Solariken wrote: »

I just don't understand why people don't like PvP, especially in ESO which has such excellent, active, dynamic combat that really shines in PvP where anything can happen. There's a big sandbox for people who like to play at war and there are BG's for people who like small-scale objectives.

Yes, "gitting gud" is a barrier to entry in some ways, but in my opinion it's no more an issue for PvP than learning vMA or learning to pull the DPS needed for vet trials.

What is so awful that makes the road to unlocking Caltrops such an unbearable slog? I'm genuinely curious for any who would answer this (and tag me in case I forget about the thread).

This is a fair question and I can answer for me and the elf I discussed above.

The key is in your second paragraph - no more issue than VMA or Trials. Agree. I have no interest in those either! My elven bow/bow stamsorc likes to ride her horse at a walk through the beauty of Auridon. To explore delves and public dungeons. To sometimes informally join others for dolmens and WBs. She does waaay better than simply plinking her bows but she is neither qualified nor interested in PvP, Trials or anything that has the word 'vet' in it. And she loves her life in Tamriel! Simply a matter of what a player wants and enjoys. There is plenty for all interests. Now, a fair question that remains is why, then, would she want Vigor/Caltrops? Curiosity prompted her to get Vigor. With that curiosity satisfied and confirming she didn't care for Cyrodiil/PvP, she realized she indeed didn't need either of those skills. Cheers.

The PvE players in this thread are going straight snowflake mode. "REMOVE IT, BURN IT, ANYTHING, PLEASE NO MORE PVP!!!11!!1!1!!".

Although I'm certain there are people who just cannot bear the idea of competing against another person, I'm sure there are just as many people who like the concept of PvP—just not ESO's version of PvP. Perhaps this could bring forth some needed changes to Cyrodiil? Spice things up a bit? New objectives, new rewards, new keeps, new ranks, new (PvP oriented) skills. Something? Hey maybe we could expand Cyrodiil itself—HEY MAYBE WE COULD HAVE BRAVIL? Guys? Bravil...?

Oh wait, it's Zo$.

Sixty5 wrote: »

Honestly the biggest reason I am opposed to moving those skills away from PVP is because they act as an incentive to get people to try PVP in this game.

Yeah that argument holds up only on their first character... their subsequent 13 still have to "try' PVP even if they've already determined they hate it.

I'm not among those asking for it, I'm genuinely okay with things being PVP only. I just think the idea that this incentivizes people to "try PVP" is wrong.

sevomd69 wrote: »

You're AP fodder...an easy target...

So this is where a PVP player gets his kicks, killing players that do not care about PVP at all? You're so weak then, my friend

I took my stamblade to Cyrodiil and now she has Vigor. She also has exactly 1 pvp kill, an Altmer Sorc. Who says their op?

It wasn't fun but it wasn't bad. Might continue even after Caltrops but I don't think so.

I hate PvP. I pushed 8 or 9 toons through it to get various things and I still hate it. Half the time, things are so crazy that lag kills you... the other half you're riding between where you are and where you want to be only to get there and have to turn around or go elsewhere.

Put the skills in something that can be leveled up another way, or allow you to level up (without AP) the PvP skills lines through daily quests - like the fighter's guild, mage guild, theives guild and dark brotherhood dailies level those skill lines.

To the OP, in general the company doesn't like to go back and put billable hours into fixing things that work. What I'd suggest if you really can't stand pvping a few hours is just go to a contested keep, find a safe spot inside, steath and tab out to do something else for 10 minutes, tab in do a few light attacks or move on to another contested keep, you can get your unlock fast and don't have to really participate in anything.

If anyone fusses about this, don't worry, there isn't a GO in cyrodiil who hasn't done this at several points in time. Get carried, ride the PVP bus and love it.

Just for OP and anyone who doesn't know this, ZoS made Caltrops and Vigor stupid easy to get now. They DID change it for PvE'ers to be easier to get. At Launch, they were way down the skill tree and took a LOT of PvPing to get.

Is ESO a PvE Game with just a small PvP element?? NO!
I just went back through the Bethesda / ZoS promo videos going back to Oct 2012, and "The War in Cyrodiil" was a major focal point in all their pre-relese ad's and promotions.
(Just a personal note: I sure miss Paul Sage and Nick Konkle...lol)

Ashtaris wrote: »

Why not have both a PVP option (Caltrops) and PVE option that basically does the same thing? There are a few skills on the Undaunted skill line that hardly nobody ever uses like Trapping Webs. That could easily be modified to have basically the same snares and damage as Caltrops. Make it only obtainable by reaching about the same level of experience doing dungeons as required for Caltrops in PVP.

They would literally have to mirror the lines then - cos there's stuff on that undaunted line that as a PVPer, I would love to get just by Pvping.

kargen27 wrote: »

"Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you?"

Wrong question and wrong people asked. The question is why would ZoS require something used in PvP to be acquired in PvE and why require PvP for a skill people might want for PvE.

The answer is simple. They want players to play as much content as possible. The reason they want you playing all kinds of content? The more content you play and the more content you repeat the stronger the game.

Back to your question. Why do PvP'rs want to keep Caltrops in Cyrodiil? Some for no other reason than they have to PvE so want you to have to PvP. Some actually hope some of these players new to PvP will come to like it and stick around. Doesn't matter their reason though because the reason Caltrops is locked behind PvP is it is good for the game.

I was going to write something similar to this but don't need to, since you are spot on here! And I actually agree that it is good for the game. I participate in both PvE and PvP but it took me years to have the time or the interest to PvP.

I can add a few other observations:

• There are way more abilities behind a PvE wall. So I honestly don't quite understand this whole conversation. Why would PvP be segmented out and not offer anything that can be used across the whole game, as happens in PvE? In order to "fix" this, ZOS would have to re-do all of the skill trees so nothing useful is obtainable in any of these specialized trees, and that seems like a lot less fun.
• My PvP main still doesn't have the meteor ultimate from the Mage's Guild line because I don't feel like running around and grabbing a bunch of books so I can advance the skill line. She doesn't have Dawnbreaker, either. Do the Mage's Guild, Undaunted, and Fighter's Guild lines need to be re-worked because they have abilities useful in PvP and you must PvE your way through them?
• Almost all of the Assault skills can be useful in PvE (not just Caltrops), and I use them there. If anything, I'd like to see more of the Support skills and some of the passives on either line be more universally useful.
• I can see why PvE'rs can dislike PvP in the beginning especially... I did. My issue actually stemmed from feeling like I couldn't do anything on my own, and I would get frustrated when I had run for what felt like forever only to get ganked or immediately die and, you guessed it, run some more. I hated all the running; sometimes all of the time I had allotted to play would just involve running to try and find action and it was very, very unsatisfying. PvE "immediate action" seems much more accessible. There is a bigger learning curve, imo, for PvP. You need a fast horse, you need to watch zone chat, and getting around can be incredibly difficult if your faction is doing poorly and doesn't have much of the map. You get four repeatable quests and two of them are things that are likely unobtainable, even with a group, because the faction is focusing on winning the campaign, not quests.
• I am not sure how to remedy this short of suggesting that the quests be a little more creative. "Participate in a battle that last more than five minutes." "Deal x damage to a door or wall with a siege weapon." Objectives that help and reward people to participate where the action IS in Cyrodiil, rather than giving them goals that make no sense.

peacenote wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you?"

Wrong question and wrong people asked. The question is why would ZoS require something used in PvP to be acquired in PvE and why require PvP for a skill people might want for PvE.

The answer is simple. They want players to play as much content as possible. The reason they want you playing all kinds of content? The more content you play and the more content you repeat the stronger the game.

Back to your question. Why do PvP'rs want to keep Caltrops in Cyrodiil? Some for no other reason than they have to PvE so want you to have to PvP. Some actually hope some of these players new to PvP will come to like it and stick around. Doesn't matter their reason though because the reason Caltrops is locked behind PvP is it is good for the game.

I was going to write something similar to this but don't need to, since you are spot on here! And I actually agree that it is good for the game. I participate in both PvE and PvP but it took me years to have the time or the interest to PvP.

I can add a few other observations:

• There are way more abilities behind a PvE wall. So I honestly don't quite understand this whole conversation. Why would PvP be segmented out and not offer anything that can be used across the whole game, as happens in PvE? In order to "fix" this, ZOS would have to re-do all of the skill trees so nothing useful is obtainable in any of these specialized trees, and that seems like a lot less fun.
• My PvP main still doesn't have the meteor ultimate from the Mage's Guild line because I don't feel like running around and grabbing a bunch of books so I can advance the skill line. She doesn't have Dawnbreaker, either. Do the Mage's Guild, Undaunted, and Fighter's Guild lines need to be re-worked because they have abilities useful in PvP and you must PvE your way through them?
• Almost all of the Assault skills can be useful in PvE (not just Caltrops), and I use them there. If anything, I'd like to see more of the Support skills and some of the passives on either line be more universally useful.
• I can see why PvE'rs can dislike PvP in the beginning especially... I did. My issue actually stemmed from feeling like I couldn't do anything on my own, and I would get frustrated when I had run for what felt like forever only to get ganked or immediately die and, you guessed it, run some more. I hated all the running; sometimes all of the time I had allotted to play would just involve running to try and find action and it was very, very unsatisfying. PvE "immediate action" seems much more accessible. There is a bigger learning curve, imo, for PvP. You need a fast horse, you need to watch zone chat, and getting around can be incredibly difficult if your faction is doing poorly and doesn't have much of the map. You get four repeatable quests and two of them are things that are likely unobtainable, even with a group, because the faction is focusing on winning the campaign, not quests.
• I am not sure how to remedy this short of suggesting that the quests be a little more creative. "Participate in a battle that last more than five minutes." "Deal x damage to a door or wall with a siege weapon." Objectives that help and reward people to participate where the action IS in Cyrodiil, rather than giving them goals that make no sense.

Yeah, the quests are weird.. I only ever bother with the 'kill x players' quests now - the other just aren't worth the time of running miles out of your way for a measly bit of xp and AP.. would much rather be actually Pvping.

tizodd wrote: »

...
Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you? I was nothing but a weak link the entire time. I had no desire to "git gud" at pvp...I was only there to get an ability and gtfo. I didn't care to learn strategies or lookup pvp builds. Cyrodiil was just a means to an end. I was literally a dps DK with a healing staff and a bow. I understand people tend to have a natural aversion to change, but being against making Caltrops and/or Vigor obtainable via pve seems counterproductive for a pvp'er.
...

Suffer from a severe anxiety disorder,
and the view you express here basically sums up the view that kept me from running dungeons,
hated the whole prospect of grinding out undaunted
and dreaded the idea of holding back/slowing down experienced teams while being the overleveled noob learning for the first time
took me a lot of therapy to get to a place where running them at all became an option,
so you may be ahead of me with regard to being able to harness motivation

as soon as a character maxes the Undaunted line, immediately stop running pledges on that character

not actually saying this as a "oh pvpers suffer too"
since my situation is not likely 'typical'
just putting it out there
since you mentioned a natural aversion to change
but may not be reflective of how your own natural aversion to change informs your view of the situation

tizodd wrote: »

...
What I'm saying is: if there were no pve'ers in your ranks who are only there to unlock an ability, Cyrodiil would be filled with people with an interest in pvp...people who want to be good at pvp and take it seriously. ...

Sounds stuck up, elitist, and horrible
like the contrast between Quick Play and Competitive in Overwatch
or if the only group PvE content in game was Vet Trials
would lose interest in Cyrodiil if everyone there was taking things seriously

tizodd wrote: »

...
Wouldn't Cyrodiil be more fun/engaging for pvp'ers if everyone one there had a genuine interest in pvp?
...

Maybe, but hardcore obsessive pvpers are not the only people in Cyrodiil,
if such people make you feel like you don't belong, *** 'em

tizodd wrote: »

...
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get more people who totally miss the point and parrot "but pvp'ers have to do pve bla bla bla" bs. ...

But PvP'ers suffer in a similar manner

Biro123 wrote: »

That said, I think that the undaunted and PVP skill lines should be at account level.. That way, having tried that activity enough to fully level that line should be enough to be fairly sure whether you do or don't want to do that kind of activity anymore - so it shouldn't keep forcing PVEers to re-level PVP lines on subsequent characters - just as it shouldn't keep forcing PVPers to re-level undaunted mettle on their subsequent characters.

This is an interesting idea, if executed properly. It fits the direction the game has been going with making more things account-bound. The potential to take it too far (if I start a NB alt, and my main is a NB, should I get to skip leveling my class tree again?) concerns me, but there is precedent from the enlightenment concept. It rewards seasoned players, too, giving them additional incentives to create alts and try new things. I like the idea of keeping it limited to the Undaunted and PvP lines.

Maybe it could be done through a book. You know, if you start an alt and you have another character and that tree is maxed out, you could get a book in the mail to read that your character has written where you "learn" the tree. Or, perhaps you get a quest where you have to do a couple of things to earn the book.