ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHINGInterview With Miat Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

geonsocal · October 2017

howdy @Dorrino ...getting past the whole should it exist or shouldn't it - which is basically a mute point until our dungeon master, zos makes a more definitive statement or action...

although i do take great joy in trolling from time to time here on the forums - the truth is - i don't want anyone judging me or picking apart my every word or action...not so sure my self esteem would survive

i would imagine you have a pretty extensive background in coding...

i'm super curious as to exactly how difficult and time consuming is it to be able to create a program of this nature...

i'm not really all that familiar with the different add on stuff...to be honest i just recently became aware of the "creation club" stuff...i'm old, lazy and not all that tech savy

is this sort of thing the way of the future - wherein individual folks with the knowledge and will can have the opportunity to customize a game to their own vision?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · October 2017

geonsocal wrote: »

hey man - what the hecks happened to that great: my response to my miat video thread???

it appears to have been erased from the anals of history...

It got the full "memory hole" deletion process. LOL

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4577715#Comment_4577715

Osteos · October 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can we take all of the drama, noise, and disagreement and refine it into ONE question for ZOS?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

ZOS: In your design philosophy for stealth combat, should players be able to detect (via add-on) the actions of stealthed enemies WITHOUT having to see them or reveal them first via in-game anti-stealth mechanics (magelight, detect pots, etc).

If so, will you retract this statement from @ZOS_ChipHilseberg ?

If not, what do you intend to do with the API to prevent detection of attacks originating in stealth?

THE END.

Seriously, all we need to do as a community is to get an answer to that question. Miat already asked this question and got an answer but that answer doesn't square up with ZOS's actions. If Chip is correct, then the API (as it currently functions) doesn't match the design vision. So what gives? The ball is in ZOS's court.

This really is all that matters and should have been the end of this thread.

DDuke · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

Ironically I just dueled a guy 10 mins. ago that was using a double bow setup and even though he died in the end, he was very elusive and his damage was pretty decent too. Much respect for originality.

It's a lot of fun to play too and has a high skill cap/steep learning curve - would be a shame if these builds remained unviable because of some bloody addon telling people when to dodge

PvP desperately needs that fresh breath of air in form of new builds & playstyles.

DDuke · October 2017

Osteos wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can we take all of the drama, noise, and disagreement and refine it into ONE question for ZOS?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

ZOS: In your design philosophy for stealth combat, should players be able to detect (via add-on) the actions of stealthed enemies WITHOUT having to see them or reveal them first via in-game anti-stealth mechanics (magelight, detect pots, etc).

If so, will you retract this statement from @ZOS_ChipHilseberg ?

If not, what do you intend to do with the API to prevent detection of attacks originating in stealth?

THE END.

Seriously, all we need to do as a community is to get an answer to that question. Miat already asked this question and got an answer but that answer doesn't square up with ZOS's actions. If Chip is correct, then the API (as it currently functions) doesn't match the design vision. So what gives? The ball is in ZOS's court.

This really is all that matters and should have been the end of this thread.

Won't be an end to this thread or others until this is addressed by ZOS, I can promise you that.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

Ironically I just dueled a guy 10 mins. ago that was using a double bow setup and even though he died in the end, he was very elusive and his damage was pretty decent too. Much respect for originality.

It's a lot of fun to play too and has a high skill cap/steep learning curve - would be a shame if these builds remained unviable because of some bloody addon telling people when to dodge

PvP desperately needs that fresh breath of air in form of new builds & playstyles.

I would say PVP could use a whole update just for itself, and before that - a whole update just fixing bugs, performance issues and polishing. But sadly, PVE content & Crown Store comes first, no exceptions.

thedude33 · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

@Yiko you are awesome

@Dduke, LegendaryMage (not tagging you, honey) and some others

I'm not trying to fight you, guys.
I'm not trying to defend cheating.
I'm not trying to make pvp worse to make up for my own deficiencies.
I'm not trying to enjoy a cheap fame.

I'm sincerely trying to help make pvp less frustrating and more fair place.

My view of pvp might be biased.
I might be wrong, with my understanding pvp in general.
But i'm doing my best to help it in the best way that i can see.

If you want proofs about my pvp skill level and you don't want to ask hundreds of people that fought me (or saw me fighting) in Vivec/Trueflame/Azura NA over the years i'll duel you and i'll kill you so you could finally set aside your blind prejudice and finally agree to listen to me.

You can prove me wrong. You can change my opinion. That's awesome.

Just talk to me. Don't turn yet another thread on these forums into a heap of hate.

I'm not your enemy, never was and never will be even if i happen to win a fight against you in pvp.

I respect your opinions even if you coat them with hatred, disgust and mocking.

I'll keep treating you as respectable human beings despite all that.

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Now, go ahead and have fun in ESO as much as you can. I really couldn't care less what ZOS does with the game at this point, I've been here way longer than you to see that even if one thing gets fixed, 5 others will get broken in the process.

The gauntlet has been thrown down by LM. Guess it's time for another 'balancing' Addon to be created by miat ...for the good of the game.

Riejael · October 2017

Osteos wrote: »

This really is all that matters and should have been the end of this thread.

ZOS loses no matter which route they take. The forums blow up if they come out and say they're letting the addon stay. And if they announce that they are closing API info to combat the addon, they tick off 75% of the PVE community when some of the functionality of their addons is removed.

If I was the one in charge. I'd choose to let the topic die off. And if I did decide to fix anything I'd do it as part of a major update, that way all addons are broken anyway and need to be rewritten and even though people lose functionalities they can pass that ire to the addon developers.

Not that making them look bad would be the goal, but the community is a little more forgiving of addon devs than game devs. So it helps cool everyone off faster and move on.

Point being. They're not going to do anything about this. They had their chance in Morrowind. Hell they had their chance at the beginning of the thread. Suffice to say, you all have the answer you're going to get.

The question now, is what do you all plan to do with that information? Balls are in your courts.

thedude33 · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

"Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all."

Great players don't make a game changing addon to promote their vision. That's what you would call arrogance.

thedude33 · October 2017

... and the more relevant question should be, how is this addon good for the game? How is taking away a primary attack from a pvp player good for the game?

Dorrino · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

"Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all."

Then stop being arrogant going around labeling yourself as 'the best stamblade NA' telling players how you'll kill them, how they can't kill you and what not. Then when you try and bite a bit more than you can chew, try and poke someone who actually CAN put you down consistently, you resort to attacking them on the basis of being egoistic, and then in the end you don't even show up lol

I offered to fight you with less than optimal conditions on the PTS and where are you? Rolling around in Cyrodiil killing potatoes and tripping how you're doing something challenging.

I don't have anything to prove to you, myself or anyone else. I offered you a friendly challenge which you misinterpreted entirely.

As i told you 2 times already i'll indulge you with a duel if you publicly apologize after you lose.

'Friendly duel' sounds like a mockery after your attitude towards me in each your post.

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

I won't discuss how bad your opponents were. It's relevant to 1v1 bow viability, but is irrelevant to the discussion about the addon.

You didn't snipe from stealth, therefore your snipes channels were perfectly visible to your opponents. Therefore my addon would've been irrelevant to the result.

Nothing about the duels can be improved by using the addon.

You're not getting xv1'ed in duels. You're not getting ganked in duels.

Unlike some people who imagined that the addon helps everywhere i've always been saying that it's not about 1v1 at all. It's about higher awareness in Cyro environment.

You video perfectly demonstrated that the addon doesn't affect snipe effectiveness in 1v1.

KingMagaw · October 2017

Another day goes by without any input from ZoS so this topic goes nowhere other than being shutdown hoping players forget/quit over it:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Dorrino · October 2017

geonsocal wrote: »

howdy @Dorrino ...getting past the whole should it exist or shouldn't it - which is basically a mute point until our dungeon master, zos makes a more definitive statement or action...

although i do take great joy in trolling from time to time here on the forums - the truth is - i don't want anyone judging me or picking apart my every word or action...not so sure my self esteem would survive

i would imagine you have a pretty extensive background in coding...

i'm super curious as to exactly how difficult and time consuming is it to be able to create a program of this nature...

i'm not really all that familiar with the different add on stuff...to be honest i just recently became aware of the "creation club" stuff...i'm old, lazy and not all that tech savy

It's not hard if you got a coding background.

ESOUI.com hosts addon-authors community. Ui devs help from time to time with both clarifications about how API works and implementing some new features from the community wish-list.

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

geonsocal wrote: »

is this sort of thing the way of the future - wherein individual folks with the knowledge and will can have the opportunity to customize a game to their own vision?

Not in mmo department, because it's a heavily regulated environment.

But otherwise there's indeed a trend and a demand for 'customize your world' type of game design approach.

'Theme-park' mmos are not suited for that at all.

This hysteria about UI customization is quite unique to eso. Other games either have a valid communication channel with devs about UI additions (GW2) and they are getting case-by-case approvals or passed the phase of rejection of UI addons many years ago (WoW). Or don't allow for any UI customization of this sort (lotro, rift and many others).

We wouldn't have this reaction in ESO if devs communicated about this issue. Thus uniqueness.

Riejael · October 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

... and the more relevant question should be, how is this addon good for the game? How is taking away a primary attack from a pvp player good for the game?

How the hell is that a player's responsibility? If that ire was directed at ZOS, I'd actually agree.

But its not. You expect everyone to design addons how YOU want them to. You expect everyone to use addons YOU approve of. How far does it go? Do you call people out for using cheap tactics in PVP? For zerging? Do you call people out for using OP builds/specs?

Get over yourself. You don't get to decide who gets to use what. You only get to decide what you get to use. If you choose not to use something and lose because of it, that's only yourself to blame.

Dorrino · October 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Listen sweetie, I've been dueling since launch of the game, kept the dueling scene active on PC EU all this time, dueled tens of thousands of players and who knows how many more along the years. To be honest, I don't think that there's anyone in this whole game that has had more duels under their belt than me. I am probably the only PC EU player who has dueled dozens of your 'best skilled NA players' as well, and you don't want to go in there either.

You should stop throwing taunts around, there is literally only one PC EU stam NB on a highly DEDICATED dueling build that can even compete with my sorc, and that's not you.

The problem with this type of bragging is that it tries to push exclusivity on the basis of experience.

I could write a similar type of 'i did that and killed that and thousands and thousands' and since i've seen how you play i could easily tell you that 'i fought great sorcs and that's not you'. And unlike your statement i'd have ground for that.

But what's the point?

The only reason i poked your ego was your offensive and inappropriate behavior.

There's one thing that distinguish great players from good players. In any game in the world.

Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all.

So a great player would never have try to assert dominance, by preassuming inferiority in other people. Great players love to find somebody of a similar level, because everything else is too easy and boring.

I mentioned my pvp skills only to try to stop false personal insults and assumptions.

You mention yours to intimidate the opponent.

You could've researched the subject. You could've asked around. You could've asked me.

Instead you added arrogance on top of your ignorance and called it a day.

That's why i can say with a lot of certainty that you will lose our duels.

Not because your experience or your motor skills.

But because you underestimate people and allow your emotions to talk for you.

You will lose because emotions always lose. You will make yourself lose.

This above is irrelevant to me. You're just another overemotional guy with lack of empathy and consequent social deficiencies.

I feel for you, but to help you i need you to want to get the help.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As for you, you should be happy you never got to duel me when I was actively into it, your whole PVP world would have collapsed in less than an hour if that's what you value (dueling skill). Then there would be excuses 'sorc op, nb no tools blah blah' and we'd get nowhere, so just forget it. Now that's that, dueling discussion over. You got no chance 9 out of 10 fights, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

Since, unlike you i know what i'm talking about i do regret you fall as low as to expose yourself on the forums.

You already lost, without even starting a duel.

You've lost in the game of respect. And thus you will lose any actual duel in the game.

I am truly sorry about that.

Whatever dude, I didn't even read what you said. You're welcome to come see me any time you want. Now chill.

"Great players aren't arrogant. They respect each single one of their opponent. They got nothing to prove. They already proved it all."

Great players don't make a game changing addon to promote their vision. That's what you would call arrogance.

What addons do they do then?

Those that 'promote' somebody else's vision?

Why would you be making addons at all then?

thedude33 wrote: »

... and the more relevant question should be, how is this addon good for the game? How is taking away a primary attack from a pvp player good for the game?

Because, as DDuke even demonstrated to us, the addon does nothing to those 'primary attacks' at all in a fair environment.

Even more, as i demonstrated in Cyro environment snipe has huge hit chance even taking into account snipe's drawbacks and the presence of the addon.

I have no idea where some people get that 'taking away a primary attack' and am hugely curious to hear anything concrete on that subject.

Dorrino · October 2017

Riejael wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

... and the more relevant question should be, how is this addon good for the game? How is taking away a primary attack from a pvp player good for the game?

How the hell is that a player's responsibility? If that ire was directed at ZOS, I'd actually agree.

But its not. You expect everyone to design addons how YOU want them to. You expect everyone to use addons YOU approve of. How far does it go? Do you call people out for using cheap tactics in PVP? For zerging? Do you call people out for using OP builds/specs?

Get over yourself. You don't get to decide who gets to use what. You only get to decide what you get to use. If you choose not to use something and lose because of it, that's only yourself to blame.

Precisely.

LegendaryMage · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

As i told you 2 times already i'll indulge you with a duel if you publicly apologize after you lose.

'Friendly duel' sounds like a mockery after your attitude towards me in each your post.

My attitude is that you're a crutch player, you'll get no apologies there since it's proven by none other but yourself with your crutch addon.

As I told you before, you will get an apology from me when YOU sanction the nonsense functions in your add-on, go talk to ZOS and explain why it's bad for the game so that the rest of the copies can be neutralized effectively, and then on top of that - apologize to all the players that your addon has been affecting negatively over the course of whenever you released it publicly, up until now. Then you'll get your apology and no sooner.

Now, as for you killing me in a duel, I don't see why I should be apologizing for that? We've determined what the real problem is, this is just your ego talking now. Maybe you should apologize after dying for being arrogant and egoistic and claiming things in advance? That sounds more like it.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Someone made another thread in the form of a poll asking if people considered this add-on to be cheating.

The poll was closed by the censorship team (claiming that the discussion was redundant to this one). Polls however are not redundant because they add a different type of information and are a measure of public opinion, whether you agree or not.

So i have copied the latest results of that poll and pasted it here so that it can be further discussed.

EDIT: Although the thread is closed, you can still vote on the poll. There have been 4 more votes since I posted this!!!

I don't necessarily agree that this issue simple enough to be put on a binary "cheating vs not-cheating" spectrum, but it is interesting to see public opinion so against this add-on. I have posted my full thoughts on this add-on here but the basic premise is this:
If someone is doing something in game that is inconsistent with ZOS's vision for the game, then it's up to ZOS to either punish that behavior or correct it via patch, fix, API lockdown, etc.

In this case, it seems that ZOS's vision for the game includes the ability to attack from stealth without being detected. This add-on completely counters attacks from stealth, ergo, it is antithetical to ZOS's ostensible design philosophy.

So by allowing this add-on and not disabling it, and NOT declaring it cheating, ZOS is tacitly approving something that is inconsistent with their own perceived design philosophy.

This causes ZOS to look foolish, not in control of their own game, and lacking a self-consistent vision of combat design.

I cant believe they closed that poll down or commented on this subject. Seems to be they will ignore any subject and hope it goes away or people simply leave the game. That is a reason why i stopped supporting them monetarily.

Time for another selfless act from someone to make ZoS wake up like we had with Cyrodill infinite meteors.

Although that was a serious moment that was occurring in ESO’s timeline, I found that particular saga the most entertaining (besides the Banker Duplication Saga). Lol. It tickled me so much seeing this 1 person floating around Cyrodiil, and just dropping Meteor after Meteor on 1 person to kill them. Dude took like 15 meteors to the face, before his character just turned to ash and laid there obliterated. Lmao.

ZOS, please do something about this situation before things get worse than they already are. Granted that I play strictly on console nowadays, I feel for my PC brothers and sisters getting robbed of kills due to an add-on. That’s hella cheesy and not the ESO we’ve all come to love collectively.

Shardan4968 · October 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

Another day goes by without any input from ZoS so this topic goes nowhere other than being shutdown hoping players forget/quit over it:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I'm afraid that ZOS didn't even consider telling us about their stance. They are just waiting for opportunity to call this discussion not constructive and lock it for good. It's really bad when you look at them as a company, which can't even communicate with customers. Seriously, could @JonnytheKing tell us why ZOS deleted his newest thread? If it was some sort of censorship, then I'm afraid even more.

DDuke · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

I won't discuss how bad your opponents were. It's relevant to 1v1 bow viability, but is irrelevant to the discussion about the addon.

Wow... you just can't accept when you're wrong, can you? Gotta go the extra mile and insult the people in the video, what a class act.

You want to know why I blurred the names of the opponents on the video? Because I knew you'd throw abuse at people you don't know rather than accept that you were wrong. So predictable.

Dorrino wrote: »

You didn't snipe from stealth, therefore your snipes channels were perfectly visible to your opponents. Therefore my addon would've been irrelevant to the result.

Nothing about the duels can be improved by using the addon.

Define perfectly visible. Even from my own point of view it isn't easy to spot the snipe animation when there's no big cast timer icon on screen when it happens. Now imagine being the opponent, far away & having to focus on a lot of other things as well than just opponents skill animations.

Usually this leaves you reacting to the audio/visual cue of the projectile, not the cast animation. You put too much emphasis on the whole stealth aspect.

Basicly what I'm saying is:
A good reaction time is required when your addon isn't present.
A good reaction time isn't required when it is.

Also, just because you didn't see a cloak combo in this video doesn't mean they don't happen.

I just dueled a very good stamblade friend from EU & since he played well around the traps and snipes, pretty much the only way to kill him was a cloak->(another to throw him off)cloak->snipe surprise.

Dorrino wrote: »

You're not getting xv1'ed in duels. You're not getting ganked in duels.

Thank you for that acute observation. Any other words of wisdom?

Dorrino wrote: »

Unlike some people who imagined that the addon helps everywhere i've always been saying that it's not about 1v1 at all. It's about higher awareness in Cyro environment.

You video perfectly demonstrated that the addon doesn't affect snipe effectiveness in 1v1.

Really... how about you enable it for duels (I'm not good enough with LUA to manually enable it from the settings) & we'll see how they look afterwards when playing a bow build?

The only thing my video demonstrates is that next patch bow builds would be perfectly viable for 1v1 & 1vX if your addon didn't exist.

Ackwalan · October 2017

KingMagaw wrote: »

Another day goes by without any input from ZoS so this topic goes nowhere other than being shutdown hoping players forget/quit over it:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Their response was to delete some posts.

geonsocal · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

howdy @Dorrino ...getting past the whole should it exist or shouldn't it - which is basically a mute point until our dungeon master, zos makes a more definitive statement or action...

although i do take great joy in trolling from time to time here on the forums - the truth is - i don't want anyone judging me or picking apart my every word or action...not so sure my self esteem would survive

i would imagine you have a pretty extensive background in coding...

i'm super curious as to exactly how difficult and time consuming is it to be able to create a program of this nature...

i'm not really all that familiar with the different add on stuff...to be honest i just recently became aware of the "creation club" stuff...i'm old, lazy and not all that tech savy

It's not hard if you got a coding background.

ESOUI.com hosts addon-authors community. Ui devs help from time to time with both clarifications about how API works and implementing some new features from the community wish-list.

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

geonsocal wrote: »

is this sort of thing the way of the future - wherein individual folks with the knowledge and will can have the opportunity to customize a game to their own vision?

Not in mmo department, because it's a heavily regulated environment.

But otherwise there's indeed a trend and a demand for 'customize your world' type of game design approach.

'Theme-park' mmos are not suited for that at all.

This hysteria about UI customization is quite unique to eso. Other games either have a valid communication channel with devs about UI additions (GW2) and they are getting case-by-case approvals or passed the phase of rejection of UI addons many years ago (WoW). Or don't allow for any UI customization of this sort (lotro, rift and many others).

We wouldn't have this reaction in ESO if devs communicated about this issue. Thus uniqueness.

muchas gracias senor

holy cow - i had no clue all this stuff was going on: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/cat96.html

needless to say i'm a console plebe...i spend all day at work on a computer - i'm loathe to turn one on once i get home...

when it comes to add-ons i usually just think of skyshards, lore books, merchant stuff and so on...

wow, i had no idea about the kind of stuff that is available for pvp players...

personally, i'm more of a visual type person...i enjoy a very clean UI screen...i was down to just a compass and health bars - but, with 10 different characters i kept fumbling their abilities, so had to add back in the ability bar...

needless to say - i'm not exactly a top tier competitive pvp type person

KingMagaw · October 2017

Ackwalan wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

Another day goes by without any input from ZoS so this topic goes nowhere other than being shutdown hoping players forget/quit over it:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Their response was to delete some posts.

Why ruin a great track record they have now! It makes no sense to me ZOS can move in delete some posts, ignore the names being tagged in posts and just another day in the office.

SirAndy · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

Erhm, no. The devs have been meeting on a regular basis with the Council of Nirn ever since beta.

Nebthet78 · October 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

Erhm, no. The devs have been meeting on a regular basis with the Council of Nirn ever since beta.

When's the last time they met with them? Over a year ago? or More?

SirAndy · October 2017

Nebthet78 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

Erhm, no. The devs have been meeting on a regular basis with the Council of Nirn ever since beta.

When's the last time they met with them? Over a year ago? or More?

I'll have to check when i get home but i'm pretty sure it was more recent than that ...

Dorrino · October 2017

LegendaryMage wrote: »

My attitude is that you're a crutch player, you'll get no apologies there since it's proven by none other but yourself with your crutch addon.

Since the addon has nothing to do with crutches your understanding is wrong and your attitude is based on a wrong understanding.

Thus you educate yourself and apologize not for being wrong, but for persisting in your ignorance and verbally attacking other people.

Which part of 'insulting other people is a big no-no' is not clear to you?

Your ignorance and/or stupidity can't justify insults at all.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

As I told you before, you will get an apology from me when YOU sanction the nonsense functions in your add-on

Why would i sanction awesome functions that my addon has?

Would you do that to your addon if some ignorant and rude person on the forums asked you to do so?

LegendaryMage wrote: »

, go talk to ZOS and explain why it's bad for the game so that the rest of the copies can be neutralized effectively

Multiple times i explained why it's great for the game. It's regretful that zos haven't yet added that to the base ui, especially on the console.

I don't understand how you can call awesome stuff to be bad for the game. But i'm used to explaining again and again and again.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

, and then on top of that - apologize to all the players that your addon has been affecting negatively over the course of whenever you released it publicly, up until now. Then you'll get your apology and no sooner.

I expressed my regret that some people get frustrated about the addon many times.

I try to educate them to reduce their frustration.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Now, as for you killing me in a duel, I don't see why I should be apologizing for that? We've determined what the real problem is, this is just your ego talking now. Maybe you should apologize after dying for being arrogant and egoistic and claiming things in advance? That sounds more like it.

*patiently* nobody apologizes for losing a duel. You're supposed to apologize for assuming my pvp inferiority either because you decide to be a good boy and a decent human being or after you're been empirically proven wrong by losing in the duel.

I'd prefer the first option, but for clarity of communication i can do the second one.

DDuke wrote: »

Wow... you just can't accept when you're wrong, can you?

Am i supposed to do mind reading?

You think you proved me wrong. That's in your mind.

Your post has no proofs whatsoever.

On the contrary your video demonstrate your own point to be wrong.

You point was 'if opponent sees my snipe charge up - i can't hit him'.

You showed that your opponent sees your snipe charge up and you hit most if not all your snipes.

What other proof do you need?

DDuke wrote: »

Gotta go the extra mile and insult the people in the video, what a class act.

a. I deliberately didn't do that.
b. Since when observing low-to-average pvp skills and expressing your observation is insulting those people?

Just in case i apologize to them if something in what i said was insulting.

I hope we all can agree that their pvp skill level is not stellar.

DDuke wrote: »

You want to know why I blurred the names of the opponents on the video? Because I knew you'd throw abuse at people you don't know rather than accept that you were wrong. So predictable.

Yet again, i'm terribly sorry if i offended those people in any shape or form.

DDuke wrote: »

Define perfectly visible. Even from my own point of view it isn't easy to spot the snipe animation when there's no big cast timer icon on screen when it happens.

You 'tab-target' the person. You will always see his white outline. Snipe has a very specific animation that is almost impossible to mistake for something else.

What do i miss here? You can't immediately recognize the snipe from outline animation?

DDuke wrote: »

Now imagine being the opponent, far away & having to focus on a lot of other things as well than just opponents skill animations.

Hm. I don't understand this part. I watch my opponent in duels. Other thing take <10% of my attention.

DDuke wrote: »

Usually this leaves you reacting to the audio/visual cue of the projectile, not the cast animation. You put too much emphasis on the whole stealth aspect.

hm, so THAT'S WHY you didn't like the addon?

Because you don't recognize snipe animation?

I thought it was obvious that you see the animation unless in xv1 or he is stealthed. Thus the addon.

DDuke wrote: »

Also, just because you didn't see a cloak combo in this video doesn't mean they don't happen.

Cloak ''combo' is irrelevant since you know what's going on when he cloaks. You don't need to watch the animation at all.

DDuke wrote: »

Thank you for that acute observation. Any other words of wisdom?

The word of wisdom was you don't benefit from the addon in this environment.

DDuke wrote: »

The only thing my video demonstrates is that next patch bow builds would be perfectly viable for 1v1 & 1vX if your addon didn't exist.

Since you have problems with snipe animation and thus only react to the projectile, i see your point now.

Actually if that is the culprit i support your claim to remove that from API (if zos won't make snipe animation more noticeable). I didn't realize people might have that problem.

Dorrino · October 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This is the only place where we have a players and devs working together as far as ESO is concerned.

Erhm, no. The devs have been meeting on a regular basis with the Council of Nirn ever since beta.

Can we get any public information about it? Especially recent.

Recaps and stuff?

ESOUI communication is purely public.

SanTii.92 · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.

What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.

Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).

If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.

As promised:
https://youtu.be/LtD7d7kopLY

This is how you 1v1 with Bow/Bow - took me ages to find signs of life on PTS, so I couldn't get more than a couple duels in, but the build works vs everything if played right and no one is cheating with addons.

I'm still a novice to the build as well (playtime in hours isn't even in double digits yet), so there's a loooot of untapped potential still that's not shown on the video.

But yes, I hope we can throw this "bow sucks anyway so it doesn't matter if we ruin it with an addon" derpy argument to the trash bin where it belongs and then incinerate it for good measure.

Ironically I just dueled a guy 10 mins. ago that was using a double bow setup and even though he died in the end, he was very elusive and his damage was pretty decent too. Much respect for originality.

It's a lot of fun to play too and has a high skill cap/steep learning curve - would be a shame if these builds remained unviable because of some bloody addon telling people when to dodge

PvP desperately needs that fresh breath of air in form of new builds & playstyles.

Build's pretty awesome, but admittedly the addon has little impact on the outcome of the fight, other than to prvent an stealth opening. Any one with half decent awereness should be able to tell when to dodge those snipes, if possible, anyways.

mongoLC · October 2017

Miat,

You are getting a lot of salt just add in auto responses to the addon queues. Like an interface if skill A is detect do action B. That will really get zos to acknowledge things are wrong

and then if they fix all of that you could focus on a new addon to upset people in cyro. Like "Auto Bagger" where if it sees someone dead in the field of battle it puts a marker over them and when the addon detects that you are over the marked persons head asks you to press some key to start the tea bagging process any key pressed will stop the bagging and if the person releases the bags also stop! Great coding thou much respect for what you have done.

ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHINGInterview With Miat Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A