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Soul Assault needs counterplay
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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Nahh I still liked the nerfed heavy.Wraith doesn't hurt that much especially on stamplar I still have a high uptime on ravager with the 200 weapon damage lost isn't that big.Most builds can't really make use of agility. The Constitution nerf sucks but I only use it for the bit of extra magic sustain more purge,The heavy attack and extra healing is what I like most you can land more DW heavy than say someone using a Destro staff.Wait I didn't know I couldn't dodge roll in heavy armor anymoreWaffennacht wrote: ».
Yea I run shuffle on my stamblade,stamplar when in medium my stamplar also have purge which helps a lot.Waffennacht wrote: »
They also hurts meduim just as bad if not more since they have less healing and health in general.Waffennacht wrote: »Soul assault Op and hard counter to medium builds,Their no hard counters to heavy or light builds.So why is their one for a medium build their shouldn't be hard counters in this game.
Anything that circumvents mitigation is a hard counter to heavy imo (bleed, oblivion damage)
I can't help but feel soul assault is dangerous, but far less common than Leap.
I've been running medium a while now, and each time I get Souled I think, "yeap, that's what happens when I'm out in the open" I just can't get too worked up over it
Leap hits hard but with how buggy leap is at time its not that bad.My issue with soul assault is that as a Meduim build their nothing I can do about it when I'm not on my NB. I lost a large chunk of my stam and still took a good chunk of damage,plus I hate snares so much they make me want to throw stuff when you constantly cant move because of multiple snares.
My play has improved tremendously once I started treating buffs and debuffs as important as gear selection, snare removal is completely necessary if you're not permatank.
A successful build I'm currently using is Fortified Brass medium + Bone Pirate + monster set of choice. I only have x5 brass on my DW man bar. You definitely notice the difference in survivability with Brass up.
This added defense while on the offense allows you to maintain a significant amount of pressure against other DMG specs, usually forcing them to break SA.
And I've discovered the added mitigation means I'm not forced to heal as often giving me better resource control than when I had a more offensive oriented set.
Because brass gives so much pure mitigation I go with an offensive monster set (over say TK or Spawn)
I sit at 3k wpn DMG unbuffed and very easily reach 4k (brutality and wpn glyph)
I have I think 30k resistance on my DW bar and 2k impen (some well-fitted and two just wrong traits working on getting crystals)
As I'm DW I also run Quick Cloak for expedition (very important buff) synergy with skoria, and a massive 25% against Sub Assault, Leap, EoTs, DboS, Jabs, Caltrops, and meteor (most common offenders)
So even though I'm medium, I'm extremely difficult to kill
Your build is pretty much a heavy build wearing medium armor.Which takes the fun out of medium armor and would just be better off running heavy.Personally I say Quick cloak is helping your survivablity more than brass.I love quick cloak its so good especially against magic builds alot of their damage is AOE.
I think this only really works on stamplar which isn't a bad thing it plays to stamplar strengths.Its not a universal fix to how bad medium is but it helps on certain classes.This setup on a 2h and bow stamdk would get melted by a light armor magblade,sorc or warden.
@KingJ you mean the prenerfed heavy armor, back when Constitution was better and the wpn DMG. You'll be very hard pressed to get the resource management and wpn DMG outta heavy now. You end up sacrificing more to get to the same spot via heavy. Keep in mind, because you're medium you also get dodge roll where heavy can't
Quick + Brass is pretty solid, just running quick won't do it, I've tried.
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Heavy plus Quick cloak is just dumb strong.
I'm gonna have to see if I can fit it and test... Bars get full so quick now-a-days0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Have fun my ESO pockets are empty because of me testing new sets combinations.Waffennacht wrote: »
Nahh I still liked the nerfed heavy.Wraith doesn't hurt that much especially on stamplar I still have a high uptime on ravager with the 200 weapon damage lost isn't that big.Most builds can't really make use of agility. The Constitution nerf sucks but I only use it for the bit of extra magic sustain more purge,The heavy attack and extra healing is what I like most you can land more DW heavy than say someone using a Destro staff.Wait I didn't know I couldn't dodge roll in heavy armor anymoreWaffennacht wrote: ».
Yea I run shuffle on my stamblade,stamplar when in medium my stamplar also have purge which helps a lot.Waffennacht wrote: »
They also hurts meduim just as bad if not more since they have less healing and health in general.Waffennacht wrote: »Soul assault Op and hard counter to medium builds,Their no hard counters to heavy or light builds.So why is their one for a medium build their shouldn't be hard counters in this game.
Anything that circumvents mitigation is a hard counter to heavy imo (bleed, oblivion damage)
I can't help but feel soul assault is dangerous, but far less common than Leap.
I've been running medium a while now, and each time I get Souled I think, "yeap, that's what happens when I'm out in the open" I just can't get too worked up over it
Leap hits hard but with how buggy leap is at time its not that bad.My issue with soul assault is that as a Meduim build their nothing I can do about it when I'm not on my NB. I lost a large chunk of my stam and still took a good chunk of damage,plus I hate snares so much they make me want to throw stuff when you constantly cant move because of multiple snares.
My play has improved tremendously once I started treating buffs and debuffs as important as gear selection, snare removal is completely necessary if you're not permatank.
A successful build I'm currently using is Fortified Brass medium + Bone Pirate + monster set of choice. I only have x5 brass on my DW man bar. You definitely notice the difference in survivability with Brass up.
This added defense while on the offense allows you to maintain a significant amount of pressure against other DMG specs, usually forcing them to break SA.
And I've discovered the added mitigation means I'm not forced to heal as often giving me better resource control than when I had a more offensive oriented set.
Because brass gives so much pure mitigation I go with an offensive monster set (over say TK or Spawn)
I sit at 3k wpn DMG unbuffed and very easily reach 4k (brutality and wpn glyph)
I have I think 30k resistance on my DW bar and 2k impen (some well-fitted and two just wrong traits working on getting crystals)
As I'm DW I also run Quick Cloak for expedition (very important buff) synergy with skoria, and a massive 25% against Sub Assault, Leap, EoTs, DboS, Jabs, Caltrops, and meteor (most common offenders)
So even though I'm medium, I'm extremely difficult to kill
Your build is pretty much a heavy build wearing medium armor.Which takes the fun out of medium armor and would just be better off running heavy.Personally I say Quick cloak is helping your survivablity more than brass.I love quick cloak its so good especially against magic builds alot of their damage is AOE.
I think this only really works on stamplar which isn't a bad thing it plays to stamplar strengths.Its not a universal fix to how bad medium is but it helps on certain classes.This setup on a 2h and bow stamdk would get melted by a light armor magblade,sorc or warden.
@KingJ you mean the prenerfed heavy armor, back when Constitution was better and the wpn DMG. You'll be very hard pressed to get the resource management and wpn DMG outta heavy now. You end up sacrificing more to get to the same spot via heavy. Keep in mind, because you're medium you also get dodge roll where heavy can't
Quick + Brass is pretty solid, just running quick won't do it, I've tried. .
Heavy plus Quick cloak is just dumb strong.
I'm gonna have to see if I can fit it and test... Bars get full so quick now-a-days
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »"Medium armor can sacrifice their damage and wear a tank set to get half the survivability of a light armor glass cannon build with 15k dmg shields"
That logic is flawless, what would we do without you. ZOS should hire you to balance their game @TheDoomsdayMonster .
@DDuke the equivalent would be... 50k mag and 3k spell damage with 2k Regen. Keep in mind magicka spells are also approximately 40% (estimated) more expensive than stamina abilities.
I don't think many mag builds get those stats. The shields of course make up for this deficit.
The available sets for Stam/medium allow for far more stat play.
I'm going to finish my heavy build tonight according to a bud, something like 5k wpn DMG. We'll compare the two and get a good feel for if the medium is worth it
50k magicka & 3k spell dmg to what, match the damage?
On my magicka sorc I'd have 53 964 magicka & 3161 spell dmg (with self buffs only) & I'd have a combined tooltip of 12 027 on Crushing Shock (with Asylum destro for some extra oomph), Curse gets a 2x 17 839 tooltip.
That's comparable in terms of damage to my melee stamblade (34 754 stam 4779 weapon dmg with self buffs only) which has 13 113 tooltip on its spammable (Surprise Attack).
A build wearing a defensive shouldn't be able to even get close to that, unless you wear something like Kena (which in turn means no Selene).Edited by DDuke on November 15, 2017 11:39PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »"Medium armor can sacrifice their damage and wear a tank set to get half the survivability of a light armor glass cannon build with 15k dmg shields"
That logic is flawless, what would we do without you. ZOS should hire you to balance their game @TheDoomsdayMonster .
@DDuke the equivalent would be... 50k mag and 3k spell damage with 2k Regen. Keep in mind magicka spells are also approximately 40% (estimated) more expensive than stamina abilities.
I don't think many mag builds get those stats. The shields of course make up for this deficit.
The available sets for Stam/medium allow for far more stat play.
I'm going to finish my heavy build tonight according to a bud, something like 5k wpn DMG. We'll compare the two and get a good feel for if the medium is worth it
50k magicka & 3k spell dmg to what, match the damage?
On my magicka sorc I'd have 53 964 magicka & 3161 spell dmg (with self buffs only) & I'd have a combined tooltip of 12 027 on Crushing Shock (with Asylum destro for some extra oomph), Curse gets a 2x 17 839 tooltip.
That's comparable in terms of damage to my melee stamblade (34 754 stam 4779 weapon dmg with self buffs only) which has 13 113 tooltip on its spammable (Surprise Attack).
A build wearing a defensive set won't even get close to that, unless you wear something like Kena (which means no Selene).
And your Regen on that mag monster?!
I was gonna guess 16k curse before I read you posted it lol.
Then I'd have to ask, how many abilities do you get access to? If you're running a pet, inner, and bound I'm gonna say you can be hard countered yourself (my point being you gave up ALOT for those stats)0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭
Vampires worship me...
I wear the dedicated Vampire Lord gear...
I am the Vampire Lord...
Get down on your knees and bow to me wretch!!!!
;,,,,;Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »"Medium armor can sacrifice their damage and wear a tank set to get half the survivability of a light armor glass cannon build with 15k dmg shields"
That logic is flawless, what would we do without you. ZOS should hire you to balance their game @TheDoomsdayMonster .
@DDuke the equivalent would be... 50k mag and 3k spell damage with 2k Regen. Keep in mind magicka spells are also approximately 40% (estimated) more expensive than stamina abilities.
I don't think many mag builds get those stats. The shields of course make up for this deficit.
The available sets for Stam/medium allow for far more stat play.
I'm going to finish my heavy build tonight according to a bud, something like 5k wpn DMG. We'll compare the two and get a good feel for if the medium is worth it
50k magicka & 3k spell dmg to what, match the damage?
On my magicka sorc I'd have 53 964 magicka & 3161 spell dmg (with self buffs only) & I'd have a combined tooltip of 12 027 on Crushing Shock (with Asylum destro for some extra oomph), Curse gets a 2x 17 839 tooltip.
That's comparable in terms of damage to my melee stamblade (34 754 stam 4779 weapon dmg with self buffs only) which has 13 113 tooltip on its spammable (Surprise Attack).
A build wearing a defensive set won't even get close to that, unless you wear something like Kena (which means no Selene).
And your Regen on that mag monster?!
I was gonna guess 16k curse before I read you posted it lol.
Then I'd have to ask, how many abilities do you get access to? If you're running a pet, inner, and bound I'm gonna say you can be hard countered yourself (my point being you gave up ALOT for those stats)
It's with pet & inner light, but no bound aegis. Just good ol' 3x grace 5x necro 2x any monster set with magicka, with Asylum destro & Asylum resto cost reduction/minor berserk/emergency heal machine on off bar.
Gets 1441 regen with self buffs, not that regen really matters when we talk about full dmg builds.
My melee stamblade only has 1474 buffed regen as well - when you're comfortable enough with your character, regen just becomes a matter of "do I want to heavy attack weave or light attack weave a lot".
I still have easier time with regen on my melee stamblade than my 2,5k regen bowblade with Marksman lol
You can run such a setup with 27 432 tooltip Ice Comets combo'd with that Curse Proc+Rune Cage (all buffed by 8% thanks to Concussed from Asylum Crushing Shocks) btwEdited by DDuke on November 16, 2017 12:04AM1 -
BroanBeast1215✭✭✭
No need, I just have to wait a few more post ITT for you to contradict yourselfTheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »BroanBeast1215 wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Anyway to get back to the discussion on Soul Assault, I still contend that it is fine as is...
Yes, the ability does excellent damage...
Yes, the ability snares its target...
Yes, the ability makes its user immune to CC...
But look at its negatives:
It can be ended by breaking LoS (as a result it is sometimes wasted in areas like the Towers on a Resource or in area's where there are lots of obstructions present to break LoS with)...
Cloak can break it after 2 secs...
The user is completely exposed for the duration of the channel...
The user is unable to do anything else but channel the ability for its duration...
The fact of the matter (as far as I can see) is that it only really excels when used at range in an open area where the target cant readily break LoS or in a situation where you are point blank on an already weakened opponent...
If you are properly built, you should have some method of withstanding the channel and retaliating on the Soul Assault user...
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I have completely powered through Soul Assault (a number of times) without attempting to defend myself one bit and was able to kill the user (Devouring Swarm+Sweeps will overpower SA on a proper build every single time)...
That's just my opinion though...
View it as you will...
well, you're a scrublord so your opinion is moot
You just cant stand the truth...
Adapt to dealing with SA or die...
Cheers!
Btw, feel free to counter my above points or shut your mouth...
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »"Medium armor can sacrifice their damage and wear a tank set to get half the survivability of a light armor glass cannon build with 15k dmg shields"
That logic is flawless, what would we do without you. ZOS should hire you to balance their game @TheDoomsdayMonster .
@DDuke the equivalent would be... 50k mag and 3k spell damage with 2k Regen. Keep in mind magicka spells are also approximately 40% (estimated) more expensive than stamina abilities.
I don't think many mag builds get those stats. The shields of course make up for this deficit.
The available sets for Stam/medium allow for far more stat play.
I'm going to finish my heavy build tonight according to a bud, something like 5k wpn DMG. We'll compare the two and get a good feel for if the medium is worth it
50k magicka & 3k spell dmg to what, match the damage?
On my magicka sorc I'd have 53 964 magicka & 3161 spell dmg (with self buffs only) & I'd have a combined tooltip of 12 027 on Crushing Shock (with Asylum destro for some extra oomph), Curse gets a 2x 17 839 tooltip.
That's comparable in terms of damage to my melee stamblade (34 754 stam 4779 weapon dmg with self buffs only) which has 13 113 tooltip on its spammable (Surprise Attack).
A build wearing a defensive set won't even get close to that, unless you wear something like Kena (which means no Selene).
And your Regen on that mag monster?!
I was gonna guess 16k curse before I read you posted it lol.
Then I'd have to ask, how many abilities do you get access to? If you're running a pet, inner, and bound I'm gonna say you can be hard countered yourself (my point being you gave up ALOT for those stats)
It's with pet & inner light, but no bound aegis. Just good ol' 3x grace 5x necro 2x any monster set with magicka, with Asylum destro & Asylum resto cost reduction/minor berserk/emergency heal machine on off bar.
Gets 1441 regen with self buffs, not that regen really matters when we talk about full dmg builds.
You can run such a setup with 27 432 tooltip Ice Comets combo'd with that Curse Proc+Rune Cage (all buffed by 8% thanks to Concussed from Asylum Crushing Shocks) btw
I bet it's a love hate relationship with you in BGs, sure you guys win but you steal all the kills! But I wouldn't pug with it.0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭BroanBeast1215 wrote: »
No need, I just have to wait a few more post ITT for you to contradict yourselfTheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »BroanBeast1215 wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Anyway to get back to the discussion on Soul Assault, I still contend that it is fine as is...
Yes, the ability does excellent damage...
Yes, the ability snares its target...
Yes, the ability makes its user immune to CC...
But look at its negatives:
It can be ended by breaking LoS (as a result it is sometimes wasted in areas like the Towers on a Resource or in area's where there are lots of obstructions present to break LoS with)...
Cloak can break it after 2 secs...
The user is completely exposed for the duration of the channel...
The user is unable to do anything else but channel the ability for its duration...
The fact of the matter (as far as I can see) is that it only really excels when used at range in an open area where the target cant readily break LoS or in a situation where you are point blank on an already weakened opponent...
If you are properly built, you should have some method of withstanding the channel and retaliating on the Soul Assault user...
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I have completely powered through Soul Assault (a number of times) without attempting to defend myself one bit and was able to kill the user (Devouring Swarm+Sweeps will overpower SA on a proper build every single time)...
That's just my opinion though...
View it as you will...
well, you're a scrublord so your opinion is moot
You just cant stand the truth...
Adapt to dealing with SA or die...
Cheers!
Btw, feel free to counter my above points or shut your mouth...
Concession accepted...
Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.
And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.
Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.
It doesnt matter how many people u are fighting or whether u eventually win or lose. Thats not the point. The point is the available defenses you have and whether u can fight back. If every single defense you have is hard countered then there is obviously something wrong with the design cause there is nothing you can do. Thats not how u promote a skillful game. Exactly, that defense could be as little as a cc. You cant even do that little. SA even gives cc immunity to the caster.
Blocking isnt as bad if you build for recovery? I think you may wanna go and learn how recovery and blocking works before you make such comments.
I'm talking about sa in a 1v1 fight. Nothing should be immune to everything and they should have counters. In a 1vx you against solid opponents, you should have more things countered.
maybe i phrased the blocking part poorly . If you have good stamina recovery, you're not screwed by having the stamina loss from blocking the attack. I didn't think it was that hard to extrapolate that though.
Maybe sa shouldn't snare you so you can take cover, but its already almost trash. That would probably kill it.
Again. You have this dumb idea in ur mind that when u are in a 1vX scenario you shouldnt be able to do anything and die. That is the most stupid thing ive ever heard.
When you get into a 1vX scenario you already have the disadvantage of being outnumbered. You take more dmg, they can heal each other etc. You already have more things countered and you need to use ur skill and outplay them if u want to survive. Just because you are in a disadvantage when outnumbered it doesnt mean that mechanics should start screwing you by ignoring everything u do. This beats the entire point of using ur skill in fights
Exactly, nothing should be immune to everything and there should be counters to everything. SA is immune to everything and hardcounters every single defensive mechanic medium armor builds have.
No, high regen does not counter SA. You do not regen stamina while blocking. For 4+ seconds your entire sustain gets shut down. SA has 7-8 ticks. That means 7-8 ticks of 2-2.5k stamina cost. Do the math. The counter to SA as is take 10k dmg and drain 50%+ of ur stamina while u are a sitting duck for anyone to give u a beating as well on a build that is supposed to be mobile and dodging attacks. Can you even comprehend how stupid that sounds? And no, one more regen glyph wont help after SA ends assuming u survived it.
No, SA is also stupid in 1v1. In fact i also prefer SA over any other ult against shield based builds as well. Thats how good it is. And no its not trash. Just because you cant play with SA it doesnt mean its trash. I play with SA. The ability is beyond stupid. One good combo with SA can kill anyone in medium without them being able to do anything else than just pray for a tree next to them or a lucky rally burst heal.Edited by pieratsos on November 16, 2017 12:51PM3 -
Killset✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »You know whats funny is that jabs are undodgable, so the reason why your jabs miss is cause you cant even aim your camera lmao
@Thedoomsdaymonster
Puncturing Sweeps are undodgable!??
No they are not...
Edit: you got me questioning myself now; they sure dont seem to be undodgable...
Gonna test this out tomorrow to be certain...
Jabs/Sweeps are an AOE, no AOE abilities are dodgeable, whether by roll dodging or from Evasion buffs like Mirage or Shuffle. If it's dodgeable (which it isn't, at least on PC) it's a bug.
Then maybe it is bugged, because I am almost certain that Sweeps missing against a Shuffle user is a common occurance...
You are wrong on every level. Another forum warrior rationalizing his/her broken I win crutch. Except you couldn’t even do that right.
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Killset✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Once again the cry babies start on the nerfs.
They never go with "buff this for counter play" its always the tears and the nerf, and zos listens. These are the people who have made ESO pvp a zergging pug fest.
Yes I'm such a cry baby because all it requires to win a fight against a medium armor player is to activate your Soul Assault. God forbid we make it so some intelligence is required to be victorious.
How do you think Magicka builds feel about Shuffle?
Its frustrating as hell gap closing a Shuffle user (and them passively dodging it and its CC), and unloading Puncturing Sweeps on them only to have atleast 2 of the Sweeps fail to connect...
In the mean while, every single attack the Shuffle user uses against you lands flush...
The way I see it, we use Soul Assault to counter the cheesy gameplay Medium Armor users bring to the table...
Afterall, the best way to counter cheese is with cheese of your own...
Since when does shuffle kill magicka users? Shuffle and roll dodge are the main defensive mechanics of medium armor. Just because u find those mechanics frustrating for whatever reason even tho there are a million different things that go through dodge, it doesnt mean that you should have an "i win" button against them.
If you want to equate soul assault with anything then imagine an ability that kills ur templar in 3 seconds without u being able to do anything. And then you come here to talk about cheese.
Its truly astonishing how clueless some of you people are.
Its not my fault that these medium armor builds are so heavily glass cannon...
You know the type; you see them everywhere:
4000+ weapon damage, barely have 20k health (and sometimes sub 20k health) even with Battle Spirit, all the while expecting to get away with being pure glass canon solely with Shuffle allowing them to passively ignore incoming damage...
If they would character build with more defense in mind they wouldnt be melted so easily by attacks such as Soul Assault...
Its a learn to build issue in all honestly...
Oh and there will never be an attack that kills my Templar in 3 seconds without me being able to do anything about it...why?
Because I built my character with the ability to withstand damage...
Some of the medium armor builds here need to learn how to do that as well...
There is no ability that kills ur templar in 3 seconds without u being able to do anything because there is no ability that completely shuts down every available defense you have, not because u know how to make a build.
You somehow have this dumb idea that they just want to play glass cannon builds and still survive everything. And thats because you dont know how the ability works and how the defensive mechanics interact with the ability. Soul assault hard counters every single available mechanic medium armor builds have. You are confusing your lack of knowledge with people being entitled to everything.
I could go on and try to explain you every single mechanic and how soul assault interacts with it but im not interested in writing an essay. There are multiple threads about soul assault with actual numbers for a bunch of different scenarios. Find them and u can see on ur own. The short answer is that SA does 10k+ dmg through block and drains more than half of their stamina pool while they are sitting ducks from the snare and regen being stopped. And no thats not on glass cannon builds.
And no im not just another biased dodge roll build refusing to adapt. Im the one using SA.
Different types of abilities were designed with different mechanics and counters to keep them in check and promote skillful play offensively and defensively. To make it a little more simple for you to understand. If someone is mindlessly casting SA, you should be able to bash his head off.
Don't presume to know what I know; you don't know a d@m thing about me...
Your assumptions in this post are pure ignorance on your part as pertains to my knowledge base...
I know exactly how Soul Assault works; I exactly what it does...
There are ways to adapt to Soul Assault from a Medium Armor standpoint and no I wont tell you anything; I wont think for you...
Workable adaptations are possible...if one is willing to think outside the box.
Aren’t you the one that thought you could shuffle Jabs? These cryptic “workable adaptations” and “think outside the box“ sayings are proof you pretty much have no idea what you are talking about and are terrified your crutch might get taken away. I play both mag and stam and I couldn’t even begin to defend SA in good conscience. Make it bashable again.. problem solved!
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TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »You know whats funny is that jabs are undodgable, so the reason why your jabs miss is cause you cant even aim your camera lmao
@Thedoomsdaymonster
Puncturing Sweeps are undodgable!??
No they are not...
Edit: you got me questioning myself now; they sure dont seem to be undodgable...
Gonna test this out tomorrow to be certain...
Jabs/Sweeps are an AOE, no AOE abilities are dodgeable, whether by roll dodging or from Evasion buffs like Mirage or Shuffle. If it's dodgeable (which it isn't, at least on PC) it's a bug.
Then maybe it is bugged, because I am almost certain that Sweeps missing against a Shuffle user is a common occurance...
You are wrong on every level. Another forum warrior rationalizing his/her broken I win crutch. Except you couldn’t even do that right.
Since I was wrong about Sweeps, all my other points are invalid?
Gtfo of here with this garbage of yours...Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Once again the cry babies start on the nerfs.
They never go with "buff this for counter play" its always the tears and the nerf, and zos listens. These are the people who have made ESO pvp a zergging pug fest.
Yes I'm such a cry baby because all it requires to win a fight against a medium armor player is to activate your Soul Assault. God forbid we make it so some intelligence is required to be victorious.
How do you think Magicka builds feel about Shuffle?
Its frustrating as hell gap closing a Shuffle user (and them passively dodging it and its CC), and unloading Puncturing Sweeps on them only to have atleast 2 of the Sweeps fail to connect...
In the mean while, every single attack the Shuffle user uses against you lands flush...
The way I see it, we use Soul Assault to counter the cheesy gameplay Medium Armor users bring to the table...
Afterall, the best way to counter cheese is with cheese of your own...
Since when does shuffle kill magicka users? Shuffle and roll dodge are the main defensive mechanics of medium armor. Just because u find those mechanics frustrating for whatever reason even tho there are a million different things that go through dodge, it doesnt mean that you should have an "i win" button against them.
If you want to equate soul assault with anything then imagine an ability that kills ur templar in 3 seconds without u being able to do anything. And then you come here to talk about cheese.
Its truly astonishing how clueless some of you people are.
Its not my fault that these medium armor builds are so heavily glass cannon...
You know the type; you see them everywhere:
4000+ weapon damage, barely have 20k health (and sometimes sub 20k health) even with Battle Spirit, all the while expecting to get away with being pure glass canon solely with Shuffle allowing them to passively ignore incoming damage...
If they would character build with more defense in mind they wouldnt be melted so easily by attacks such as Soul Assault...
Its a learn to build issue in all honestly...
Oh and there will never be an attack that kills my Templar in 3 seconds without me being able to do anything about it...why?
Because I built my character with the ability to withstand damage...
Some of the medium armor builds here need to learn how to do that as well...
There is no ability that kills ur templar in 3 seconds without u being able to do anything because there is no ability that completely shuts down every available defense you have, not because u know how to make a build.
You somehow have this dumb idea that they just want to play glass cannon builds and still survive everything. And thats because you dont know how the ability works and how the defensive mechanics interact with the ability. Soul assault hard counters every single available mechanic medium armor builds have. You are confusing your lack of knowledge with people being entitled to everything.
I could go on and try to explain you every single mechanic and how soul assault interacts with it but im not interested in writing an essay. There are multiple threads about soul assault with actual numbers for a bunch of different scenarios. Find them and u can see on ur own. The short answer is that SA does 10k+ dmg through block and drains more than half of their stamina pool while they are sitting ducks from the snare and regen being stopped. And no thats not on glass cannon builds.
And no im not just another biased dodge roll build refusing to adapt. Im the one using SA.
Different types of abilities were designed with different mechanics and counters to keep them in check and promote skillful play offensively and defensively. To make it a little more simple for you to understand. If someone is mindlessly casting SA, you should be able to bash his head off.
Don't presume to know what I know; you don't know a d@m thing about me...
Your assumptions in this post are pure ignorance on your part as pertains to my knowledge base...
I know exactly how Soul Assault works; I exactly what it does...
There are ways to adapt to Soul Assault from a Medium Armor standpoint and no I wont tell you anything; I wont think for you...
Workable adaptations are possible...if one is willing to think outside the box.
Aren’t you the one that thought you could shuffle Jabs? These cryptic “workable adaptations” and “think outside the box“ sayings are proof you pretty much have no idea what you are talking about and are terrified your crutch might get taken away. I play both mag and stam and I couldn’t even begin to defend SA in good conscience. Make it bashable again.. problem solved!
Oh I know exactly what I'm talking about as pertains SA and it's clear you are cherry picking something that's truly off topic as you can't debate as pertains S.A. itself...Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.
And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.
Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.
It doesnt matter how many people u are fighting or whether u eventually win or lose. Thats not the point. The point is the available defenses you have and whether u can fight back. If every single defense you have is hard countered then there is obviously something wrong with the design cause there is nothing you can do. Thats not how u promote a skillful game. Exactly, that defense could be as little as a cc. You cant even do that little. SA even gives cc immunity to the caster.
Blocking isnt as bad if you build for recovery? I think you may wanna go and learn how recovery and blocking works before you make such comments.
I'm talking about sa in a 1v1 fight. Nothing should be immune to everything and they should have counters. In a 1vx you against solid opponents, you should have more things countered.
maybe i phrased the blocking part poorly . If you have good stamina recovery, you're not screwed by having the stamina loss from blocking the attack. I didn't think it was that hard to extrapolate that though.
Maybe sa shouldn't snare you so you can take cover, but its already almost trash. That would probably kill it.
Again. You have this dumb idea in ur mind that when u are in a 1vX scenario you shouldnt be able to do anything and die. That is the most stupid thing ive ever heard.
When you get into a 1vX scenario you already have the disadvantage of being outnumbered. You take more dmg, they can heal each other etc. You already have more things countered and you need to use ur skill and outplay them if u want to survive. Just because you are in a disadvantage when outnumbered it doesnt mean that mechanics should start screwing you by ignoring everything u do. This beats the entire point of using ur skill in fights
Exactly, nothing should be immune to everything and there should be counters to everything. SA is immune to everything and hardcounters every single defensive mechanic medium armor builds have.
No, high regen does not counter SA. You do not regen stamina while blocking. For 4+ seconds your entire sustain gets shut down. SA has 7-8 ticks. That means 7-8 ticks of 2-2.5k stamina cost. Do the math. The counter to SA as is take 10k dmg and drain 50%+ of ur stamina while u are a sitting duck for anyone to give u a beating as well on a build that is supposed to be mobile and dodging attacks. Can you even comprehend how stupid that sounds? And no, one more regen glyph wont help after SA ends assuming u survived it.
No, SA is also stupid in 1v1. In fact i also prefer SA over any other ult against shield based builds as well. Thats how good it is. And no its not trash. Just because you cant play with SA it doesnt mean its trash. I play with SA. The ability is beyond stupid. One good combo with SA can kill anyone in medium without them being able to do anything else than just pray for a tree next to them or a lucky rally burst heal.
I haven't died to sa 1v1 in a long time. You can hit harder with an unblockable AOE dot for more damage while being able to be defensive, offensive, or supportive.
Sure you should be able to use your skill and overcome players who suck. Got plenty of videos of me doing that. You put any build that didn't permablock under fire from 2 equally skilled players and they will need support or go full defense. Otherwise the players aren't equally skilled. Would you liked me to share some videos for you to look at of me overcoming SA vs 1 or more players? I'm sure i have some.
Regen won't do much for that first tick, but it might, after 6 seconds, be the difference in your vigor you need or spammable.
Please be civil, I'm not the on be having issues and am only trying to help.0 -
Killset✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »You know whats funny is that jabs are undodgable, so the reason why your jabs miss is cause you cant even aim your camera lmao
@Thedoomsdaymonster
Puncturing Sweeps are undodgable!??
No they are not...
Edit: you got me questioning myself now; they sure dont seem to be undodgable...
Gonna test this out tomorrow to be certain...
Jabs/Sweeps are an AOE, no AOE abilities are dodgeable, whether by roll dodging or from Evasion buffs like Mirage or Shuffle. If it's dodgeable (which it isn't, at least on PC) it's a bug.
Then maybe it is bugged, because I am almost certain that Sweeps missing against a Shuffle user is a common occurance...
You are wrong on every level. Another forum warrior rationalizing his/her broken I win crutch. Except you couldn’t even do that right.
Since I was wrong about Sweeps, all my other points are invalid?
Gtfo of here with this garbage of yours...
I’m imagining you in the splendor and regalia of a vampire lord. You are in a dark cave with nothing but the cries of your victims to keep you company. No... Wait... That’s just your mom yelling down into the basement that the meatloaf is ready... Time to put some pants on!
4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.
And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.
Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.
It doesnt matter how many people u are fighting or whether u eventually win or lose. Thats not the point. The point is the available defenses you have and whether u can fight back. If every single defense you have is hard countered then there is obviously something wrong with the design cause there is nothing you can do. Thats not how u promote a skillful game. Exactly, that defense could be as little as a cc. You cant even do that little. SA even gives cc immunity to the caster.
Blocking isnt as bad if you build for recovery? I think you may wanna go and learn how recovery and blocking works before you make such comments.
I'm talking about sa in a 1v1 fight. Nothing should be immune to everything and they should have counters. In a 1vx you against solid opponents, you should have more things countered.
maybe i phrased the blocking part poorly . If you have good stamina recovery, you're not screwed by having the stamina loss from blocking the attack. I didn't think it was that hard to extrapolate that though.
Maybe sa shouldn't snare you so you can take cover, but its already almost trash. That would probably kill it.
Again. You have this dumb idea in ur mind that when u are in a 1vX scenario you shouldnt be able to do anything and die. That is the most stupid thing ive ever heard.
When you get into a 1vX scenario you already have the disadvantage of being outnumbered. You take more dmg, they can heal each other etc. You already have more things countered and you need to use ur skill and outplay them if u want to survive. Just because you are in a disadvantage when outnumbered it doesnt mean that mechanics should start screwing you by ignoring everything u do. This beats the entire point of using ur skill in fights
Exactly, nothing should be immune to everything and there should be counters to everything. SA is immune to everything and hardcounters every single defensive mechanic medium armor builds have.
No, high regen does not counter SA. You do not regen stamina while blocking. For 4+ seconds your entire sustain gets shut down. SA has 7-8 ticks. That means 7-8 ticks of 2-2.5k stamina cost. Do the math. The counter to SA as is take 10k dmg and drain 50%+ of ur stamina while u are a sitting duck for anyone to give u a beating as well on a build that is supposed to be mobile and dodging attacks. Can you even comprehend how stupid that sounds? And no, one more regen glyph wont help after SA ends assuming u survived it.
No, SA is also stupid in 1v1. In fact i also prefer SA over any other ult against shield based builds as well. Thats how good it is. And no its not trash. Just because you cant play with SA it doesnt mean its trash. I play with SA. The ability is beyond stupid. One good combo with SA can kill anyone in medium without them being able to do anything else than just pray for a tree next to them or a lucky rally burst heal.
I haven't died to sa 1v1 in a long time. You can hit harder with an unblockable AOE dot for more damage while being able to be defensive, offensive, or supportive.
Sure you should be able to use your skill and overcome players who suck. Got plenty of videos of me doing that. You put any build that didn't permablock under fire from 2 equally skilled players and they will need support or go full defense. Otherwise the players aren't equally skilled. Would you liked me to share some videos for you to look at of me overcoming SA vs 1 or more players? I'm sure i have some.
Regen won't do much for that first tick, but it might, after 6 seconds, be the difference in your vigor you need or spammable.
Please be civil, I'm not the on be having issues and am only trying to help.
So If they are good then its ok to get screwed by mechanics because you would die anw? Wtf is this logic? Thats like saying why do people eat if they are going to be hungry later. It literally makes zero sense.
It doesnt matter if the people u are fighting are good or bad? The idea is always the same. You need to use ur skill to survive. Its skill vs numbers. Whether u survive or die is completely irrelevant. Its about the fight itself not about the outcome of the fight. The fight should decide the outcome. Not the logical outcome deciding the fight.
Seriously i cant even comprehend how you think. You are basically saying if u are in 1vX scenario against good players then you should die no matter what without even being able to fight back because thats the logical outcome of that fight. And that "good" or "bad" player is a very subjective word. When it comes to SA you just need not to be braindead to use it. It doesnt take skill to curse, fury, SA or vamp bane, purifying light, SA. You just need to know the basics of PVP and ur class.
The numbers i gave you are actual facts from a normal SA against a normal medium armor build. If you are playing a build with hard capped resistances then it kinda beats the entire point of playing a normal medium armor build. Name one ability in the game that does 10k dmg through block while draining more than half of ur stam and forces you to be a sitting duck. Just name one.
The fact that the counter that you suggested is to play a medium armor with hardcapped resistances is actually a prove of how stupid the ability is. Just think about for a second. The counter to SA as a medium armor build that relies on speed and high regen is to get more resistances than heavy and facetank the ability. Its actually really stupid when u think about it.
Yes one extra glyph of regen will be useful in the long run. Whether that is after 6 seconds or 10 seconds. The issue is that a normal medium armor build already low on hp and out of stamina wont survive 2 seconds. Let alone 10.
And this thing about getting more regen, more resistances, more of this more of that. I mean, u do realise that you give up dmg and healing for that right? That goes back to the heavy armor point. If i have to do all that then i may as well put on heavy. At that point u are already playing as a heavy armor build anw.
The funny thing is that no one gave a good reason why SA shouldnt be interruptable and apply a 70% snare. Or why it gives cc immunity to the caster. Or why it should even have 7-8 ticks of dmg basically making the block counter a no no for anyone without snb. I mean, the counter to medium already exists in the form of being undodgeable and doing stupid high dmg. Why the rest of the mechanics even exist?Edited by pieratsos on November 16, 2017 5:45PM2 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »You know whats funny is that jabs are undodgable, so the reason why your jabs miss is cause you cant even aim your camera lmao
@Thedoomsdaymonster
Puncturing Sweeps are undodgable!??
No they are not...
Edit: you got me questioning myself now; they sure dont seem to be undodgable...
Gonna test this out tomorrow to be certain...
Jabs/Sweeps are an AOE, no AOE abilities are dodgeable, whether by roll dodging or from Evasion buffs like Mirage or Shuffle. If it's dodgeable (which it isn't, at least on PC) it's a bug.
Then maybe it is bugged, because I am almost certain that Sweeps missing against a Shuffle user is a common occurance...
You are wrong on every level. Another forum warrior rationalizing his/her broken I win crutch. Except you couldn’t even do that right.
Since I was wrong about Sweeps, all my other points are invalid?
Gtfo of here with this garbage of yours...
I’m imagining you in the splendor and regalia of a vampire lord. You are in a dark cave with nothing but the cries of your victims to keep you company. No... Wait... That’s just your mom yelling down into the basement that the meatloaf is ready... Time to put some pants on!
You got the 1st part right...
But the cries keeping me company were your own...
;,,,,;
Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thats like saying why do people eat if they are going to be hungry later.
This is the funniest simile I've ever seen.Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Yes, when focused, the only real defense vs good players with good tactics is blocking, help from your group, and movement.
And right there you just explained everything thats wrong with SA. Cant move and blocking it does more harm than good. Its actually really funny how you guys "preach" about the counters of SA and then you literally contradict ur own arguments.
Im taking about 2 or more players on you at the same time. Not 1v1. So its safe to say you may need some external help of you're outnumbered or vs 2 players. Could be as little as a cc or as big as constant healing. Blocking it isn't that bad if you build for some recovery. Blocking the whole thing definitely will leave a dent. It's in no way unrecoverable.
It doesnt matter how many people u are fighting or whether u eventually win or lose. Thats not the point. The point is the available defenses you have and whether u can fight back. If every single defense you have is hard countered then there is obviously something wrong with the design cause there is nothing you can do. Thats not how u promote a skillful game. Exactly, that defense could be as little as a cc. You cant even do that little. SA even gives cc immunity to the caster.
Blocking isnt as bad if you build for recovery? I think you may wanna go and learn how recovery and blocking works before you make such comments.
I'm talking about sa in a 1v1 fight. Nothing should be immune to everything and they should have counters. In a 1vx you against solid opponents, you should have more things countered.
maybe i phrased the blocking part poorly . If you have good stamina recovery, you're not screwed by having the stamina loss from blocking the attack. I didn't think it was that hard to extrapolate that though.
Maybe sa shouldn't snare you so you can take cover, but its already almost trash. That would probably kill it.
Again. You have this dumb idea in ur mind that when u are in a 1vX scenario you shouldnt be able to do anything and die. That is the most stupid thing ive ever heard.
When you get into a 1vX scenario you already have the disadvantage of being outnumbered. You take more dmg, they can heal each other etc. You already have more things countered and you need to use ur skill and outplay them if u want to survive. Just because you are in a disadvantage when outnumbered it doesnt mean that mechanics should start screwing you by ignoring everything u do. This beats the entire point of using ur skill in fights
Exactly, nothing should be immune to everything and there should be counters to everything. SA is immune to everything and hardcounters every single defensive mechanic medium armor builds have.
No, high regen does not counter SA. You do not regen stamina while blocking. For 4+ seconds your entire sustain gets shut down. SA has 7-8 ticks. That means 7-8 ticks of 2-2.5k stamina cost. Do the math. The counter to SA as is take 10k dmg and drain 50%+ of ur stamina while u are a sitting duck for anyone to give u a beating as well on a build that is supposed to be mobile and dodging attacks. Can you even comprehend how stupid that sounds? And no, one more regen glyph wont help after SA ends assuming u survived it.
No, SA is also stupid in 1v1. In fact i also prefer SA over any other ult against shield based builds as well. Thats how good it is. And no its not trash. Just because you cant play with SA it doesnt mean its trash. I play with SA. The ability is beyond stupid. One good combo with SA can kill anyone in medium without them being able to do anything else than just pray for a tree next to them or a lucky rally burst heal.
I haven't died to sa 1v1 in a long time. You can hit harder with an unblockable AOE dot for more damage while being able to be defensive, offensive, or supportive.
Sure you should be able to use your skill and overcome players who suck. Got plenty of videos of me doing that. You put any build that didn't permablock under fire from 2 equally skilled players and they will need support or go full defense. Otherwise the players aren't equally skilled. Would you liked me to share some videos for you to look at of me overcoming SA vs 1 or more players? I'm sure i have some.
Regen won't do much for that first tick, but it might, after 6 seconds, be the difference in your vigor you need or spammable.
Please be civil, I'm not the on be having issues and am only trying to help.
So If they are good then its ok to get screwed by mechanics because you would die anw? Wtf is this logic? Thats like saying why do people eat if they are going to be hungry later. It literally makes zero sense.
It doesnt matter if the people u are fighting are good or bad? The idea is always the same. You need to use ur skill to survive. Its skill vs numbers. Whether u survive or die is completely irrelevant. Its about the fight itself not about the outcome of the fight. The fight should decide the outcome. Not the logical outcome deciding the fight.
Seriously i cant even comprehend how you think. You are basically saying if u are in 1vX scenario against good players then you should die no matter what without even being able to fight back because thats the logical outcome of that fight. And that "good" or "bad" player is a very subjective word. When it comes to SA you just need not to be braindead to use it. It doesnt take skill to curse, fury, SA or vamp bane, purifying light, SA. You just need to know the basics of PVP and ur class.
The numbers i gave you are actual facts from a normal SA against a normal medium armor build. If you are playing a build with hard capped resistances then it kinda beats the entire point of playing a normal medium armor build. Name one ability in the game that does 10k dmg through block while draining more than half of ur stam and forces you to be a sitting duck. Just name one.
The fact that the counter that you suggested is to play a medium armor with hardcapped resistances is actually a prove of how stupid the ability is. Just think about for a second. The counter to SA as a medium armor build that relies on speed and high regen is to get more resistances than heavy and facetank the ability. Its actually really stupid when u think about it.
Yes one extra glyph of regen will be useful in the long run. Whether that is after 6 seconds or 10 seconds. The issue is that a normal medium armor build already low on hp and out of stamina wont survive 2 seconds. Let alone 10.
And this thing about getting more regen, more resistances, more of this more of that. I mean, u do realise that you give up dmg and healing for that right? That goes back to the heavy armor point. If i have to do all that then i may as well put on heavy. At that point u are already playing as a heavy armor build anw.
The funny thing is that no one gave a good reason why SA shouldnt be interruptable and apply a 70% snare. Or why it gives cc immunity to the caster. Or why it should even have 7-8 ticks of dmg basically making the block counter a no no for anyone without snb. I mean, the counter to medium already exists in the form of being undodgeable and doing stupid high dmg. Why the rest of the mechanics even exist?
Those medium Passives tho. When you can easily stack 4k wpn dmg, that % based modifier becomes oh so very valuable.
When I hear ,"you may as well go heavy" I think of the heavy of old. Today the added health of heavy allows me to use lava foot stomp... Making stats practically the same. The added healing buff is a wash with the added wpn damage of medium. Constitution loses out to percentage based Stam Regen modifiers, evasion loses out to shuffle (allowing you to give up FM if you choose) resistance is identical if you so choose.
When I compare my two builds, the DMG is essentially the same, the resistance is better on the brass, the heals are very similar. The difference comes from cost reduction, Evasion, and selection.
I would go old heavy for sure. Right now, I see it only coming down to personal preference.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters- dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)
- mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block
- kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance
- healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally
- resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)
It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.
And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.
Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...
But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...
That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...
Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...
How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?
Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.
And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.
Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.
By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.
Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.
I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.
It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.
And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?
There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.
1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength
Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.
My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent
The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.
Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.
@DDuke
If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.
If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds
Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).
What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.
"slightly"(tm)So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.
Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.
But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.
If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.
Enjoy the game and have a good day.
Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).
A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.
Lmao.
My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.
Sure they do, if there's no other option (e.g. Marksman+Morag bow builds). Otherwise 5/1/1 always performs better for high damage builds, thanks to undaunted passive.Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.
Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.
Hey, as I said it's important to be accurate.
For the record: that's with zero CPs into +healing (as explained before, only a fool would put points there) and without Minor/Major Mending or Vitality as stamblades like me don't have feasible ways of accessing those buffs.
Major Brutality, Minor Berserk & weapon dmg enchant are the only buffs affecting the tooltip.As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol
Sorry, I don't get that. I thought we were comparing a maximum damage magicka build to a maximum damage stamina build - seems fairly straightforward to me.Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.
Sure, at that moment the high damage magicka build might not be doing any damage, but atleast the magicka build survives - unlike a medium build that just gets blown out with all the undodgeable [snip].
That's kind of the entire point.You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.
I said that magicka abilities scale better and that 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second.
Per second, that is 1:11 ratio in terms of efficiency when it comes to survivability.
Please point out where I'm wrong rather than repeating the same thing over & over again.
If you're going to say that "heals crit shields don't", then here's a quick calculation on how the scenario would look like if we added all available & feasible modifiers:
Crit Modifier 73%, Crit Chance 36.6%=an average 26.718% increase to heals.
Vigor tooltip 15 729/5->3145.8+26.718%=3986/second average healing
Alright, lets apply the negative modifiers:
3986-50%(Battle Spirit)=1993 health/second on average
1993-[44%(62 points Befoul Major Defile)+22%(62 points Befoul Minor Defile)]=678 health/second on average
...and compare it to the damage shields:
31 481(Hardened Ward)-50%(Battle Spirit)=15 740
29 046(Dampen Magic)-50%(Battle Spirit)=14 523
Are you sure you want to add these variables such as crits & buffs into the mix? They don't look good on medium armor.Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.
Yes, some basic aspects, such as: who the [snip] has bar space for a situational niche skill such as Blade Cloak, and what does it have to do with anything? By same logic I could bring up Mist Form, Cleanse or Dark Cloak and claim they have something to do with the subject (when they don't).Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.
Aha, as a matter of fact I do watch a lot of streams & youtube videos.
Perhaps you have a recent one to link where the player is playing a high damage stamina build (not a S&B tank build) and has no problems with survivability?I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.
Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.
Who's blaming any specific skill? I'm saying medium armor lacks in survivability if they don't run S&B, that's just pretty much a fact these days.
It wasn't always like that, you were able to use Vigor better back in the days when dodge roll practically guaranteed it would heal you back up. That's just not the reality of ESO anymore, and that way of playing & surviving hasn't really been replaced with any alternative besides S&B tanking.
Oh. By your comparing apples to oranges. Which was clear as mud the first time you posted it.
Saying 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second, as you did, is like saying wrecking blow does 1k damage led 1k stam but rendering slashes only does 20 damage per 1k stam.
Your comparing an instant to a dot and only taking into account 1 tick of that dot.
Anyone with rudimentary math knowledge would be able to confidently say that's BS. The comparison is completely flawed.
Didn't bother commenting in the rest since if this is the basis of your argument the rest doesn't matter. The comparison is so flawed it seems more intended to mislead others. I will give you the benefit of the doubt you did not design it to mislead others but was merely accidental.Edited by idk on November 16, 2017 7:42PM0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is that no one gave a good reason why SA shouldnt be interruptable and apply a 70% snare. Or why it gives cc immunity to the caster. Or why it should even have 7-8 ticks of dmg basically making the block counter a no no for anyone without snb. I mean, the counter to medium already exists in the form of being undodgeable and doing stupid high dmg. Why the rest of the mechanics even exist?
I'm pretty sure I touched on this, but I'll go over it again...
SA is fine as it due to the downsides of using the ability:
It can be broken by breaking LoS (which is maginified in area's where there are lots of twists and turns and/or structures to break LoS with)...
Cloak can break it after 2 seconds...
You are completely exposed for the duration of the channel; against a proper build, the user of SA can be killed easily by a strong counter attack during this time. Against a strong counter attack the user has only 2 options: hold the channel and die or cancel out of the channel and attempt to heal up before dying (thereby ending the channel prematurely and wasting a significant portion of its damage)...
You are unable to take any other action during the channel; this plays directly into the former point as you cant heal, dodge roll, block, or perform any other action to save yourself during the channelling of the ability...
IMHO, these downsides justify SA staying as is...
As for the power level of the ability, it should be strong; you have to save the world to acquire it afterall...
Edit: keep in mind that SA is a single target 3+ sec channel. In the grand scheme of things, there are abilities in this game that are potentially much more destructive than SA and simutaneously last a much longer time than SA does (and said abilities dont leave you exposed and incapable of performing other actions during their duration)...
SA isnt all that...
For example, much of the time (unless I'm 1v1) Devouring Swarm will net more damage and be more useful than SA will...Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on November 16, 2017 7:52PMUnyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
ezeepeezee✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters- dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)
- mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block
- kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance
- healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally
- resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)
It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.
And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.
Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...
But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...
That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...
Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...
How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?
Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.
And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.
Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.
By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.
Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.
I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.
It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.
And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?
There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.
1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength
Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.
My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent
The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.
Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.
@DDuke
If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.
If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds
Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).
What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.
"slightly"(tm)So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.
Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.
But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.
If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.
Enjoy the game and have a good day.
Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).
A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.
Lmao.
My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.
Sure they do, if there's no other option (e.g. Marksman+Morag bow builds). Otherwise 5/1/1 always performs better for high damage builds, thanks to undaunted passive.Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.
Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.
Hey, as I said it's important to be accurate.
For the record: that's with zero CPs into +healing (as explained before, only a fool would put points there) and without Minor/Major Mending or Vitality as stamblades like me don't have feasible ways of accessing those buffs.
Major Brutality, Minor Berserk & weapon dmg enchant are the only buffs affecting the tooltip.As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol
Sorry, I don't get that. I thought we were comparing a maximum damage magicka build to a maximum damage stamina build - seems fairly straightforward to me.Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.
Sure, at that moment the high damage magicka build might not be doing any damage, but atleast the magicka build survives - unlike a medium build that just gets blown out with all the undodgeable [snip].
That's kind of the entire point.You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.
I said that magicka abilities scale better and that 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second.
Per second, that is 1:11 ratio in terms of efficiency when it comes to survivability.
Please point out where I'm wrong rather than repeating the same thing over & over again.
If you're going to say that "heals crit shields don't", then here's a quick calculation on how the scenario would look like if we added all available & feasible modifiers:
Crit Modifier 73%, Crit Chance 36.6%=an average 26.718% increase to heals.
Vigor tooltip 15 729/5->3145.8+26.718%=3986/second average healing
Alright, lets apply the negative modifiers:
3986-50%(Battle Spirit)=1993 health/second on average
1993-[44%(62 points Befoul Major Defile)+22%(62 points Befoul Minor Defile)]=678 health/second on average
...and compare it to the damage shields:
31 481(Hardened Ward)-50%(Battle Spirit)=15 740
29 046(Dampen Magic)-50%(Battle Spirit)=14 523
Are you sure you want to add these variables such as crits & buffs into the mix? They don't look good on medium armor.Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.
Yes, some basic aspects, such as: who the [snip] has bar space for a situational niche skill such as Blade Cloak, and what does it have to do with anything? By same logic I could bring up Mist Form, Cleanse or Dark Cloak and claim they have something to do with the subject (when they don't).Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.
Aha, as a matter of fact I do watch a lot of streams & youtube videos.
Perhaps you have a recent one to link where the player is playing a high damage stamina build (not a S&B tank build) and has no problems with survivability?I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.
Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.
Who's blaming any specific skill? I'm saying medium armor lacks in survivability if they don't run S&B, that's just pretty much a fact these days.
It wasn't always like that, you were able to use Vigor better back in the days when dodge roll practically guaranteed it would heal you back up. That's just not the reality of ESO anymore, and that way of playing & surviving hasn't really been replaced with any alternative besides S&B tanking.
Oh. By your comparing apples to oranges. Which was clear as mud the first time you posted it.
Saying 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second, as you did, is like saying wrecking blow does 1k damage led 1k stam but rendering slashes only does 20 damage per 1k stam.
Your comparing an instant to a dot and only taking into account 1 tick of that dot.
Anyone with rudimentary math knowledge would be able to confidently say that's BS. The comparison is completely flawed.
Didn't bother commenting in the rest since if this is the basis of your argument the rest doesn't matter. The comparison is so flawed it seems more intended to mislead others. I will give you the benefit of the doubt you did not design it to mislead others but was merely accidental.
I think the disconnect is that you're not considering the timeframes in a frenetic PVP environment. In my opinion, it is in fact apt to make the comparison between the raw values. The shield can save you from an entire burst combo (and then some) in an instant, whereas if you vigor + roll or w/e, you're getting a very small heal in that first 1s of the cast. That makes a tremendous difference. Not to mention that all of the undodgeable damage will eat you up very quickly if you're just trying to vigor and roll.
I've been praying ZOS would see fit to give stamina/medium some kind of shielding for the several years I've been playing. Shields, as a mechanic in general, are ridiculous to me and I hope they are changed drastically.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ezeepeezee wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters- dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)
- mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block
- kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance
- healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally
- resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)
It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.
And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.
Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...
But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...
That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...
Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...
How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?
Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.
And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.
Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.
By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.
Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.
I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.
It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.
And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?
There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.
1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength
Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.
My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent
The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.
Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.
@DDuke
If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.
If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds
Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).
What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.
"slightly"(tm)So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.
Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.
But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.
If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.
Enjoy the game and have a good day.
Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).
A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.
Lmao.
My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.
Sure they do, if there's no other option (e.g. Marksman+Morag bow builds). Otherwise 5/1/1 always performs better for high damage builds, thanks to undaunted passive.Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.
Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.
Hey, as I said it's important to be accurate.
For the record: that's with zero CPs into +healing (as explained before, only a fool would put points there) and without Minor/Major Mending or Vitality as stamblades like me don't have feasible ways of accessing those buffs.
Major Brutality, Minor Berserk & weapon dmg enchant are the only buffs affecting the tooltip.As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol
Sorry, I don't get that. I thought we were comparing a maximum damage magicka build to a maximum damage stamina build - seems fairly straightforward to me.Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.
Sure, at that moment the high damage magicka build might not be doing any damage, but atleast the magicka build survives - unlike a medium build that just gets blown out with all the undodgeable [snip].
That's kind of the entire point.You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.
I said that magicka abilities scale better and that 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second.
Per second, that is 1:11 ratio in terms of efficiency when it comes to survivability.
Please point out where I'm wrong rather than repeating the same thing over & over again.
If you're going to say that "heals crit shields don't", then here's a quick calculation on how the scenario would look like if we added all available & feasible modifiers:
Crit Modifier 73%, Crit Chance 36.6%=an average 26.718% increase to heals.
Vigor tooltip 15 729/5->3145.8+26.718%=3986/second average healing
Alright, lets apply the negative modifiers:
3986-50%(Battle Spirit)=1993 health/second on average
1993-[44%(62 points Befoul Major Defile)+22%(62 points Befoul Minor Defile)]=678 health/second on average
...and compare it to the damage shields:
31 481(Hardened Ward)-50%(Battle Spirit)=15 740
29 046(Dampen Magic)-50%(Battle Spirit)=14 523
Are you sure you want to add these variables such as crits & buffs into the mix? They don't look good on medium armor.Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.
Yes, some basic aspects, such as: who the [snip] has bar space for a situational niche skill such as Blade Cloak, and what does it have to do with anything? By same logic I could bring up Mist Form, Cleanse or Dark Cloak and claim they have something to do with the subject (when they don't).Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.
Aha, as a matter of fact I do watch a lot of streams & youtube videos.
Perhaps you have a recent one to link where the player is playing a high damage stamina build (not a S&B tank build) and has no problems with survivability?I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.
Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.
Who's blaming any specific skill? I'm saying medium armor lacks in survivability if they don't run S&B, that's just pretty much a fact these days.
It wasn't always like that, you were able to use Vigor better back in the days when dodge roll practically guaranteed it would heal you back up. That's just not the reality of ESO anymore, and that way of playing & surviving hasn't really been replaced with any alternative besides S&B tanking.
Oh. By your comparing apples to oranges. Which was clear as mud the first time you posted it.
Saying 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second, as you did, is like saying wrecking blow does 1k damage led 1k stam but rendering slashes only does 20 damage per 1k stam.
Your comparing an instant to a dot and only taking into account 1 tick of that dot.
Anyone with rudimentary math knowledge would be able to confidently say that's BS. The comparison is completely flawed.
Didn't bother commenting in the rest since if this is the basis of your argument the rest doesn't matter. The comparison is so flawed it seems more intended to mislead others. I will give you the benefit of the doubt you did not design it to mislead others but was merely accidental.
I think the disconnect is that you're not considering the timeframes in a frenetic PVP environment. In my opinion, it is in fact apt to make the comparison between the raw values. The shield can save you from an entire burst combo (and then some) in an instant, whereas if you vigor + roll or w/e, you're getting a very small heal in that first 1s of the cast. That makes a tremendous difference. Not to mention that all of the undodgeable damage will eat you up very quickly if you're just trying to vigor and roll.
I've been praying ZOS would see fit to give stamina/medium some kind of shielding for the several years I've been playing. Shields, as a mechanic in general, are ridiculous to me and I hope they are changed drastically.
Exactly.
Medium armor used to have a primary defense that helped them survive like magicka builds & their shields: dodge roll.
These days however, it's Vigor(/Rally for 2H builds) that's the primary defense, and it's simply not good enough. There's no spammable defense either for stam builds, you just have to hope heal ticks every second outheal the incoming undodgeable damage, which is not realistic (one Curse crit deals more dmg than Vigor heals in 5 seconds).
If ZOS hadn't made dodge roll borderline useless, none of this would be a problem right now.Edited by DDuke on November 16, 2017 9:14PM4 -
BroanBeast1215✭✭✭ezeepeezee wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Why every threads about soul assault since Homestead eventually just moves to constant bickering between people so bad they cant kill anything with it and people not actually using build countered by it. It is pretty much simple.
Soul assault counters- dodge roll defense of medium by being undodgeable and by forcing you to block (cant block when dodging and vice versa)
- mobility of medium by applying huge snare and by forcing you to selfsnare yourself with block
- kiting capability of medium by applying huge snare and working from long distance
- healing capability of medium by dealing large amount of damage unhealable by simple vigor or too early use of rally
- resource sustain capability of medium by forcing you to block to both disable regen and drain resources (from blocking and healing)
It literally disables everything that means to be medium armor build for 4 seconds (2 seconds on NB). So no, if you cant kill people with it you are either bad or they are good enough that they could strip naked to bare first and survive fighting you for 4sec. Which, lets be real, is not that much difficult. Does not mean it should be happening. I am sure, plenty of shield (stack) users would change their playstyle and build to not die if there was ulti that disabled shields for 4sec. Same goes for all block users if they were unable to block for 4sec (and that is just one part of their defense), yet it would still be pretty stupid counter. It is also amplified greatly if used by many opponents, allowing any group (of any skill) to focus the medium armor builds, arguably the weakest builds when under focus of undodgeable abilities.
And no it is not build issue. Building medium armor with 30k resistance, shield and 30k hp is not solution. That is one of the roots of problem why everybody is heavy. It is simply pointless to play tanky medium. It is not designed to be tanky and glass cannon builds worked just fine for several years of this game. "Dont be glass cannon" is not saying anything more than would be saying "dont play DK" to everyone that complains DK are bad now or "dont play pvp" to everyone complaining about lags or no sounds.
Someone can be a glass canon; that's their option and there is nothing wrong with that...
But they better be ready to have their faces melted off by Soul Assault if they go down that road; with the glass canon builds, you can melt someone, but you can be melted as well...
That's something that you sign off on if you choose to go all in on damage...
Edit: there are pro's and cons to everything; these Medium Armor builds can potentially be beasts in close quarters combat so its not like they are filled with nothing but negatives; you cant have it all...
How about magicka builds, which can build for full damage ("glass cannon") and capitalize on that by having 15k spammable dmg shields? Do they get "melted" like medium armor builds that try to build for full damage?
Don't answer, rhetorical question. Just think about it for a while.
And no, this isn't shield QQ, it's just lamenting that medium armor can't build for full dmg (anymore) like magicka builds can.
Your rhetorical questions is patently wrong due to the extremely narrow view you seem to have in this.
By definition a shield stacking Sorc will not be doing damage 1/3 of the time since they will be stacking shields. If they do take damage then it become half their time merely taking care of themselves.
Second, and most important, a stam player who knows what they're doing an easily sustain their health in 1vX.
I suggest those complaining because something hurts to much or they are bullied by sorcs start looking at some vids to, hopefully, find ways to become a better player and stead of QQ in the forums asking for the game to be nerfed to their skill level.
It's really fabulous seeing a skilled stam with player in action. Sad to see those on the early side of the learning curve qq in the forums.
And a stam build spends 1/3 (if not more) of the time dodge rolling/recasting Vigor (which btw has shorter duration than dmg shields). What is your point?
There's no comparison between the survivability of a high dmg non-S&B medium armor build & a high dmg magicka build, they're on entirely different levels - just look at how the stamina defensive skills scale compared to magicka ones.
1k stamina=19 health/second for Vigor
1k magicka=220 to shield strength
Magicka defensive skills are literally over 10 times more efficient.
My Vigor heals for an average 8k over 5 seconds~ on my high damage bowblade, 10k over 5 seconds~ on my melee stamblade with 5k weapon dmg. A single shield cast (instant, not over 5 seconds) is typically over 50% more efficient, even before accounting the fact that you gain an average 15%~ more mitigation (compared to medium armor's base non-S&B mitigation) by removing crits from opponent
The only way for a stam build to "easily sustain their health" in 1vX (or even 1v1 against opponents with lots of undodgeable damage) is to go S&B and outheal damage while blocking. That's just a mathematical fact.
Dodge rolling used to be enough to help survive things, but those days are long gone.
@DDuke
If you are going to make such claims using actual numbers please try to be reasonably accurate.
If you are going to accuse others of being inaccurate, then atleast have the courtesy of being accurate yourself.Outside of PvP (PvP numbers would be comparable since the heal and shield are reduced by the same margin.}
Resolving Vigor costs barely 3k and heals for 11.4k over 5 seconds
Resolving Vigor costs 3160 stamina in a 5/1/1 setup and has a tooltip of 15 729/5s with 4779 weapon damage & 34 754 stamina.Harness Magicka costs 4k and protects for 10k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Harness Magicka costs 3920 magicka and has a tooltip of 22 343 (+30%=29 046) with 5/1/1 setup with 53 872 magicka and 2591 spell dmg (latter doesn't affect shield strength, fully aware of that).Hardened Ward costs 3300 and protects for 11k for up to 6 seconds, can be less.
Hardened Ward costs 2984 with the same build & protects for 23 670 (+33%=31 481)Deadly Cloak costs less than 3k and reduces AoE damage by 25% for 15 seconds (add does a little damage).
What does Deadly Cloak have to do with anything?Numbers can be slightly different depending on the build.
"slightly"(tm)So it is clear that the numbers you presented are not even close to anything actual. Both shields and vigor are comparable in HP returned/protected. It is not clear were you got the numbers that a shield is 11x stronger than vigor per resource cost. That is clearly false.
Numbers I presented are accurate - get 1k more stamina/magicka on your character and see how tooltips change, it's not rocket science.
But in case you misunderstood: casting shield every second is (atleast) 10x stronger defense than relying on Vigor ticks to survive.
1k stamina/100 weapon dmg=19 health/second (not 19 over 5 seconds) & 1k magicka=+220 shield strength, as I wrote on first page of this thread.
If you compare whole tooltips, casting one shield is almost twice as strong as what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.The fact remains, my point, that a skilled player has great survival in PvP. As I stated, watch some videos. It is fabulous watching a skilled stamina player or two in a fight against players 3x their numbers and clearing the field. You just might learn something.
Enjoy the game and have a good day.
Well, I happen to be one making such videos. I'm fully aware what different builds are capable of and what they aren't, and survivability definitely isn't the strong suit of any full dmg medium build, and even less so for sustain builds, if they don't run defensive sets or S&B (while full dmg magicka builds still get great survivability with 15k+ shields).
A damage heavy stamina build capitalizes on dealing with their opponents quick enough so that your own survivability doesn't become an issue. Pressured, these high damage stam builds crumble unless they run S&B.
Lmao.
My numbers are accurate. The ever so slight difference between your vigor cost and mine would clearly be explained with 7pc medium due to the extra stam cost reduction. It's fairly common for stam in medium armor to go a full 7 or 6/1.
Sure they do, if there's no other option (e.g. Marksman+Morag bow builds). Otherwise 5/1/1 always performs better for high damage builds, thanks to undaunted passive.Your also showing a higher number for the vigor heal. Thx, but my guess is you have a few Co into increasing healing or are getting a healing buff.
Never the less, the higher number your getting from vigor proves my point even further. Thx again.
Hey, as I said it's important to be accurate.
For the record: that's with zero CPs into +healing (as explained before, only a fool would put points there) and without Minor/Major Mending or Vitality as stamblades like me don't have feasible ways of accessing those buffs.
Major Brutality, Minor Berserk & weapon dmg enchant are the only buffs affecting the tooltip.As for your your different numbers for the shields it's clearly explain by gear build and CP. anyone. Funny how you even say this isn't rocket science yet you say I am inaccurate. What a hypocritical joke. Lol
Sorry, I don't get that. I thought we were comparing a maximum damage magicka build to a maximum damage stamina build - seems fairly straightforward to me.Of course your way to wiggle around the facts is a magicks user could cast the shield every second. Yea. He isn't doing anything else but burning his magicka.
Sure, at that moment the high damage magicka build might not be doing any damage, but atleast the magicka build survives - unlike a medium build that just gets blown out with all the undodgeable [snip].
That's kind of the entire point.You were stating a difference of 11x which by even your recent numbers you proved yourself flat wrong. Interesting how that works. Silly to argue about someone not doing any damage to you.
I said that magicka abilities scale better and that 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second.
Per second, that is 1:11 ratio in terms of efficiency when it comes to survivability.
Please point out where I'm wrong rather than repeating the same thing over & over again.
If you're going to say that "heals crit shields don't", then here's a quick calculation on how the scenario would look like if we added all available & feasible modifiers:
Crit Modifier 73%, Crit Chance 36.6%=an average 26.718% increase to heals.
Vigor tooltip 15 729/5->3145.8+26.718%=3986/second average healing
Alright, lets apply the negative modifiers:
3986-50%(Battle Spirit)=1993 health/second on average
1993-[44%(62 points Befoul Major Defile)+22%(62 points Befoul Minor Defile)]=678 health/second on average
...and compare it to the damage shields:
31 481(Hardened Ward)-50%(Battle Spirit)=15 740
29 046(Dampen Magic)-50%(Battle Spirit)=14 523
Are you sure you want to add these variables such as crits & buffs into the mix? They don't look good on medium armor.Last, if you have to ask what deadly cloak has to do with anything then this conversation needs to delve into some very basic aspects first.
Yes, some basic aspects, such as: who the [snip] has bar space for a situational niche skill such as Blade Cloak, and what does it have to do with anything? By same logic I could bring up Mist Form, Cleanse or Dark Cloak and claim they have something to do with the subject (when they don't).Again, watch some videos. Not the ones you make since you probably already know what you do. You might learn from others.
Aha, as a matter of fact I do watch a lot of streams & youtube videos.
Perhaps you have a recent one to link where the player is playing a high damage stamina build (not a S&B tank build) and has no problems with survivability?I am so glad I don't blame specific skills when I lose but realize there is something I could do different, do better. I certainly don't blame a skill that's been through various nerfs.
Oh, BTW, vigor also crits. Shields done. Thx and enjoy the game.
Who's blaming any specific skill? I'm saying medium armor lacks in survivability if they don't run S&B, that's just pretty much a fact these days.
It wasn't always like that, you were able to use Vigor better back in the days when dodge roll practically guaranteed it would heal you back up. That's just not the reality of ESO anymore, and that way of playing & surviving hasn't really been replaced with any alternative besides S&B tanking.
Oh. By your comparing apples to oranges. Which was clear as mud the first time you posted it.
Saying 1k magicka=+220 shield strength & 1k stamina=19 health/second, as you did, is like saying wrecking blow does 1k damage led 1k stam but rendering slashes only does 20 damage per 1k stam.
Your comparing an instant to a dot and only taking into account 1 tick of that dot.
Anyone with rudimentary math knowledge would be able to confidently say that's BS. The comparison is completely flawed.
Didn't bother commenting in the rest since if this is the basis of your argument the rest doesn't matter. The comparison is so flawed it seems more intended to mislead others. I will give you the benefit of the doubt you did not design it to mislead others but was merely accidental.
I think the disconnect is that you're not considering the timeframes in a frenetic PVP environment. In my opinion, it is in fact apt to make the comparison between the raw values. The shield can save you from an entire burst combo (and then some) in an instant, whereas if you vigor + roll or w/e, you're getting a very small heal in that first 1s of the cast. That makes a tremendous difference. Not to mention that all of the undodgeable damage will eat you up very quickly if you're just trying to vigor and roll.
I've been praying ZOS would see fit to give stamina/medium some kind of shielding for the several years I've been playing. Shields, as a mechanic in general, are ridiculous to me and I hope they are changed drastically.
Exactly.
Medium armor used to have a primary defense that helped them survive like magicka builds & their shields: dodge roll.
These days however, it's Vigor(/Rally for 2H builds) that's the primary defense, and it's simply not good enough. There's no spammable defense either for stam builds, you just have to hope heal ticks every second outheal the incoming undodgeable damage, which is not realistic (one Curse crit deals more dmg than Vigor heals in 5 seconds).
If ZOS hadn't made dodge roll borderline useless, none of this would be a problem right now.
/thread.
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »The funny thing is that no one gave a good reason why SA shouldnt be interruptable and apply a 70% snare. Or why it gives cc immunity to the caster. Or why it should even have 7-8 ticks of dmg basically making the block counter a no no for anyone without snb. I mean, the counter to medium already exists in the form of being undodgeable and doing stupid high dmg. Why the rest of the mechanics even exist?
I'm pretty sure I touched on this, but I'll go over it again...
SA is fine as it due to the downsides of using the ability:
It can be broken by breaking LoS (which is maginified in area's where there are lots of twists and turns and/or structures to break LoS with)...
Cloak can break it after 2 seconds...
You are completely exposed for the duration of the channel; against a proper build, the user of SA can be killed easily by a strong counter attack during this time. Against a strong counter attack the user has only 2 options: hold the channel and die or cancel out of the channel and attempt to heal up before dying (thereby ending the channel prematurely and wasting a significant portion of its damage)...
You are unable to take any other action during the channel; this plays directly into the former point as you cant heal, dodge roll, block, or perform any other action to save yourself during the channelling of the ability...
IMHO, these downsides justify SA staying as is...
As for the power level of the ability, it should be strong; you have to save the world to acquire it afterall...
Edit: keep in mind that SA is a single target 3+ sec channel. In the grand scheme of things, there are abilities in this game that are potentially much more destructive than SA and simutaneously last a much longer time than SA does (and said abilities dont leave you exposed and incapable of performing other actions during their duration)...
SA isnt all that...
For example, much of the time (unless I'm 1v1) Devouring Swarm will net more damage and be more useful than SA will...
People do not carry trees with them to LOS whenever they get soul assaulted. SA has a 70% snare. If there is no rock, tree or whatever right next to you then u aint going to LOS anything.
Cloak is one "counter" if u can call that a counter. But i guess its better than nothing. The issue that is NB specific. Ironically only NBs run medium these days. Other classes in medium are under extinction.
Speak for urself when u are talking about being exposed while channeling. You are playing in light armor full divines. No wonder u are exposed. A normal build with impen, shields, heavy or whatever will not go down in 3 seconds. And those who wish to try should be prepared to take 20k-30k dmg in 3 seconds. 90% of the people that tried this on me ended up either dying or going on defensive when they realised they are going to die if they dont block. And no, the other 10% didnt kill me. I was either cancelling it to go on defensive because i was getting zerged or cancelling it to finish the target with an execute.
Speak for urself again when u are talking about combos. Curse,fury, purifying light, shalk, inferno, skoria, dots etc. Those are things happening during SA. Put in the mix a cc before or after SA along with some burst ability or execute like frags, spectral bow, jesus beam and u are looking at some of the most stupid combos in the entire game.Edited by pieratsos on November 16, 2017 10:37PM0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭Edit: I'll respond properly later.
Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on November 16, 2017 11:04PMUnyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Two things:
Every good player I've tried to SA in the past managed to survive and recover from the damage and stam drain. I've seen clips of mediocre players surviving it and winning the fight, even.
Dunno how they did, blocking single ticks, I guess. Anyways.
Can Mist Form actually mitigate it sufficiently? That would allow you to move unsnared to LoS while recovering stam and wasting your enemy's ultimate.
Anyone tested that yet? Is it practicable?
Oh, and please spare me your crocodile tears, shieldbreakers.2 -
BroanBeast1215✭✭✭Two things:
Every good player I've tried to SA in the past managed to survive and recover from the damage and stam drain. I've seen clips of mediocre players surviving it and winning the fight, even.
Dunno how they did, blocking single ticks, I guess. Anyways.
Can Mist Form actually mitigate it sufficiently? That would allow you to move unsnared to LoS while recovering stam and wasting your enemy's ultimate.
Anyone tested that yet? Is it practicable?
Oh, and please spare me your crocodile tears, shieldbreakers.
lol @ you trying to compare a set of gear(shieldbreaker) to a skill lmaoEdited by BroanBeast1215 on November 17, 2017 1:49AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Two things:
Every good player I've tried to SA in the past managed to survive and recover from the damage and stam drain. I've seen clips of mediocre players surviving it and winning the fight, even.
Dunno how they did, blocking single ticks, I guess. Anyways.
Can Mist Form actually mitigate it sufficiently? That would allow you to move unsnared to LoS while recovering stam and wasting your enemy's ultimate.
Anyone tested that yet? Is it practicable?
Oh, and please spare me your crocodile tears, shieldbreakers.
Shieldbreaker and SA fall into the same category. Shieldbreaker for sorcs is the same as SA for medium armor builds.2
