The Reason Why The PTS is Pretty Much Pointless I Can Tell You Why.

TazESO · October 2017

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

This. When people write essays about something, be it "x skill is not working"/"balance problems", we dont even see any dev response, what is people expected to say?

Maybe the "Feedback thread for (class/dungeon/general content)" made on each PTS could have their OP updated with major "pain points" and qustions of players, each one awnswered by the devs. I understand you cant post a response on every thread about some topic, then put your anwsers there on fixed topics where people can search for them.

Great idea!!!

paulsimonps · October 2017

I test and play A LOT on the PTS. My only incentive is to make sure broken stuff don't get to the live server, as well as testing new balance changes that will affect me. I don't want a reward, I don't want others to get a reward. Its up to us if we want broken stuff in the game or not. I found a lot of big bugs in Asylum this PTS that I would have hated to see on Live, as well gave a lot of Feedback on me and my teams experience for balance changes.

If you need a carrot dangling over you to play on the PTS then all I need to remind you of is that the improvement of the game should be enough of a carrot. If its not then you are not the kind of person I would like to see on the PTS anyway, not that that is up to me. But its very selfish, like the people that want extra crowns or sub days when the server has patch maintenance.

For me the PTS is amazing to help the game and to help myself and learn more about the game. And thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for making the templates better and better each time. Please keep them that way

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2017

Ulfgarde wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

But bugs, some major, haven't been fixed for months, let alone YEARS. A ton of things get by PTS and live that people report, yet nothing happens.

I believe that your devs may be passionate about feedback, but many times a ton of exploits and bugs get passed and continue for months until they're fixed. There's also a ton of player feedback that gets disregarded or gets noticed, but later gets removed.

There needs to be better priority for your fixes. I get your team isn't perfect, but they will be criticized for continued problems. I appreciate the effort immensely, however.

Those devs dont always get the choice in what they fix. Its dictated to them by higher ups.

DDuke · October 2017

TheMaster wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I test and play A LOT on the PTS. My only incentive is to make sure broken stuff don't get to the live server, as well as testing new balance changes that will affect me. I don't want a reward, I don't want others to get a reward. Its up to us if we want broken stuff in the game or not. I found a lot of big bugs in Asylum this PTS that I would have hated to see on Live, as well gave a lot of Feedback on me and my teams experience for balance changes.

If you need a carrot dangling over you to play on the PTS then all I need to remind you of is that the improvement of the game should be enough of a carrot. If its not then you are not the kind of person I would like to see on the PTS anyway, not that that is up to me. But its very selfish, like the people that want extra crowns or sub days when the server has patch maintenance.

For me the PTS is amazing to help the game and to help myself and learn more about the game. And thank you ZOS_GinaBruno for making the templates better and better each time. Please keep them that way

[snip]

I don't know, I wouldn't really call playing on PTS "working". It's the best place to test builds etc (e.g. no need to waste time/gold on Live server for gear that turns out to be bad).

I'd love to see more people in there to actually test things with, atleast when there's a brand new patch in there.
Most of the time it's a ghost town, which makes testing PvP stuff for example quite difficult

[edited to remove quote]

Avnr · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:
The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Well said , after reading this i decide to support the game with renew my eso +
I must say that i don't like it (as end game my inters is pvp only)but i want to help save it
I believe that you care , so i care to

First i'm sorry for my bad english , i cannot express the hard work the team made for the game and last update
No other game is like this , the team is the best of the best for sure

ThePrinceOfBargains · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I test and play A LOT on the PTS. My only incentive is to make sure broken stuff don't get to the live server, as well as testing new balance changes that will affect me. I don't want a reward, I don't want others to get a reward. Its up to us if we want broken stuff in the game or not. I found a lot of big bugs in Asylum this PTS that I would have hated to see on Live, as well gave a lot of Feedback on me and my teams experience for balance changes.

If you need a carrot dangling over you to play on the PTS then all I need to remind you of is that the improvement of the game should be enough of a carrot. If its not then you are not the kind of person I would like to see on the PTS anyway, not that that is up to me. But its very selfish, like the people that want extra crowns or sub days when the server has patch maintenance.

For me the PTS is amazing to help the game and to help myself and learn more about the game. And thank you ZOS_GinaBruno for making the templates better and better each time. Please keep them that way

[snip]

I don't know, I wouldn't really call playing on PTS "working". It's the best place to test builds etc (e.g. no need to waste time/gold on Live server for gear that turns out to be bad).

I'd love to see more people in there to actually test things with, atleast when there's a brand new patch in there.
Most of the time it's a ghost town, which makes testing PvP stuff for example quite difficult

I’m sure that if you asked any of these developers to bug test (which is what they want; opinionated feedback is a minor concern), they’d consider it work and expect to be paid. Course, their testing would probably be much more monotonous and targeted, but still. Since we’re not employed, I don’t expect money. But something would be nice. I’d probably actually bother with it. Perhaps something relatively inconsequential to console players, like a week’s worth of mount training (not that anyone ever said life was supposed to be fair...)
[edited to remove quote]

Balamoor · October 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.
[*] The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Any half-decent bugtracker/ticketing system lists the reporting party. It's trivial to identify who first brought up a unique issue if your internal bug tracker has even the most base of features.

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Virtually none of the overwhelming feedback given on the PTS in the last year that I've been here has went in, except for REMOVING a much-needed nerf to an over-performing class and changing said nerf into an outright buff.. Multiple reported bugs have made it to live as well.

Frankly, I've seen feedback not only ignored but have actions taken directly in the opposite manner that your player-base wanted/recommended on more than one occasion.

Please don't treat your player-base like idiots.

Dude.....

Just because the team doesn't want to take the advice of every armchair developer doesn't mean they are treating the player base like idiots. If the devs listen to half of these geniuses that want their pet vision enacted, there would be a mass exodus the gaming community hasn't seen since SWG NGE. No one is going to take PTS feedback seriously from forum users that spend 8 to 16 hours a day thinking up new ways to say ZoS sucks

Also

This dev team and CM's have been excruciatingly patient with the single most toxic forum community this side of League of Legends, I'm glad Gina and the rest of the CM's are stopping the incessant company/dev/game bashing. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but what we have had on this forum is anything but constructive, and it kills any positive community feelings people who actually like the game has. The same people have been hating on the game since it launched, and it isn't because they want to see a better game, they hate on it because the forum trollo to them is much more fun than any game they can play. Devs from other companies have found that out and have put a end to it, and I'm hoping that ZoS finally have as well.

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism. I could point to many examples. Most of them tank nerfs, that while the majority of one side of the playerbase reviled, still went through. And yet the line is the same. "We want your feedback".

What use is screaming at void? There is no use.

I -like- this game. I -like- most of the people on the community team. Gina, is a nice person. Most of them are nice people. But does that mean they do a good job? That's something different entirely. And I wont stop saying I hate how they handle PTS feedback.

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

@Doctordarkspawn
I'm sorry, you get highly emotional over silly nonsense, once again dude...it's a video game. No one is treating you like an idiot, because if they did I doubt you would spend six to twelve hours a day posting on their forum; you are in a perpetual state of outrage, perhaps you should look into that?

Every time someone talks about Feedback you loudly and rudely proclaim that ZOS doesn't want it, and it's hyperbole. If you don't think they are doing a good job fine that is your opinion, but opinion isn't necessarily fact, and it's more than a little pathetic that you spend that Six to Twelve hours a day figuring out new ways to say that.

You can say I'm bias, a white knight, a whale, and all the other the other derogatory things I have been called, sticks and stones bro....but it doesn't take away from the fact that you have made a personal crusade telling a Video game company they fail in every conceivable way you can come up with....if you want to know why they probably aren't listening to you, it's because it's sounds like a droning temper tantrum at this point.

SwimsWithMemes · October 2017

it would be nice if the PTS was used for more combat balancing @ZOS_GinaBruno , rather than just major base game updates. Leave the PTS up all the time and constantly iterate combat changes. Give us a "major monthly" combat change that gets pushed to live, and if anything is still unrefined just leave it for the next cycle. This also means that base game combat is changing as well, giving people fresh new things to try. Maybe one week Skoria gets a little red version of Meteor targeting --> if its unloved, just pull it. It doesn't even have to be stuff you want to put on Live in the immediate future, maybe its just a reworked Ardent Flame tree one week, but its a sneaky preview for the next chapter.

I really wish you guys would tell us why we don't see more changes on the PTS, more frequently. Is it resources? I don't bother downloading the PTS normally because I play from OCE/Aus and its just even laggier than normal. Maybe I would try it always if it offered a unique experience

This lets people who want a unique always changing experience play on the PTS and actually test stuff, and it also helps @ZOS_Wrobel out because he can see what people respond positively to and against and have constant time to iterate changes and use your stats to work out what changes are good and what are not. Also, keep up the developer comments on abilities! While we players don't always agree with them ,they are excellent at letting us see where you are going.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2017

Erraln wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism. I could point to many examples. Most of them tank nerfs, that while the majority of one side of the playerbase reviled, still went through. And yet the line is the same. "We want your feedback".

What use is screaming at void? There is no use.

I -like- this game. I -like- most of the people on the community team. Gina, is a nice person. Most of them are nice people. But does that mean they do a good job? That's something different entirely. And I wont stop saying I hate how they handle PTS feedback.

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

Have you considered the possibility that with character utility reduction changes, the feedback Zeni wanted to see was five threads of upset hardcore players begging for it not to happen, as confirmation that we haven't found a way out of the intended design? That it might not be the void you're screaming at, but a smile?

It has.

But it makes no logical sense for a buisness to *** off it's customers. Yet, what other explination are we left with?

Doctordarkspawn · October 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.
[*] The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Any half-decent bugtracker/ticketing system lists the reporting party. It's trivial to identify who first brought up a unique issue if your internal bug tracker has even the most base of features.

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Virtually none of the overwhelming feedback given on the PTS in the last year that I've been here has went in, except for REMOVING a much-needed nerf to an over-performing class and changing said nerf into an outright buff.. Multiple reported bugs have made it to live as well.

Frankly, I've seen feedback not only ignored but have actions taken directly in the opposite manner that your player-base wanted/recommended on more than one occasion.

Please don't treat your player-base like idiots.

Dude.....

Just because the team doesn't want to take the advice of every armchair developer doesn't mean they are treating the player base like idiots. If the devs listen to half of these geniuses that want their pet vision enacted, there would be a mass exodus the gaming community hasn't seen since SWG NGE. No one is going to take PTS feedback seriously from forum users that spend 8 to 16 hours a day thinking up new ways to say ZoS sucks

Also

This dev team and CM's have been excruciatingly patient with the single most toxic forum community this side of League of Legends, I'm glad Gina and the rest of the CM's are stopping the incessant company/dev/game bashing. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but what we have had on this forum is anything but constructive, and it kills any positive community feelings people who actually like the game has. The same people have been hating on the game since it launched, and it isn't because they want to see a better game, they hate on it because the forum trollo to them is much more fun than any game they can play. Devs from other companies have found that out and have put a end to it, and I'm hoping that ZoS finally have as well.

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism. I could point to many examples. Most of them tank nerfs, that while the majority of one side of the playerbase reviled, still went through. And yet the line is the same. "We want your feedback".

What use is screaming at void? There is no use.

I -like- this game. I -like- most of the people on the community team. Gina, is a nice person. Most of them are nice people. But does that mean they do a good job? That's something different entirely. And I wont stop saying I hate how they handle PTS feedback.

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

@Doctordarkspawn
I'm sorry, you get highly emotional over silly nonsense, once again dude...it's a video game. No one is treating you like an idiot, because if they did I doubt you would spend six to twelve hours a day posting on their forum; you are in a perpetual state of outrage, perhaps you should look into that?

Every time someone talks about Feedback you loudly and rudely proclaim that ZOS doesn't want it, and it's hyperbole. If you don't think they are doing a good job fine that is your opinion, but opinion isn't necessarily fact, and it's more than a little pathetic that you spend that Six to Twelve hours a day figuring out new ways to say that.

You can say I'm bias, a white knight, a whale, and all the other the other derogatory things I have been called, sticks and stones bro....but it doesn't take away from the fact that you have made a personal crusade telling a Video game company they fail in every conceivable way you can come up with....if you want to know why they probably aren't listening to you, it's probably because it's sounds like droning at this point.

You are biased.

I wouldn't be here if ZOS would do two things:

1. If and when the deadline hits and they cant impliment anymore, say it. It's fine. Deadlines happen. It's disappointing, but it happens.

2. If they want to see the change hit live and figure things out from there, say it. It'd work if they'd be willing to reverse certain changes when they hit live and have a negative impact, but that would require them to uphold that.

That's it. That's all. Yes, I proclaim that ZOS does not want your feedback, because they're actions say, they do not. It is barely acknowledged, and when it is, it is usually a angry response from the two mouthpieces. Wrobel, and Rich. Who, I'm sorry have this much crap flying at them, but. They've made themselves the only mouthpieces we can expect. And are thus, the only targets to shoot at.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not wish to sit around being a gloomy guts pointing out all the failures. I want to play a game I enjoy. But the game has gone so far from what I enjoy, or even recognize I'm unable to.

I have allways, and will allways be, willing to work with the developers to accomidate not just my, but all styles of play. I would love to sit down on the PTS and work side by side with them, treating them as equals, and even friends. But it's kind of hard to do, when they dont pick up the damn phone.

And you can hate me for the tag I wear on my forum signature all you like. I will keep that offer open for as long as the game continues to run. When the devs decide they'd like to work together, I'll be here.

In the meantime, by all means, continue to campaign for them to protect you from harassment when you buy crown crate merch. I'm genuinely interested, to see if you get any more of a response then we do.

Croblasta · October 2017

I thought the developer comments were a great addition to the patch notes. At first, they gave a some insight into the decisions but recently they have become more like canned responses.

Like others have said, I feel the lack of transparency and communication from the teams who control the direction of the game are the reason for a lot of these issues. There is lots of talk about the vision of the game, but has that vision been expressed to the community as that vision may continually evolve?

I think the latest example of this is the change to Crystal Frags and how it played out. PvP has a quick pace and is about high burst damage. The community stated most people will not waste a skill to stand in the back while throwing a cast time frag into a group of people. I’m not saying the change needs to be reverted and maybe this change will make sense down the road, but the lack of dialogue is what I feel frustrates people.

There was a great post by @ZOS_RichLambert a while back regarding the “everyone wears heavy in PvP” post. He replied with lots of amazing and informative statistics, which garnered more dialog and gave insight into the metrics that are used. I feel that more information like this would be great start to provide insight into decisons that are made.

Loc2262 · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

I stopped participating in the PTS a while back for reasons already mentioned here, but apparently the routine is still as before. Tons of PTS participants report intended changes as being unfortunate, request them being looked at, reverted or modified, and have their participation apparently ignored.

Note the "apparently". And that is the issue here. Why can't the devs at least leave a notice why certain complaints about an intended change are ultimately not being taken into account? Why can't they explicitly explain the reason for unpopular changes making it to live, against massive protest? If they have to stay late to read stuff, why can't they comment in the proper threads and say why they anyway have to implement a change that's greatly disliked?

I can totally see why people who invest their free time (read, they're not getting paid at all for trying to improve your game, working overtime or not) feel ignored and bad when such changes make it to live.

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

From my roughly 14 months on this forum, I've come to know you as a very kind and friendly person. In my view, an implicit (or maybe even explicit) threat like this does not really befit you.

FlamingBeard · October 2017

To any devs reading this thread:

Separate PvP and PvE balance. Just do it.

This MMORPG isn't a special snowflake, it doesn't function in a vacuum from the way most others have managed to have thriving playerbases.

The combat balance team's claims that they try to balance both sides in harmony is already thwarted by the fact that Critical Strikes exist.

Players can critically strike, while monsters cannot, meaning that the Resistant champion point star (as well as multiple unlockable stars in the red constellations) are entirely null and void in PvE situations.

Make ALL PvP NON-CP and balance Champion Points around PvE.

This would make PvP a lot more straightforward and front-loaded (a goal the devs have claimed to aim for) and more skill-based.

You can't say PvE and PvP are balanced together when you have to spend 3,000 gold on changing your Champion Points every time you want to do PvP or PvE on one character.

Before you say "well that's ridiculous, then how are we supposed to force PvPers to grind by artificially increasing the level threshold every 3 months???" the simple answer is you don't.

Stop trying to force more PvE on PvPers than you already do, and vice-versa (some of the most PvP-popularized sets are locked behind some fairly difficult PvE content and some of the best universal skills like Vigor, Purge and Caltrops are PvP-locked).

The most successful games with PvE/PvP content allow minimal grind before PvP viability is achieved, while PvE is understandably more grind-based.

We'd still have to grind for sets, research traits, collect transmute crystals, and get each new character along with class skills, undaunted and other guild skills, etc to level 50 for PvP. Seems fair to me.

Ulfgarde · October 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

But bugs, some major, haven't been fixed for months, let alone YEARS. A ton of things get by PTS and live that people report, yet nothing happens.

I believe that your devs may be passionate about feedback, but many times a ton of exploits and bugs get passed and continue for months until they're fixed. There's also a ton of player feedback that gets disregarded or gets noticed, but later gets removed.

There needs to be better priority for your fixes. I get your team isn't perfect, but they will be criticized for continued problems. I appreciate the effort immensely, however.

Those devs dont always get the choice in what they fix. Its dictated to them by higher ups.

It doesn't matter whether they get a choice. The point is that their perceived core belief that they fix things significantly contrasts with what persists in-game.

It isn't a direct criticism of devs. Of course QA is a whole other issue, especially how company resources are managed through the inner-workings. It's rather where their screwed priorities are, how they fail to approach viable feedback, and how they are slow to respond to controversial topics.

My point is how just because ZOS members have "jobs" and a "life" doesn't take away from them being worthy of criticism. Again, people want to see this game thrive; that's the point of player feedback. It isn't a scathing attack against ZOS. I would rather see them improve the game and have better self-awareness.

Elsterchen · October 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The number of thread saying ESO was dead with the sustain changes, that it would be impossible to do vMSA, ect. however argue about if the changes were fun or not, but everyone adapted pretty fast and rarely do people complain about how hard sustain is now.

Did they stop complaining, or did they stop playing?

Look, Gina is in here telling people to be nice and to stop bashing. She's right, but I think that ZOS created this environment and has been carefully nurturing it for almost 4 years, now. If ZOS had developed a relationship with the players from the start, instead of hiding back in the office, people might feel that upset when ZOS does not use their suggestions, but there would be no question as to whether ZOS heard them, or what ZOS thought about it.

"If ZOS had developed a relationship with the players from the start" <- Imo, ZOS had a well functioning, breathtaking, awesome, hard working support during beta and the month after that. I felt heard, writing them bugs, glitches and some pieces of my "l2p"-issues. I got answered by a human being actually trying hard to deciver my writings, interested in finding out my problem and able to provide solutions (from: "ty for filing the bug" to "l2p" ...).

I would not mind having them back, but I am willing to settle with any sort of transparency concerning bug reports as well.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Here's the issue as I see it Gina. There is a very solid perception that ZOS / DEVs don't care about PTS Feedback, and that perception is not simply borne out of antagonism, or belligerence. It is borne out of experience.

I was in three rounds of Closed PTS Testing for Morrowind. The DEV narrative for the changes we were seeing was that they wanted (to paraphrase what was said at the time) "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" to reduce the skill gap between "casuals" and "raiders".

From round one of testing the PTS Feedback was that the changes as proposed would do the exact opposite - that is they would lower the floor, and raise the ceiling, thus widening the skill gap between "casuals" and "raiders".

Furthermore, a significant portion of the Feedback was that this effect was so pronounced that IF the changes as proposed went live thousands of players would leave the game.

ZOS - seemingly - ignored ALL of that Feedback. The proposed changes went live with next to no impact from the PTS Feedback. The skill gap was indeed increased. The floor was lowered, the ceiling was raised. And thousands of players did in fact leave.

My main guild had - the week before Morrowind went live - well over 150 Active players. The week AFTER Morrowind it had less than 20.

Genuine, and effective feedback that you "take to heart" but do nothing with is - no matter how you try and dress it up - ignored.

Players do not come to the belief that their feedback is being ignored in isolation. If that belief exists it is because ZOS has taken actions that allowed that belief to germinate and in this case flourish.

Now, on the other side of the argument the "Developer Comments" in the Patch Notes are a step in the right direction to helping reverse this belief. However, at the moment they as often feel like "this is our justification for not listening to feedback" comments as they feel like "we listened to you and took this on board" comments.

Only you - ZOS - can change this ingrained belief that you don't really listen to feedback.

And you DON'T change it by threatening to censure those who express that belief - in fact that is the VERY BEST way to reinforce that belief.

That belief will persist, and justifiably so, until there are as many comments by ZOS on these forums that start with "We listened to your feedback and this is what we changed" as there are comments that state "You have been warned, don't say we don't listen to feedback".

You have the ball, only you can chose not to drop it.

All The Best

Rasimir · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Balance changes are always going to be a biased topic, but for bug reports it'd be nice to have a "devs have seen this" reaction (maybe even status? I.e. "investigating" "fixing" "more information required" etc) on the forums - would definitely encourage more people to test things on PTS and help find bugs.

This.

Especially something telling us "working as intended" when you think there is no bug.

Elsonso · October 2017

Elsterchen wrote: »

"If ZOS had developed a relationship with the players from the start" <- Imo, ZOS had a well functioning, breathtaking, awesome, hard working support during beta and the month after that. I felt heard, writing them bugs, glitches and some pieces of my "l2p"-issues. I got answered by a human being actually trying hard to deciver my writings, interested in finding out my problem and able to provide solutions (from: "ty for filing the bug" to "l2p" ...).

I would not mind having them back, but I am willing to settle with any sort of transparency concerning bug reports as well.

I can remember when you could get a live support person in-game.

There is a difference between support and a relationship with the players, though.

I really don't need to know the live status of every bug, or even critical bugs. They don't need to update the tickets to tell me how things are going with the bug. I really don't have the time to care, and that is not the relationship that I am talking about.

What I am talking about is responding to current events in the player community, whether it is a bug or a change in some way the game works. Rather than letting the fire "burn out" over several days or weeks, and then letting it smoulder for months, just come out and talk about it. They just need someone who can lay down what is going on, what they are thinking, and what the players can expect. This someone would do it before the situation gets out of hand. Only ZOS can prevent forum fires.

Of course, I don't mean sending someone out with one of several canned responses that are summarized as "no ETA", "Soon™", "it is something we would like to do", or "the team is looking into this". Those are deflections, and something that ZOS is already good at and does not need to do more frequently.

ZOS does not want to provide anything more than that, and there are some reasons for that. I can think of several. The practice is not without potential risks. Some responses will probably start to sound familiar, since ZOS does not always know what they are going to do, and when they are going to do it. It is possible that some responses will not be taken well, and some people will interpret any statement as a promise of action.

In an example, ZOS came out recently and talked about API changes. Jessica and the studio crafted a good response to Miat's, and came back to answer questions. This is wonderful, and what really needs to be done a lot more. There were a few places where the original statement could have been more clear, like what part of Miat's was of concern to them, and they should have provided some sort of forward looking statement on when the "changes" might be expected. (Someone thought it was going to be in Clockwork CIty) Continuing this good work, I would love to see them visit the issue again, once they do decide what they are going to do, in a manner that is not one sentence buried in the patch notes.

Galwylin · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Toxicity is sowed, nurtured and harvested. I haven't posted in these forums in months. I was one of those bashing posters who got fed up with the game with Morrowind (you remember, this would be a buff crap?) and quit. I decided to come back a few weeks ago to see how the game was but haven't been able to get into it the way I once was due to ZOS's decision to make the game unfun as much as possible without torpedoing it. I've checked back in off and on over the months and seen the rise of a toxic community grow as ZOS has continued down a road no one wants to be on. The game had the makings of being a great MMO but for some reason ZOS wanted to sidetrack that growth. That's all well and good. Its your game but there's no reason to threaten the community ZOS created. After all, if people were happy, you wouldn't have needed to make such a statement. But they aren't and its not their fault. While I'm sure there are people that just can't be pleased I refuse to believe all these folks are just toxic by nature. They at least had the stomach to stick with the game. I couldn't do that and not sure if I even want to try.

I'd suggest taking pointers from your customer service folks who I've always found to be helpful and generally pleasant to deal with. I think customer service is something they seem to understand. Something ZOS developers should remember they are in the business of providing that they expect people to pay for. Not being threatened by criticism. If you want the direction of discourse to change in the community I would suggest changing it from your end. Instead you've decided to add to it. Its apparent it is sorely needed in this game. More transparency and more communication. You should be looking for ways of making your customers happy to partake in your service not threaten regardless if warranted or not. No, bashing isn't right (I'll admit that) but enacting changes that ruin the enjoyment of your game isn't either. Especially without a clear reason for the change. I had thought you made the terrible changes of Morrowind for such a reason perhaps. But no, just wanted to curb the fun. No amount of white knights or whales are going to make the frustrations better.

And I realize this probably won't be read by the person its directed to. That's fine. It will probably be some time before I return also. Your changes still suck and time hasn't improved them. And its so nice to see yet another nightblade skill change completely. In a few years the class should look nothing like it did a year ago.

Elsonso · October 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

Toxicity is sowed, nurtured and harvested. I haven't posted in these forums in months. I was one of those bashing posters who got fed up with the game with Morrowind (you remember, this would be a buff crap?) and quit.

I found the "this is a buff if... this is a nerf if..." to be helpful in understanding the larger picture in the initial read. In this case, it was the toxicity of the people in the community that was the problem, not ZOS. ZOS should continue to do this and improve how they present it. Maybe stay away from actually saying "buff" and "nerf", as these words really have no meaning outside of an an emotional one.

Galwylin wrote: »

And I realize this probably won't be read by the person its directed to. That's fine.

It probably will be. They seem to have no issues with reading what we say.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Galwylin wrote: »

Toxicity is sowed, nurtured and harvested. I haven't posted in these forums in months. I was one of those bashing posters who got fed up with the game with Morrowind (you remember, this would be a buff crap?) and quit.

I found the "this is a buff if... this is a nerf if..." to be helpful in understanding the larger picture in the initial read. In this case, it was the toxicity of the people in the community that was the problem, not ZOS. ZOS should continue to do this and improve how they present it. Maybe stay away from actually saying "buff" and "nerf", as these words really have no meaning outside of an an emotional one.

Galwylin wrote: »

And I realize this probably won't be read by the person its directed to. That's fine.

It probably will be. They seem to have no issues with reading what we say.

No, they're definitions are really clear to anyone who even has a passing interest in these.

A buff is a concrete raise in power. A nerf is a concrete lowering of power.

This isn't about that. It's about how they communicate, and allways has been. Or rather, how they dont.

KingMagaw · October 2017

No offense but after Gina's warning, many are just ignoring this topic. This will be my last post in here because i dont want to be banned for an assumed slight against ZOS.

JinMori · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:
The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Well, if this was true, you would have listened to the hundreds of posts about class balancing, done by very good players making perfectly reasonable points, you would have listened to the fact that most people don;t like heavy attack spamming, slowing down the gameplay, you would have listened to all the players complaining about performance, and rightly so, but you don't care.

You just want to put up a good face and pretend that you care, all you care about is how much money you make at the end of the month, that's all, you don't actually want to buy new servers for the pvp players, or listen to feedback, it's been so many times that a good thing was implemented into the ptr, only to be reverted, and *** things like the morrowind sustain went through despite all the backlash.

That's because it would have costed more money to actually "fix" the game, so you just resorted to the lowest effort/cost, but also lowest player satisfaction option.

And this is why i haven't played this game since morrowind, and possibly never again, although i still have a sliver of hope, but that hope is less and less at every patch.

Balamoor · October 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

No offense but after Gina's warning, many are just ignoring this topic. This will be my last post in here because i dont want to be banned for an assumed slight against ZOS.

Okay see you in two weeks.

maboleth · October 2017

All of your Twitch players you invited at ZOS HQ to "promote the game" have left. Actually, of ALL dedicated players, only Kodi remains and some of his friends. Does that tell you anything?

We really don't know the current state this game is at the moment. I guess, the company as big as ZOS has covered all plans and stages in the shelf life of a game, ESO in this case.

Are you squeezing the last and every penny from players, knowing and expecting the game to gradually decline, drop and die? Are you working on a new game so this is getting lower and lower priorities? Or are you still being in the prime time, feeling excited, innovative and hopeful on the ESO's future? If the later is the case, something is off with your marketing and communications. You are turning many players away and thriving on OCD syndrome farmers, completionists and whales. And casuals. That's not healthy.

itscompton · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:
The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Threatening your customers for having an opinion you don't agree with, great community outreach.

FloppyTouch · October 2017

Be nice to have a pts on xb and PS4

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2017

itscompton wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:
The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Threatening your customers for having an opinion you don't agree with, great community outreach.

Was about to comment something like that too. I can imagine where this is going. But whatever, fits perfectly with "you don't have to be here". Will this comment get removed too if I say I'm going to cancel my sub after I finished CWC?

On topic: if you don't appear to take in suggestions, critic, feedback etc. you shouldn't be surprised by the backlash of the community. This and changes that are hard to make sense of (because they don't get explained) in addition to the sheer silence and long lasting bugs and imbalance paint a rather unfortunate picture.

My suggestion (I haven't read most of this thread so skip it if it already came up):

- some indicator that comments are looked at - maybe a "status" in the like of "answered" etc.

- explaining why changes are made and an outlook on the bigger picture if it's something that the community has problems to understand (e.g. why wrath get's removed instead of fury, resulting in an overall nerf, why curse got a second proc, how they think to change BG for it's scoring and balance issues etc.)

- a summary after each weak with a few words on controversial topics. Doesn't even have to be a "final word", just interim status.

- some words when and why feedback doesn't get considered (deadlines, vision of more changes in the future)

ak_pvp · October 2017

PvE and bug fixes etc are very well done. In fact this DLC might have been one of the best.

PvP and combat balance may be the worst out of any game I have ever played. The devs for this almost deserve bashing. Bugs, bugs bugs. Lag. Cyros limited content. Awful changes. Killing counters. Ignoring feedback. Taking forever to fix things, or not even acknowledging issues. (1yr to fix procs seriously.)

paulsgruff · October 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I think one of the big reasons people often feel like their voice goes unheard, is due to there being no real way for them to know that the issue or concern they have raised has been seen by anyone that is in a position to do something about it.

Something as simple as a way that a developer can mark a thread/post on the forum as 'Seen by developer' would at least let people know that their efforts of posting issues aren't going unnoticed. It would also allow developers to easily search for threads 'not yet seen' in the PTS bug forums or feedback threads etc.

**The Reason Why The PTS is Pretty Much Pointless I Can Tell You Why.**

The Reason Why The PTS is Pretty Much Pointless I Can Tell You Why.