Why are people so bad at the game?

Asardes · November 2017

Anything more than 15-20 minutes vWGT HM is a slow run IMO. That's why I don't run veteran content with random players anymore. Most of them suck and many of those don't even care what you are explaining in chat so why should I keep running with such people?

I've written enough about builds and dungeon mechanics on this forum to assemble a small novel so I consider I'm doing my duty towards other players. If they really cared they could simply search on the forum and see what other people have probably explained countless times. If they don't it's entirely their fault. And from what I've heard from other people ESO is actually easy at all levels compared to other online games.

And some dungeons like vWGT have been repeatedly nerfed over the years on top of the power creep from CP cap increase and strong sets that weren't in the game when it launched. Yet people beat it with less than CP300 and VR14 crafted gear within days of launch. I agree with OP: there's no excuse for not beating it easily today.

My advice is to join a guild and not run anything but normal dungeons with randoms.

NewBlacksmurf · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

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NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Its that you have the wrong mentality...... you want/assume everyone else is bad if they don't desire to speed run through it, have the min/max or best and top DPS or rotation as well as flawless runs.

Good/Bad shouldn't be defined in this way.
If this is what you seek and desire, find like minded players who also share that same interest and play amongst one another.

The reality is most people are playing the game for entertainment and fun on varying degrees or definitions. I'd guess more than less aren't focused on what you feel is defined as good. Also, for many, its not a competition.

I did not mention speedruns, it is okey for me to be in a dungeon for a long time, if the group actually follow mechanics, priorities targets and make a dent in bosses health.

Not getting oneshotted standing in red, avoiding to use buffs like food, run veteran content with 11 k health.

Sometimes it feels like people play in first person view standing in all stupid like it was my healing spring.

Why does any of that frustrate you tho?
It doesn't seem you're identifying they are blaming you or kicking you correct?

Because dungeons have become a kickfest, just waiting for the right dps, people initiate votes like never before, I feel bad for the dps ofcourse, not funny being kicked, only knowing your dps wont cut it and standing in que 30 min allover for nothing or repeating the process wich makes people quit.

-What if I told you that people who share your point of view tend not to use the dungeon queue's?

This is true, but it is there and people use it and fail miserably at it, which leads to my question,
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kylewwefan wrote: »

There are many pug breakers in dungeons. Planar inhibitors, flesh sculptor, Xal Nur, etc. group finder pugging sux bal sometimes. Even being in several guilds I use it. IDK why. It almost never turns out good.

Haha yes the feeling I'm in five guilds myself but still use it hence my tread about this subject.

You are using it....too.....and complain but don't have to use it.

Zer0oo · November 2017

I got the feeling the dps did drop quite after morrowind for most bad dds and most dds in the dungeon finder are somewhere around 3k-7k dps now. (Kinda funny since the update was intended to do the opposite ) And most dds do not even know they are really bad since there is really no way that the game tells them so unless they buy an expensive testing dummy or install and addon. The overland and normal mode content is also so easy that they more or less get the feeling they are extrem good.

getemshauna · November 2017

Someone has to be bad, and only then someone different can be good.

dmnqwk · November 2017

Ertthewolf wrote: »

It's a video game.....Can you be good at it? Sure. But I'd rather practice my guitar a few hours to keep perfecting that. Or maybe go out with my wife for dinner and talk about real life things. I think this is most people's situation.

Also, ESO has many build options and play styles. Let em play as they want....Being overly competitive at something that burns up your time a few hours a night shouldn't be the major goal. The reason. It literally means nothing to be on a leaderboard and earn in game pixels that last until the game is old and something else comes out.

My two cents....

Your argument is against expecting people to be better, but you've actually explained why they should be...

Would you expect to pay for a terrible meal that took hours, had rude service and gave you food poisoning?
Would you expect to be allowed to play your guitar on the street outside your neighbours at 2am, because you pay the same taxes as they do?

Too many people think when you're online, the rules of society do not apply - because you don't physically travel anywhere, because you don't have to exert yourself to do the activity you don't have to respect other people, and it's the biggest reason we have so much animosity or aggression online. When you don't remember you are choosing to play with other people and need to put in a fair level of effort, that's when the online community becomes toxic, and it's not because of anyone but yourself.

TESO doesn't force you to group, but if you choose to do so you should be putting in a decent level of effort, the same kind of effort you expect a restaurant to put in feeding you or the same effort you can expect from your co-workers, or if you play a team sport the same effort you can expect from your teammates. Don't go in with the sociopathic ideology that you can play how you want, because you absolutely can... until you choose to play with others.

And that is why "poor" players are an issue - but not poor in the sense of ability, poor in the sense of effort.

Nussi28 · November 2017

There's one major thing not mentioned, yet. Latency. This highly influences players performance. It's actually only possible to achieve high dps numbers with a fast and stable connection. When the connection isn't stable enough, it's messing up the rotation. When you can't reliable weapon swap oder block canceling your dps will be reduced drastically
For healers and tanks a perfect rotation isn't necessary to get the job done. They struggle more with incoming damage. A high latency for example don't let you see the aoes correct.
Some days ago I got kicked from the group with my healer after several wipes at Molag Kena.

Jamini · November 2017

The issue isn't necessarily that they are bad at the game.
The issue is that you are probably becoming very good at it.

Iselin · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

Is it because the "play as you want" mentality which screws over builds?

It's not a "mentality" it's the game's advertised and delivered design.

Most other MMOS these days pre-make the classes and give you very few choices on how you might make your character different. That wasn't always the case but it sure as heck is now. Just take a look at WOW and how they went from a fairly varied class development system in Vanilla to what it is today.

People who do well in ESO are the ones who enjoy the character building freedom and have the smarts to choose wisely... or at least the smarts to ask and watch the correct YT video that does it for them

The result is that you can have 2 players with the same class, the same CP points and their build and performance might be miles apart. The freedom to build a character well is the same freedom that allows you to totally screw it up too.

In WOW these days you have to try really hard to under-perform and even then your performance won't be as far below ideal performance as it's possible to do in ESO.

IronCrystal · November 2017

First of all, these players aren't bad "at the game." They are bad "at combat". Gotta specify.

I view it as, the scaling between normal and vet is too great, and it causes many players who don't know how to play the game to hit a hard wall when it comes to progression.

The game is terrible when it comes to explaining mechanics.

As for those who say "your idea of fun is not the same as theirs", I don't believe anyone is having fun when the group wipes over and over again for an hour or two.

Every time I think about the group finder problems, I feel like we need to have match making like dota 2, where it matches you with players of approximate rank/skill. As an experienced player, it is not my "duty" to carry new players. I should be able to play with other "experienced" players without having to do the legwork of finding them myself.

People view the group finder as the "lowest denominators" tool, but in reality it should be able to suit everyone.

Nussi28 · November 2017

I've succesfully completed this fight several times with different chars. But when you can't see the moving aoe in time, it gets impossible.

Nussi28 · November 2017

I've succesfully completed this fight several times with different chars. But when you can't see the moving aoe in time, it gets impossible.

altemriel · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

I main a healer and farmed WGT a lot, even beaten it in hardmode veteran with random groups, but to get a group like that is equal to winning the lottery.

Often in dungeons it's a tedious and time-consuming battle, sometimes it feels like the dps heals the enemies, the glorious last boss in direfrost keep for instance that heals more than the dps do damage more often than not. And these are high CP players.

When I get a good dps group I still get surprised. In other games it wasn't like this , when I got a bad dps group it was rare. In eso it's reversed, why is it like this?

Is it because the "play as you want" mentality which screws over builds?

Is it the "I'm queing as a tank for veteran dungeons, but I'm an dps"

Is it because people don't know about rotation, skills that complement eatchother.

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

We need a sheet after eatch dungeon or trial run that show us dps and healing done, maybe then people actually see how bad they are and try to compensate. If 1 dps does 10 % of all damage and the other do 90 %. It will hopefully be a wakeup call to get better? Like K/D makes people play at their best in FPS games, and research weapons and kits to be competitive.

Why is it like this?

because not all the people are into min maxing, into builds and stuff, some just enjoy the game and do not care (or do not know)

and you can pretty easily reach max CP cap with "no build", it just takes longer

Orjix · November 2017

because it is an Elder Scrolls game, so it draws in Elder Scrolls fans who aren't really that into MMOs (like myself), so they play it like an Elder Scrolls game, and not a MMO. they want to be able to do and see nearly everything just like the Elder Scrolls games let you so they want to do the dungeons and trials even though they aren't that good at the game. its the Elder Scrolls branding effect

Danksta · November 2017

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

Gulnagel · November 2017

Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

As stated above, majority of people don't find it funny wiping again, again, again and again.

Loves_guars · November 2017

Because only a few builds are viable (do enough damage for a quick dungeon) and most people want to play with the skills they like.

So who's fault is it? Yes I guess that anyone that queues for a dungeon should carry their weight; but also the game is at fault for allowing so little variety. Or maybe the variety is not the problem but the huge difference between a "meta" build and a custom one.

Iselin · November 2017

Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

And they should stick to the overland if that's how they feel.

Joining a group dungeon sort of implies you're someone who does enjoy that type of thing. You should be ready for the increased demand to be good if you do.

abelsgmx · November 2017

Worst yet when they got angry and guilty the healer for group failure in vet dungeons and kick it from party, when they don't know how to block, dodge roll and/or use shields

Gulnagel · November 2017

Jamini wrote: »

The issue isn't necessarily that they are bad at the game.
The issue is that you are probably becoming very good at it.

Haha if only this were true ☺

If I would cook you food and it tastes terrible, lets say i had to much salt in, does it taste terrible because you are a better cook or does it taste terrible simply because I couldn't follow a simple recipe?

As in eso, I'm experienced enough to know when someone don't follow the "recipe" and use proper rotation and buffs amongst other things. No matter my level if skill, I can't heal stupid.

Huyen · November 2017

We as older players got taugh that you gotta work and keep improving yourself to get stuff done. Kids these days mostly get stuff handed to them when they ask for it. So when you got a great group, its usally older people trying to improve themselfs the best they can, and not some spoilet brat.

Rouven · November 2017

To use your soccer analogy - you cannot simply "play" as a goalkeeper in a professional league because they .. pardon me, don't play for fun.

So, the equivalent of a random soccer-game finder does not exist in the real world because . This would be more akin to applying for a guild with like minded people that share the same goals as you.

If however there would be the equivalent out there I bet we would have the same scenario and we would see a lot of goals. If we are still talking about the goalkeeper. Otherwise it might take a while until the ball comes even remotely close.

jaws343 · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

I main a healer and farmed WGT a lot, even beaten it in hardmode veteran with random groups, but to get a group like that is equal to winning the lottery.

Often in dungeons it's a tedious and time-consuming battle, sometimes it feels like the dps heals the enemies, the glorious last boss in direfrost keep for instance that heals more than the dps do damage more often than not. And these are high CP players.

When I get a good dps group I still get surprised. In other games it wasn't like this , when I got a bad dps group it was rare. In eso it's reversed, why is it like this?

Is it because the "play as you want" mentality which screws over builds?

Is it the "I'm queing as a tank for veteran dungeons, but I'm an dps"

Is it because people don't know about rotation, skills that complement eatchother.

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

We need a sheet after eatch dungeon or trial run that show us dps and healing done, maybe then people actually see how bad they are and try to compensate. If 1 dps does 10 % of all damage and the other do 90 %. It will hopefully be a wakeup call to get better? Like K/D makes people play at their best in FPS games, and research weapons and kits to be competitive.

Why is it like this?

Honestly, I would prefer to have a DPS do 10-15K in a Vet dungeon and stay alive than have one doing 30K plus but dying repeatedly.

I also don't think that 300+ or 400+ CP is some sort of magic evaluating line that lets you distinguish when someone will be outputting good dps. I can assure you that I completed all VET dungeons, often times being the best DPS, before I hit 400 CP and before I was doing more than 12K DPS. Why? Because out side of a few DPS checks in a few dungeons, survivability is far more important to the group than Min/Max in Vet dungeons.

And even those few DPS checks can be manipulated with a bit of team work. For example, if you time your ULTs properly, a low DPS group can get past Urata in COAII with a little time. And honestly, the Direfrost fight has nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with players knowing mechanics. If you do not break free, no amount of DPS will complete that dungeon.

Danksta · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

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Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

And they should stick to the overland if that's how they feel.

Joining a group dungeon sort of implies you're someone who does enjoy that type of thing. You should be ready for the increased demand to be good if you do.

I'm not condoning it, just answering a question with an extremely obvious answer. I agree that if you're going to join a group of random strangers you should at least have an interest in pulling your weight, but if you've ever been out in the real world you'd know that not everyone's that courteous.

Iselin · November 2017

Huyen wrote: »

We as older players got taugh that you gotta work and keep improving yourself to get stuff done. Kids these days mostly get stuff handed to them when they ask for it. So when you got a great group, its usally older people trying to improve themselfs the best they can, and not some spoilet brat.

In my day you had to walk to the dungeon and back. And it was uphill both ways.

Linaleah · November 2017

because even with looking up the meta builds and meta gear sets and setting up the bars etc - you cannot. beat. personal reflexes and/or latency. the best you can hope for is someone who is reasonably competent. and by reasonably competent - i mean has a cohesive even if not minmaxed build, listens to explanations of the mechanics and actualy follows them to the best of their ability/internet connection.

contrary to expectation - 30k dps is NOT the norm. 10-15k is the norm. and no, that's not just light attacking. most people don't have reflexes, muscle memory and/or just plain old time it takes to perfect your rotation, while simultaneously making sure to keep up with mechanics

Orjix · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

And they should stick to the overland if that's how they feel.

Joining a group dungeon sort of implies you're someone who does enjoy that type of thing. You should be ready for the increased demand to be good if you do.

but what about someone who really WANTS to and ENJOYS dungeons. should he have to sacrifice one form of fun (his build) to have another form or fun (the dungeon?)

DMuehlhausen · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

I main a healer and farmed WGT a lot, even beaten it in hardmode veteran with random groups, but to get a group like that is equal to winning the lottery.

Often in dungeons it's a tedious and time-consuming battle, sometimes it feels like the dps heals the enemies, the glorious last boss in direfrost keep for instance that heals more than the dps do damage more often than not. And these are high CP players.

When I get a good dps group I still get surprised. In other games it wasn't like this , when I got a bad dps group it was rare. In eso it's reversed, why is it like this?

Is it because the "play as you want" mentality which screws over builds?

Is it the "I'm queing as a tank for veteran dungeons, but I'm an dps"

Is it because people don't know about rotation, skills that complement eatchother.

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

We need a sheet after eatch dungeon or trial run that show us dps and healing done, maybe then people actually see how bad they are and try to compensate. If 1 dps does 10 % of all damage and the other do 90 %. It will hopefully be a wakeup call to get better? Like K/D makes people play at their best in FPS games, and research weapons and kits to be competitive.

Why is it like this?

It's mostly because nobody is taking the time to teach people. Back at launch people couldn't get past FG 2 (there weren't "verteran" dungeons then). Well at this point, and a nerf, people understand the fight. Nobody is doing this though in the DLC dungeons. People are just leaving or kicking people after a couple wipes, so the majority of the people don't learn the fight.

I have done ICP numerous times. I just found out last night you can aim the grenades on Ibomez...never knew that before. Take time to teach the people that are struggling. This will make them happy, maybe give you some enjoyment, and increase the pool of people that know fights so the DLC dungeons become as easy as the original ones.

Now if you are politely explaining the fight and the people that aren't doing it tell you bugger off essentially vote kick or leave. They don't care, and are just probably there to waste your time.

GrigorijMalahevich · November 2017

OMG you main a healer, that must be very tough.

You are probably just too good for this game.

Pulling 15k dps is probably above average and in random dungeons is enough to complete non DLC HM vet dungeons...

Hell, I can easily do vMA flawless run with 10-15k dps

Gulnagel · November 2017

Rouven wrote: »

To use your soccer analogy - you cannot simply "play" as a goalkeeper in a professional league because they .. pardon me, don't play for fun.

So, the equivalent of a random soccer-game finder does not exist in the real world because . This would be more akin to applying for a guild with like minded people that share the same goals as you.

If however there would be the equivalent out there I bet we would have the same scenario and we would see a lot of goals. If we are still talking about the goalkeeper. Otherwise it might take a while until the ball comes even remotely close.

I never stated it was in a professional league, I mearly stated it wouldn't be fun for the players or the fans of a football team, even if it is a team that plays for fun, has a couple of fans, they still wouldn't find it funny if one of their teamplayers started to score goals in your own goal giving away points to the opponents.

When you join something as a team the "I play as I want" mentality have to go, since it is a team effort it is common courtesy to actually pull your weight and not ruin it for the others.

Gulnagel · November 2017

Orjix wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iselin wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

And they should stick to the overland if that's how they feel.

Joining a group dungeon sort of implies you're someone who does enjoy that type of thing. You should be ready for the increased demand to be good if you do.

but what about someone who really WANTS to and ENJOYS dungeons. should he have to sacrifice one form of fun (his build) to have another form or fun (the dungeon?)

Yes, since it is no longer about yourself it is about the team.