Tanking needs to be more attractive & it starts with making other classes more viable for the roll.

idk · November 2017

Hitting the bolded points since that is what OP is highlighting as the significant message.

DPS waiting for a group when using GF is pretty standards in most MMOs. It is tanks that must wait, or actually be decent, when it comes to getting into a raid group. Join a guild and run dungeons with them. That is the normal way to avoid dealing with the GF in most MMOs.

I do not think it is our concern if you going tank is extreme. Do it if you want. Any class can easily tank the dungeons, which goes to your first point.

Back to waiting for a GF queue to pop for a DPS. Please see the previous point.

Honestly, the post has zero to do with the title. It seems more about OP not wanting to tank and has no experience tanking. The part he quoted from another thread concerns a specific tank build which was easy street for resource management pre-moorwind. Since it required drastic changes most just stopped tanking on their NB. It is not that different than tanking on a Templar and there are players that still do that.

It really seems as though OP just does not want to tank and not sure any class would suit his desire for tanking since that desire is clearly not there.

DeathHouseInc · November 2017

idk wrote: »

Hitting the bolded points since that is what OP is highlighting as the significant message.

DPS waiting for a group when using GF is pretty standards in most MMOs. It is tanks that must wait, or actually be decent, when it comes to getting into a raid group. Join a guild and run dungeons with them. That is the normal way to avoid dealing with the GF in most MMOs.

I do not think it is our concern if you going tank is extreme. Do it if you want. Any class can easily tank the dungeons, which goes to your first point.

Back to waiting for a GF queue to pop for a DPS. Please see the previous point.

Honestly, the post has zero to do with the title. It seems more about OP not wanting to tank and has no experience tanking. The part he quoted from another thread concerns a specific tank build which was easy street for resource management pre-moorwind. Since it required drastic changes most just stopped tanking on their NB. It is not that different than tanking on a Templar and there are players that still do that.

It really seems as though OP just does not want to tank and not sure any class would suit his desire for tanking since that desire is clearly not there.

As to my desire for tanking it completely changed since trying it as stated. I think the game has a serious lack of skill variety and usefulness as a whole but it is glaringly obvious when trying all the classes as tank /shrug. Normal is easy street veterans and trials = a clear obvious division. In fact it is so obvious that expert players like you that are awesome at everything don;t even bother to make builds with the other classes.

2cents

GrumpyDuckling · November 2017

Attribute damage scaling is the main problem.

It makes the tanking in the game only useful if in a group. Overland solo questing and single person content like VMA are not designed for tanks. So unless a person only plays ESO in a group at all times, then they're better off not making a tank so they can enjoy all the content.

Even in PVP tanking is pretty useless unless you're running with a coordinated group.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

and Talons. and better block. and reflect. and fast defensive ultimates that help recovery health/stam/mag. Lets face it DK is overflowing with tanky skills. Unfortunately, they've robbed Templar of a lot of its tanking toolkit. The beginning of the end for me was Blinding Flashes, but it didn't end there. I'm still unhappy with Templar tanking and while I can make it workable it just doesn't feel right to me anymore. I can also attest to my disappointment in Sap tanking as a nightblade. My build for that has just faceplanted. I'm not sure what I want to do with that character any more. My Argonian Nightblade has been utterly redesigned so many times I'm losing faith in him. I've more or less given up on solutions because the directions the ZoS staff go with a lot of this stuff comes from out in left field. They have a trajectory in mind but I have no idea what it is and I have no means to think of any suggestions or thought in that regard. My biggest example in the realm of tanking is the suggestion that to resolve permablocking they simply lower the effects of blocking. This would have made stamina regeneration fine while blocking and it would have made things like high resistances and overcapping more meaningful. I'm in the 'I give up mode' though. I have a Nord Dk tank now - that's it. I do not tank with any of my other characters, 12 of whom have been tanks at one time or another. I frankly find Tanking boring now, I find it uninteresting, narrow and uninspired. This is not a knock to the Tankers of ESO, it is hopefully a wake up call to ZoS. This is literally the first game I've given up on tanking - purely because its not fun.

Qbiken · November 2017

Psyonico wrote: »

My only issue with tanks in this game (and everyone is going to say "duh") is that they contribute almost 0 DPS. When I queue random I often end up with low DPS DPSers, which makes matters worse since I then really feel like I'm not contributing, since I then have to whack away at mobs for a couple minutes watching their health bar not move.

Well, tanks contribute to the DPS in a way, by debuffing the boss (reducing resistance) and also by providing useful buffs to the group by either skill (like Warhorn) or with itemsets (like Alkosh, powerful assault etc...) So in a way, they provide a dps boost to the rest of the group.

Curragraigue · November 2017

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Nope the big thing that DKs have that makes them the one and only for main tank is Helping Hands. It lets DKs perma block which was supposed to be removed by no stam regen while blocking but is effectively still there because of that passive and CPs.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Nope the big thing that DKs have that makes them the one and only for main tank is Helping Hands. It lets DKs perma block which was supposed to be removed by no stam regen while blocking but is effectively still there because of that passive and CPs.

Wardens have their Netch so it is possible that advantage is no longer held by one class. Meanwhile Nightblades have lost their siphoning-based strength in this arena.

aeowulf · November 2017

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

What I would like to see happen:

Nightblades:

Dark Shades attacks teleport enemies to the player (dark shades target in-combat enemies furthest from the player). (Shadow Image morph stays the same and allows player to teleport).

i really like that, but to be more in keeping with NB, i'd suggest they run or teleport to the furthest enemy and 'fears' them towards the caster

EDIT: or they could apply taunt

aeowulf · November 2017

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Make 2h weapons count as 2 set pieces, and there will be a ton of ice staff tanks that can survive just as easily as DKs can. Add an ability that would allow to pull in enemies to the undaunted skill line, and make the blockade of frost immobilize all (non-player, if it would otherwise be a problem for pvp) enemies, not just chilled ones, and everyone will have access to everything that a tank needs to be effective.

most 2h weapons have a huge advantage which is they work from range. 2h sword being the exception and they have a closer. getting up close and personal and then having to dodge out of a ton of red stuff and ending up out of melee range is a big dps loss. DW is great on dummies but it is so tough in the real world compared to a ranged weapon it's unreal.

Curragraigue · November 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Nope the big thing that DKs have that makes them the one and only for main tank is Helping Hands. It lets DKs perma block which was supposed to be removed by no stam regen while blocking but is effectively still there because of that passive and CPs.

Wardens have their Netch so it is possible that advantage is no longer held by one class. Meanwhile Nightblades have lost their siphoning-based strength in this arena.

Been awhile since I have played my Warden but I seem to remember netch cast drops block. The NB skill required light attacks again dropping block. DK passive activates from Earthen Heart tree skill and the DK shield in Earthen Heart can be block cast.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Nope the big thing that DKs have that makes them the one and only for main tank is Helping Hands. It lets DKs perma block which was supposed to be removed by no stam regen while blocking but is effectively still there because of that passive and CPs.

Wardens have their Netch so it is possible that advantage is no longer held by one class. Meanwhile Nightblades have lost their siphoning-based strength in this arena.

Been awhile since I have played my Warden but I seem to remember netch cast drops block. The NB skill required light attacks again dropping block. DK passive activates from Earthen Heart tree skill and the DK shield in Earthen Heart can be block cast.

The netch has a long duration, making the dropping of block not so significant to be of any concern I imagine. The issue with siphoning strikes on the other hand is very different. This skill no longer sustains much of anything.

ZeroXFF · November 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Make 2h weapons count as 2 set pieces, and there will be a ton of ice staff tanks that can survive just as easily as DKs can. Add an ability that would allow to pull in enemies to the undaunted skill line, and make the blockade of frost immobilize all (non-player, if it would otherwise be a problem for pvp) enemies, not just chilled ones, and everyone will have access to everything that a tank needs to be effective.

most 2h weapons have a huge advantage which is they work from range. 2h sword being the exception and they have a closer. getting up close and personal and then having to dodge out of a ton of red stuff and ending up out of melee range is a big dps loss. DW is great on dummies but it is so tough in the real world compared to a ranged weapon it's unreal.

Except for Wardens all classes have something that can be used as a closer (DKs have a chains morph and an ultimate, Templars have a charge, NBs have a charge/teleport, Sorcs have a blink), so if a closer is something that you think compensates for not being ranged, almost everyone has access to it. Also, all classes have ranged abilities, and nobody is preventing you from going with a 2h weapon on the 2nd bar to have access to the 2h charge or a bow/staff for ranged attacks.

Besides, I have no problem with 2h weapons being proportionally nerfed (or DW being buffed) to compensate for the dps boost they would get from an additional 5p bonus, making them balance-wise the same as they are now compared to DW, that would be only fair. But this thread isn't about dps. It's just that the inability to have a 2nd 5p bonus is what hurts ice staff tanking a lot.

code65536 · November 2017

Sigh. There is nothing wrong with tanking in this game. And making the classes more equal in tanking isn't going to help with the queue problem. Everyone in this thread is barking up the wrong tree.

Experienced tanks avoid the group finder.
- I've tanked every vet trial in this game, but you will never see my trials tank in the group finder. Why not? Because tanks are at the mercy of the DPS. If I'm in a group with two "DPS" pulling 5K each, the dungeon is going to be a painful slog. For 4-man dungeons, good tanks cannot carry bad DPS, but good DPS can carry bad tanks. Tanks just aren't that important in 4-man content and there isn't much that a good tank can do to make the dungeon go faster if the rest of the group is bad. (Trials are a different matter though, of course.)
- For normal dungeons, I will queue my DPS as a tank. This is because with slotting Inner Fire on the back bar, I can hold aggro and survive while also doing DPS in a normal dungeon (which are almost all soloable anyway). So I'm not at the mercy of the group and I can carry the group and ensure that the group will always clear.
- For vet dungeons, I can't queue my DPS as a tank because for most vet dungeons, a proper tank is needed. Some dungeons you can do without a proper tank, but not all and it's going to be rough anyway. But if I queue my proper tank, then I am at the mercy of the group--if it's bad, I can't "carry" the group.
- So the end result is that I never PUG with my tank. I'll PUG with my DPS and I'll even wait the queue time, because I know if the group is bad, I can still carry it through to a relatively painless clear. But that's something that as a tank, I just don't have the ability to do: Even the best positioning and aggro management is worthless if I am stuck with DPS who spam light attacks. When I need to do a dungeon on my tank, I run with friends and guildies.
- This isn't just me--most tanks I know share this sentiment, where they just don't want to PUG.
People unfamiliar with tanking are afraid of the responsibility. Tell someone that your job is to take all the hits and survive, be the spearhead, handle positioning and be in charge of group tactics, a lot of people will just shy away from that. People have the impression that DPS is the "easier" job, free of any special responsibilities. This of course is not true for endgame play, but on the surface, it seems that way.
Everyone is a DPS by default. The game makes reasonable and necessary tradeoffs: in general, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice damage. This is absolutely the way it should be. A tank, as a support role, has to make that tradeoff. Which is fine. But most of the game is solo gameplay. And there is no room for support roles in solo gameplay. Why not? Because there is nobody for you to support! The very idea of a support role makes zero sense in solo gameplay. People love to complain about how vMA forces tanks and healers to spec out of tanking and healing, and I always scoff at those complaints: It's a solo gameplay, so why the hell are you using a support role when there is nobody to support. There is absolutely nothing wrong with vMA being DPS-biased for the simple fact that support roles make zero sense outside of group content. Of course, most of the solo content in this game is easy enough that someone speced as a support role can get through them. My trials tank can solo-kill a delve boss. But it's slow and annoying. Anyway, the point is that the questing and solo play that make up 95% of the game is not content for support roles. And that's just the way it is.

You'll notice that these three main reasons have absolutely nothing to do with class design, class balance, or even the design of the game. Frankly, those things are fine. Not perfect, but they're fine. You will always find a lack of support roles, and that's just because of the nature of support roles. This problem isn't unique in ESO nor is this problem caused by flaws in ESO's design. This is simply because (1) support roles by the nature of being support roles, have limited capacity to carry bad DPS (2) support roles carry responsibilities that people new to group content are probably afraid of and (3) support roles make no sense for the vast majority of the game's solo content where there is nothing to support.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2017

I think you're mistaking "lack of tanks" with "lack of good tanks."

It's not a boring playstyle, it's simply a different one. It will also give you a new appreciation for all sides & roles.

Currently I have 3 of 5 classes with four different tank setups, 2 Mag, 2 Stam. I've yet to try tanking with Sorc or NB.

They all have strengths and weaknesses. They all play differently & they all are effective. The trick is fine tuning each to make it effective. Figuring out the subtleties and making it work well is part of the allure.

aeowulf · November 2017

ZeroXFF wrote: »

[ Also, all classes have ranged abilities, and nobody is preventing you from going with a 2h weapon on the 2nd bar to have access to the 2h charge or a bow/staff for ranged attacks.

just like no one is preventing someone slotting ranged class abilities and two daggers (or swords) for the 5 piece (and utilising the twin blade & blunt passive). There actually used to be a lot of builds like this.

aeowulf · November 2017

Another answer for helping the queue is to have flexible group sizes from 3-6 player, scaling mob health depending on how many finder decides to bung in the group.

Does not help make tanking more attractive. Not even instant group finder does that for most.

Narvuntien · November 2017

Lots i agree with in this thread.

I play a templar tank and by play i mean never login to. If i want to do pleadges i'll log into them otherwise not. It is super interesting that no one ever wants to tank anywhere. I think it is clear the morrowind resource nerfs really killed the fun

Undaunted seems like a good place to put a chains variant same as for orb is for templars spears. Perhaps silver leash? Edit: no Trapping webs that skill is useless as is.

Man if the shadows for NB tanks grabed nearby enemies and pull them in (perhaps on a second activation) that would be wonderfully flavorful.

I like templars radiant ward though. Its my man shield. They just need a morph of spear that stuns!! What if the new solar barrage gave your group empower and not just you.

I think if you could place multiple volcanic runes it would be bad for PVP. But as a tankplar its my only cc option.

The whole dark magic sorc skill line needs a rework. Its just a bunch of skills that do the same thing. Stun or snare or imnobilise. Crystal frag was the best of them so they nerfed it instead of buffing or changing all the other skills. Any one of them could make a good chains variant.

Too many defensive sets with damage bonuses that unbalance PVP. If getting makes you deal more damage you are going to have a bad time. It makes it hard to reward Tanks for tanking when someone can take that bonus and go zerg busting in PVP.

Dks are basically the only class rewarded for tanking right now, when 80% of tanking consists of blowing agressive warhorn as much as possible.

ZeroXFF · November 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

[ Also, all classes have ranged abilities, and nobody is preventing you from going with a 2h weapon on the 2nd bar to have access to the 2h charge or a bow/staff for ranged attacks.

just like no one is preventing someone slotting ranged class abilities and two daggers (or swords) for the 5 piece (and utilising the twin blade & blunt passive). There actually used to be a lot of builds like this.

I repeat: This thread is not about DPS.

Using 2 daggers won't help tanks in any way. And even if we were to argue about dps, this wasn't the only point I made.

Yes, dpsers can do all kinds of fancy stuff, now I'd like to hear from you how a tank can start blocking using magicka and not lose the ~15% effectivenes one gets from a 5p set bonus. Because as it stands right now, a tank with 10k magicka and 25k stamina is much more effective than one with 25k magicka and 10k stamina.

Urza1234 · November 2017

Loc2262 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Maybe they should just do one class. Then nobody can complain that class A is better than class B at thing X.

Funny about that, when I first started playing ESO, coming from Skyrim, I was very surprised that I had to choose a "class" for my character. I was like, wait a minute, what? Am I not supposed to just put points into those of like 15 skill lines that I want to use?

You, everyone else, everyone else's dog, everyone else's dog's vet.

No one knows why they tried to merge guild wars with TES.

Like you we thought it was silly to have classes and that there would be issues.

Like you we were right.

Ulo · November 2017

At launch my NB tank was my main and we had many happy months together, but nerf after nerf has taken its toll and now even though i could still use him theres just no fun in it anymore and thats if a group doesnt pull out the torch and pitchforks on a non DK tank.

Urza1234 · November 2017

Ulo wrote: »

At launch my NB tank was my main and we had many happy months together, but nerf after nerf has taken its toll and now even though i could still use him theres just no fun in it anymore and thats if a group doesnt pull out the torch and pitchforks on a non DK tank.

Yeah I NB tanked for quite a while with the Swarm Mother, then I realized what a waste of time that was and that I should probably either roll warden/dk or kill myself.

idk · November 2017

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Hitting the bolded points since that is what OP is highlighting as the significant message.

DPS waiting for a group when using GF is pretty standards in most MMOs. It is tanks that must wait, or actually be decent, when it comes to getting into a raid group. Join a guild and run dungeons with them. That is the normal way to avoid dealing with the GF in most MMOs.

I do not think it is our concern if you going tank is extreme. Do it if you want. Any class can easily tank the dungeons, which goes to your first point.

Back to waiting for a GF queue to pop for a DPS. Please see the previous point.

Honestly, the post has zero to do with the title. It seems more about OP not wanting to tank and has no experience tanking. The part he quoted from another thread concerns a specific tank build which was easy street for resource management pre-moorwind. Since it required drastic changes most just stopped tanking on their NB. It is not that different than tanking on a Templar and there are players that still do that.

It really seems as though OP just does not want to tank and not sure any class would suit his desire for tanking since that desire is clearly not there.

As to my desire for tanking it completely changed since trying it as stated. I think the game has a serious lack of skill variety and usefulness as a whole but it is glaringly obvious when trying all the classes as tank /shrug. Normal is easy street veterans and trials = a clear obvious division. In fact it is so obvious that expert players like you that are awesome at everything don;t even bother to make builds with the other classes.

2cents

Thx but I am not an expert though I have spent time with a shield. Though I've tanked on mag and stam Templars, mag and stam NBs and DKs. I do have a warden tank as well. Before warden the Templar was probably the second best tank

For starters, what someoek finds interesting will vary but the regular 4 man variety of content isn't where the tank role shines. vMoL and vHoF is where tanking skills shine through.

Not sure what you really mean for skill variety but I probably change it skills more on a tank than a dps. Heck, dps in any game have one set rotation and that's pretty standard. Don't do that rotation and your hittIng like a wet noodle. ESO isn't that bad.

Zos has clearly stated they intend for classes to not be so equal in this he support roles. That's life.

In the end everyone has different interests and it still seems from this thread that it's really about the long queue DPS have to endure when using GF. As I probably said earlier, for a group via your guild or even in Zone when picking up your pledges. DPS are a dime a dozen for 4 man content and hence will wait in a the GF.

Strider__Roshin · November 2017

There's really no reason to run a tank outside of trials. Want to make tanking more desirable? Give me a reason to show you as a tank over a dps.

Thunderknuckles · November 2017

I'm another player who loves to tank with my DK. Don't spend much time on him, though, unless we're running dungeons primarily because the DPS is so dismal it's just plain tedious even doing overland quests. lol For certain, though, if you want almost insta pop queues then run a tank. Edited to mention that I mean the dps that tanks do.

Urza1234 · November 2017

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

I'm another player who loves to tank with my DK. Don't spend much time on him, though, unless we're running dungeons primarily because the DPS is so dismal it's just plain tedious. lol For certain, though, if you want almost insta pop queues then run a tank.

Yeah, TBH I tend not to queue for random dungeons because half the time the DPS are either really slow because they're potatoes, or they're really slow because they think they're gods and instead of letting me properly agro and group packs of enemies for AoE they Bolt Escape ahead of me so they can single target every trash mob one by one while giving the healer a heart attack.

After a while its just not worth fighting your own team.

paulsimonps · November 2017

code65536 wrote: »

Sigh. There is nothing wrong with tanking in this game. And making the classes more equal in tanking isn't going to help with the queue problem. Everyone in this thread is barking up the wrong tree.
Experienced tanks avoid the group finder.
I've tanked every vet trial in this game, but you will never see my trials tank in the group finder. Why not? Because tanks are at the mercy of the DPS. If I'm in a group with two "DPS" pulling 5K each, the dungeon is going to be a painful slog. For 4-man dungeons, good tanks cannot carry bad DPS, but good DPS can carry bad tanks. Tanks just aren't that important in 4-man content and there isn't much that a good tank can do to make the dungeon go faster if the rest of the group is bad. (Trials are a different matter though, of course.)

For normal dungeons, I will queue my DPS as a tank. This is because with slotting Inner Fire on the back bar, I can hold aggro and survive while also doing DPS in a normal dungeon (which are almost all soloable anyway). So I'm not at the mercy of the group and I can carry the group and ensure that the group will always clear.

For vet dungeons, I can't queue my DPS as a tank because for most vet dungeons, a proper tank is needed. Some dungeons you can do without a proper tank, but not all and it's going to be rough anyway. But if I queue my proper tank, then I am at the mercy of the group--if it's bad, I can't "carry" the group.

So the end result is that I never PUG with my tank. I'll PUG with my DPS and I'll even wait the queue time, because I know if the group is bad, I can still carry it through to a relatively painless clear. But that's something that as a tank, I just don't have the ability to do: Even the best positioning and aggro management is worthless if I am stuck with DPS who spam light attacks. When I need to do a dungeon on my tank, I run with friends and guildies.

This isn't just me--most tanks I know share this sentiment, where they just don't want to PUG.

People unfamiliar with tanking are afraid of the responsibility. Tell someone that your job is to take all the hits and survive, be the spearhead, handle positioning and be in charge of group tactics, a lot of people will just shy away from that. People have the impression that DPS is the "easier" job, free of any special responsibilities. This of course is not true for endgame play, but on the surface, it seems that way.

Everyone is a DPS by default. The game makes reasonable and necessary tradeoffs: in general, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice damage. This is absolutely the way it should be. A tank, as a support role, has to make that tradeoff. Which is fine. But most of the game is solo gameplay. And there is no room for support roles in solo gameplay. Why not? Because there is nobody for you to support! The very idea of a support role makes zero sense in solo gameplay. People love to complain about how vMA forces tanks and healers to spec out of tanking and healing, and I always scoff at those complaints: It's a solo gameplay, so why the hell are you using a support role when there is nobody to support. There is absolutely nothing wrong with vMA being DPS-biased for the simple fact that support roles make zero sense outside of group content. Of course, most of the solo content in this game is easy enough that someone speced as a support role can get through them. My trials tank can solo-kill a delve boss. But it's slow and annoying. Anyway, the point is that the questing and solo play that make up 95% of the game is not content for support roles. And that's just the way it is.

You'll notice that these three main reasons have absolutely nothing to do with class design, class balance, or even the design of the game. Frankly, those things are fine. Not perfect, but they're fine. You will always find a lack of support roles, and that's just because of the nature of support roles. This problem isn't unique in ESO nor is this problem caused by flaws in ESO's design. This is simply because (1) support roles by the nature of being support roles, have limited capacity to carry bad DPS (2) support roles carry responsibilities that people new to group content are probably afraid of and (3) support roles make no sense for the vast majority of the game's solo content where there is nothing to support.

Agreed, I will never PUG with my Tank, not gonna happen. I really don't know many, or if even any, that would do so.

For everyone, Tanking is not for everyone, if you think its boring then so be it, I for example think DPSing in a rotation based game like this is the epitome of BORING. I got 5 Tanks, one of each Class, and I like them all, they all got their flavor to them. I forgot the thread but there was a comment not long ago that show cased that all the classes have specific pro's and con's, they all have something the other classes do not. Don't be afraid to experiment and make a tank that you like. I mean my Templar Tank for example is an off Meta tank that is built to never block, I got as much Mitigation I could from other sources and used that instead just to see if I could. Have fun with it, don't just do what others do all the time.