So I Finished Grinding Caltrops

Biro123

Samadhi wrote: »

Suffer from a severe anxiety disorder,
and the view you express here basically sums up the view that kept me from running dungeons,
hated the whole prospect of grinding out undaunted
and dreaded the idea of holding back/slowing down experienced teams while being the overleveled noob learning for the first time
took me a lot of therapy to get to a place where running them at all became an option,
so you may be ahead of me with regard to being able to harness motivation

as soon as a character maxes the Undaunted line, immediately stop running pledges on that character

not actually saying this as a "oh pvpers suffer too"
since my situation is not likely 'typical'
just putting it out there
since you mentioned a natural aversion to change
but may not be reflective

That's almost exactly my feelings on group PVE (but without the disorder).

Not to mention the expectation that many groups seem to have that it all has to be 'raced through' - rushing off, skipping half the mobs, ignoring the quests, getting to the first boss while I'm still sitting at the start taking off my impen gear and trying to remember what skills I use for PVE.... I mean I've solo'd plenty of vet dungeons with my PVP gear.. but don't want my dps to look low in a grp, y'know? Then when something goes wrong its always somebody's fault, and I'm like 'what mechanics?' nah, not my idea of fun - my idea of hasstle n stress..

Samadhi

Biro123 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Suffer from a severe anxiety disorder,
and the view you express here basically sums up the view that kept me from running dungeons,
hated the whole prospect of grinding out undaunted
and dreaded the idea of holding back/slowing down experienced teams while being the overleveled noob learning for the first time
took me a lot of therapy to get to a place where running them at all became an option,
so you may be ahead of me with regard to being able to harness motivation

as soon as a character maxes the Undaunted line, immediately stop running pledges on that character

not actually saying this as a "oh pvpers suffer too"
since my situation is not likely 'typical'
just putting it out there
since you mentioned a natural aversion to change
but may not be reflective

That's almost exactly my feelings on group PVE (but without the disorder).

Not to mention the expectation that many groups seem to have that it all has to be 'raced through' - rushing off, skipping half the mobs, ignoring the quests, getting to the first boss while I'm still sitting at the start taking off my impen gear and trying to remember what skills I use for PVE.... I mean I've solo'd plenty of vet dungeons with my PVP gear.. but don't want my dps to look low in a grp, y'know? Then when something goes wrong its always somebody's fault, and I'm like 'what mechanics?' nah, not my idea of fun - my idea of hasstle n stress..

Have been in treatment for OCD, PTSD, Depression and general and social anxiety disorders for a number of years now
going all the way back to the implementation of Craglorn and the very first trials, did not do group PvE or PvP
a lot of therapy and some focus on planning a sort of progression has helped

started with joining into group pvp despite it feeling stressful
worked my way up to Emperor before ever taking a pledge
started pledges by soloing dungeons that had been solo'd or duo'd with my ex previously
then running normals and getting mechanics down, before finally getting up to vet
have run normal trials just to try and take in the story
but still not even close to running vet trials with the way people talk about dps tests and threshholds and everything x-x

Undaunted is a slow grind due to panic attacks in the middle of dungeons scaring me off for several days or a week at a time
and also by agreeing with my therapist to not solo out the daily pledges no matter how stressful groups feel
but have had the fortune of getting to attend CBT classes and be in to the psychiatrist on a regular basis
learned to appreciate that painfully slow progress is still better than no progress

Xvorg

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Expand the Undaunted skill line and put Vigor & Caltrops there. Do something nice for PvPers to compensate. Much happiness ensues.

That's stupid. So your solution is force PvPers into PvE to get the skill? Isn't Undaunted Mettle not enough?

TheRealPotoroo

Xvorg wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Expand the Undaunted skill line and put Vigor & Caltrops there. Do something nice for PvPers to compensate. Much happiness ensues.

That's stupid. So your solution is force PvPers into PvE to get the skill? Isn't Undaunted Mettle not enough?

So instead of moving the line duplicate it (I said that before). Duplicate everything, if you want. I truly don't care as long as I never have to PvP ever again.

Storymaster

Given all the back and forth about PVP and PVE, and you're a this, and you're a that, I consulted the wisdom of the great Inspirobot and this is what it had to tell us in the spirit of Unity:

sabretalon

I’ll be honest. Been into pvp twice and had zero clue about what I was doing!

Did the so called tutorials that prepares you for what exactly? How to fire a siege weapon, how to use a shrine?

Ran around then kept getting one shot killed no matter which way I went.

My second visit I somehow picked up a quest to go somewhere. Was following that and ran into some random monsters mid map. Killed some but then ran further just picked a direction then eventually saw some people fighting so joined in. I managed to get a few hits then they turned around and hit me and I died. Could I find out what to do next or where to go? Nope.

I run around picking a compass direction and eventually find another fight, die and repeat lots. Not one person seems to want to help. As much as I may want to go in there I don’t want to just keep walking round a corner to be hit once by a maxed out pvper

I may come back once I have my main up past 50 with some cp points? At the moment though, will ignore until then

Kalitas

They do this on purpose and they've already stated that. They want people to experience everything the game has to offer. Some people have hopped into Cyrodiil and really found out they enjoyed it. If they were to remove the skill lines from PVP they should also make the best weapons in the game available without having to PVE for them.

Izaki

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Honest question. Where would you like to put caltrops instead? I get the idea taking it away from pvp. But where would you put it? Unless you made up a new skills line that could be unlocked by PVP or PVE I don’t see a solution that works.

You also have to looks at the rest of the arguement. If you put this skill into one of the PVE lines it forces pvp players into more PVE. And if you put it on a weapon it limits choices. Both of those options are worse in my mind then having some pvers running around pvp for, as you point out, a fairly short amount of time.

Fighter's Guild. And swap out Protective Rune to Assault.

Xvorg

Aeorath wrote: »

sevomd69 wrote: »

You're AP fodder...an easy target...

So this is where a PVP player gets his kicks, killing players that do not care about PVP at all? You're so weak then, my friend

Nopes... In PvP you don't have tim to check if the guy you killed is a PvEr or current emperor.

Xvorg

Nogawd wrote: »

tizodd wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game.

Just because Elder Scrolls has a history of pve, does not mean that this game follows that. This game was centered around the war with the split factions with plenty of other things to do if you get bored.

TES is PvE because they never had the technology to make it PvP back in the 90s and 2000s.

Unfadingsilence

At least it was not as hard to get like they where before, like when IC came out. Now they just hand vigor and caltrops out like they sat a bucket of candy out on Halloween night and they said take one please.....

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

tizodd wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game.

Just because Elder Scrolls has a history of pve, does not mean that this game follows that. This game was centered around the war with the split factions with plenty of other things to do if you get bored.

TES is PvE because they never had the technology to make it PvP back in the 90s and 2000s.

No. The previous 10 TES games are single player, as in, only one player. Apples and Oranges...
MMO's have been around since the 1980's and have had PvP elements since mid 1990's, yes they had the tech.

ESO was in beginning stages in 2009-2010, before the launch of Skyrim. It was designed released as a PvE / PvP game.

Xvorg

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

tizodd wrote: »

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this argument. ESO is a pve mmo with added pvp, much like Battlefield is a pvp game with some pve. I have a hard time believing anyone honestly feels ESO is primarily a pvp game.

Just because Elder Scrolls has a history of pve, does not mean that this game follows that. This game was centered around the war with the split factions with plenty of other things to do if you get bored.

TES is PvE because they never had the technology to make it PvP back in the 90s and 2000s.

No. The previous 10 TES games are single player, as in, only one player. Apples and Oranges...
MMO's have been around since the 1980's and have had PvP elements since mid 1990's, yes they had the tech.

ESO was in beginning stages in 2009-2010, before the launch of Skyrim. It was designed released as a PvE / PvP game.

To make TES as a MMO? Doubt it. They wantred a Gladiator's Arena kind of game. Later the side quests became bigger than the main Arena so it turned into a PVE RPG

Drakkdjinn

It's a PvP skill that's become - not by original design but via recent buffs - useful in PvE, so you gotta do PvP things to get it, this is not complicated.

LonePirate

If you are a PVE player going to Cyrodiil to grind AP for Vigor, Caltrops and Magicka Detonation, here are a few tips.

1. Go to the non-vet campaign (Kyne) as soon as you reach level 10 or as soon as you can. If you are already level 50, go to a campaign where your faction participates for at least a few hours a day.
2. Pick up the quest that will be right in front of you when you arrive. Hang on to it for now.
3. Travel to a delve. Each faction has a delve between the two home keeps just outside the two gate areas.
4. Kill any boss in any Cyrodiil delve. This will grant you a 20% increase to all AP earned for one hour. Repeat once that hour is up.
5. Return to the gate and complete the starter quest picked up above. Do not skip the training! Also complete the two other quests in the starter chain. Do not skip the training. You will unlock Rapid Maneuvers and all capture and bounty quests once you finish the third starter quest. Grab all of those quests. Grouping with others is a faster way to complete the player bounty quests which reward 2400 AP each with the delve buff.
6. Go to the keep controlled by your faction that is closest to a keep not controlled by your faction. Look to see if your faction is sieging that enemy keep or preparing to defend the keep where you are. Purchase a Flaming Oil, a regular ballista and a fire ballista. Use the regular ballista to siege walls and doors. Use the fire ballista to defend or attack enemy players. Use the oil to defend a keep by placing it on ledges above walls and doors.
7. If your faction successfully captures an enemy keep, that is 7200 AP at a minimum if you have the delve buff. Outposts are worth 3600 and resources are worth 1800 with the buff.
8. If you defend a keep, outpost or resource, be sure to stay for the defense AP bonus that occurs a few minutes after the fighting has stopped. These bonuses can vary widely from a few hundred to several thousand.
9. Repair walls and doors.
10. Heal your allies. The second resto staff skill is great for this.
11. Use skills that stun, knock down, slow down or stop the movement of your enemies. Sorcs should always slot and use Negate which is very helpful when enemies cluster on a flag.
12. Ignore high health tanks that run around rocks and trees. Run away if you sense a bad situation or you are vastly outnumbered.

Learn as much as you can and try to have fun.

Samadhi

LonePirate wrote: »

...
12. Ignore high health tanks that run around rocks and trees. Run away if you sense a bad situation or you are vastly outnumbered.

Learn as much as you can and try to have fun.

Knowing when to disengage is as important as knowing when to engage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4nJ1YEAp4

Beardimus

I could name about 20 players, who came to Cyro for AP like you and got hooked.

I never intended PvP to be my end game, but the boredom of trials game play and clicky community combined with buzz of learning a new massive part of the game that's dynamic and enjoyable has led to my PvP focus

Maybe if you had embraced it abit to enjoy your time there you would see. Grinding anything leads to disatisfaction. You could have embraced it and see where it led. But each to their own

It's healthy tho that the game encourages you into other areas for things. I've got into all aspects way more than I originally planned because of this.

sevomd69

duendology wrote: »

Being completely unexperienced in the PVP area I decided to join and see what it is like. I went to Cyrodiil knowing perfectly well my gear was not even best for PVE area. Hell, I am 280-somthing champion and I am still inexperienced but I've been observing and learning. I am hesitant to join group because my impression is most of PVPers are a little bit too serious about this pvp as if their real freaking lives depended whether they win a campaign or not... o_0

Anyway, having said that, "cyrodiling" as a solo player and having died a couple of times, I did enjoy pvp. I helped my alliance group as much as I could. Also, it took me max 4 hours (in two seatings) to unlock this pvp skill line (maybe I was lucky and there was just huge "traffic" then?).and haven't used it because I believed it does not work in PVE area...and it does? haha ...Now that's interesting.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I don’t hate PVP — sometimes I actually have fun when I’m doing it — but I’m 98 percent a PVE’r and cannon fodder in PVP. Like many others, I only go for sky shards and enough AP to get the skills I might need someday. I will die fast if attacked one-on-one, and instantly if ganked by more than one opponent. (Fortunately dying doesn’t bother me). I do try to help my alliance, though. I wear PVP gear, take pots, do siege and repair and throw myself into both the attack and the defense. I heal my [snip] off when on a healer. But I don’t really feel any desire to “git gud” or learn to be a PvP beast. Maybe if and when I get bored with PvE?

I do have caltrops on a couple of characters now (nice skill!) but I’m not sure I’ll grind it on anyone else.

This is the secret behind whether one enjoys PVP or not (especially if you suck at PVP)... There are too many players who feel a death in a video game...one that lets you rez with virtually no repercussions...is the equivalent of someone defecating in their Fruit Loops...

[Edited for quote]

wazzz56

A) it is not that bad of a grind..anymore anyway....complaints by non pvpers wanting those skills easier led to substantial nerfs to the amount of AP needed for them.
B.) Those skills are essential in PvP, and are designed to be PvPcentric skills, they are nice additions to Pve rotations , but are certainly PvP minded skills, there is no need to move them.
C) though you do not want to hear it, it is far tougher for Pvpers to get what is needed in the pve realm as opposed to what you are qq'ing about. Undaunted takes weeks to level, gear takes time to grind..and some of it being stuck behind a solo pve wall....compare the time it takes to get Assault skills versus the time it takes to learn mechanics in VMA or dsa and complete them, and have rngeezus bless you wth something other than a charged mace. Imagine if you hit assault 5 and it was a random skill you unlocked, that would be fun for you right? Yes, they introduced the golden, but that is hit or miss (mostly miss) when it comes to viable gear.....they sets that we get from rftw or end of campaign rewards, op af..I love the gold Rings of the Heartland that I have..so useful for my time spent....
D) I hated pvp when I started, found myself exploring PvP on my 1st toon, got into a group...3 years later I still play on the daily with thoses guys , I have Preatorians, Captains, and almost a 2 Star, I run a pretty damn good little pvp guild, enjoy teaching the game when I can, oh and I also find time to enjoy Pve..

If any of you are on PS4 NA and need help getting these skills but are apprehensive about pvp, let me know, I will see if I can help, or at least set you up with someone who can

lardvader

Beardimus wrote: »

I could name about 20 players, who came to Cyro for AP like you and got hooked.

I never intended PvP to be my end game, but the boredom of trials game play and clicky community combined with buzz of learning a new massive part of the game that's dynamic and enjoyable has led to my PvP focus

Maybe if you had embraced it abit to enjoy your time there you would see. Grinding anything leads to disatisfaction. You could have embraced it and see where it led. But each to their own

It's healthy tho that the game encourages you into other areas for things. I've got into all aspects way more than I originally planned because of this.

Well said @Beardimus - 100% agree

Niobium

Storymaster wrote: »

It's pretty simple. Allow the accomplishing of PVE content in Cyrodiil to unlock PVP skills as well perhaps even at a very, very slow return. Participate in PVP, you get the standard return. Complete PVE content you get a very slow return.

Problem sarved.

You do realize this is already a thing, right? Like.. you can go do a bunch of PvE quests in towns and get AP.. do any of you even explore?

Go to Cyrodiil and quest your little PvE hearts out. The return is shite, but then so is your risk.

You can PvE your way to Caltrops and Vigor. Bloody hell.

Barbaran

and we fill your dungeons with pvp sets for single target dps to gather the sets we want to use

Tan9oSuccka

It’s really not bad. I wouldn’t exactly call it great though either.

PvP can be salty and generally toxic.

There are rare flashes of brilliance. Even factions going head to head in large scale battles. People playing straight up, no glitches, cheese or BS.

Onefrkncrzypope

There is a major problem with changing the skill lines from PvP. There is just too many PvE relevant skills in the two skill lines. Warhorn, barrier, purge, vigor, caltrops, and even the magica recovery passives for healers and tanks. Yes I used to PvP exclusively so I can reenter the fray without any problems but I decided to just try what a PvE player might do to get the skills without major PvP. Fixing walls, zerging, and questing took only a few hours for caltrops. I was on a tank so I had to get warhorn and barrier it took 2 days without even making a pvp build. You don't have to kill to help the cause.

AsheronRealaidain

tizodd wrote: »

However; it was still a horrible experience for me as a pve'er and I'm dreading doing it for my nightblade when it's time.

Grinding lore books for Mage Guild 10 is a horrible experience for me as a PvPer. Only fair people will need to head into Cyrodiil to get the skills they want as well.

AcadianPaladin

I don't mind those skills being in PvP zone though PvP is not my goblet of Tamikas. The reason being, as already better stated than I can, it encourages trying diff things. The change I would like to see has also been mentioned above: Make PvP skill ups (access to caltrops etc) account wide. It only really takes one character to work up through Cyrodiil getting those skills for a player to comfortably say (from experience) whether they enjoyed the process or not.

Wreuntzylla

TequilaFire wrote: »

Counter question
Why would a PvE player not want 2 skill points just for showing up in cyro and doing the training quest by just firing and repairing a couple of siege completely in a safe zone which also awards 6000 ap.
Not to mention a couple lore books within the scroll temple in the safe zone.
Further within those safe zone you can pick up 2 skyshards right away.
So far you have been in a cyro safe zone for less than 10 min.

Now as you pointed out it wasn't that bad after all so it seems to me a PvE player for very little effort picks up a lot.

You missed the most important part of this. If you are leveling in this game and don't immediately go do this and spend your first point in rapids, the pain you must feel slowly moving around the world....

DarkAedin

ookami007 wrote: »

I hate PvE. I pushed 14 toons through it to get various things and I still hate it. Half the time, things are so boring that i fall asleep... the other half you're riding between where you are and where you want to be (questing)only to get there and fall asleep cuz quest rp or pve rotations are boring af.

@ookami007 FixT for u

Thunderknuckles

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sigh. And here I responded on the other thread where I'd already responded to someone asking more or less the same question.

Before I answer the question, Caltrops and Vigor are both far more essential as skills in PVP where they are used for their intended functions not as a extra stam dot or a extra heal to take pressure off the group healers. They are first and foremost PVP skills, no matter how vital the meta claims they are for PVE.

Why I welcome PVEers into Cyrodiil even if they are there for skills and leaving:
1. That was me, once upon a time. I kept coming back to Cyrodiil. Now I PVP regularly. Far be it from me to slam the door in people's face after I've gone through it.
2. I'd make a crack about more AP from killing you, but I'm a healer. So, I get more AP from healing you! The more people the better!
3. Helping new people learn how to be effective in PVP, even if its short term and they'll never be back, is fun and rewarding. More PVPers should try it.
4. Even if all you do is slot a heal or light attack the enemy, you still contributed to the faction. Thanks!

Something I didn't mention on the other post was this: There is normally a divide between players who do PVE only and PVP only with some that do both regularly. Anything that mixes up those populations helps to ease the tension that those two communities can cause. When PVEer understand how PVP works, they are better qualified to weigh in on matters that impact the game from a PVP angle. When PVPers understand how PVE works, the other side is true. For a game that ZOS is trying its best to balance both PVP and PVE together, it is essential for the whole community to have some understanding of how the entire game functions. That means that PVPers have to PVE and PVEers have to PVP, at least for a little bit.

You're inspiring me to give it more of a try, Varanis. ha ha I love PvP in other games and have, if I may humbly submit to you, been a living terror to whole teams in other MMO's. ESO is much like GW2 with this faction vs faction stuff and I simply don't enjoy being 1 shotted all the time. You, however, have made me reconsider giving it a try.

VaranisArano

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

You're inspiring me to give it more of a try, Varanis. ha ha I love PvP in other games and have, if I may humbly submit to you, been a living terror to whole teams in other MMO's. ESO is much like GW2 with this faction vs faction stuff and I simply don't enjoy being 1 shotted all the time. You, however, have made me reconsider giving it a try.

Awesome! Come be a living terror! (Impenetrable gear and safety in numbers does help with the being one-shot thing )
If you aren't already familiar with Cyrodiil PVP, I love Joy_Division's guide to the midyear mayhem event as an introduction to all the basic things I wish I'd known when I started to PVP and that I would tell new players now: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360956/joy-s-advice-for-midyear-mayhem-event/p1