Why are people so bad at the game?

Linaleah · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

Some players are not obsessed about top dps and special sets. I even found a guy in my guild who is now lvl46 and still playing in random dropped armors and single non-set crafted weapon that someone did for him. When I asked him to make or offered to make a special set, he wasn't interested. Now considering such guy going into dungeon I can only imagine he gives a heck about how much dps he pulls or what others would think about his playing style. There are players and players. Must live with that.

Luckily you can kick people that ruins the game for the other players in the group ☺

well what ruins the game for me and a lot of other players is that one player that never. stops. complaining. about other. people. you are doing it wrong, and you are doing it wrong and you suck, and you suck and all the insults based on weapon choices rear their ugly little heads and this over-inflated sense of importance does as well. I would rather take it slow and steady with pleasant individuals. mind you.. not every better player is like that. I have ran with plenty who rather then complain - explained the mechanics and worked with what we had and those players are the reason why I no longer have anxiety attacks about pugging dungeons. but there are always these few, like OP and some others.. who ironically are the ones ruining experience for their group while completely and utterly convinced that they are the victim of other people being inconsiderate.

but.. as you said. luckily we can kick them.

WaltherCarraway · November 2017

Not everyone does copy and past meta builds from the Internet.

Bouldercleave · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Many people like myself consider this as a game (i.e. entertainment) and simply don't take it that seriously.

I have no desire to study game mechanics and meta builds just so I don't fall short of someones expectations that has nothing more to do than play 16 hours a day.

I spent a total of 16 years in school already and only play for entertainment, not to impress anyone with my leet skillz.

Well thank you for sharing your passive aggressive words of wisdom about no-lifers.

Have you ever stopped to think that "enjoyment" is subjective and some people enjoy playing games well because they're more fun that way? No? I didn't think you had.

And some people play them as well as they can but may not be up to the elitist standards. Many people lack the hand / eye coordination, reflexes, etc. It's not because they are bad, they will just never measure up to the top tier.

Did you ever consider that some people are just doing the best that they can? No? I didn't think you had.

Imza · November 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Seriously !!! - read the dang post before you reply!

CromulentForumID · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

Because your idea of "fun" is different from other people's idea of "fun" ...

Well I'm not good at football, if I swap out your goalkeeper in your favourite team and take his spot I might have a blast, but I promise you the fans won't feel the same way when I let in more goals than Brazil vs Germany.

Therefore I like to believe that the majority of people's perception of fun in a game like eso or any other mmos is to be able to clear content, get better gear and clear harder content the, build your character.

Yes some people are in it for the story but then stay there, don't go in to veteran RoM with 10 k health doing lightattacks and ruin the majority of players "fun"

Well, there's your problem. Most of the players are probably at:
"Clear Content."

Stop right there. That's it. See quest, do quest, do next quest.

I know several players who are just at that. They don't read quest dialog. They could not tell you what DPS stands for. Even if they could, they don't care. They see a marker on a map and run to the marker. You can probably guess how much they care about gear.

Why do they then go and try a dungeon?

Next time you play, pretend you know nothing about the group content's difficulty. You don't know anything about DPS checks or mechanics or anything other than how to press your buttons to attack things.

Start up the group finder. Queue up for something. Make note along the way of how many times difficulty or level or any kind of other warning pops up that you're not in for the "same old" you have been used to. Read everything carefully along the way.

Ask yourself: Would I have had any idea that I could be ruining fun? What told me that I shouldn't be doing this piece of content? Was the difference between "Veteran" and "normal" explained with more than a couple of words?

A game is terrible at itself if, to know anything more than a basic piece of information, I need to access outside information.

As an example, Guild Traders are a pretty key part of the game economy. Is the "house cut" versus the "listing fee" explained anywhere in the game? For that matter, does the game tell you how much of the house cut a guild actually keeps?

Is there anywhere in the game that tells you explicitly how your stat pool factors into damage calculations? Or even that it is a piece of that calculation in general?

In addition, how do you know the player did not ask other players about group content? I think we can both agree there is no small amount of bad advice floating around. And never rule out simple old trolling.

The main point of your argument is that the players know they are "screwing you over" and just don't care. If you had to honestly estimate what percentage of the people who "ruin fun" know what they are doing, what would that estimate be?

Iselin · November 2017

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Many people like myself consider this as a game (i.e. entertainment) and simply don't take it that seriously.

I have no desire to study game mechanics and meta builds just so I don't fall short of someones expectations that has nothing more to do than play 16 hours a day.

I spent a total of 16 years in school already and only play for entertainment, not to impress anyone with my leet skillz.

Well thank you for sharing your passive aggressive words of wisdom about no-lifers.

Have you ever stopped to think that "enjoyment" is subjective and some people enjoy playing games well because they're more fun that way? No? I didn't think you had.

And some people play them as well as they can but may not be up to the elitist standards. Many people lack the hand / eye coordination, reflexes, etc. It's not because they are bad, they will just never measure up to the top tier.

Did you ever consider that some people are just doing the best that they can? No? I didn't think you had.

Yes I have as a matter of fact since I happen to be nearly 70 years old lol.

It's not about reflexes nor animation cancelling. It's simply about building the character properly and not just pew-pewing light and heavy attacks with a bow, never using an actual class or weapon ability or God forbid, an ultimate.

Those are all things that can be easily learned by just asking some simple questions and have nothing whatsoever to do with hand/eye coordination or reflexes.

You don't have to be elite to pull your weight in a dungeon. Just don't suck and be passive aggressive about it. Or, here's a thought, just don't do dungeons if you can't handle that level of intensity... they're not required content, you know.

Tandor · November 2017

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Seriously !!! - read the dang post before you reply!

I didn't just read the post I was replying to, I quoted it. I responded specifically to the point you made about performance.

zaria · November 2017

AlnilamE wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Gulnagel wrote: »

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

Because your idea of "fun" is different from other people's idea of "fun" ...

Therefore I like to believe that the majority of people's perception of fun in a game like eso or any other mmos is to be able to clear content, get better gear and clear harder content the, build your character.

Completing zones, getting achievements like Lightbringer and Master Angler, or Monster Slayer.

Also consider that some people may end up in veteran RoM entirely by accident. Maybe because they think that as CP players they need to run Vet. Or they click on Random Vet Dungeon instead of Random Normal Dungeon (which I did last week and spent a bit more time at the last boss of Banished Cells II as I would have liked, but we ended up overcoming our bad luck and the inexperience of some of the group and we beat the boss, albeit 1 daedroth short of Hard Mode due to an overeager Twilight from one of our sorcs).

LOL. guild chat, request for healer for falchreach normal. group leader messed up and we got vet instead, all had decent cp so we thought we should try. First part was no issue who encouraged us. smooth up to second last boss there we wiped a couple time before figure out mechanics. Then came the last boss, or the eater of repair kits.
Think we spend 1 1/2 hour on him. Finally did it, group dps was not stellar, 40-45K something only noted it on wipes and its plenty of adds.
My main issue is low survival skill and its the only vet dlc dungeon I have done.

if I do random with that mistake i don't say anything if I have done dungeon in vet before well enough. If had dungeon and weak group I say I selected random vet by mistake and leave. "Sorry I thought this was normal. "

idk · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Considering the stronger players don't need a healer in vWGT HM I'd say the troubles OP is having is due to the experience of all 4 players in the group.

Experience comes with time and interest in improving. In most vet dungeons is just takes one decent player to carry the group though WGT does have a the Planar fight that does take a little bit more.

It is doable but the veteran dungeons are balanced after 2 dps 1 healer and 1 tank. If the dungeons wasn't class specific they would probably be a lot easier like dvelves.

To be able to solo content that's supposed to be cleared with 4 players is bad balancing, nothing else.

@Gulnagel

Not sure where you got the idea I said anything about going solo in vet dungeons, though there have been a small number of very skilled players that have cleared some of the vet dungeons solo. A strong player can overcome much in this game and others. Those threads in these forums complaining about groups from the GF are complaining because they are not strong enough to overcome newer players and those still figuring out the game. I have never found reason to kick a player other than AFK or a long disconnect.

Technically the 4 man dungeons are not balanced for the trinity as you suggest. That was a claim when the game was being hyped pre launch. From the early months of this game I healed dungeons with DPS on my back bar.

To this day when I heal a 4 man I have dps on my bar. With pugs I am often doing between 40-60% of the damage while still healing and putting out buffs, etc. Healing is one of the best roles to go into GF with due to that reason.

WrathOfInnos · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

We need a sheet after eatch dungeon or trial run that show us dps and healing done, maybe then people actually see how bad they are and try to compensate. If 1 dps does 10 % of all damage and the other do 90 %. It will hopefully be a wakeup call to get better?

This could actually be nice. I suspect that most of the players you are referring to are unaware that they are on your list.

The hardcore players already see these stats, so it would change nothing for them. The casual players most likely don't care so they would be free to ignore the stats. It's the in-between that would benefit, those that are learning the game but don't have DPS addons and target skeletons. They could see their performance grow as they get better gear and practice skill rotations. It could show up just like the window at the end of a battleground.

I'm sure there will be opposition to this, and some would rather not have their damage/healing revealed. Honestly though, all of this information is available already (on PC at least). Anyone who cares to can know your healing and DPS output within a reasonable margin of error, as well as what skills and gear you are using.

I think the big concern would be this resulting in more kicks, but if the stats only appeared at the end of the dungeon then it would already be too late to kick.

Imza · November 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

those who don't live in the US of A have a much higher ping and will never ever get the best dps (no mater what they do)

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Seriously !!! - read the dang post before you reply!

I didn't just read the post I was replying to, I quoted it. I responded specifically to the point you made about performance.

Where oh where did I mention the EU server?

Perhaps my mistake was that I didn't specificly specify the NA server... oh yes - Ass U Me - I keep forgetting that one

Try living in the south pacific - your ping to either NA or EU would be high and therefore you will NEVER get the best dps as it is literally not possible

Tandor · November 2017

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

those who don't live in the US of A have a much higher ping and will never ever get the best dps (no mater what they do)

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Seriously !!! - read the dang post before you reply!

I didn't just read the post I was replying to, I quoted it. I responded specifically to the point you made about performance.

Where oh where did I mention the EU server?

Perhaps my mistake was that I didn't specificly specify the NA server... oh yes - Ass U Me - I keep forgetting that one

Try living in the south pacific - your ping to either NA or EU would be high and therefore you will NEVER get the best dps as it is literally not possible

Precisely the point, you made a sweeping claim that unless a player lived in the US he would have a high ping, and I was simply pulling you up on the over-generalisation. Apologies if it upset you, no offence intended but it does get frustrating for European players when some US players forget that there's a whole world outside of the US of A

! Given that you're in the south pacific I can certainly sympathise, there are performance issues for those players in Australasia generally as well as Africa and the Middle East so I can appreciate that competitive play is difficult in those circumstances.

Imza · November 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

those who don't live in the US of A have a much higher ping and will never ever get the best dps (no mater what they do)

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Tandor wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Seriously? I get a much higher ping playing on the EU server because I don't live in the US of A?

Get over yourself. You need to get out a bit more, they do say that travel broadens the mind after all!

Ironically, given your comment, there seem to be far more complaints about lag and crashes from NA players on the NA servers than you get from EU players on the EU servers !

Seriously !!! - read the dang post before you reply!

I didn't just read the post I was replying to, I quoted it. I responded specifically to the point you made about performance.

Where oh where did I mention the EU server?

Perhaps my mistake was that I didn't specificly specify the NA server... oh yes - Ass U Me - I keep forgetting that one

Try living in the south pacific - your ping to either NA or EU would be high and therefore you will NEVER get the best dps as it is literally not possible

Precisely the point, you made a sweeping claim that unless a player lived in the US he would have a high ping, and I was simply pulling you up on the over-generalisation. Apologies if it upset you, no offence intended but it does get frustrating for European players when some US players forget that there's a whole world outside of the US of A ! Given that you're in the south pacific I can certainly sympathise, there are performance issues for those players in Australasia generally as well as Africa and the Middle East so I can appreciate that competitive play is difficult in those circumstances.

check the tag/spoiler - I play both EU and NA

Edit:

I was about CP630 before I ever did a group dungeon - nothing in the game prepared me for it

I was CP670 before I ever used the grouping tool.... and when I explained at the begining the group didn't listen - here was me saying "first timer" and not realising I was in a vet dungeon - and they also did hard mode..... at least we tried - we wiped about 12 times on the last boss before finally giving up

Linaleah · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Many people like myself consider this as a game (i.e. entertainment) and simply don't take it that seriously.

I have no desire to study game mechanics and meta builds just so I don't fall short of someones expectations that has nothing more to do than play 16 hours a day.

I spent a total of 16 years in school already and only play for entertainment, not to impress anyone with my leet skillz.

Well thank you for sharing your passive aggressive words of wisdom about no-lifers.

Have you ever stopped to think that "enjoyment" is subjective and some people enjoy playing games well because they're more fun that way? No? I didn't think you had.

And some people play them as well as they can but may not be up to the elitist standards. Many people lack the hand / eye coordination, reflexes, etc. It's not because they are bad, they will just never measure up to the top tier.

Did you ever consider that some people are just doing the best that they can? No? I didn't think you had.

Yes I have as a matter of fact since I happen to be nearly 70 years old lol.

It's not about reflexes nor animation cancelling. It's simply about building the character properly and not just pew-pewing light and heavy attacks with a bow, never using an actual class or weapon ability or God forbid, an ultimate.

Those are all things that can be easily learned by just asking some simple questions and have nothing whatsoever to do with hand/eye coordination or reflexes.

You don't have to be elite to pull your weight in a dungeon. Just don't suck and be passive aggressive about it. Or, here's a thought, just don't do dungeons if you can't handle that level of intensity... they're not required content, you know.

except. guess what. doing all that? the only time I ever see above 30k dps is on trash packs.

in ESO? it IS about hand/eye coordination and reflexes. because you know what this game doesn't have that a lot of other games do? sticky targeting. in this game - you have to aim. aim even a little off? no hit, no dps. in this game, the way abilities work - you cant just hit a bunch of keybinds and hope for the best. you have to fire up your rotation, precisely, deliberately and your timing needs to be perfect. players who pull 10 -15k in a dungeon? ARE pulling what weight they can. not just light or heavy attacking, ARE using class/weapon abilities and ultimates.

this game? is a hell of a lot more unforgiving than a lot of other games. I mess up my rotation in WoW? eh, not to bad, dps is still within normal range, it drops but it doesn't completely cave like it does in ESO. aiming is not an issue, as long as you are roughly facing the right way. don't even get me started on animation canceling. you absolutely positively HAVE to animation cancel in order to get anywhere near 30k single target, let alone above it. and its a very precise, very fiddly technique. ESO is the pinnacle of easy to play, difficult to master, but the thing is... very VERY few things in this game actualy require you to be a master.

Iselin · November 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Many people like myself consider this as a game (i.e. entertainment) and simply don't take it that seriously.

I have no desire to study game mechanics and meta builds just so I don't fall short of someones expectations that has nothing more to do than play 16 hours a day.

I spent a total of 16 years in school already and only play for entertainment, not to impress anyone with my leet skillz.

Well thank you for sharing your passive aggressive words of wisdom about no-lifers.

Have you ever stopped to think that "enjoyment" is subjective and some people enjoy playing games well because they're more fun that way? No? I didn't think you had.

And some people play them as well as they can but may not be up to the elitist standards. Many people lack the hand / eye coordination, reflexes, etc. It's not because they are bad, they will just never measure up to the top tier.

Did you ever consider that some people are just doing the best that they can? No? I didn't think you had.

Yes I have as a matter of fact since I happen to be nearly 70 years old lol.

It's not about reflexes nor animation cancelling. It's simply about building the character properly and not just pew-pewing light and heavy attacks with a bow, never using an actual class or weapon ability or God forbid, an ultimate.

Those are all things that can be easily learned by just asking some simple questions and have nothing whatsoever to do with hand/eye coordination or reflexes.

You don't have to be elite to pull your weight in a dungeon. Just don't suck and be passive aggressive about it. Or, here's a thought, just don't do dungeons if you can't handle that level of intensity... they're not required content, you know.

except. guess what. doing all that? the only time I ever see above 30k dps is on trash packs.

in ESO? it IS about hand/eye coordination and reflexes. because you know what this game doesn't have that a lot of other games do? sticky targeting. in this game - you have to aim. aim even a little off? no hit, no dps. in this game, the way abilities work - you cant just hit a bunch of keybinds and hope for the best. you have to fire up your rotation, precisely, deliberately and your timing needs to be perfect. players who pull 10 -15k in a dungeon? ARE pulling what weight they can. not just light or heavy attacking, ARE using class/weapon abilities and ultimates.

this game? is a hell of a lot more unforgiving than a lot of other games. I mess up my rotation in WoW? eh, not to bad, dps is still within normal range, it drops but it doesn't completely cave like it does in ESO. aiming is not an issue, as long as you are roughly facing the right way. don't even get me started on animation canceling. you absolutely positively HAVE to animation cancel in order to get anywhere near 30k single target, let alone above it. and its a very precise, very fiddly technique. ESO is the pinnacle of easy to play, difficult to master, but the thing is... very VERY few things in this game actualy require you to be a master.

Remind me which dungeon it is you need 30K DPS for again?

Cadbury · November 2017

Danksta wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Some people just don't care how good they are because being good and having fun don't correlate.

And they should stick to the overland if that's how they feel.

Joining a group dungeon sort of implies you're someone who does enjoy that type of thing. You should be ready for the increased demand to be good if you do.

I'm not condoning it, just answering a question with an extremely obvious answer. I agree that if you're going to join a group of random strangers you should at least have an interest in pulling your weight, but if you've ever been out in the real world you'd know that not everyone's that courteous.

This right here is probably the best answer. People are fickle creatures, and at the end of the day, they will do whatever they wish. And no amount of cajoling or begging will change that.

Linaleah · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Many people like myself consider this as a game (i.e. entertainment) and simply don't take it that seriously.

I have no desire to study game mechanics and meta builds just so I don't fall short of someones expectations that has nothing more to do than play 16 hours a day.

I spent a total of 16 years in school already and only play for entertainment, not to impress anyone with my leet skillz.

Well thank you for sharing your passive aggressive words of wisdom about no-lifers.

Have you ever stopped to think that "enjoyment" is subjective and some people enjoy playing games well because they're more fun that way? No? I didn't think you had.

And some people play them as well as they can but may not be up to the elitist standards. Many people lack the hand / eye coordination, reflexes, etc. It's not because they are bad, they will just never measure up to the top tier.

Did you ever consider that some people are just doing the best that they can? No? I didn't think you had.

Yes I have as a matter of fact since I happen to be nearly 70 years old lol.

It's not about reflexes nor animation cancelling. It's simply about building the character properly and not just pew-pewing light and heavy attacks with a bow, never using an actual class or weapon ability or God forbid, an ultimate.

Those are all things that can be easily learned by just asking some simple questions and have nothing whatsoever to do with hand/eye coordination or reflexes.

You don't have to be elite to pull your weight in a dungeon. Just don't suck and be passive aggressive about it. Or, here's a thought, just don't do dungeons if you can't handle that level of intensity... they're not required content, you know.

except. guess what. doing all that? the only time I ever see above 30k dps is on trash packs.

in ESO? it IS about hand/eye coordination and reflexes. because you know what this game doesn't have that a lot of other games do? sticky targeting. in this game - you have to aim. aim even a little off? no hit, no dps. in this game, the way abilities work - you cant just hit a bunch of keybinds and hope for the best. you have to fire up your rotation, precisely, deliberately and your timing needs to be perfect. players who pull 10 -15k in a dungeon? ARE pulling what weight they can. not just light or heavy attacking, ARE using class/weapon abilities and ultimates.

this game? is a hell of a lot more unforgiving than a lot of other games. I mess up my rotation in WoW? eh, not to bad, dps is still within normal range, it drops but it doesn't completely cave like it does in ESO. aiming is not an issue, as long as you are roughly facing the right way. don't even get me started on animation canceling. you absolutely positively HAVE to animation cancel in order to get anywhere near 30k single target, let alone above it. and its a very precise, very fiddly technique. ESO is the pinnacle of easy to play, difficult to master, but the thing is... very VERY few things in this game actualy require you to be a master.

Remind me which dungeon it is you need 30K DPS for again?

according to some people here? all of them, you know given that OP complains how terrible people are with their 10-15k dps.

from personal experience? DLC vet hardmodes/speedruns benefit from 30k+dps. and even then, only for the last boss, really, and its benefit, not required. outside of that, vet trials. everything else? not at all. which is kinda the point. for most content, 30k+ dps is not even remotely needed. they want it because it allows them to get it over with faster.

tell me something what DO you consider pulling your own weight. is it an arbitrary minimum. or is it a person genuinely doing THEIR best. I'm very happy for you that according to the vibe I'm getting from you - you best at 70 is better then my best at 40. that still doesn't mean that people who are no measuring up to an inflated standard - are not trying to pull their weight. and this is the rub, right there. for one person being considerate means being polite, not going afk at random, doing their best to follow mechanics, doing their best to play their class without completely sacrificing their fun on the altar of extreme efficiency, working within constrains of their personal ability. for other people - considerate means that everyone plays the meta at peak efficiency.

FakeFox · November 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I think the "problem" is that ESO does not promote performance focused gameplay and competition, resulting in a huge portion of the player-base not being interested in it or not even being aware. There are barely any guidelines, representative leaderboards and other measurements of performance in the game compared to other MMOs. I mean you can't even see others peoples DPS, skills or gear without them posting it. There is no way for new players to become good, without watching guides on other platforms, nothing tells them they are bad and should learn to weave and if they look at good players in game they can't see what they are doing either.

Something like a endcard aftrer a dungeon would be a good idea I think, however there is also a need for more tutorials on advanced mechanics in the game. Knowing you are bad is one thing, knowing how to change it another.

I think one of the main attractions is that ESO does not promote performance focused game play. The majority of players outside of PvP have little to no interest in competing with other players. They are simply having fun playing a game.

There is a multitude of ways for players to get better if they desire to do so. That they are not forced into it is one of the best aspects of this game.

I agree. Thats why I wrote problem in " ". It's totally fine if people don't want competition, however when those people enter content that requires a different mindset it creates a bad experience for both sides. That's where my actual problem lies and where ESO needs change in my opinion. Making the requirements more clear and giving people more accessible methods of learning should they want to.

Beardimus · November 2017

Yet another thread started by someone who shouldn't PUG anymore.

If you get frustrated with randoms, enjoying he game as they want to, then don't PUG. Join a guild and run with known guildies. Or start a guild and educate people if they want to improve.

Stating people are bad because they aren't your standard and or lecturing people that aren't interested doesn't help you or them

kringled_1 · November 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Anyway, It's not much of a "sacrifice." Once you have enough skill points you can train many different weapons and many different skills and use what's appropriate for what you're doing. All my stamina builds for example, have DW, 2HD, Bow and 1HD+S trained for when I want to PVP or DPS PVE or solo or do vMA...

It's only an issue when you're skill point starved because you're either low level, a grinder or both.

I use a great little add-on called SWAPS that makes switching builds dead simple.

Crafting will also leave you skill point starved for quite a long time. My main character (only one in CP levels) - CP337, I have all of my alliance questline done, all skyshards in AD zones and some of the other alliance zones, all public dungeon skyshards and group events other than vvardenfell...and I still do not have enough to really populate most of my weapon or class passives, and there are plenty of skills that I don't use enough to be able to afford to morph at this time. Just the non-consumable skills are eating up at least 50 skill points at this time for me, probably more.

I'm not really sure how my other characters will be once they hit CP levels since they're both quite low but even if you level to 50 via a mixture of activities, its certainly possible to be well behind on skill points as well, although maybe you'd count that as low level (although since CP is account wide it doesn't look like low level).

Since I'm running a tank in dungeons, I will second the recommendation (if applicable) to use an add-on for gear/skill changing. My normally poor dps plummets even further when I'm running 2 tank sets and S+B, and that's really not something I want to be doing for solo questing/delves/public dungeons etc.

kringled_1 · November 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Yes I have as a matter of fact since I happen to be nearly 70 years old lol.

It's not about reflexes nor animation cancelling. It's simply about building the character properly and not just pew-pewing light and heavy attacks with a bow, never using an actual class or weapon ability or God forbid, an ultimate.

Those are all things that can be easily learned by just asking some simple questions and have nothing whatsoever to do with hand/eye coordination or reflexes.

You don't have to be elite to pull your weight in a dungeon. Just don't suck and be passive aggressive about it. Or, here's a thought, just don't do dungeons if you can't handle that level of intensity... they're not required content, you know.

except. guess what. doing all that? the only time I ever see above 30k dps is on trash packs.

in ESO? it IS about hand/eye coordination and reflexes. because you know what this game doesn't have that a lot of other games do? sticky targeting. in this game - you have to aim. aim even a little off? no hit, no dps. in this game, the way abilities work - you cant just hit a bunch of keybinds and hope for the best. you have to fire up your rotation, precisely, deliberately and your timing needs to be perfect. players who pull 10 -15k in a dungeon? ARE pulling what weight they can. not just light or heavy attacking, ARE using class/weapon abilities and ultimates.

this game? is a hell of a lot more unforgiving than a lot of other games. I mess up my rotation in WoW? eh, not to bad, dps is still within normal range, it drops but it doesn't completely cave like it does in ESO. aiming is not an issue, as long as you are roughly facing the right way. don't even get me started on animation canceling. you absolutely positively HAVE to animation cancel in order to get anywhere near 30k single target, let alone above it. and its a very precise, very fiddly technique. ESO is the pinnacle of easy to play, difficult to master, but the thing is... very VERY few things in this game actualy require you to be a master.

Remind me which dungeon it is you need 30K DPS for again?

according to some people here? all of them, you know given that OP complains how terrible people are with their 10-15k dps.

from personal experience? DLC vet hardmodes/speedruns benefit from 30k+dps. and even then, only for the last boss, really, and its benefit, not required. outside of that, vet trials. everything else? not at all. which is kinda the point. for most content, 30k+ dps is not even remotely needed. they want it because it allows them to get it over with faster.

tell me something what DO you consider pulling your own weight. is it an arbitrary minimum. or is it a person genuinely doing THEIR best. I'm very happy for you that according to the vibe I'm getting from you - you best at 70 is better then my best at 40. that still doesn't mean that people who are no measuring up to an inflated standard - are not trying to pull their weight. and this is the rub, right there. for one person being considerate means being polite, not going afk at random, doing their best to follow mechanics, doing their best to play their class without completely sacrificing their fun on the altar of extreme efficiency, working within constrains of their personal ability. for other people - considerate means that everyone plays the meta at peak efficiency.

So far my own experience is closer to Linaleah's - in my normal questing gear I'm a lot closer to 6k single target. Seeing a number over 10 or 15 on combat metrics is something that only happens with multiple targets and aoe damage. I understand and share the dread of hearing bow light attacks only (my own use is mostly setting up endless hail and poison injection, then swapping to a 2H/DW melee bar). I mean, I'm aware enough that my damage is low that I would never join a vet dungeon as a dps, and I do know some things that I can do to improve damage output (gear is suboptimal, lacking a lot of skill points) but they aren't necessarily things I can fix quickly since tempers aren't cheap, and skill points take time to gain (at this point more skyshards than anything).
At this point, I'm tanking random dungeons with this character, since damage isn't as critical when tanking. (Although it's scary when I'm hitting 20-30% of group damage with S+B and 2 tank sets). I'll follow mechanics as much as I can, I'll listen, I am carrying appropriate gear and skills for a tank, and past that I hope for the best.

gabriebe · November 2017

The game content design is mostly geared toward end-game players, loyal users who have already invested a lot in the game, know the mechanics and are looking for something to keep them challenged and involved. Naturally, they also tend to be the ones spending the most money in-game and keep up with subscriptions.

It's very easy to see that the vanilla dungeons are really for everyone. Even VoM, what you'd think would be the hardest vanilla dungeon because it's in the last zone, is super easy. DLC dungeons, especially on hard mode, are a real challenge.

Pugging the vanilla dungeons is usually fine, it's the DLC ones that are nearly unpuggable. The game could use an in-game voice comm to ease it for new players though. Same for BGs, where randoms would have a little better chance against premade.

As for why some people are terrible, there's two things that stick the most to me.

Most of the difficult content is designed for people who know their rotations, are properly geared and can animation cancel. That takes time and skill. For people like me who play with a controller, weaving/animation cancelling is nearly impossible. The content is also designed for people with high CP, so inexperienced players are inherently disadvantaged.

Other thing to me is that the language used in the tool tip is really difficult to understand when theorycrafting. What exactly constitutes direct damage? What is critical damage? What is a charge ability? What's concussed status? How do I increase the value of my heal, is it magica or spell damage or both? You learn stuff like this over time, but the game should have an in-game help tool tip that pops up when you want to know more about certain information.

Stinkyremy · November 2017

Ertthewolf wrote: »

It's a video game.....Can you be good at it? Sure. But I'd rather practice my guitar a few hours to keep perfecting that. Or maybe go out with my wife for dinner and talk about real life things. I think this is most people's situation.

Also, ESO has many build options and play styles. Let em play as they want....Being overly competitive at something that burns up your time a few hours a night shouldn't be the major goal. The reason. It literally means nothing to be on a leaderboard and earn in game pixels that last until the game is old and something else comes out.

My two cents....

I'm with you, epeen and grasping at pixels seems to run deep in this game.
Similar to the mentality of the community certain FPS shooters.

Alexandrious · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

I main a healer and farmed WGT a lot, even beaten it in hardmode veteran with random groups, but to get a group like that is equal to winning the lottery.

Often in dungeons it's a tedious and time-consuming battle, sometimes it feels like the dps heals the enemies, the glorious last boss in direfrost keep for instance that heals more than the dps do damage more often than not. And these are high CP players.

When I get a good dps group I still get surprised. In other games it wasn't like this , when I got a bad dps group it was rare. In eso it's reversed, why is it like this?

Is it because the "play as you want" mentality which screws over builds?

Is it the "I'm queing as a tank for veteran dungeons, but I'm an dps"

Is it because people don't know about rotation, skills that complement eatchother.

Bottom line is, how fun can it be, being way over CP 300 and pull 5-15 K dps?

We need a sheet after eatch dungeon or trial run that show us dps and healing done, maybe then people actually see how bad they are and try to compensate. If 1 dps does 10 % of all damage and the other do 90 %. It will hopefully be a wakeup call to get better? Like K/D makes people play at their best in FPS games, and research weapons and kits to be competitive.

Why is it like this?

Ill sum up the majority problem for you in, two words.

Animation Canceling.

Kek

tommalmm · November 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

But in a pick-up game (pug group) nobody is expecting the goalkeeper to be great and after a few goals against the other players might even offer up a bit of advice or encouragement. A sweeper could adjust and fall back a bit more than normal to provide the goalkeeper some added support.

I do expect of people to perform what they've signed for. I'm not expecting 2x40k DPS and a stellar tank/heal, but there are some minima people ought to meet before signing up for vet dungeons. Nowhere in the dungeon finder description is a caption "use it only if you're a terrible player and want to be grouped up with others of your kind, wasting and hour and not completing the damn thing".

Fortunately, it's nowhere near that bad in majority of the cases. An average group is fine, thankfully.

I'm with the OP on this one. A performance chart should trigger after each boss fight with DPS/percent, deaths, healing done, healing received. Some people just don't have a clue how much they're carried. So when they end up in a group with others like them, it's always the group that sucks.

It's a group content after all, you either contribute or go kill some more wolves.

Gulnagel · November 2017

tommalmm wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

But in a pick-up game (pug group) nobody is expecting the goalkeeper to be great and after a few goals against the other players might even offer up a bit of advice or encouragement. A sweeper could adjust and fall back a bit more than normal to provide the goalkeeper some added support.

I do expect of people to perform what they've signed for. I'm not expecting 2x40k DPS and a stellar tank/heal, but there are some minima people ought to meet before signing up for vet dungeons. Nowhere in the dungeon finder description is a caption "use it only if you're a terrible player and want to be grouped up with others of your kind, wasting and hour and not completing the damn thing".

Fortunately, it's nowhere near that bad in majority of the cases. An average group is fine, thankfully.

I'm with the OP on this one. A performance chart should trigger after each boss fight with DPS/percent, deaths, healing done, healing received. Some people just don't have a clue how much they're carried. So when they end up in a group with others like them, it's always the group that sucks.

It's a group content after all, you either contribute or go kill some more wolves.

Agree 100%

Stinkyremy · November 2017

tommalmm wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

But in a pick-up game (pug group) nobody is expecting the goalkeeper to be great and after a few goals against the other players might even offer up a bit of advice or encouragement. A sweeper could adjust and fall back a bit more than normal to provide the goalkeeper some added support.

I do expect of people to perform what they've signed for. I'm not expecting 2x40k DPS and a stellar tank/heal, but there are some minima people ought to meet before signing up for vet dungeons. Nowhere in the dungeon finder description is a caption "use it only if you're a terrible player and want to be grouped up with others of your kind, wasting and hour and not completing the damn thing".

Fortunately, it's nowhere near that bad in majority of the cases. An average group is fine, thankfully.

I'm with the OP on this one. A performance chart should trigger after each boss fight with DPS/percent, deaths, healing done, healing received. Some people just don't have a clue how much they're carried. So when they end up in a group with others like them, it's always the group that sucks.

It's a group content after all, you either contribute or go kill some more wolves.

how about grouping based on your slayer achievement progress, that has to be a pretty good accuracy of how experienced one is in the specific dungeon, even if it was just farming it.
not that ZoS could manage that but it's a better way that the find cp 10 noobs in vwgt we have now

Gilvoth · November 2017

if you spend all of your time looking at how bad you think others are, then what do you think others see you as?

how about just doing your best in the group, and let things just happen as they will and stop trying to be God Mode and Rule over others in the Group you were lucky enough to be a part of.

Gulnagel · November 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you spend all of your time looking at how bad you think others are, then what do you think others see you as?

how about just doing your best in the group, and let things just happen as they will and stop trying to be God Mode and Rule over others in the Group you were lucky enough to be a part of.

I actually never thought of it like that, it all makes sense.

Now I will join all veteran DLC dungeons in groupfinder with my healer and run around picking up items. Healing, what is that? They should feel lucky to be in a group with me while I spam light and heavy attacks

Bouldercleave · November 2017

Gulnagel wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you spend all of your time looking at how bad you think others are, then what do you think others see you as?

how about just doing your best in the group, and let things just happen as they will and stop trying to be God Mode and Rule over others in the Group you were lucky enough to be a part of.

I actually never thought of it like that, it all makes sense.

Now I will join all veteran DLC dungeons in groupfinder with my healer and run around picking up items. Healing, what is that? They should feel lucky to be in a group with me while I spam light and heavy attacks

I assume that you missed the part where he said "do your best".