So I Finished Grinding Caltrops

tizodd

I posted this to my original thread, but decided to make a new thread since people often only read the first post of a thread then jump to respond without reading the rest (first thread has four pages so far so I wouldn't blame you). I'm posting it here because I have questions for pvp'ers that I'm genuinely curious about:

Well I'm done grinding out those Alliance Points and if I'm being honest, it didn't take as long as I thought it would. So those of you who pointed that out do have a point. However; it was still a horrible experience for me as a pve'er and I'm dreading doing it for my nightblade when it's time.

Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you? I was nothing but a weak link the entire time. I had no desire to "git gud" at pvp...I was only there to get an ability and gtfo. I didn't care to learn strategies or lookup pvp builds. Cyrodiil was just a means to an end. I was literally a dps DK with a healing staff and a bow. I understand people tend to have a natural aversion to change, but being against making Caltrops and/or Vigor obtainable via pve seems counterproductive for a pvp'er.

What I'm saying is: if there were no pve'ers in your ranks who are only there to unlock an ability, Cyrodiil would be filled with people with an interest in pvp...people who want to be good at pvp and take it seriously. But because we have to pvp to get the ability, we're there holding you guys back and getting massacred by players who live, drink, and sleep pvp. Yesterday someone kept shouting "DC is filled with pve'ers on the weekend...that's why we're losing". And I kept thinking to myself "well if we didn't have to do this crap to get an ability, Cyrodiil would be all yours...God knows I have no desire to be here". Since populations are locked, you could theoretically end up with 50/50 pve'ers/pvp'ers on you side...meanwhile, people who actually want to pvp are unable to get in because it's already full. I was there for hours taking up a space and I doubt I was the only one.

Wouldn't Cyrodiil be more fun/engaging for pvp'ers if everyone one there had a genuine interest in pvp?

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get more people who totally miss the point and parrot "but pvp'ers have to do pve bla bla bla" bs. But it seems like it would be better for both groups if pve viable abilities were obtainable in pve so us filthy pve'ers aren't constantly dying and making your teams weaker.

sevomd69

You're AP fodder...an easy target...

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

FloppyTouch

A lot of people play both and are very good at pve and pvp. It seems the people that only play pve or just pvp are the minority. But just like there are lazy players in pve with bad dps heals or tanks there are bad lazy pvpers like you.

Numbers is important in pvp(large scale) even if u just healed a little bit you helped. Just bc u could have done more and got more ap by trying to help ur team does not mean ur not wanted.

It’s like running a dungeon with a low cp player he might have bad dps and die a lot but he still gets drops and 10k dps added to the group is better then nothing. Just bc there is better does not mean he does not help.

TequilaFire

Counter question
Why would a PvE player not want 2 skill points just for showing up in cyro and doing the training quest by just firing and repairing a couple of siege completely in a safe zone which also awards 6000 ap.
Not to mention a couple lore books within the scroll temple in the safe zone.
Further within those safe zone you can pick up 2 skyshards right away.
So far you have been in a cyro safe zone for less than 10 min.

Now as you pointed out it wasn't that bad after all so it seems to me a PvE player for very little effort picks up a lot.

VaranisArano

Sigh. And here I responded on the other thread where I'd already responded to someone asking more or less the same question.

Before I answer the question, Caltrops and Vigor are both far more essential as skills in PVP where they are used for their intended functions not as a extra stam dot or a extra heal to take pressure off the group healers. They are first and foremost PVP skills, no matter how vital the meta claims they are for PVE.

Why I welcome PVEers into Cyrodiil even if they are there for skills and leaving:
1. That was me, once upon a time. I kept coming back to Cyrodiil. Now I PVP regularly. Far be it from me to slam the door in people's face after I've gone through it.
2. I'd make a crack about more AP from killing you, but I'm a healer. So, I get more AP from healing you! The more people the better!
3. Helping new people learn how to be effective in PVP, even if its short term and they'll never be back, is fun and rewarding. More PVPers should try it.
4. Even if all you do is slot a heal or light attack the enemy, you still contributed to the faction. Thanks!

Something I didn't mention on the other post was this: There is normally a divide between players who do PVE only and PVP only with some that do both regularly. Anything that mixes up those populations helps to ease the tension that those two communities can cause. When PVEer understand how PVP works, they are better qualified to weigh in on matters that impact the game from a PVP angle. When PVPers understand how PVE works, the other side is true. For a game that ZOS is trying its best to balance both PVP and PVE together, it is essential for the whole community to have some understanding of how the entire game functions. That means that PVPers have to PVE and PVEers have to PVP, at least for a little bit.

Kagetenchu

And considering 1 of of morphs is literally only useable in PvP(anti-calvary caltrops) I don't see where else to put it. Yes it's part of my pve rotation, but considering that I've met people who have become friends I wouldn't say it was a bad experience.

Sixty5

Honestly the biggest reason I am opposed to moving those skills away from PVP is because they act as an incentive to get people to try PVP in this game.

I mean my own first experience was trying to get Vigor on my Stamblade. I zerged and spammed snipe, and honestly I fell in love with the idea of large scale battles between armies.
I mean during that period I featured in a Fengrush video as a zergling, and you can guess what happened there, but the point is, it got me to try something that I didn't really have an interest in, and I found I enjoyed it.

I mean if you don't enjoy playing in PVP that is fine too, but at least having to try it is a good thing IMO.

TheRealPotoroo

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Expand the Undaunted skill line and put Vigor & Caltrops there. Do something nice for PvPers to compensate. Much happiness ensues.

Noggin_the_Nog

tizodd wrote: »

But it seems like it would be better for both groups if pve viable abilities were obtainable in pve so us filthy pve'ers aren't constantly dying and making your teams weaker.

Hello
I can sympathise with your dilemma. I've run through 6 alts on both NA and EU to get skills for PvE. Just using my PvE gear I do die a lot - AP fodder - but I join groups, heal/shields/repair/siege and ride a lot when I die. 1Vs 1 I'll die 95% of the time, but I do feel I'm helping my group/Alliance.
The tactics, when employed, are very interesting and I am beginning to like PvP. I've set up one alt on each server with proper PvE gear and whilst I fell I will never 'gut good' I enjoy the support role and occasional kills. Gained a lot of AP to spend with the Golden.
PvP will never replace PvE for me, but it can be fun, and makes a nice change from PvE.
Just stick with the below lvl50 campaigns, persevere, you might like it.

zaria

TequilaFire wrote: »

Counter question
Why would a PvE player not want 2 skill points just for showing up in cyro and doing the training quest by just firing and repairing a couple of siege completely in a safe zone which also awards 6000 ap.
Not to mention a couple lore books within the scroll temple in the safe zone.
Further within those safe zone you can pick up 2 skyshards right away.
So far you have been in a cyro safe zone for less than 10 min.

Now as you pointed out it wasn't that bad after all so it seems to me a PvE player for very little effort picks up a lot.

Note that you also level up if low lever and get an reward for the worthy after the training quest, on my last alt I got 20 transmute crystals

Axoinus

As a 99% PvE'r, I have no concerns having some abilities behind a PvP wall. As long as they are reasonably achievable - which from what I've seen, they are. I might be wrong, but I believe you could loose 100% of your PvP battles and still achieve all skills.

The statement OP heard, ["DC is filled with pve'ers on the weekend...that's why we're losing". ], is nothing short of silly. there are several things wrong with it:

It is his opinion. It is not fact. Why would DC have a higher population of PvEr's than other areas? Other areas don't suffer from the same issue? Some strategy and coordination in campaigns goes a long way. Sounds like another group brought more to the table that day.

PvE'rs may be fodder for hardcore PvPr but I really don't care. There is no death penalty. And if my death gives that person on the other side more satisfaction in the game and keep them coming back, then as a gimpy PvE'r, I'm making a significant contribution to the game. In other words, my PvP deaths, make the game stronger and have no impact on my erections in RL. That's the way I look at it anyway.

Cernow

I expect the thinking from the devs is that the more people are encouraged into PvP the more might find they actually like it. Yes there will always be those for whom it is never going to be something they can enjoy, or the learning curve is too steep. But others find themselves pleasantly surprised, especially if they manage to find a group with PvP'ers who are willing to explain stuff (not everyone shouts insults at novices).

It's the same with PVE and dungeons, some groups are intolerant of inexperienced players, others aren't. Undaunted skill line is a struggle for anyone who doesn't enjoy dungeons and/or group play but wants skills like Undaunted Mettle.

My advice for anyone wanting Vigor or Caltrops and doesn't enjoy PvP so much, go to non-50 Cyrodiil if you still can, or otherwise go off peak. When things are quieter, groups tend to be thankful for extra members and more tolerant of inexperience. You can also travel around more easily off peak without getting ganked, which helps with learning how to move around the map, where everything is and also picking up skyshards.

Kagetenchu

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Expand the Undaunted skill line and put Vigor & Caltrops there. Do something nice for PvPers to compensate. Much happiness ensues.

The issue is that 1 one the morphs is clearly for pulling players of there mounts and reduced speeds. Yes I've taken this morph on a pure PvP toon for that reason. Maybe if they created a new stam heal to put into the undaunted line but caltrops was designed as a PvP skill from the ground up to help defenders control areas

badmojo

Why do I want people like you to be forced into Cyrodiil in order to unlock skills? Because this game forces EVERY pvper into end game PVE content in order to get gear and skills to use in pvp. Why should we be forced into your world, but you get a pass from ours? Until they add EVERY set in the game to Cyrodiil, i will have no sympathy for PVEers who want caltrops and vigor. Consider yourself luck that the grind for those skills doesnt involve any RNG.

I dont really mind if the population of Cyrodiil gets padded with some people who arent amazing at PVP or do not have much of a desire to be there, simply because the population of Cyrodiil is pretty high and the majority of players still want to be there and are decent at it. Its also worth mentioning that even if the game gave people free pvp skills to keep them out of Cyrodiil, there would still be a good amount of people running off collecting skyahards, doing dolmen, killing delve bosses, questing, picking flowers and fishing. I do enjoy those activities being an optional part of Cyrodiil. PVP is not very consistent, sometimes things die down or the other two alliances are fighting amongst themselves so its nice to be able to fill gaps with random activities without having to leave Cyrodiil.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Expand the Undaunted skill line and put Vigor & Caltrops there. Do something nice for PvPers to compensate. Much happiness ensues.

If we are making new skills ‘to do something nice’ for a faction, why don’t they just expand the undaunted skill line and do something nice for pvers? Why move a skill just to have to replace it with it ‘with something nice’. Just give that something nice to pvers. I mean obviously it would be of equal value right? You weren’t suggesting moving the skill that the giving pvpers crap right? So if it is nice just go ahead and give it to pvers and leave caltrops and vigor where it is.

RaddlemanNumber7

Looks like the OP set out to have an absolutely miserable time in Cyrodiil, and succeeded mightily.

Now, he is trying to justify that course of action by attempting to make everyone else miserable too.

Well, not me.

I'm 99% a quester but I love doing a bit of PvP in Cyrodiil
I have 900+ cp. My highest AvA rank is Lieutenant.

This last week I started doing more AvA, for the Gold Geodes.
It takes me about 20 minutes a day on one character for a ROTW mail, but I usually stay for longer because I enjoy it so much.
I find PvP to be much more fun than any of the other options for getting transmute crystals.

Beating real stupidity is so much more satisfying than beating artificial intelligence.

As for Vigor and Caltrops being locked behind a PvP wall, it simply isn't true.
Those skills are unlocked by the accumulation of AP.
Actual Player vs Player combat is entirely optional.

IMHO the OP is building his own walls. Him on one side, carefree enjoyment on the other.

OutLaw_Nynx

Hates pvp when I first got this game. Needed Vigor and got into Cyrodiil... I’m a Major now. It’s really not that bad.

Girl_Number8

Ummm tytr give caltrops to everyone of the Op characters.

IcyDeadPeople

tizodd wrote: »

Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you? I was nothing but a weak link the entire time. I had no desire to "git gud" at pvp...I was only there to get an ability and gtfo. I didn't care to learn strategies or lookup pvp builds. Cyrodiil was just a means to an end. I was literally a dps DK with a healing staff and a bow. I understand people tend to have a natural aversion to change, but being against making Caltrops and/or Vigor obtainable via pve seems counterproductive for a pvp'er.

Because a lot of the people who populate Cyrodiil these days started out the same as you, just came in order to get caltrops or warhorn etc. And somehow got hooked on it

In my case, I had been playing ESO a few months during closed beta and only visited Cyrodiil the first time because an official message went out on the server asking everybody to go participate in some video at Chalman for a trailer they were making. Never had any particular plan to participate in PVP, but when I got to Cyrodiil it was like a huge sandbox world, and had a lot more fun than everything else I had tried up to that point.

I agree with you that it would be great if anyone who only wants to do PVE or only wants to play in Cyrodiil (or only wants to play in battlegrounds) could get all the gear and skills they need just from doing stuff they enjoy. But a lot of us try something different for some reason and end up having fun I suppose.

DarkAedin

@tizodd
Ur missing the point. Caltrops is a pvp ability to help at chokepoints.
Having pvers forced to leave their safe haven of scripted fights to cyrodiil may find enjoyment.
Im sorry if u werent one of them. But im thibking the issue was more your mindset then anything else.

Pvp population has been in decline since lighting patch 3 months into the game. Where the rp and pve community is relatively stable. Having things gated behind pvp is to assist u into actually thinking of a portion of the game u may not do.

Lastly, you cant really cant compare grinding out alliance points for rank 10 to the amount of pve farming pvp'ers are forced to do, esp after the amount of ap needed was reduced

driosketch

I've known plenty of players who didn't think they would ever like PvP, liked it after giving it a shot. It helps if you have a guild group to introduce you to it, even if it's for a skyshard run. (Which do tend to happen on the weekend, just saying.) And don't mind the chat in Cyrodiil, it is what it is. You need not take it seriously, personally, or even engage in it to get what you need done.

tizodd

sevomd69 wrote: »

You're AP fodder...an easy target...

I suspect this is a reason for a lot of pvp'ers. Basically farming unskilled players. Thanks for the honesty.

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead?...

I feel a simple fix (but I doubt it will ever happen because people would flip their wigs) is to make pvp abilities work only in pvp areas. Essentially make them unusable in pve. I noticed I was unable to use Witchmother's Whistle in Cyrodiil...perhaps the entire Alliance War skill tree could work similarly. I'm sure pve'ers could do without Caltrops and Vigor if they weren't there to begin with. I feel things go 100% time smoother when devs keep pve/pvp separate and don't attempt to balance them around one-another.

VaranisArano wrote: »

...That was me, once upon a time. I kept coming back to Cyrodiil. Now I PVP regularly. Far be it from me to slam the door in people's face after I've gone through it...

I suspect ZOS is hoping people will have the same experience you had. Unfortunately, I didn't have that experience. I've tried pvp in various games and it's just not for me. I've even played open world pvevp mmos like Archeage with the intention of enjoying it but it just never happens for me. I'm an older gamer and enjoy relaxing gameplay...hectic pvp with unkillable twitch reaction players is just not my cup-of-tea.

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Looks like the OP set out to have an absolutely miserable time in Cyrodiil, and succeeded mightily.
Now, he is trying to justify that course of action by attempting to make everyone else miserable too.

Nice ad hominem but but you're wrong. I've tried pvp multiple times in various games. I don't enjoy it. Kudos to you or anyone else who does. I won't knock your preference...but it's not for me for reasons I listed above.

badmojo wrote: »

Why do I want people like you to be forced into Cyrodiil in order to unlock skills? Because this game forces EVERY pvper into end game PVE content in order to get gear and skills to use in pvp. Why should we be forced into your world, but you get a pass from ours?...

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game. It's just to the main focus of the game or the majority of its updates/DLC. Just look at the distribution...probably 95%+ of the game is pve. ESO is not a pvp game and I wish people would stop using this flawed argument. When you bought ESO, I'm sure you knew you'd be doing a fair amount of pve content. If you honestly thought you'd only pvp then I stand corrected...but I have a very hard time believing that.

coop500

The only argument PVPers have OP that's a little valid is once upon a time the game was, when it was first released, advertised as a PVP game.

But if anyone used two cents worth of brains and see the ELDER SCROLLS part, they would realize it's a PVE game first and foremost.

However, not everyone knows TES series and just listened to the Devs and thus, fell into the 'trap'

badmojo

tizodd wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Why do I want people like you to be forced into Cyrodiil in order to unlock skills? Because this game forces EVERY pvper into end game PVE content in order to get gear and skills to use in pvp. Why should we be forced into your world, but you get a pass from ours?...

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game. It's just to the main focus of the game or the majority of its updates/DLC. Just look at the distribution...probably 95%+ of the game is pve. ESO is not a pvp game and I wish people would stop using this flawed argument. When you bought ESO, I'm sure you knew you'd be doing a fair amount of pve content. If you honestly thought you'd only pvp then I stand corrected...but I have a very hard time believing that.

My opinion is a flawed argument? LOL You asked for it, so I gave it. I'm not looking for you to 'buy' anything, it's just my opinion on the topic your asked for our feedback on.

Did I buy ESO thinking I could only play PVP? No, because I played the beta prior to purchasing it, so I knew the design I was buying into. This game requires us to level to 10 before we even get to enter Cyordiil. What I did not expect was that after playing hundreds of hours in both PVE and PVP that the rewards I would be getting for attaining top positions in PVP would be all but useless for PVPing and the best gear for PVPing would only be attainable in the hardest PVE areas.

I whole heatedly disagree with the design philosophy that ZOS has employed in ESO, forcing players to play content they don't want to in order to advance in their chosen content, is bad game design in my opinion. Changes have been made over the years to help alleviate this issue, the golden vendor gives us PVPers the chance to buy monster sets, and the amount of time it now takes to unlock alliance war skills has been greatly reduced from what it was at launch. The unfair part is the PVE world constantly gets new gear that becomes the best of the best, while PVP hasn't gotten anything new since the new alliance war skills were added years ago. So when people like you come on the forums and complain that you have to spend a few days one week doing PVP content to unlock your skills on a new character, it just reminds me of the thousand or so hours I've spent doing PVE stuff I dislike simply to get the gear I need for PVP. So I say again, why should ZOS give PVE players a free ride and still make PVP players suffer? PVE privilege? PVPers are already the minority in this world, why should PVEers get to appropriate PVP culture without walking a day in their shoes?

Another thing for you to consider. You can PVP naked and still easily get your skills. To complete vet trials and arenas I need to use specific PVE gear, upgraded to gold, and also use different skills than I do in PVP, and probably join a PVE guild. ESO is a PVE world, and you're complaining about the one time you decided to PVP for a few days? Oh no!

ArchMikem

tizodd wrote: »

Now, a question to pvp'ers who like it the way it is: why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you? I was nothing but a weak link the entire time. I had no desire to "git gud" at pvp...I was only there to get an ability and gtfo.

To the enemy players you were easy AP, and to your friendly players you were nothing more than bait, another target to distract enemy players while your PvP built Allies go to work. Everyone has their place, even us squishy PvE cannon fodder.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Let me share my 2 Septims here. I do both PvP & PvE....
My first experience at PvP was Wabbajack Campaign at launch. I was a level 20 something noob in a world of Vet10 players.
I was used as "BAIT" for 3 hours by a group of folks as I was SUCH A NOOB!.. But they ended up feeling sorry for me and invited me to their guild, and I made a great group of friends that I still play with today...
Fast Forward to Imperial City DLC....
After playing PTS of it, I knew I HAD to have Caltrops for the sewers, etc. SO, back to Cyrydiil I go!!
Note*** I kinda hated PvP as I sucked at it so bad....
Well, I joined a group one night, and met the GREATEST group of folks who do nothing BUT PvP. They took me into their guild and today I am a Colonel Grade 2.
As far as OP.....

. .probably 95%+ of the game is pve

Wrong.. You have never seen Vivec with a 100+ queue then. No, PvP is a major part of ESO. As someone who has been here since beta, I can tell you that, esp in the early days, that PvP was just as popular as PvE.

Caltrops and Vigor are PvP skills. Period. They are the ONLY PvP skills that PvE'ers need from Cryodiil. PvP'ers on the other hand have entire skill lines locked behind PvE. And trust me, watching a pure PvP'er do Pledges and Vet Delvs can be quite humorous. With every new addition of gear, weapons, etc, PvP'ers HAVE to go farm Tamriel for it every time!
PvE'ers only have to farm Cyrodiil once.

TL;DR...ESO is and has always been a MMORPG with BOTH PvE & PvP as a selling feature. (Watch early ZoS vids from 2013 and the promotion of Cyrodiil they put in it).
Caltrops & Vigor are and should stay PvP skills. As a PvE'er you may hate it, but trust me, PvP'ers hate farming PvE worse.
My 2 Drakes!
Huzzah!!!

Malacthulhu

The skill takes no time to unlock with a restro staff, you are not breaking pvp. The developers already made it way easier to get then it was. If you take less then a half hour to que in they probably needed your heals. I am saying this from the point of view of someone who is not a big pvp fan. I am sure people already mentioned how unlocking undaunted passives takes longer then getting Caltrops right?

Dojohoda

...why do you even want people like me and other pve'ers in Cyrodiil with you?....

It's that everyone is welcome to try PVP. It's the only way to get (a lot) more skill points, certain achievements, and unlocking the desired pvp skills.

When people say they don't want to PVP, but "have to" PVP for the aforementioned things, many of us will not discourage those people. We want more people to try PVP in hopes they will like it.

Regarding zone chat and the pve'er comment ... just like overland zone chat, PVP zone chat is an unpredictable mix. However, PVP does seem to have more people. (It's my opinion that players are trying PVP or returning to PVP for the geodes.)

Cernow

tizodd wrote: »

I feel a simple fix (but I doubt it will ever happen because people would flip their wigs) is to make pvp abilities work only in pvp areas. Essentially make them unusable in pve. I noticed I was unable to use Witchmother's Whistle in Cyrodiil...perhaps the entire Alliance War skill tree could work similarly. I'm sure pve'ers could do without Caltrops and Vigor if they weren't there to begin with. I feel things go 100% time smoother when devs keep pve/pvp separate and don't attempt to balance them around one-another.

What about Rapid Maneuver and its morphs, could PVE'ers live without that too?

tizodd wrote: »

I suspect ZOS is hoping people will have the same experience you had. Unfortunately, I didn't have that experience. I've tried pvp in various games and it's just not for me. I've even played open world pvevp mmos like Archeage with the intention of enjoying it but it just never happens for me. I'm an older gamer and enjoy relaxing gameplay...hectic pvp with unkillable twitch reaction players is just not my cup-of-tea.

What has age got to do with it? Lots of older players enjoy PvP. Yes, it might be hard to keep up with the twitchier aspects, but there's ways round that if you adapt your build or play a more supportive or group-oriented role, rather than trying to be the one leading the charge or chasing after the slippery gankers.

In my experience, battlefield awareness and having an idea of what your enemy is likely to try and do counteracts most of the twitchier aspects. Personally I try not to get into 1v1 situations with gankers and solo specialists as I know I don't have the twitch skills or build to win. But in a group effort, small or large, supporting and assisting the push I can usually shine. There's lots of ways to play PvP in this game, but if you try and take on the hardcore at their own game it won't usually end well. Learn what fights and situations to walk away from (for example farmers baiting the unwary at a resource) and which ones are worth participating in (doesn't have to mean running with the zerg, even solo you can find stuff to get involved in - the key is to have a build which allows you a bit of survivability).

tizodd wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game. It's just to the main focus of the game or the majority of its updates/DLC. Just look at the distribution...probably 95%+ of the game is pve. ESO is not a pvp game and I wish people would stop using this flawed argument. When you bought ESO, I'm sure you knew you'd be doing a fair amount of pve content. If you honestly thought you'd only pvp then I stand corrected...but I have a very hard time believing that.

ESO is a MMO. Most MMOs have both PVE and PvP, some with more emphasis than others of course. Personally I was drawn to ESO because of the PvP because I like 3-way seige warfare. My favourite MMO has always been Dark Age Of Camelot, and whilst Cyrodiil is a pale comparison it does still capture some of the flavour of DAOC's 3-way RvR system. I quite like the PVE content in ESO and I've completed most of it, but it's not the main draw for me. Everyone has different reasons for playing, so you can't force your concept of what the game should be onto anyone else, it's different things to different people.

Kagetenchu

tizodd wrote: »

. Essentially make them unusable in pve. I noticed I was unable to use Witchmother's Whistle in Cyrodiil...perhaps the entire Alliance War skill tree could work similarly.

Witchmothers whistle is a momento, all of which are disabled in PvP.