DDuke wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Yeah, the pestilence of snipe spamming dung piles needs to be extinguished from the face of cyrodiil.

The problem is not griefing other players, which is basically what snipe spamming is all about, the problem is the zero risk mentality ZOS implemented for such pathetic losers.

By the way: OP is not using Miat's PvP Alerts' incoming projectile function and no, you cannot hear projectiles without sound and no, not all casted projectiles are animated by the game engine. The moment more than a certain amount of skills are active at once, the animations of AoE and projectiles vanish and cannot be identified quickly without addon (feared animation not playing, negate not visible, snipe not visible etc. pp.).

"Zero risk" - did you watch the video? Almost all of those bow users died in it.

The only time you can talk about zero risk is when you're sniping at a target 40m+ away (meaning you can't combo the snipe and thus can't get kills on anyone even semi-decent at this game) from a keep wall where you can't get surprised by someone from stealth (ironic btw).

In every other scenario, bow is far from zero risk since you're as good as dead when caught by permablocking root/snare/undodgeable damage spamming DKs, sorc streaks, Soul Assaults etc.

The entire bow playstyle is about kiting & dealing ranged damage which might be annoying to some people - but tell me, how is that any different than playing against a magicka sorc camping mines? Or a permacloaking magblade with 15k+ Assassin's Wills combo'd with CCs?

Voxicity wrote: »

I actually don't understand why people have any problems with gankers in the game's current meta. I used to get ganked multiple times per evening of PvPing, now I don't even remember the last time I was ganked and I run around Cyrodiil with like 22k health. Pretty much a prime target.

Nor can I successfully pull off a gank unless the target is afk or has extremely low health, like 20k. Otherwise they just cc break and begin perma blocking.

And I think there are like 2 snipers in vivec pc eu right now, a couple of DC players.

So yeah, I think it's just that people still have a hate for the old times when ganking actually was a problem and happened frequently. I don't mind that ganking is less effective these days, I just wish it wasn't replaced with the tanky perma blocking meta. Slow gameplay is mind numbingly boring for me.

Both of these posts made me think of Boroon and Black-Cat

SodanTok wrote: »

I do not understand the video. You fought ~6 newbie stealth snipers with 300ms ping and won the fight. The end? What it demonstrates? And I dont mean it as some tongue in cheek statement. I genuinely do not see anything worth demonstration. Unless the point was to show that it is annoying how long it takes to kill very obviously newbie players if they use range and stealth to kite you. In that case, I am sure they were annoyed how nearly impossible is to kill DK using block/wings and how easy is for them to die when in range of whip/leap.

I would be more understanding if the demonstration shows your bow build 1vX players better than most other builds. Because thats how is strength in this game measured is it not? Or are we going to complain about bow light attackers next once you release video engaging 40 of them?

It demonstrates a situation where Miat's PvP Alerts would've been a powerful tool.

Using ones imagination a little to extrapolate the skill and gear level of the snipers and I can easily admit I would've died quickly, not because they became more skilled or even because outnumbered, but because I didn't have Miat's PvP Alerts installed. That is the problem (admittedly maybe not well conveyed by myself), even if you greatly increase my opponents skill, they still might have lost if I was using Miat's PvP Alerts.

Cavedog wrote: »

Having access to information that helps in pvp that is not native to the game is, by definition, cheating.

Why do so many people in today's world not understand where these lines are and are not? Or is it that they just don't care or are the kind of people that don't want to be fair?

If you listen to Miats justification for his cheat engine, he sounds like the Kremlin justifying their dirty tricks.

This is just a game. There is no reason to cheat.

So knowing about the penetration cap or the amount of resistance that equals 1% mitigation is cheating? Because that information is not native to the game.

Berenhir wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

Having access to information that helps in pvp that is not native to the game is, by definition, cheating.

Why do so many people in today's world not understand where these lines are and are not? Or is it that they just don't care or are the kind of people that don't want to be fair?

If you listen to Miats justification for his cheat engine, he sounds like the Kremlin justifying their dirty tricks.

This is just a game. There is no reason to cheat.

So knowing about the penetration cap or the amount of resistance that equals 1% mitigation is cheating? Because that information is not native to the game.

That Information can be sorted out by testing.
You cannot get the informations Miats provides no matter what you do.
Seeing the casttime of a skill used by a player in hide isn't something you can know about no matter what you do.

Jade1986 wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

First of all I think addons like this should be forbidden. Next I would like to say I understand people who are upset about being one-shot from stealth.

I think the entire stealth thing should be reworked. No more crouch and be completely invisible when in plain sight. Maybe just remove name tag and make character semi transparent when further away then let's say 50 m. for enemies. Let's hide in bushes and behind rocks instead in an open field.

Cloak and potions should work though.

They would have to rework the entire game then, no. There are counters to it, if people choose to be lazy and not use those counters, that is their problem.

Yeah, I don't have much problem with it myself but I do understand people who hate being ganked all the time by people hiding in plane sight. I hardly get ganked myself because I just perma-cloak when running from A to B.

The only point about this whole argument is that ZOS provides crucial combat information (projectiles / cast time directed at you) only via API and thus only users that have an addon that processes this information can react to it.
The question is not if people having one of these many addons are cheaters, the question is if ZOS should provide this information via API only or even if they should provide it at all.

Throwing dirt at other players for playing the game with all the available information is counterproductive and derailing all attempts to fix the issue above.

If you do not want ZOS to provide certain information at all or in this way, speak to ZOS and not to people using the information ZOS DELIBERATELY, VOLUNTARILY AND CONSCIOUSLY provides.

People still moaning about Miat's, lovely.

most fights are played with no sound atm i'd say Thats a reason to use miats or any other addon that gives you notifications.

DDuke wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

The only point about this whole argument is that ZOS provides crucial combat information (projectiles / cast time directed at you) only via API and thus only users that have an addon that processes this information can react to it.
The question is not if people having one of these many addons are cheaters, the question is if ZOS should provide this information via API only or even if they should provide it at all.

Throwing dirt at other players for playing the game with all the available information is counterproductive and derailing all attempts to fix the issue above.

If you do not want ZOS to provide certain information at all or in this way, speak to ZOS and not to people using the information ZOS DELIBERATELY, VOLUNTARILY AND CONSCIOUSLY provides.

Are you always that full of [snip], or is this a special occasion?

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to let everyone know, we have been keeping a close eye on this thread and everyone's feedback on these types of addons. We can tell you that we're planning to make some changes to our API to disallow some aspects that we're simply not comfortable with. This is all actively in progress, and we'll let you know exactly what we plan to change when we have a better idea of when we'll be rolling it out; we want to give our addon developers a warning so they have a chance to iterate.

Nothing ZOS has said or done indicates that these API functions are there deliberately. It seems more like an oversight - a loophole if you will. A bug in the API that some have decided to abuse in order to remove from the game builds they don't like.

One could call that exploiting/cheating.

I'll just loudly ignore your intellectual disability to have an argument without personal attacks.

So Chip told Miat that he believes notification about stealth attacks was something against which active countermeasures will be taken in the future. But then they didn't change the API function providing information about channeled attacks from stealth with the next API update.

Gina Bruno later stated they plan to make changes in the API to disallow certain information to be recieved.

So at this very point in time, recieving this information is still disallowed, it is actively provided by specificly programmed functions from ZOS - even if the devs feel "uncomfortable" with their work.

They probably also felt uncomfortable with how they programmed the first iteration of eye of the storm - but using it anyway cannot be called cheating or bugusing just because people thought of applications (e.g. ball group trains) which ZOS clearly never imagined.

[Edited for quote]

(And thanks to my clumsy fingers I have to rewrite this all over again. How the heck did I select all and then spaced to lose it all? Lol.)

Now I will start by saying I did not watch the video, but I'm not really here to comment on it either. This is more about my feelings on the add on itself and gankers.

First off, gankers frustrate me to no end, especially since 7 out of 10, it's someone way above my level and definitely skill. I'm a PVEer 95% of the time, but I venture into Cryo for skyshards, books and resource nodes because there's actually a lot out there with little actual competition for them. I may occasionally 'help' defend a keep or whatever but that's it. All my characters are WIPs, using basic outdated crafted sets or even just drops, waiting for the right time for my crafter to be able to make them decent stuff. I'm never built for PVP at all, so I don't expect a very good outcome with any other enemy player. The first thing I do when I see another enemy player is run and hide, and while I have toons of every class, I'm usually these days on my Stamina Templar, which as every PVPer knows, unless she's a vampire (she's not) then there's no mobility.

As you can imagine, it's either mercy or luck that they didn't see me while flying by on their maxed speed mount, however most gankers are not in plain sight, I mean that'd defeat the purpose of a ganker lol. My Stamplar has a tiny max health of 14.6K, roughly, without food. So a easy target, no mobility and little health with no PVP skill. That's why it frustrates me when I'm just out and about and get attacked out of nowhere by a skilled PVP ganker looking for quick AP and a easy kill. Again my only real chance is to run, most of my toons are werewolves so I try to morph, use a roar or knockdown to fear or knock them down for a moment so i have the chance to turn and run. Werewolves run faster than someone on foot unless they got something to speed themselves up, about 50% of the chance though I get away, which is far better than the 10% I'd get standing up to them for real. It'd just be suicidal, my reflexes are nowhere near fast enough, sure I can cast skills semi quick in decent rotation, but I can't chase them around while they walk circles around me, CC me and all that. It's just not possible for me to do and I am just not built for it.

As frustrating as it is to be hunted down mercilessly by those that don't give up from someone who's obviously not a PVPer, I still would not use the add on. Yes that's right, I'm sure a lot of you are gonna hate and pick on me about the above two paragraphs, but I still am not going to use the add on no matter how frustrated I get. It's too far in the other direction, gankers picking on PVEers and not even good ones (me) is unfair, yes, but using the addon I feel would be even more unfair in the other direction. Ganking is a playstyle, one they have to work at and it DOES require skill, the add on doesn't, though it's a playstyle I cannot agree with, it's still a playstyle.

The add on is a easy cheat that really unbalances things, I'm not a PVPer but that much is plain by just using common sense. I rather not beat a unfair situation by being MORE unfair, it's not really justified. It's better to lose fairly than win by cheating, death in the game, while annoying, mainly just calls for a long walk in the other direction, since going back to where I died would be dumb.

Taylor_MB wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

I do not understand the video. You fought ~6 newbie stealth snipers with 300ms ping and won the fight. The end? What it demonstrates? And I dont mean it as some tongue in cheek statement. I genuinely do not see anything worth demonstration. Unless the point was to show that it is annoying how long it takes to kill very obviously newbie players if they use range and stealth to kite you. In that case, I am sure they were annoyed how nearly impossible is to kill DK using block/wings and how easy is for them to die when in range of whip/leap.

I would be more understanding if the demonstration shows your bow build 1vX players better than most other builds. Because thats how is strength in this game measured is it not? Or are we going to complain about bow light attackers next once you release video engaging 40 of them?

It demonstrates a situation where Miat's PvP Alerts would've been a powerful tool.

Using ones imagination a little to extrapolate the skill and gear level of the snipers and I can easily admit I would've died quickly, not because they became more skilled or even because outnumbered, but because I didn't have Miat's PvP Alerts installed. That is the problem (admittedly maybe not well conveyed by myself), even if you greatly increase my opponents skill, they still might have lost if I was using Miat's PvP Alerts.

In that case, if I understand it right, your demonstration is actually to show that if you fought outnumbered against ganking snipers in BiS gear (and somehow capable) you would have problem and possibly die. Therefore it confirms that the reason to use Miat in that scenario would be to gain fight winning advantage? In that case, you are correct. Miat is indeed powerful tool when it comes to the sheer size of advantage it gives.

You could have literally take 0 damage in that fight if you had sustain for wings or at least Miat would allow you to successfully block every hit that mattered (snipe, bow ulti) while letting you preserve stamina by letting of block when no danger was coming.

Miat users be like... "What you expect me to dodge only some arrows by luck, skill, and careful timing? B-b-but I wanna be Neo dodging everything! I'm the chosen one! You expect me to get hit by somebody I can't see behind me from across the field coming out of stealth AKA playing their play style? BRUH!"

Jade1986 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

(And thanks to my clumsy fingers I have to rewrite this all over again. How the heck did I select all and then spaced to lose it all? Lol.)

Now I will start by saying I did not watch the video, but I'm not really here to comment on it either. This is more about my feelings on the add on itself and gankers.

First off, gankers frustrate me to no end, especially since 7 out of 10, it's someone way above my level and definitely skill. I'm a PVEer 95% of the time, but I venture into Cryo for skyshards, books and resource nodes because there's actually a lot out there with little actual competition for them. I may occasionally 'help' defend a keep or whatever but that's it. All my characters are WIPs, using basic outdated crafted sets or even just drops, waiting for the right time for my crafter to be able to make them decent stuff. I'm never built for PVP at all, so I don't expect a very good outcome with any other enemy player. The first thing I do when I see another enemy player is run and hide, and while I have toons of every class, I'm usually these days on my Stamina Templar, which as every PVPer knows, unless she's a vampire (she's not) then there's no mobility.

As you can imagine, it's either mercy or luck that they didn't see me while flying by on their maxed speed mount, however most gankers are not in plain sight, I mean that'd defeat the purpose of a ganker lol. My Stamplar has a tiny max health of 14.6K, roughly, without food. So a easy target, no mobility and little health with no PVP skill. That's why it frustrates me when I'm just out and about and get attacked out of nowhere by a skilled PVP ganker looking for quick AP and a easy kill. Again my only real chance is to run, most of my toons are werewolves so I try to morph, use a roar or knockdown to fear or knock them down for a moment so i have the chance to turn and run. Werewolves run faster than someone on foot unless they got something to speed themselves up, about 50% of the chance though I get away, which is far better than the 10% I'd get standing up to them for real. It'd just be suicidal, my reflexes are nowhere near fast enough, sure I can cast skills semi quick in decent rotation, but I can't chase them around while they walk circles around me, CC me and all that. It's just not possible for me to do and I am just not built for it.

As frustrating as it is to be hunted down mercilessly by those that don't give up from someone who's obviously not a PVPer, I still would not use the add on. Yes that's right, I'm sure a lot of you are gonna hate and pick on me about the above two paragraphs, but I still am not going to use the add on no matter how frustrated I get. It's too far in the other direction, gankers picking on PVEers and not even good ones (me) is unfair, yes, but using the addon I feel would be even more unfair in the other direction. Ganking is a playstyle, one they have to work at and it DOES require skill, the add on doesn't, though it's a playstyle I cannot agree with, it's still a playstyle.

The add on is a easy cheat that really unbalances things, I'm not a PVPer but that much is plain by just using common sense. I rather not beat a unfair situation by being MORE unfair, it's not really justified. It's better to lose fairly than win by cheating, death in the game, while annoying, mainly just calls for a long walk in the other direction, since going back to where I died would be dumb.

That is actually a perfectly sound way to look at it. You hate it, but you have a plan b if things go sideways. I hate getting ganked too. Yes gankers get ganked, lol.

Yeah plus I doubt many gankers will expect a werewolf and especially one that shifts to run, they're not overly common and are kinda weak in most situations without a good build, but without it in both PVE and PVP, I'd be more dead then I usually am lol. The fear and knockback gives me a few precious seconds to flee which in PVP, a few seconds can mean all the difference. Ganking will forever be a bane in my side, but there are ways to defeat it if you use what you have and even think outside the box. Surprising the player, not only the character, can also be a advantage.