Tanking needs to be more attractive & it starts with making other classes more viable for the roll.

DeathHouseInc

I stole this quote from another thread because it is exactly what I have just experienced. 80 minute routine wait times for my DPS characters drove me out of desperation to just get a dungeon to roll a tank. Played MMO's for 20 years now. Played a tank in all of those games since 0 times. Me going tank is extreme. The funny thing about it is I had a blast until I figured out exactly what the bold text in the quote I posted below says. I absolutely loved my NB tank in dungeons. It was such a fun play style for tanking and with some added utility skills it would have been a permanent for me. I decided before switching to tank after researching DK tanks and having lots of experience as stam DK that I would hate the boring play style and skill options of DK tank. So I chose NB because it sounded more fun as I looked at the builds I had made for tanking. I did not do the sap tank builds although it sounded like a lot of fun everyone said they are a thing of the past now since Morrowind.

Queing instantly was amazing so once I figured out NB wasn't going to work out for end game I made a warden tank. I have now maxed him out and have decided as I suspected it is just not as fun as I had on NB. I am bored of the play style and skill choices. I'd roll a Templar and try, but it is pretty clear at this point that is not worth the effort either. I am now back in the DPS pool rolling a stam warden experimental template, but I know it will just be a matter of time before I get tired of sitting and waiting for a group for all of my allotted play time.

aeowulf wrote: »

Sap tanks are no more. They were removed with morrowind sustain changes which were targetted mostly at NB, but affected templar as well. NB can still tank in the way that yes they can wear heavy armour and yes they can taunt, but the style of tanking known as 'sap tank' is gone. They now tank in a similar fashion to other classes without providing the same amount of group healing they previously did. This was their 'group utility' and until they are given some form of group utility back, I can't see NB being anything other than sub par tanks. I am waiting to see what is done with the skill tree's for NB in this regard.

Last night I queued in finder as DPS, selecting my dungeons as Vet daily pledge, normal DLC and one other Vet dungeon. 80 mins later i logged off not having found a group. The lack of tanks in this game really needs to be addressed by ZOS. Right now there are only two end game viable tank classes, DK and warden. Anyone picking a different class to tank wth at some point realises they will not be an end game trial tank on that class or that a different class can do it significantly better. In my case, I left the 'tank pool' and now my same main NB toon fills a spot in the already overpopulated DPS pool.

And/or ZOS should probably make tanking in general more attractive so more people play tanks.

bring on the skill tree rebalancing I say!

@aeowulf

Oakmontowls_ESO

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Betsararie

KRBMMO

Problem is you had ESO staff say about a year ago that DK is for tanking, Templar is for healing and sorc is for DPS. I guess NB was for 2015.

Their "balance" updates since then have just bit by bit destroyed anything that doesn't follow along these lines.

I actually think it's just like any other company where no one knows what the other department is doing.

DeathHouseInc

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

Yup it's pretty clear other tank classes can at least struggle on content and barely complete it. It is also clear that they can't do trials as effective or not at all.It's also pretty obvious that DK has great synergy in groups that other classes do not.

Woeler

Maybe they should just do one class. Then nobody can complain that class A is better than class B at thing X.

Loc2262

Woeler wrote: »

Maybe they should just do one class. Then nobody can complain that class A is better than class B at thing X.

Funny about that, when I first started playing ESO, coming from Skyrim, I was very surprised that I had to choose a "class" for my character. I was like, wait a minute, what? Am I not supposed to just put points into those of like 15 skill lines that I want to use?

Tonturri

Imo the lack of tanks is because tanking isn't as fun as the other roles. There's just....block and general upkeep. For an action-y game, I find I'm not terribly involved with my survivability as a tank the same way I'm involved with DPSing and healing on my other characters. If I screw up my DPS rotation, my damage output tanks (Hee) and not only is it extremely noticeable, but I can feel the lack of OOMPH. Same for healing if I screw something up. I've also found it's pretty hard to mess up being a tank (mechanics aside, but that's usually a constant across all roles)

The most fun I ever had on tanking was on my sap tank before the nerfs. I ran 22k health, heavy armor, and pretty much did my very best to do half a dps rotation and half a healer rotation without getting smashed. It was great - I could feel that my actions were really impacting my group, a big difference from just taunting everything, then holding block and trying to make sure the healer didn't even have to glance my way. My survivability and group support were very high, but could plummet and I would get smashed if I messed up.

The problem is I'm not sure how to do it in a way that doesn't break pvp. Meh.

I'm not quite sure how to put this...Hrm. I'd like my tanking to be more active, similar to how Death Knights and (IIRC) Demon Hunters in WoW compared to all the other tanks. For quite a while, DKs were spikier than the other tanks due to how they tanked, but a good DK was just lovely to watch.

TLDR tanking in pve feels very passive, send help.

Edit: I do think making other classes more fun stuff for tanking is something that can be done without breaking anything else, though I don't think it's the main problem.

SwimsWithMemes

I feel that with a slight change to Magicka tanking (i.e., making an Alteration staff that has support skills like a taunt, AoE Shield, a weaker version of Chains/Frost gate, group stealth, then a moderately weak spammable or something; and leaving Frost as a damage alternative)


you could then see Sorc tanks and more effective NB Sap tanks. Sorcs could shield stack in Light Armor, but they just risk being instagibbed if they get CCd by a boss. Then with the ability to move adds around, it would make all classes competitive tanks. Possibly something like Selene's Pull, where after a few seconds up to 4 enemies fly next to you. Maybe it is a channel so it can't be done on every boss?

Girl_Number8

I have had many different tankys that were unique fun builds. Though I just won't risk it anymore, to much work to be destroyed with whining nerfs. DK has more then earned it's place as my main tanky which I love and enjoy. Tanking is either something you like, or you don't.

Curragraigue

Both you and the person you quoted mentioned que times. I assume you therefore mean tank Vet Dungeons when you say end game despite the quoted person going on to talk about trials.

I have tanked Mag and Stam versions of every class to Undaunted 9 using group finder groups to do Vet Dungeons with the exception of Mag Temp (just levelling character 13 to max so I can do that as well). It is not only doable it is easily doable to tank Vet Dungeons using all classes and either Stam or Mag.

Trials are different. It is easier to do Trials with the main tank being a DK, there is no denying that. From what you are looking for though keep going with your NB tank. I agree with you they are probably the most dynamic and fun tanks to play in Vet Dungeons. There are also people that have main tanked Vet Trials using NBs so with practice and an accepting group it is possible to do that as well.

It is a little old now but here is a link to a guide I did for people like you that are DPS, want fast ques and don't want to be fake tanks:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/281446/curras-how-to-tank-guide/p1

If you have any questions about the sets and skills I'm running now on my tanks happy to help.

Jeremy

DeathHouseInc wrote: »

I stole this quote from another thread because it is exactly what I have just experienced. 80 minute routine wait times for my DPS characters drove me out of desperation to just get a dungeon to roll a tank. Played MMO's for 20 years now. Played a tank in all of those games since 0 times. Me going tank is extreme. The funny thing about it is I had a blast until I figured out exactly what the bold text in the quote I posted below says. I absolutely loved my NB tank in dungeons. It was such a fun play style for tanking and with some added utility skills it would have been a permanent for me. I decided before switching to tank after researching DK tanks and having lots of experience as stam DK that I would hate the boring play style and skill options of DK tank. So I chose NB because it sounded more fun as I looked at the builds I had made for tanking. I did not do the sap tank builds although it sounded like a lot of fun everyone said they are a thing of the past now since Morrowind.

Queing instantly was amazing so once I figured out NB wasn't going to work out for end game I made a warden tank. I have now maxed him out and have decided as I suspected it is just not as fun as I had on NB. I am bored of the play style and skill choices. I'd roll a Templar and try, but it is pretty clear at this point that is not worth the effort either. I am now back in the DPS pool rolling a stam warden experimental template, but I know it will just be a matter of time before I get tired of sitting and waiting for a group for all of my allotted play time.

aeowulf wrote: »

Sap tanks are no more. They were removed with morrowind sustain changes which were targetted mostly at NB, but affected templar as well. NB can still tank in the way that yes they can wear heavy armour and yes they can taunt, but the style of tanking known as 'sap tank' is gone. They now tank in a similar fashion to other classes without providing the same amount of group healing they previously did. This was their 'group utility' and until they are given some form of group utility back, I can't see NB being anything other than sub par tanks. I am waiting to see what is done with the skill tree's for NB in this regard.

Last night I queued in finder as DPS, selecting my dungeons as Vet daily pledge, normal DLC and one other Vet dungeon. 80 mins later i logged off not having found a group. The lack of tanks in this game really needs to be addressed by ZOS. Right now there are only two end game viable tank classes, DK and warden. Anyone picking a different class to tank wth at some point realises they will not be an end game trial tank on that class or that a different class can do it significantly better. In my case, I left the 'tank pool' and now my same main NB toon fills a spot in the already overpopulated DPS pool.

And/or ZOS should probably make tanking in general more attractive so more people play tanks.

bring on the skill tree rebalancing I say!

@aeowulf

I tank on my Templar a lot. It's more fun than healing in my opinion. Though I can see why people would say Dragon Knights are the better choice for the more difficult content.

I would just play as what you enjoy the most whether they are so-called sub bar or not. It's not as if you are going to be running the most difficult content all the time. So long as you get the job done I wouldn't let it bother you. This is a video game and your first and foremost goal should be to have fun.

Aquanova

OP, you know your inadvertently asking for DK nerfs right? That's how ZOS will make other classes more attractive for tanking by nerfing the best class. They did it with traits, skills and ultimate.

Let's just leave things alone for once.

Slick_007

Loc2262 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Maybe they should just do one class. Then nobody can complain that class A is better than class B at thing X.

Funny about that, when I first started playing ESO, coming from Skyrim, I was very surprised that I had to choose a "class" for my character. I was like, wait a minute, what? Am I not supposed to just put points into those of like 15 skill lines that I want to use?

i take it this was your first mmo then. yes it is very different to es4 and 5.

Narvuntien

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I have had many different tankys that were unique fun builds. Though I just won't risk it anymore, to much work to be destroyed with whining nerfs. DK has more then earned it's place as my main tanky which I love and enjoy. Tanking is either something you like, or you don't.

This is the thing.. you can play a non DK tank but they all got destroied in the morrowind nerfs.

No more Sap tank without leeching strikes, Templar tanks no longer have any CC, Sorc tanks got nerfed earlier.

The morrowind nerfs actually just slammed everyones unique and hybrid builds and multi role characters because now they have to spend too much, bar space or set stats space on sustain. So now the classes can only be use for thier original use.

Now there is some tentative changes to try and make each of the class skill lines into DPS, Tank and Healing but its a slow process of rebalancing the skill lines. There are so many useless and out classed class skills. Like how Sorcs have 3 CC abilities for dark magic skill line and people just take the best one and the rest completely useless.

ccfeeling

Good tank means he can tank in any environment and difficulty .
Especially VTRIAL and VDUN HM .
At the tough stage , you have to block , when you block you lose resource , so it's all about the resource management .
Good tank doesn't ask help much .
DK good at that , other class ? Bad

TBH , ZOS voice out diversity , but its just a illusion .

They nerfed and limited the resource from all class active and passive skills continuously since morrowind .

ArcaneBlue

and don't forget, for more people to roll tank characters, tanking needs to matter more. there currently are several untauntable or semi untauntable bosses in the game, and people always go like "but you don't need a tank to do dungeons, just have a healer and 3 dps, who cares" etc etc, and in some cases sadly it's true, although I myself like to have "the trinity".

my main is a healer but I do enjoy tanking as well, and it's saddening to see how tanking in this game is made somewhat redundant. I believe any class can tank, yes, but the role needs to have more weight_ I hope they'll make it so one day

Niobium

I see people saying "ZOS need to address the lack of tanks" etc but the reality is, most people don't want to tank. It's not about balancing. You could have all classes equally balanced towards tanking and you would *still* have 1 tank to 3 healers to 5 billion dps all queue'd at the same time.

This isn't an ESO problem, it's not even a gaming problem, it's a player mentality problem. People don't want to lead the group; all the glory, no responsibility.

Take a look at any game where players can, literally, be everything (The Secret World, I'm looking at you). To swap to a desired role is a click of the button. Guess the wait times in dungeon queue there. That's right, exactly the same. If you tank, it's insta-pop. And every single person was balanced there because everyone could choose everything.

What games need are less people afraid to lead and will just jump in anyway with no clue but are willing to learn. But sadly, after playing MMOs for some 20 or so years, the ratio between tank:heal:dps has remained constant, despite the game and whether or not it has a (balanced or imbalanced) class system.

elantaura

I used to tank and tank pugs daily. Then they did the big update with morrowind that nerfed resourses. They just sucked all the fun out of it for me. I ground hard to get top gear, gold it out to tank bad enough swapping around but that was my final straw. When I went from thinking, about buffs and heals rotating to sustain being a hybrid or sorts with health, stamina points. and not forgeting magic in a way and sustaining. to being a meat suit who threw shields - Yeah I "could" still tank but the fun is gone now, it's dull. So back to dps like everyone else. It's a shame as I really did enjoy it and did not mind puging either.

aeowulf

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

You can easily tank the vet dungeons with any class. The big thing that dk has over other classes is chains.

If it was just chains, all other classes would be viable end game tanks as nothing important can be chained anyway.

It's also AE root for trash crowd control, it's group utility and resource management.

Niobium wrote: »

I see people saying "ZOS need to address the lack of tanks" etc but the reality is, most people don't want to tank. It's not about balancing. You could have all classes equally balanced towards tanking and you would *still* have 1 tank to 3 healers to 5 billion dps all queue'd at the same time.

Most people don't want to tank in this game because not fun. It's boring as anything on a dk or warden and ridiculously difficult on a non-dk/warden. Sap tanks were fun & easy, they have been removed. They were not even end game viable, but they were the perfect vet PUG tank. Games like these are meant to be relaxing and fun. That's why there are no tanks left. The low numbers will mean dps stop playing or fake the finder. If tanking was fun, there would be more tanks (sap tanks WERE on the rise pre morrowind because they were both easy and fun) The death blow to them was the change to leeching strikes.

I have only ever played tanks in any MMORPG since the last millenium (EQ1), until these Morrowind changes. The changes to NB stopped me tanking and I switched my main to DPS. Bare in mind thats 18 years of only ever playing tanks. If i switched, i imagine lots switced too, or quit. I know loads of people who quit, both pve guilds i am in had to suddenly look outside to fill trial spots.

Look at Deltia, he was raving about his templar tank, and then quit with the changes because it was made not viable overnight. Look at Woeler & what he says about non-dk/warden tanks. Alcast has builds for literally everything, except non-dk/warden tanks, or non-templar/warden healers.

Spacemonkey

This may have been already said;

The problem with tanking is Damage Mitigation Ceiling
This is intentional and as designed because great tanks were going in PvP and simply could not be killed. Same as an abundance of healers in PvP made them nerf healing HARD across the board in PvP. The role triangle does not work in ESO PvP. So DPS is un-restrained, Healing is halved and Tanks suffer a FLAT ceiling that is honestly easily attainable by any sub-tank.

What this does is forces end game tanks to relie on specific sets of abilities that work around dmg shields, regen - and mob control abilities; The fact that bosses in PvE are immune to 99% of all effects doesnt help (reflects, status, etc...). And these abilities are found in the DK and Warden trees.

Templars can pull it off but will never be as great because they lack aggro (as a tank) - and too many of their abilities are sub-par because of their effects (that won't work on bosses). I main a templar tank and do well (I think) in vet dungeons, but trials would probably be too hard on resource management. Thing is I could easily pump up to 40k res. Its pointless to go over 33k. Why? Is it pointless to go over 4k weap dmg as a dps? no, there isn't any ceiling there. Why is there one on res? If Tanks could really stack on the buffs and res, it would really open doors to crazy builds and let tanks help our there teams in a way more versatile way. Not to mention open doors to different team playstyles.

But no. Eso is built around DPS. - so Tanking and Healing suffers. They are support classes to the DPSes and not the other way around.

Alchemical

I turned to tanking in my previous MMO because after a decade as a high end raid healer I got sick of tanks dumb as door nails. I knew how to do their job better than them, so I did it. The thing was that there were interesting tanking gimmicks and classes dedicated to tanking in that game that made it enjoyable to pick up.

ESO just kind of lacks 'fun' tanking, in my opinion. Because class identity is pretty weak, and role identity is ambiguous at best, there's not really a definitive tank that stands out and makes me say "Yeah, I wanna play THAT!" It's just... a slightly different build of whatever I've already got, and I've already got a build so why change it? There's no incentive, it's not particularly enjoyable, and the tank is the first to get yelled at when it all hits the fan. Why subject myself to the abuse if it's not fun?

Most of my healers end up tanking in pugs anyway

Fuxo

Tanking is mainly about resource management. The problem is that easy sustain = permablocking in PvP. They need to change the way how block cost is calculated and how it functions. For example, if they removed 360 degree block and decrease block chance /damage mitigation based on the number of opponents. Only then they'll have some freedom in the design around tanking.

BuddyAces

Falls back to the whole pve\pvp thing. They buff other classes to tank and suddenly pvp people are screaming that class X can not be killed while they mow through hordes of other players. Literally every single balance in this game is because they can't/won't balance the 2 seperately.

Also, dungeon tanking on a dk is the single most easy class to play. If half the folks who sat in Q knew how easy it was to tank then we'd have more tanks than anything else. You can literally use any combination of heavy armor in game and as long as you throw on a self heal and use a sword&board all you have to worry about is keeping aggro. There's maybe a handful of fights (vet dungeons not trials) where if you have a bad group that you may have to actualy fire up your brain.

Khenarthi

I loved to tank on my NB, but shelved her for group content in Morrowind patch. I am slowly working on her again as DD but I must admit to be mediocre at that role.

Also slowly, I am working on all my characters as tanks, because it's my favourite role in group situations. However this means having two sets of skills and gear for each character (otherwise even overworld mobs are slow to die) which is hard on skill points and inventory.

Psyonico

My only issue with tanks in this game (and everyone is going to say "duh") is that they contribute almost 0 DPS. When I queue random I often end up with low DPS DPSers, which makes matters worse since I then really feel like I'm not contributing, since I then have to whack away at mobs for a couple minutes watching their health bar not move.

Jeremy

Psyonico wrote: »

My only issue with tanks in this game (and everyone is going to say "duh") is that they contribute almost 0 DPS. When I queue random I often end up with low DPS DPSers, which makes matters worse since I then really feel like I'm not contributing, since I then have to whack away at mobs for a couple minutes watching their health bar not move.

True. It's hard to carry groups as a tank if the group has poor DPS and you are doing a dungeon that has a particularly punishing DPS race. But in my experience it's still the best role for carrying because you have the defense to live through almost anything and can eventually win in most cases.

Solexe

Tonturri wrote: »

Imo the lack of tanks is because tanking isn't as fun as the other roles. There's just....block and general upkeep. For an action-y game, I find I'm not terribly involved with my survivability as a tank the same way I'm involved with DPSing and healing on my other characters. If I screw up my DPS rotation, my damage output tanks (Hee) and not only is it extremely noticeable, but I can feel the lack of OOMPH. Same for healing if I screw something up. I've also found it's pretty hard to mess up being a tank (mechanics aside, but that's usually a constant across all roles)

The most fun I ever had on tanking was on my sap tank before the nerfs. I ran 22k health, heavy armor, and pretty much did my very best to do half a dps rotation and half a healer rotation without getting smashed. It was great - I could feel that my actions were really impacting my group, a big difference from just taunting everything, then holding block and trying to make sure the healer didn't even have to glance my way. My survivability and group support were very high, but could plummet and I would get smashed if I messed up.

The problem is I'm not sure how to do it in a way that doesn't break pvp. Meh.

I'm not quite sure how to put this...Hrm. I'd like my tanking to be more active, similar to how Death Knights and (IIRC) Demon Hunters in WoW compared to all the other tanks. For quite a while, DKs were spikier than the other tanks due to how they tanked, but a good DK was just lovely to watch.

TLDR tanking in pve feels very passive, send help.

Edit: I do think making other classes more fun stuff for tanking is something that can be done without breaking anything else, though I don't think it's the main problem.

Kind of agree to a degree. Main problem IMO is that the player base is far less forgiving of bad tanks (and heals to a lesser degree) than bad dps. This is understandable but makes queing as those roles when you're a newb intimidating. Moral: be nice to inexperienced tanks(and lesser degree heals [as someone who loves heals, this is the easiest mmo to play heals I've experienced so im a tad less forgiving there])

ak_pvp

Warden and templar are as tanky as DKs. Even NB has a niche with good ulti gen and blur. All these classes can tank and sustain just as well as DKs. Warden and NB can even ult as well. The only thing DKs have above them is chains. Portal is eh. I would hate to lose the last tank DK special skill.

Only sorc would I say that tanking isn't viable.

TBH I think ZOSs changes to tanking forcing pure meatshields ruined it a little. Bufftanking was good.

kojou

I have a Magicka Warden tank that is a lot of fun. Especially now that I can lay down 3 portals at a time. I still prefer my DK tank for straight forward tanking, but I think the Warden tank is pretty viable.

Nightblade/Templar/Sorcerer tanks need a way to bring in trash, and support the group a little better in order to be considered viable tanks.

What I would like to see happen:

Nightblades:

Dark Shades attacks teleport enemies to the player (dark shades target in-combat enemies furthest from the player). (Shadow Image morph stays the same and allows player to teleport).
Remove the "Low Health" requirement on Consuming Darkness synergy.
Add Synergy to Refreshing path that shields allies standing in it for 6 seconds for X% of their max health.

Templars:

Radiant Ward - (in addition to what it already does) suns rays pull in enemies that attack while shield is up. 1 second Cool Down.

Sorcerers:

Daedric Tomb - Mines also teleport enemies to player upon activation.
Crystal Blast - Make instant cast, lower damage, add effect to shield ally closest to targeted enemy for x% of max health.

I think that would add an element that would make each class have something special to offer as a tank instead of feeling like I am trying to put a square peg in a round hole when I try to tank with anything that is not a DK.

ZeroXFF

Make 2h weapons count as 2 set pieces, and there will be a ton of ice staff tanks that can survive just as easily as DKs can. Add an ability that would allow to pull in enemies to the undaunted skill line, and make the blockade of frost immobilize all (non-player, if it would otherwise be a problem for pvp) enemies, not just chilled ones, and everyone will have access to everything that a tank needs to be effective.

The ability to cast more than one volcanic rune (mages guild skill), or have it trigger instantly after casting it, would also make life much easier when I have to interrupt stone shapers in vRoM HM on my templar tank.

Lower stamina cost on low slash would also be heaven sent, because right now I can't afford to use it on a magicka tank, which obviously makes it difficult to become a viable trial tank when I can't reliably apply minor maim without losing the ability to block and roll dodge. Alternatively some CP perk could be adjusted to apply minor maim for 8+ seconds while bashing. Replace ensnare, for example, because a 33% chance of applying a super weak snare that also only lasts 3s is absolutely useless, even in pvp. That would also work well with the bashing focus in the same constellation. Or shadowstrike, because a 2.5 sec invisibility on a killing blow with a heavy attack is just an insult to anyone spending 120 points in that tree. It's probably the most useless CP perk at all, not to mention among the 120 CP ones.