Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Meanwhile in Glister Vale in Auridon, after a very brief absence, the bot train is back farming wolves as they have been for more than a year.

Why wouldnt they? Actually only because accounts disappear from botting, doesnt mean they are bcs ZOS banned them. Sometimes they jsut do, because they have enough gold on the bank to sell and dont need to grind a while.

Bot accounts returning after being gone for a while is very rare.

u, my pc na friend, ur sarcasm is awesome!

Bascially, on PC NA, it has never happened with any bots that I have ever observed. Maybe it is different on console or in Europe., or maybe I never detected them as bots.

Not to harsh. I wish they would actually give perma bans to some of the other cheating going on in game. Unfortunately we have seen from past actions by ZOS that "perma" bans are not actually perma. On top of that these cheaters can easily open new account

mb10 wrote: »

Theres 1000 thread already IGDAF if they get perm banned or setenced to prison tbh

Who actually cares what happened to some insecure elitists who couldnt finish the trial properly?

@mb10

you are savage af my friend

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

Doesn't matter, if it's in the ToS then they should abide to it no matter what it is.

Axoinus wrote: »

I've been wrapped up in RL issues last few weeks. Can someone point me to a thread where the back ground of this issue is explained?

Groups cheesed the boss on Vet mode that the boss couldn't attack them but they could attack the boss just like last time, also they were selling runs for 3m+ each.

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

Doesn't matter, if it's in the ToS then they should abide to it no matter what it is.

The ToS basically says they can ban you for what ever they want. It's a lawsuit deterrent. So I don't really see that as relevant here.

No one is saying ZoS doesn't have the legal right to ban these players from the game. The question here is was a permanent ban too harsh.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

And I'd have much more sympathy for these people had they A, not made it incredibly easy for ZOS to find by filming it.

B, not bragged about it.

And, as everyone has said, it's the terms of service.

As I just got done telling the last poster - the ToS basically says they can ban you for what ever they want. It's intended to protect the company from lawsuits. So I don't see it as relevant here.

No one is arguing ZoS doesn't have the legal right to ban these players. The question here is was it too harsh to do so.

As far as filming it - maybe they filmed it because they did not think they would be banned for it? It's not unusual to find online tutorials on how to use unintended exploits and tricks to beat a boss more easily. Because as I was saying, using discovered tricks to defeat bosses in unintended ways is hardly unusual on games. It's something I've seen lots of players do on nearly game I have ever played. So despite all the pious recriminations and judgments on this board - I'd be very surprised if every single one of us here has not been a party to something similar.

@wazzz56

LOL Some things have to be said sometimes Im afraid

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

Thing is, you're not allowed to take advantage of bugs. Reporting them instead of abusing them is something that we all agreed to do when we accepted ToS. You cannot even start the game without accepting these rules.
As for using glitches... If, for example, there would be an exploit that would allow you to rob other players accounts, would it be ok to use it? Developers mistake and all that.
Yes, sometimes the game is so broken thta the bugs occur all the time (for example, that week when one of vAS bosses was bugged). But in this case, its not something that could be triggered randomly. According to forum posters, those guys have a long history of exploiting the game, some of them already were banned (temporarily), and they were selling their knowledge of the bug. One of them even created a video tutorial about the exploit (its still on youtube, but I cant link it because of obvious reasons).

I don't have time to read every post, but can someone explain who got banned? i noticed the last few days there has been similar posts, but I couldn't figure out what zeni did. Did they ban a bunch of people? If so what did they get banned for?

I personally wish they would name and shame the cheaters. That way we can see who really was cheating.

If players got banned for some kind of zeni bug then I think it would be zeni's fault for not fixing it. CE cheaters should be banned forever.

Jeremy wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

In this case, ZOS probably saw the player intent as malicious. There was no reason for ZOS to treat them nicely. They got what they deserved. Had the people involved handled it differently, ZOS probably would have taken different action.

Perhaps.

But if they were banned for merely taking advantage of a discovered bug which allowed them to defeat a boss from safety I would never support a permanent ban for that sort of thing.

Now if there were other factors involved of a more malicious nature as you put it then I can't speak to that.

There were. They were also selling bugged runs and some (if ot all) of those players were involved in other exploits (vMoL etc).

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

Thing is, you're not allowed to take advantage of bugs. Reporting them instead of abusing them is something that we all agreed to do when we accepted ToS. You cannot even start the game without accepting these rules.
As for using glitches... If, for example, there would be an exploit that would allow you to rob other players accounts, would it be ok to use it? Developers mistake and all that.
Yes, sometimes the game is so broken thta the bugs occur all the time (for example, that week when one of vAS bosses was bugged). But in this case, its not something that could be triggered randomly. According to forum posters, those guys have a long history of exploiting the game, some of them already were banned (temporarily), and they were selling their knowledge of the bug. One of them even created a video tutorial about the exploit (its still on youtube, but I cant link it because of obvious reasons).

Refer to my earlier comments in regards to the ToS because I've already addressed that issue and am already starting to sound repetitive.

If these players were banned for something more than simply taking advantage of a bug on a boss fight then that is a different matter. But banning someone for that - especially a permanent ban - is way too severe.

I have to get off here so if I don't answer back that is why.

Jeremy wrote: »

But if they were banned for merely taking advantage of a discovered bug which allowed them to defeat a boss from safety I would never support a permanent ban for that sort of thing.

Now if there were other factors involved of a more malicious nature as you put it then I can't speak to that.

If you see the video, which I am not going to help anyone find, you will lose a lot of sympathy for the people who exploited this situation. The person doing the video knew what this was, and knew what could happen. They decided to tell people about it, and enlist others to participate in the exploit, so that ZOS would not ban people.

This is a quote from that video:
"If more people do this glitch, the less people will get banned. You can't get banned if a whole bunch of people do it, so everybody do it."

The instant they started to enlist others to take advantage of a veteran end game hard mode exploit, this whole thing went to the next level. Having someone publish a how-to video with the suggestion that more people should do it propelled this to the point where the publisher took action.

In the case of the ringleaders, the braggarts, the skin-sellers, and the repeat offenders, in the particular exact case of this vHM Asylum exploit, no. They deserve the ban. That said, in all this, there were apparently at least two people who stand out to me, at least as portrayed on the fora. Both appear to have had previously exemplary records, and just went along with it. One guy was allegedly told "Just stand here." Should they have left? Yeah. But their offenses are not as egregious as the guy who posted a video and attempted to sell skin runs. So do they deserve the same exact punishment? Not to my mind.

Do they still deserve disciplinary action? Certainly. For starters, they should absolutely lose their title, achieve, skin, and any loot from it. No ifs, ands, or buts. Then, because of the egregiousness of it (it does cheapen the efforts of those who completed this content at its highest level or who are hoping to), I'd absolutely support a 30 day ban, assuming they can provide evidence to otherwise flawless records and no other wrongdoing in this matter. No bragging. No selling runs. No telling others how to do it.

Here's the thing. Though it may sound nice, a blanket zero-tolerance system is godawful. ZOS has a frankly wretched track record when it comes to communication, leaving interpretation of what classifies up to the players until ZOS arbitrarily comes down with a hammer. One need only look at the discussion surrounding Miat's to see how widely that differs. Additionally, it puts all offenses on the same level. That means that, as awful as the worst person in this was, the person who was farming in Clockwork City and got too many furnishing plans because ZOS allegedly (according to ZOS) screwed up the drop rates would get the same punishment. Technically, that's an exploit and ZOS can perma-ban them, too. It's in the ToS after all, isn't it? Yeah, but doing so would be absolutely stupid. We don't know ZOS's intentions regarding drop rates or what we should or shouldn't be getting, so for all we know that's how it should be.

Another issue of poor communication is that ZOS also doesn't seem to respond to those exploit reports all that well or often. So if you do report something you're unsure of, you may not get a message telling you "Yeah, this is an exploit/bug" or "Nah, it's intended. You're good." So if you report something and nothing changes - no one says anything, no one does anything, nothing freaking happens - what the heck are you supposed to think? "This has been mentioned repeatedly and gone on for months with multiple people pointing it out to ZOS, and absolutely nothing has happened. It's totally perma-ban worthy"?

Don't get me wrong. This particular exploit is obvious and egregious and all but (possibly) a couple fringe cases deserve their perma-ban. But if this is supposed to mark the start of a zero-tolerance road with no questions asked and no reviews possible, we need to stop right freaking here right freaking now. As many good feelings as I may have toward the people of ZOS, I wouldn't trust them in that as far as I can throw them. You can't even trust them to fix obvious achievement bugs that have been in existence since the start of the year, and people are comfortable with them possibly having such a heavy-handed, arbitrary policy? That's incredibly questionable.