overland map with an easy mode dungeon for the casuals

@ArchMikem

because all of those trials dungeons etc - come in normal mode. your swap around idea would ONLy work if that zone had hard and normal modes available

Well duhhh

except this doesn't seems to be what OP and others like them want. they want "difficult inaccessible" content for most people. no "easy" mode. and when they say difficult, they really mean "twitchy" and what they actualy want is special rewards they can show off becasue its the only way they can feel good - by feeling superior to "carebears" in a video game.

this funny thing about grouping is that even people who like to play in a group - don't really like being forced to group. coordinating schedules is a pain. you cannot just expect people to be available at a drop of a hat AND want to do the same content you want to do. this is why trials typically get scheduled well in advance, AFTER figuring out who has what availability to come up with a timeslot that is workable and in vast majority of cases - are only run couple of times a week at most.

the real reason why wow became as popular as it did? was because it was
1. easier than everything else on the market and
2. 2. didn't require group for VAST majority of the content. it was at the time the only accessible mmo, where people could play with other people, without being forced into playing ONLY with other people.

Linaleah wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Yea, no.

Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.

Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.

The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.

Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards

Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.

So why does ZOS make DLC vet dungeons, vTrials, vMa, vDSA etc? It's not like they are completely against the idea of making hard content. It's just the last few iterations of it have been 12 man.

The general rule of thumb nowadays is an easy mode overland map + a hard trial or dungeon or similar per DLC. I see no reason why this formula cannot be swapped around. Give us a hard overland map with an easy mode dungeon for the casuals

ArchMikem

because all of those trials dungeons etc - come in normal mode. your swap around idea would ONLy work if that zone had hard and normal modes available

Well duhhh

except this doesn't seems to be what OP and others like them want. they want "difficult inaccessible" content for most people. no "easy" mode. and when they say difficult, they really mean "twitchy" and what they actualy want is special rewards they can show off becasue its the only way they can feel good - by feeling superior to "carebears" in a video game.

this funny thing about grouping is that even people who like to play in a group - don't really like being forced to group. coordinating schedules is a pain. you cannot just expect people to be available at a drop of a hat AND want to do the same content you want to do. this is why trials typically get scheduled well in advance, AFTER figuring out who has what availability to come up with a timeslot that is workable and in vast majority of cases - are only run couple of times a week at most.

the real reason why wow became as popular as it did? was because it was
1. easier than everything else on the market and
2. 2. didn't require group for VAST majority of the content. it was at the time the only accessible mmo, where people could play with other people, without being forced into playing ONLY with other people.

Well I have the impression most people just want a difficulty available they personally like to play in, not force it upon others...

#BringOldCraglornBackScaledToCP160AndRemovedGatedContent