**The Reason Why The PTS is Pretty Much Pointless I Can Tell You Why.**

Elsonso

Turelus wrote: »

The number of thread saying ESO was dead with the sustain changes, that it would be impossible to do vMSA, ect. however argue about if the changes were fun or not, but everyone adapted pretty fast and rarely do people complain about how hard sustain is now.

Did they stop complaining, or did they stop playing?

Look, Gina is in here telling people to be nice and to stop bashing. She's right, but I think that ZOS created this environment and has been carefully nurturing it for almost 4 years, now. If ZOS had developed a relationship with the players from the start, instead of hiding back in the office, people might feel that upset when ZOS does not use their suggestions, but there would be no question as to whether ZOS heard them, or what ZOS thought about it.

usmcjdking

This is worse than the previous thread on this exact same topic.

Some of the most entitled "NOTICE ME DEV SENPAI" garbage I've ever read on any forum.

Yngol

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

By that logic, isn't the existence of the pts unfair? Also, I the beta monkey is also something that wasn't accesible to console player, yes those who took part still have them?

I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to come up with some sort of reward. I have plenty of ideas

Also, while I totally believe that you do take PTS feedback seriously, do you see why some might have trouble believing it? Very little to no acknowledgement is directed toward those who report bugs. Just as an example, it was reported week 2-3 of the pts that fossilize has a 2m effective range instead of the adverties 8m one. All the players see that the bug has been reported, and then went to live. Now, if a dev at any point has said that "we saw this, working on fixing it, but it won't be done 'till after launch", people wouldn't have felt as let down.

KingMagaw

lordrichter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The number of thread saying ESO was dead with the sustain changes, that it would be impossible to do vMSA, ect. however argue about if the changes were fun or not, but everyone adapted pretty fast and rarely do people complain about how hard sustain is now.

Did they stop complaining, or did they stop playing?

Exactly what i think also. Some people simply left and/or got tired of giving feedback.

Balamoor

Jamini wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.
[*] The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Any half-decent bugtracker/ticketing system lists the reporting party. It's trivial to identify who first brought up a unique issue if your internal bug tracker has even the most base of features.

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Virtually none of the overwhelming feedback given on the PTS in the last year that I've been here has went in, except for REMOVING a much-needed nerf to an over-performing class and changing said nerf into an outright buff.. Multiple reported bugs have made it to live as well.

Frankly, I've seen feedback not only ignored but have actions taken directly in the opposite manner that your player-base wanted/recommended on more than one occasion.

Please don't treat your player-base like idiots.

Dude.....

Just because the team doesn't want to take the advice of every armchair developer doesn't mean they are treating the player base like idiots. If the devs listen to half of these geniuses that want their pet vision enacted, there would be a mass exodus the gaming community hasn't seen since SWG NGE. No one is going to take PTS feedback seriously from forum users that spend 8 to 16 hours a day thinking up new ways to say ZoS sucks

Also

This dev team and CM's have been excruciatingly patient with the single most toxic forum community this side of League of Legends, I'm glad Gina and the rest of the CM's are stopping the incessant company/dev/game bashing. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but what we have had on this forum is anything but constructive, and it kills any positive community feelings people who actually like the game has. The same people have been hating on the game since it launched, and it isn't because they want to see a better game, they hate on it because the forum trollo to them is much more fun than any game they can play. Devs from other companies have found that out and have put a end to it, and I'm hoping that ZoS finally have as well.

Balamoor

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

HatchetHaro

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

Balamoor

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

The type of transparency most are asking for will only lead to more gripe fest and more cries of micro management from the people who are trying to do that already, the users aren't co developers, their feedback is useful, but at the end of the day the professionals decide what is and isn't a priority.

And....hate to tell you but, the forum users are not the ones in charge here, the CM's and mods are, and there are rules (trust me Iv'e read em) that already backed up what she nicely asked, you should feel lucky.

I have seen Characters fed to dragons and accounts deleted for much less at Square Enix.

brandonv516

The PTS is pointless and I can tell you why...

I'm strictly a console player and I will never be able to truly influence or shape anything in the testing phase before it goes live.

Sure I can come on these forums and tell you "I don't like that" or "that won't work", but unless I actually try it first hand it really doesn't matter what I say. If by some chance my opinion does change something, then the system is flawed. I shouldn't even have access to post on the PTS forums.

And I'm okay with all of that. I'm also okay with PC players going on the PTS to find the next best build or beat the next hardest content before live. It doesn't hurt my ruckus one bit.

I'm not okay with major flaws being shuffled to the back of the line though.

For what it's worth, I also don't think players need rewards for playing around in a sandbox.

HatchetHaro

Balamoor wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

The type of transparency most are asking for will only lead to more gripe fest and more cries of micro management from the people who are trying to do that already, the users aren't co developers, their feedback is useful, but at the end of the day the professionals decide what is and isn't a priority.

And....hate to tell you but, the forum users are not the ones in charge here, the CM's and mods are, and there are rules (trust me Iv'e read em) that already backed up what she nicely asked, you should feel lucky.

I have seen Characters fed to dragons and accounts deleted for much less at Square Enix.

I do not condone bashing at all. I am just saying that there's a reason for this bashing that's happening, and the reason isn't that the players are naturally toxic fetchers; ZOS has a track record of pushing forward unwanted changes and broken features even through overwhelmingly negative feedback, and make the players feel as if their entire month of testing in the PTS and years of gameplay in the live game are just wasted.

Unfortunately for all of us, the only way to really stop this stream of negativity is transparency. It's still going to be a step in the right direction, so people would at least stop bashing devs for ignorance and offer much more in-depth feedback based on dev reasoning.

Really, you can't change the community. We're just doing what we do best: react to changes. Negative reactions are always going to be louder, like it or hate it. When we start hating the game more than we enjoy it, we'll react with pocketing our wallets.

usmcjdking

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

The type of transparency most are asking for will only lead to more gripe fest and more cries of micro management from the people who are trying to do that already, the users aren't co developers, their feedback is useful, but at the end of the day the professionals decide what is and isn't a priority.

And....hate to tell you but, the forum users are not the ones in charge here, the CM's and mods are, and there are rules (trust me Iv'e read em) that already backed up what she nicely asked, you should feel lucky.

I have seen Characters fed to dragons and accounts deleted for much less at Square Enix.

I do not condone bashing at all. I am just saying that there's a reason for this bashing that's happening, and the reason isn't that the players are naturally toxic fetchers; ZOS has a track record of pushing forward unwanted changes and broken features even through overwhelmingly negative feedback, and make the players feel as if their entire month of testing in the PTS and years of gameplay in the live game are just wasted.

Unfortunately for all of us, the only way to really stop this stream of negativity is transparency. It's still going to be a step in the right direction, so people would at least stop bashing devs for ignorance and offer much more in-depth feedback based on dev reasoning.

Really, you can't change the community. We're just doing what we do best: react to changes. Negative reactions are always going to be louder, like it or hate it. When we start hating the game more than we enjoy it, we'll react with pocketing our wallets.

Or, they can start suspending or banning accounts from forum access. Or outright close the forums. Or simply stop providing any resources to the forums. There are literally 10+ ways for them to deal with the endless amount of stupidity that comes out of the playerbase and all of them have minimal impact on their job security.

MasterSpatula

Balamoor wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

IMO, ZOS owns a lot of the responsibility for that.

They ask their paying customers to QC their product for free. The customers do so. The customers point out serious bugs in threads that stretch on to hundreds of posts. The customers point out serious harm done to gameplay by ZOS's intentional changes. They do this in everything from emotional screeds to reasoned, near-disertation-length essays with math and solid logic. The dev team fails to acknowledge in any way these reports. The bugs go live and seriously damage the experience, causing the need for emergency maintenance. The bad design decisions go live, resulting in precisely the damage to gameplay predicted by both the reasonable and by the over-emotional.

ZOS fails to communicate acknowledgement of the community's work. ZOS fails to apologize for not fixing bugs that were reported on the PTS before being pushed to live or even to acknowledge that these bugs were well-known before they went live.

Anyone who understands human nature even a little bit knows what the results of this will be. That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but blame isn't a zero-sum game. You can be 100% responsible for your tantrums while the person you're mad at ALSO owns blame for treating you poorly.

And ZOS's communication is poor treatment of us. ZOS's failure to fix reported bugs and to take seriously PTS players reports on bad gameplay decisions is poor treatment of us. ZOS failure to explain, if they're going to disregard our "QC reports," why they have decided to do so is poor treatment of us.

While it doesn't excuse people lashing out, if you know people feel ignored and don't address it, you own a lot of the blame for them acting exactly like people who feel ignored tend to do--especially when they're your customers.

I've said it before on this forum: More communication could stave off a lot of these problems. It's a lot easier to see the worst in someone you have no personal experience with. I remember from my days as a Star Wars: Galaxies player, it's a lot harder to rage at the head combat developer when he's posted in the joke thread you're participating in, when he's responded to one of your questions, when he's shown a little bit of his personality to you, when he's made himself a person and a part of the community.

Then there's ESO. ZOS makes decisions that make no sense to me, decisions that seem cruel in nature. I rack my brain for any reason why anyone would make some of the decisions this company makes, and I swear, the only reason I can come with is pure malice. The constant addition of more and more RNG grinds with atrocious droprates, at this point, seems like nothing but a desire to create misery. Maybe if The guy who sets droprates got on this forum and cracked a joke every once in a while, I'd find it harder to imagine him as a cruel person who giggles at the thought of creating misery among his own customers. But I have no idea who this person is, so in my mind, he's exactly that cackling, sociopathic fiend. I have no reason to think otherwise, and Occam's Razor seems, to me , to insist he must be.

And don't even get me started on the Morrowind sustain nerfs and how Wrobel, on this forum and on ESO live, only answered the questions that he wanted to answer and pretended that questions that got to the very premise of the nerf might as well never have been asked. You want people to respect you and people to feel you respect them, you have to address the tough questions, not just the easy or convenient ones.

Communication has been a serious problem for this company since before launch. There'd be a lot more discussion and a lot less rage around here if the players felt they knew the people they're upset with and felt those people took them seriously.

Instead we get this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

, which reminds me a lot of a parent who's screwed up and is more upset about having their authority questioned than by their own mistake. Maybe that's the wrong impression, but that's how it reads to me, and mine is a predictable response which should have been predicted. And it only feeds this feeling of not being respected.

HatchetHaro

usmcjdking wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

The type of transparency most are asking for will only lead to more gripe fest and more cries of micro management from the people who are trying to do that already, the users aren't co developers, their feedback is useful, but at the end of the day the professionals decide what is and isn't a priority.

And....hate to tell you but, the forum users are not the ones in charge here, the CM's and mods are, and there are rules (trust me Iv'e read em) that already backed up what she nicely asked, you should feel lucky.

I have seen Characters fed to dragons and accounts deleted for much less at Square Enix.

I do not condone bashing at all. I am just saying that there's a reason for this bashing that's happening, and the reason isn't that the players are naturally toxic fetchers; ZOS has a track record of pushing forward unwanted changes and broken features even through overwhelmingly negative feedback, and make the players feel as if their entire month of testing in the PTS and years of gameplay in the live game are just wasted.

Unfortunately for all of us, the only way to really stop this stream of negativity is transparency. It's still going to be a step in the right direction, so people would at least stop bashing devs for ignorance and offer much more in-depth feedback based on dev reasoning.

Really, you can't change the community. We're just doing what we do best: react to changes. Negative reactions are always going to be louder, like it or hate it. When we start hating the game more than we enjoy it, we'll react with pocketing our wallets.

Or, they can start suspending or banning accounts from forum access. Or outright close the forums. Or simply stop providing any resources to the forums. There are literally 10+ ways for them to deal with the endless amount of stupidity that comes out of the playerbase and all of them have minimal impact on their job security.

I like how you say "endless amount of stupidity", like you're devaluing all of the feedback from everyone.

I agree that not all feedback is good feedback. However, not all feedback is bad feedback either. There's plenty of reasoning for each individual's ideas and suggestions, good or bad. Again, that's just the community doing what they do best.

I mean, if they do the complete opposite of what I suggested (more transparency) and completely cut off their community, well, there's really no stopping the negative reviews that are going to pop up all over gaming sites, is there? The game's and game devs' reputation is in the community's collective grubby claws, and as we all know from Gina's response to this thread, ZOS cares about their reputation.

Balamoor

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

IMO, ZOS owns a lot of the responsibility for that.

Snip

It was a well written response @MasterSpatula, but honestly it was nothing more than eloquent victim blaming.

MasterSpatula

Balamoor wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

IMO, ZOS owns a lot of the responsibility for that.

Snip

It was a well written response @MasterSpatula, but honestly it was nothing more than eloquent victim blaming.

As I said, blame isn't a zero-sum game. If, for example, I flame-bait you and you flame me, you own 100% of the blame for your flaming. Nothing I did required you to take the bait. Nonetheless, I still own blame as well. I knew how you'd likely react. In no way does that absolve you.

Likewise, a company who knows its players feel disrespected and doesn't address the problem owns blame for the predictable responses of their customers, even if those customers own the blame for their own behavior.

I don't see a victim here. This isn't pathos; it's tragedy. There's poor behavior on both sides.

Balamoor

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This isn't how it works.

Lack of transparency or results will always make people feel like their feedback is being ignored. The time taken on much-needed fixes and balance changes is also a huge problem. The longer this goes on, the worse the company's reputation gets. This is what we have now: a lot of negative feedback on the state of the game's development.

If it's bashing, well, only transparency and involvement in the community can stop it. This "everyone's warning" stuff isn't helping at all.

The type of transparency most are asking for will only lead to more gripe fest and more cries of micro management from the people who are trying to do that already, the users aren't co developers, their feedback is useful, but at the end of the day the professionals decide what is and isn't a priority.

And....hate to tell you but, the forum users are not the ones in charge here, the CM's and mods are, and there are rules (trust me Iv'e read em) that already backed up what she nicely asked, you should feel lucky.

I have seen Characters fed to dragons and accounts deleted for much less at Square Enix.

I do not condone bashing at all. I am just saying that there's a reason for this bashing that's happening, and the reason isn't that the players are naturally toxic fetchers; ZOS has a track record of pushing forward unwanted changes and broken features even through overwhelmingly negative feedback, and make the players feel as if their entire month of testing in the PTS and years of gameplay in the live game are just wasted.

Unfortunately for all of us, the only way to really stop this stream of negativity is transparency. It's still going to be a step in the right direction, so people would at least stop bashing devs for ignorance and offer much more in-depth feedback based on dev reasoning.

Really, you can't change the community. We're just doing what we do best: react to changes. Negative reactions are always going to be louder, like it or hate it. When we start hating the game more than we enjoy it, we'll react with pocketing our wallets.

I get you don't condone it....we just are going to have to agree to disagree, I have been with developers who tried the Transparency, SOE when they invited Raid Leaders to their office, Mythic after the Trails of Atlantis issues, Turbine after Mines of Moria....in every case honest attempts at Transparency lead to a lord of the Flies atmosphere a crap ton of regrets and an even bigger us Vs them mentality.


I also disagree that you can't change the community.

Arenanet did as did Square Enix, both of the companies spotlighted players who have offered constructive feedback and dropped a piano (As in banned both forum and in game accounts)on the haters who just spew vitriol consistently, the result is a more friendly helpful community that many believe has actually helped those communities grow.

I think it can happen here as well.

HatchetHaro

Balamoor wrote: »

I also disagree that you can't change the community.

Arenanet did as did Square Enix, both of the companies spotlighted players who have offered constructive feedback and dropped a piano (As in banned both forum and in game accounts)on the haters who just spew vitriol consistently, the result is a more friendly helpful community that many believe has actually helped those communities grow.

I think it can happen here as well.

Holy crap, yes! I completely forgot about this!

Spotlighting constructive feedback is a great way of telling the community what they would like to get. I'm certain that this will definitely be much more of a positive change.

That's a prime example of good transparency, and is definitely going to be a step in the right direction. Seriously, this is a great take on the point I'm trying to make.

Balamoor

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

I also disagree that you can't change the community.

Arenanet did as did Square Enix, both of the companies spotlighted players who have offered constructive feedback and dropped a piano (As in banned both forum and in game accounts)on the haters who just spew vitriol consistently, the result is a more friendly helpful community that many believe has actually helped those communities grow.

I think it can happen here as well.

Holy crap, yes! I completely forgot about this!

Spotlighting constructive feedback is a great way of telling the community what they would like to get. I'm certain that this will definitely be much more of a positive change.

That's a prime example of good transparency, and is definitely going to be a step in the right direction. Seriously, this is a great take on the point I'm trying to make.

You mean we agree...on the internet...

Inconceivable!

:-D

eso_lags

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:

• The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.
• Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

This is probably the best post ive ever seen from Gina.. I dont agree with some things the devs do, like ignoring the lag issues, and not balancing pve and pvp separately.. But this post seems real, and actually makes me think you guys do value the communities opinion.. I think honesty goes pretty far in this community and if you guys just came out and said why you cant or wont do certain things, like you did in this post, it would make a lot more of us feel like you guys actually listen to us...

Ive seen other mmos where the devs frequently talk to the community and debate/engage with us about things that the community wants and why it cant happen, or how it maybe possible.. Granted this usually takes place on reddit and not the official forums, but it happens there as well.. This post was awesome, i think you guys need to post like this more.. People scream about bad changes and bugs that go through all the time, then we wonder why they get through.. A simple reason post will help, or if you guys just think something is best then thats it.. Idk i just thought this felt real and honest..

And im in a particularly pissed mood tonight since im sitting here trying to log in and I haven't been able to log into my game at prime time since this witches event started.. But even with that going on i liked this..

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.
[*] The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.

Any half-decent bugtracker/ticketing system lists the reporting party. It's trivial to identify who first brought up a unique issue if your internal bug tracker has even the most base of features.

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Virtually none of the overwhelming feedback given on the PTS in the last year that I've been here has went in, except for REMOVING a much-needed nerf to an over-performing class and changing said nerf into an outright buff.. Multiple reported bugs have made it to live as well.

Frankly, I've seen feedback not only ignored but have actions taken directly in the opposite manner that your player-base wanted/recommended on more than one occasion.

Please don't treat your player-base like idiots.

Dude.....

Just because the team doesn't want to take the advice of every armchair developer doesn't mean they are treating the player base like idiots. If the devs listen to half of these geniuses that want their pet vision enacted, there would be a mass exodus the gaming community hasn't seen since SWG NGE. No one is going to take PTS feedback seriously from forum users that spend 8 to 16 hours a day thinking up new ways to say ZoS sucks

Also

This dev team and CM's have been excruciatingly patient with the single most toxic forum community this side of League of Legends, I'm glad Gina and the rest of the CM's are stopping the incessant company/dev/game bashing. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but what we have had on this forum is anything but constructive, and it kills any positive community feelings people who actually like the game has. The same people have been hating on the game since it launched, and it isn't because they want to see a better game, they hate on it because the forum trollo to them is much more fun than any game they can play. Devs from other companies have found that out and have put a end to it, and I'm hoping that ZoS finally have as well.

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism. I could point to many examples. Most of them tank nerfs, that while the majority of one side of the playerbase reviled, still went through. And yet the line is the same. "We want your feedback".

What use is screaming at void? There is no use.

I -like- this game. I -like- most of the people on the community team. Gina, is a nice person. Most of them are nice people. But does that mean they do a good job? That's something different entirely. And I wont stop saying I hate how they handle PTS feedback.

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

IMO, ZOS owns a lot of the responsibility for that.

Snip

It was a well written response @MasterSpatula, but honestly it was nothing more than eloquent victim blaming.

Victim blaming my bottom.

There's a thing called bias. You have become it.

Not everyone that critisizes ZOS is a harasser laying in wait. These things do not equate.

Erraln

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism. I could point to many examples. Most of them tank nerfs, that while the majority of one side of the playerbase reviled, still went through. And yet the line is the same. "We want your feedback".

What use is screaming at void? There is no use.

I -like- this game. I -like- most of the people on the community team. Gina, is a nice person. Most of them are nice people. But does that mean they do a good job? That's something different entirely. And I wont stop saying I hate how they handle PTS feedback.

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

Have you considered the possibility that with character utility reduction changes, the feedback Zeni wanted to see was five threads of upset hardcore players begging for it not to happen, as confirmation that we haven't found a way out of the intended design? That it might not be the void you're screaming at, but a smile?

MasterSpatula

Erraln wrote: »

Have you considered the possibility that with character utility reduction changes, the feedback Zeni wanted to see was five threads of upset hardcore players begging for it not to happen, as confirmation that we haven't found a way out of the intended design? That it might not be the void you're screaming at, but a smile?

Great. And what about the many non-hardcores who were hit hardest by the "solution" to a problem that they didn't have? ZOS ignored every single comment pointing out that they were presenting a unilateral solution to a problem affecting a limited population. The void might actually be the less-terrible scenario.

LukosCreyden

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is utterly insulting for you to post this Gina.

Yet it's okay to continually insult, humiliate and berate developers and the company


Nice.

IMO, ZOS owns a lot of the responsibility for that.

Snip

It was a well written response @MasterSpatula, but honestly it was nothing more than eloquent victim blaming.

Not everyone that critisizes ZOS is a harasser laying in wait. These things do not equate.

That rhymed.

Tendrielle

"First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues."

I personally think players who take the time and effort to go an PTS and hence improve the play experience for any player (console or PC) later, should be rewarded. They use time they could do other things, like improving their chars/gold/whatever stack on live or do something else in RL the same time.

Seriously, why not grant them the time on PTS (logged in and active) as a free subscription added? I am sure, it is worth much more than that.

Elsonso

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

They have been treating us like idiots. On more than one occasion we've been outright told 'you dont have to be here' in response to criticism.

Just so you know, Rich was right to say that, just as Gina is right about bashing.

I don't think they treat us like idiots. Personally, I would characterize it more like Children. They are the developers, and they do the Adult stuff, we are Children and we are supposed to play. It is a nice concept based on the idea that we should just be out there enjoying the game. They will take care of everything.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

If most of our feedback is ignored, because of a deadline, or because the devs genuinely think the change is good, -fine-. I'd settle, for them saying that plainly and with no doubt. But they dont. It's just radio silence.

This is what I consider to be the core problem, and why I characterize our relationship with ZOS to be Parent-Child in nature. Children are easily dismissed when they nose in on Adult things. Children do not usually receive reasons why Adults do things, and if they do, it is generally the simplified version. Parents do not typically share the details of Adult decisions with the kids.

Maybe there are just Children in here. Perhaps they pull out the "Older Children" in these round tables that they hold, and that is the way to go. I don't think so.

I think it is the wrong model for them to be following. They have improved, though. They do have some Developer Comments in the patch notes, but these often raise as many questions as they answer. Maybe if the CM staff could roll up a few of the first comments and get a Developer Comments Followup later in the week, that would be a good next step.

The problem that I see is that the flow of information about the game and decisions that are being made is limited or does not exist. Maybe the bottleneck is that they simply don't have the time. Maybe they don't want to respond because their comment might prevent a good idea from coming to the surface. Maybe they have already decided and feel the discourse is not a good use of time. Whatever. This void of information results in faulty assumptions and conspiracy theories, which then generate rage and anger based on those. The trail continues, and it is often associated with "unsub" comments. While this cannot be prevented, it can certainly be blunted and partially stopped.

It is definitely in their interest to nerf "unsub" comments before they get posted. If the person legitimately disagrees with the direction that ZOS is going, or that ZOS does not do as they command, that is one thing. If they are "caught up in the moment" or basing their decisions on the faulty assumptions and conspiracy theories, then if they unsub or leave the game, that is the fault of ZOS for not communicating properly.

Tendrielle wrote: »

Seriously, why not grant them the time on PTS (logged in and active) as a free subscription added? I am sure, it is worth much more than that.

They have already listed the fact that Console players cannot participate on PTS as a reason for not wanting to do stuff of this type, namely rewards.

TazESO

Shorter answer: PTS must be waste of time because their pet peeve / desired change didn’t make it to live. Grow the *** up peeps. Not everything can be fixed as fast as you want, and not everyone gets their way. And, some things will never be “fixed”. Sad, but true.

I believe ZOS does at least try to make a good faith effort, given budget realities and competing priorities. We need to assume this good faith effort and give reasonable feedback when possible, without strings attached, or GTFO.


Yes, I work in Corporate Amerika IT and see this *** every day. In “my world” I know of problems that will never be fixed, limited resources, Herculean efforts by some, pet projects will be done despite competing resources, so many other WTF moments.

I am amazed the game is as good as it is; I suspect it’s a labor of love by some/many within the ZOS machine, and I thank you all, and the community for everything you all do to make TESO the great game it is, warts and all.

Peace.

TheValkyn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

"Warning" your customers when they are displeased is a bad move. I hope your day is better today than it was yesterday. That's the only reason I could think of for such a poor response.

People paid real money for something you've switched around and done a 180 with. They are going to be upset when that happens. Expecting them not to be is nonsensical.

Elsonso

TazESO wrote: »

I am amazed the game is as good as it is; I suspect it’s a labor of love by some/many within the ZOS machine, and I thank you all, and the community for everything you all do to make TESO the great game it is, warts and all.

I see the same thing. The game is better than the studio appears to be capable of producing. I attribute this to exceptionally skilled developers that were able to put out much of the game before the constraints were put in place, or who were able to put out what they did despite the constraints because they are just that good.

JonnytheKing

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok, want to address a few things here.

First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues. For example:

• The more bugs you report, the more rewards you get! This won't work because players might simply report random things as bugs just so they can reach the threshold.
• Log in/complete a thing/get to this point and you get a reward! This isn't quite fair to our console players who don't have access to the PTS. We could just do rewards that already exist, but where's the incentive with that?

As for us "not caring" about PTS feedback, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Many of our devs stay late just to read your feedback, whether it be on new systems, areas, or yes, even combat balance and changes. We've mentioned this before, but just because we don't change something doesn't mean we aren't reading and taking it to heart. PTS is extremely valuable not just for feedback, but also bug reports. Look at each week's patch notes - you are a big part of why things get found!

Everyone, let's please stop bashing the team or making assumptions. This is your first and last warning.

Thank you for the replay and as for what you have said, (First, we've thought about ways to incentivize participation on the PTS, but have always run into issues.) of couse its not going to be easy , but in the long run it will help the game in big ways . All great things dont come easy, ill look in to this and find some thing you could do , ill expect a pay check next week tho lol