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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A
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Enslaved✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shardan4968 wrote: »Looks like you don't even read comments written by people who have different opinion.
Why should I when they make ad hominem attacks against those whom they disagree with?
Calling someone a cheater is an ad hominem attack. An insult, and serves what purpose? Seriously tell me what purpose does it serve?
Do you all really believe that calling a user of the addon a cheater will make them go, "OMG I've been such a jerk, I must repent and delete this immediately!"
You all really think that?
All you all have done is informed people of this addon and I've personally known at least 2 people who have downloaded it because of this thread. Now more people are going to 'cheat' as you call it. More people will detect your steath. More people will auto roll dodge out of your attacks. More people will split-second block your stuff.
Is that what you all wanted. Because that's what you've got.
What's ironic is you say I ignore those people who have a different opinion and don't read their comments. I want you to do something @Shardan4968 I want you to state your opinion of the addon. Now I want you to read back to some of my previous posts and find out what -my- opinion is.
Post both. Think of it as a little assignment. I think once you've got both side by side you will cancel the reply. The irony will be VERY apparent. If you don't wish to click back. Just post your opinion as a reply to this. I'll do the leg work for you and respond back with mine quoted alongside yours.
So, you came here to defend cheaters, addon that promote cheating and its creator that even have the nerve to lecture us after releasing crap like that. And you are offended by ppl reactions? Cut the crap. This is a forum about a game. And you promote cheating as something good. [Snip].
[Edited to remove flaming]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on October 19, 2017 2:27AM7 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDukeYour addon (and private ones with the same function) makes any build utilizing a cast time ability useless by providing 1s+ heads up before the main burst of those builds is even in the air.
This has been shown to be false multiple times.
I didn't get any objections to my rebuttals.If a build can't land its main burst (e.g. Dark Flare, Snipe, Frag etc), it can't win.
None of the builds besides stealth gank ones have this problem. Magplar doesn't rely on Dark Flare landing, mag sorc doesn't rely on frags landing, there's no 1v1 builds with snipe as their main burst, thus nobody relies on it to land to win.
Yeah... except that magplar who runs a Flare build, or sorc who runs Crystal Blast (no, this isn't a thing atm but ZOS is trying to make it be), or that person running a bow build.Thus your addon presents two options for people who'd like to utilize these cast time abilities:- Change the build and playstyle, play one of the toxic meta builds & contribute to the downfall of this game.
- Quit the game.
3. Accept the intended role of those skills and use them where they are applicable.
So option 2 you mean?
By same logic I could run around Cyrodiil as a naked pugilist and use my fists where applicable and chances are I'd do better than with a bow build vs people using your addon.
That is an acute and insightful observation.Your addon effectively removes the "reaction time/reflex" skill element from the game when playing these builds, while not doing the same for builds utilizing instant cast abilities (or heavy attacks from stealth, which are the deadliest form of ganking).
The notifications allows for the reaction. I don't see how it can remove something its strongly promotes. This point needs clarification.
The notifications don't just "allow" for a reaction, they guarantee it. When there's a chance of failure based on your reaction speed, skill becomes a factor.
When you remove the chance of failure (i.e. giving everyone 1s+ time to react by showing the cast timer), skill is no longer a factor.
Clarified?I get that you think "everyone should have a chance to react" (which they've always had vs ranged abilities), but this isn't really true for the meta builds out there is it?
They almost always had. Lag and game glitches introduce a whole lot of situations when the cues are not even played.Most builds thrive on having a burst that can take out your opponent before he can react
I fully disagree with this.
None of the builds besides stealth gank ones does that.
Any other builds provide a vast number of options to react to their burst.
Give me any example so i could see what do you refer to.
Any instant cast ultimate with a CC element used when opponent isn't blocking, followed by a high damaging ability.
Any burst combo involving undodgeable/unblockable CC to prevent opponent from reacting.
Just an example from my own melee build would be Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap(Selene).
Opponents can anticipate the burst if they're aware of the combo, but they can't really react after it happens.
Latest victim of many "nerf" threads is the stam Warden Shalks->Stampede/Crit Rush+DBOS->Rev Slice one - there's no reacting after that happens because you're dead.
Then there's mag DKs with Fossilize+Leap/Meteor, sorcs with a well timed Curse, Wrath & Streak/Scamp stun+Frag proc etc etc., because if your opponent reacts your opponent is back at full health, permablocking and/or spamming shields.
You know this, I know this.
That's one of the main reasons why duels don't work in this game. The only way to win a duel, is for the opponent to fail to anticipate the burst.
Exactly (unless you play medium armor & get hit by enough undodgeable bs).
Consider for a moment how your addon might affect opponents' chances of anticipating that burst when they get a 1s+ heads up before it's even in the air.It does nothing but benefit the toxic meta builds most of us have grown tired of and drives more people into those few viable playstyles.
Again, i don't agree that SUDDEN (TM) burst from stealth is a solution to the meta. On the contrary it just leads to even higher imbalance of the combat and thus higher frustrations of the participants. Because people will just build in such a way to ignore that sudden burst. And that's exactly why heavy meta became widespread as the response to one shot ganking. This type of ganking if not created the meta, but at least hugely sped up its adoption.
Heavy armor became meta because heavy armor deals more damage (Fury/Legion), survives pressure from undodgeable bs and yes, has better chances at living vs burst (as it should).
Light armor is still popular though, especially amongst sorcs.This is my experience as well - it is practically impossible to lose to a bow build, Dark Flare magplar or anyone using cast time abilities when using this addon. It also shows the exact moment when Warden birds land allowing you to time blocks perfectly, shows incoming projectiles arriving from out of camera angle and so many other things that go against how the game was designed...
The game was designed to make all of them visible. That's how it was designed and that's how it works. Claming otherwise has to have a rational ground. I still want to hear it.
Game was designed to have the actual skill animations visible and audible. Not the cast bar, especially for stealthed players.
Don't believe me? Go play on console and tell me what you see.No, Cyrodiil isn't a "level playing field" unless you manage to find an actual 1v1 fight (a rarity). Battlegrounds & duels on the other hand are.
Even if you happen to find 1v1 in cyro it is still not an example of 'level playing field', because his build might not be suitable for duels.
Neither is mine, I play builds that work everywhere, not just duels. I don't run sneak around Cyrodiil swapping my skills around, ready to perfectly 1v1 anyone lolThe only environment you can try to apply the 'level playing field' mantra - are duels. And that's why the addon is disabled there.
Yes, your addon. Not the other ones out there. Also, someone well-versed in LUA can just open the addon folder and manually enable them.
Also, lets not forget BGs.Does it matter if someone deals that 90% of your health from stealth, or if that happens point blank outside of stealth?
This is crucial. If the attacker is visible you can always prevent his burst. Even in the meta when a lot of hard hitting stuff go through dodge. Awareness (in this case visibility) makes the world of difference and turns an unskillful cheesy attack to a fair fight (within the game's combat system). Yep, just that.
Not always, as pointed out above.
Won't bother repeating.
No, they are not. Why do you think people keep bringing up ranged attacks?
Very few (if any) builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing as their main DPS ability, where as almost every ranged projectile is affected by your addon (travel/cast times).Those are part of the base game and thus clearly intended to be in by developers.
Exactly like my addon (and all other addons) that can use nothing, but the game's API that is fully intended to exist in its current form by the developers. Developers made that API not for custom addons specifically. They made it for themselves to be able to make UI with it. The addon use precisely what developers use (with some limitations, mostly related to automated actions).
Highlighted is strictly not true, as pointed multiple times in this thread and others.
See what Chip responded to you in the esoui thread.
What it sounds like is that they forgot/didnt know how to add proper limitations to prevent abuse of the API.
Not everything that is in the game (or available to the public in API) is in intentionally.
See: all exploits, bugs, flaws etc.If you consider base ui intended because devs provided it to the players you have to consider the whole API intended as well. For the same reasons. Because both things are provided by the same developers. If you doubt their intentions regarding the API you have to doubt their intentions regarding base UI as well. Exactly same team of people.
No, I don't consider a basic UI intended simply because devs have provided one for us - I consider it intended because MMOs tend to have a basic UI. Common sense.
You know what MMOs dont tend to have? Visible cast bars for unseen opponents.They also follow tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs - your addon does not.
On the contrary my addon strictly follows (and in some parts in based on) 'tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs' that supported public API customization of the UI.
In WoW for many years we had addons that not just showed buffs and cast bars for people that attacked you, they showed same things for literally anybody around the players. With convenient notifications about key events like 'a guy somewhere nearby used a big cooldown'. My addon in its first iteration was close to that 'tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs'. Unfortunately now the only things that are left are attacks against the player himself.
Different game, different combat system. People would be screaming bloody murder if rogue stealth openers had cast timers and Gladius notified people about them.
WoW also doesn't have any action combat elements that would allow you to react to every cast.
Not that I approve of that addon either, sounds like similar bs but on a lesser scale due to the game having a different combat system.But that's besides the point, the fact that something hasn't been viable for a couple of years as a main weapon doesn't mean it should remain so because of a 3rd party addon.
It remains so because ZOS designs the game this way. Main hand bow 1v1 doesn't work with or without my addon.There are many people who are anxious to play bow again competitively, and yes it'll be possible next patch - atleast on consoles where your addon doesn't exist.
This will not be possible, until snipe get drastic changes. Asylum bow doesn't make snipe effective, because it changes nothing about its mechanics.I might even release a build video for the Bow/Bow setup before the PTS is over.
Release a duel, but before try to argument how would a bow work in 1v1. Cloak and snipe? The target blocks/dodges until you reappear. Your move?
Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.
What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.
Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).Edited by DDuke on October 18, 2017 9:30AM6 -
Witar✭✭✭✭✭Miat's should be outlawed. Extremely hard to connect ranged attacks, constant 'dodge' 'dodge' 'dodge' nowadays.
I do understand that this toxic playstyle will not go away but at least it should not be that easy available to everyone.
Couple of people using it is okish. As a reward for being smart enough to code it on their own.Edited by Witar on October 18, 2017 9:09AMIt cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt,
It lies behind stars and under hills,
And empty holes it fills,
It comes first and follows after,
Ends life, kills laughter.4 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get it. I don't feel at a disadvantage at all even though I don't use the addon.
It really just paints a picture of half the people in this thread being either snipetards sitting in stealth all day or mag sorcs who get triggered when someone dodge rolls their totally-not-predictable frags7 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭This is built into the game with "Combat Cues". Addon simply uses the same API. If you want to blame, blame the developers.4 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »This is built into the game with "Combat Cues". Addon simply uses the same API. If you want to blame, blame the developers.
Again, you have to actually see/hear the combat cues in order to react to them. If a player out of your line of sight (Behind you, in the middle of a group players, to your right/left, directly in front of you but you miss the animation or aren't focused on that player), but not invisible, uses snipe, other than hearing the sound, you should have zero indication that you are being attacked. How is this hard to understand? If you don't see/hear the animation/effect tough luck. You shouldn't get to magically dodge something you didn't/shouldn't even know is incoming.
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Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone made another thread in the form of a poll asking if people considered this add-on to be cheating.
The poll was closed by the censorship team (claiming that the discussion was redundant to this one). Polls however are not redundant because they add a different type of information and are a measure of public opinion, whether you agree or not.
So i have copied the latest results of that poll and pasted it here so that it can be further discussed.
EDIT: Although the thread is closed, you can still vote on the poll. There have been 4 more votes since I posted this!!!
I don't necessarily agree that this issue simple enough to be put on a binary "cheating vs not-cheating" spectrum, but it is interesting to see public opinion so against this add-on. I have posted my full thoughts on this add-on here but the basic premise is this:- If someone is doing something in game that is inconsistent with ZOS's vision for the game, then it's up to ZOS to either punish that behavior or correct it via patch, fix, API lockdown, etc.
- In this case, it seems that ZOS's vision for the game includes the ability to attack from stealth without being detected. This add-on completely counters attacks from stealth, ergo, it is antithetical to ZOS's ostensible design philosophy.
- So by allowing this add-on and not disabling it, and NOT declaring it cheating, ZOS is tacitly approving something that is inconsistent with their own perceived design philosophy.
- This causes ZOS to look foolish, not in control of their own game, and lacking a self-consistent vision of combat design.
Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on October 18, 2017 7:52PM8 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »This is built into the game with "Combat Cues". Addon simply uses the same API. If you want to blame, blame the developers.
Again, you have to actually see/hear the combat cues in order to react to them. If a player out of your line of sight (Behind you, in the middle of a group players, to your right/left, directly in front of you but you miss the animation or aren't focused on that player), but not invisible, uses snipe, other than hearing the sound, you should have zero indication that you are being attacked. How is this hard to understand? If you don't see/hear the animation/effect tough luck. You shouldn't get to magically dodge something you didn't/shouldn't even know is incoming.
Its not dependant on the animations or sounds. It depends on LOS. "Combat Cues" checks for LOS, addon doesn't.Edited by techprince on October 18, 2017 4:57PM0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fairness is man’s ability to rise above his prejudices.
competition may not necessarily develop character - it most definitely reveals it though...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place2 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not making judgement on the add-on as I believe it's up to zos to do something about this (Also noting they have Ahmad plenty of time to do so.). I hope everyone who is complaining about the add-on don't use combat cues or raid notifier, which have been in the game much longer with little contoversy. These add-ons that tell people when to block should all be put in the same boat and dealt with by zos depending on their vision for the game.PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD0 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not making judgement on the add-on as I believe it's up to zos to do something about this (Also noting they have Ahmad plenty of time to do so.). I hope everyone who is complaining about the add-on don't use combat cues or raid notifier, which have been in the game much longer with little contoversy. These add-ons that tell people when to block should all be put in the same boat and dealt with by zos depending on their vision for the game.
I am coming to believe that ZOS's "vision" for the game is to not be actively involved in the game in any way unless their bottom line is affected.Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on October 18, 2017 5:37PM7 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Not making judgement on the add-on as I believe it's up to zos to do something about this (Also noting they have Ahmad plenty of time to do so.). I hope everyone who is complaining about the add-on don't use combat cues or raid notifier, which have been in the game much longer with little contoversy. These add-ons that tell people when to block should all be put in the same boat and dealt with by zos depending on their vision for the game.
I am coming to believe that ZOS's "vision" for the game is to not actively be involved in the game unless their bottom line is affected.
And since this is a PvP issue mostly, we won't see much movement on it. So these types of add-ons are here to stay.Edited by TBois on October 18, 2017 5:28PMPC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh dear... even the orange man has a better approval rating
Lol best comment.
But I agree, I think ZoS hasn't had time to fix the API yet. Based on that thread you posted it sounds like Miat's add-on opened a wormhole that impacted alot more add ons than anticipated. And the potential pve impact has them taking more time than initially mentioned.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Not making judgement on the add-on as I believe it's up to zos to do something about this (Also noting they have Ahmad plenty of time to do so.). I hope everyone who is complaining about the add-on don't use combat cues or raid notifier, which have been in the game much longer with little contoversy. These add-ons that tell people when to block should all be put in the same boat and dealt with by zos depending on their vision for the game.
I am coming to believe that ZOS's "vision" for the game is to not be actively involved in the game in any way unless their bottom line is affected.
If you are coming to believe that just now then you are exactly the kind of Customer ZOS and other MMO companies kill for.
Its always been about the bottom line.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank christ ps4 does not have addons. Sounds like a cheat engine to me.
Progressions should be-
"Oh no someone ganked me oh no", harden up cupcake and get some pots of 'getgood', learn from your failures and get back in there.
Not-
"Oh no someone ganked me", download addon, problem solved?
I suspect most people in this thread who defend the AddOn fall in the latter category.
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Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Not making judgement on the add-on as I believe it's up to zos to do something about this (Also noting they have Ahmad plenty of time to do so.). I hope everyone who is complaining about the add-on don't use combat cues or raid notifier, which have been in the game much longer with little contoversy. These add-ons that tell people when to block should all be put in the same boat and dealt with by zos depending on their vision for the game.
I am coming to believe that ZOS's "vision" for the game is to not be actively involved in the game in any way unless their bottom line is affected.
If you are coming to believe that just now then you are exactly the kind of Customer ZOS and other MMO companies kill for.
Its always been about the bottom line.
I know a lot of good companies that produce amazing quality products and make a killing. This is one of the few that insists on producing such a mediocre product. And we let them get away with it.5 -
Hixtory✭✭✭✭I don't do much of pvp these days, but the only butt hurt ones are the people sitting for long time waiting for someone to die with 2 shots. Or people who's build iss marksman and hawk eye and just spam snipe behind the zerg fights. That's more cancer than anything else ffs.
People hated the procs, they had a way to fight back and they hate it. now stealth is an important part of the game for NB, but still lots of people play and are emperor in this class, having or not the addon.
I mean come on, in my NB I can still kill if I want to, and thats pretty much the only class affected. Templars who opened with flare, jabs and radiant should go and learn to play now.
If the addon is making you bad in pvp, hey flash news "you already sucked"
So grow a par and play, this is a game not your life1 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the point being (at least from my own perspective) - zos is allowing 3rd party add-ons to significantly affect the gameplay of its player base...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place1 -
JonnytheKing✭✭✭✭✭im so sad that the post has turned in to this , i will be makeing a response video , poeple have missed a out of stuff.
TWITCH jtk__gaming
GM of Elder-Skills DC PVP Guild NA
Main Toons
MagSorc
MagTemp0 -
JonnytheKing✭✭✭✭✭techprince wrote: »This is built into the game with "Combat Cues". Addon simply uses the same API. If you want to blame, blame the developers.
thank you for having brains
TWITCH jtk__gaming
GM of Elder-Skills DC PVP Guild NA
Main Toons
MagSorc
MagTemp0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭About 60 hours ago I post this comment in the first page of this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4570057/#Comment_4570057
The jist of it is I posted a link to the addon in question and an intention of using it. It was a test to see about getting a message from ZOS. If it was something they wished us to refrain from using. I'd not be able to post this about now.
It does not take long to see a post edited or removed by ZOS's forum mods. The evidence I present of such is the top comment on this page (13) made by a poster responding to me in a colorful way. Now I didn't report this user, I have actually no idea what he really said. The edit was done rather early in the morning. But done within 5hrs of him posting. Since that was merely an ad hominem attack I will not respond to him directly.
The other evidence is the poll thread. That I did see, and it was locked rather quickly. For being 'redundant'. Odd that a thread being unfavorable to that side of the discussion would be locked so quickly. While this one which has several links providing access to the addon (mostly from yours truly) has remained open. Maybe just a coincidence.
Many have expressed wanting an official message from ZOS about the use of the addon. Why its allowed, why no action is being taken, and for the most part... why not say anything? I agree. So I forced the issue. I did what many aren't willing to do. I put my forum privileges on the line to see if that would cause an action. The old saying goes, actions speak louder than words. If they were to edit out my links, warn, suspend, or ban me from the forums, then it would put the issue to rest. It would mean the addon is not legit.
They have done nothing of the sort. They have not actioned me and have remained silent. They have taken action against other users for 'similar' things in the last week. Merely showing a cheat being used and not even how to get or use it have been edited. Threads deemed redundant have been locked. Posters in the thread who have stepped out of line, censured (and censored).
So where does that leave us? The CoC/EULA state that no third party cheats, hacks, programs, and so forth that give a player an edge shall be used. To any Layman the addon would appear to fit that criteria. I assure you, and I doubt any of you will object to this fact, that if you used any other form of cheat or hack outside the addon API, and posted that you were, that swift action would be taken. If you wish to dispute this fact, if you think that ZOS lets cheaters do as they will. Feel free to post a link to such a thing and see if they take action. I mean I did that with the addon in question, so you should be safe if you honestly believe that. We'll move past this since we all know what the outcome of that would be.
So that begs the question. If they'll edit/action your post for a cheat, but not the addon. Does that make it a cheat? Well many of you think it does. Or you say you believe it does. No offense, but players think ganking is cheating. Players think AC is cheating. Players think using certain set combinations is cheating. Players think using certain hardware peripherals is cheating (not going to lie, but my 15 button mouse feels like it sometimes). Everyone has their own opinion in how the game should be played.
However the only opinion that matters. Is that of the developer and publisher of the game. I have many things I'd like to see changed (including this addon ironically). But to go so far as calling someone a cheater over it? No I have much better manners, discipline, and sense to do that. And you all should too. And as I said, our opinions don't matter, compared to ZOS's, and if you read the forum CoC, calling people names and making insults, isn't really allowed. I'd recommend not doing that from now on.
So what about sharpened maces and double mundus being an exploit and not actioned? I've seen this posted over and over in an almost circular logic sense. Since my original point has been upheld, I'll address this. Both things sound like they could happen by accident. If for some reason a green War Maidens Destruction Staff in the next patch had 3103 dmg on it and upgrading to blue reverted it back to normal dmg so keeping it green was a way to get an extra 2000 dmg out of it. Do you think they would ban for that?
So we're gonna ban everyone using such a weapon? All the poor newbies who don't know the max dmg of weapons are getting kicked to the curb because they found a nice staff off some random mob or event. What about just those using them in Cyrodil or dungeons? Well they can run those too at level 10-15.
Its in the game, if you find it you use it. No, nobody should be banned for that.
Now here is where the logic of that breaks down. They're trying to get me to say, "yeah, go for it, use it.. and damn ZOS if they ever change it." The argument's premise is directed at me rather than the addon itself. We normally call that a strawman. Which I did call it out for what it is.
Its irrelevant though because I do believe in fixing glitches as soon as you find them. I believe logic errors such as erroneous stats should be fixed. So I have no idea what else those arguments intend to prove. Other than trying to imply a glitch is the same as installing an addon.
The difference obviously is intent. None of you are going to be ok with banning all innocent noobs that accidentally make a glitch work. And if you are.. you've got a weird opinion. I'll leave it at that. But installing an addon is a clear cut dried bit of evidence showing intent.
So as you can see.. that argument starts to fall apart.
So I don't believe the addon should work the way it does, isn't that proof that its cheating? Of course not. My opinion isn't the end and be all of ESO. But in either case, I believe the upcoming change to Wrath is fine. But I don't believe all Heavy Armor users are cheaters (though some of you probably do).
Which leads to the final point. Opinions being leveled at others as if they were some hard facts.
"I think the addon is cheating, so you're a cheater if you use it."
Lets look into the purpose of this. Whether a player believes a statement like that or not when they make it doesn't matter. In both cases they are seeking to control their opponents. "I don't want them to use that, so I will insult them if they do."
I've been playing in competitive multiplayer games since the mid 90s. In over twenty years I have seen this time and time again. Players will have legit options available to them (maybe options that will be changed in the future by the devs in a patch). But other players don't wish them to use it.
I gave the example of MechWarrior and legging mechs. Where players would call you dishonorable, refuse league matches with you if they knew you would do it, call it cheating and so forth. Then they turn around and exploit the fact that players didn't shoot for the legs and would save armor on weapons and heatsinks by distributing armor off the legs.
The same intent is being used here. Beliefs are irrelevant. They wish to exploit other players by calling them exploiters of the game they are playing. Its ironic and hypocritical of course. But that's what's going on here. If you read the various threads, players do this all the time. Whether its addons, builds, armor, skills, races even, or whatever. Everyone wants their opponent to play a certain way.
Here's my message to that.
Defiance. You do NOT get to dictate how I or anyone else plays. You do NOT get to decide which addons I want to us. You do NOT get the right to decide which is right or wrong. You can make polls over and over till your fingers fall off. You can call others cheaters until you are banned. You can cry and whine and complain until you are blue in the face. It changes NOTHING. If there's any fact that is true in this thread, it is this paragraph.2 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Someone made another thread in the form of a poll asking if people considered this add-on to be cheating.
The poll was closed by the censorship team (claiming that the discussion was redundant to this one). Polls however are not redundant because they add a different type of information and are a measure of public opinion, whether you agree or not.
So i have copied the latest results of that poll and pasted it here so that it can be further discussed.
EDIT: Although the thread is closed, you can still vote on the poll. There have been 4 more votes since I posted this!!!
I don't necessarily agree that this issue simple enough to be put on a binary "cheating vs not-cheating" spectrum, but it is interesting to see public opinion so against this add-on. I have posted my full thoughts on this add-on here but the basic premise is this:- If someone is doing something in game that is inconsistent with ZOS's vision for the game, then it's up to ZOS to either punish that behavior or correct it via patch, fix, API lockdown, etc.
- In this case, it seems that ZOS's vision for the game includes the ability to attack from stealth without being detected. This add-on completely counters attacks from stealth, ergo, it is antithetical to ZOS's ostensible design philosophy.
- So by allowing this add-on and not disabling it, and NOT declaring it cheating, ZOS is tacitly approving something that is inconsistent with their own perceived design philosophy.
- This causes ZOS to look foolish, not in control of their own game, and lacking a self-consistent vision of combat design.
I cant believe they closed that poll down or commented on this subject. Seems to be they will ignore any subject and hope it goes away or people simply leave the game. That is a reason why i stopped supporting them monetarily.
Time for another selfless act from someone to make ZoS wake up like we had with Cyrodill infinite meteors.4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭-snip-
Defiance. You do NOT get to dictate how I or anyone else plays. You do NOT get to decide which addons I want to us. You do NOT get the right to decide which is right or wrong. You can make polls over and over till your fingers fall off. You can call others cheaters until you are banned. You can cry and whine and complain until you are blue in the face. It changes NOTHING. If there's any fact that is true in this thread, it is this paragraph.
Did you just write that wall of text because you think people are trying to tell you how to play the game or what cheats/addons to use? Nobody is telling you you shouldn't do X or Y.
Do whatever the [snip] you want - when it comes to exploiting ZOS don't care, probably because they can't ban half their player base who are making use of them. Hell, even I use this 3rd party cheat plugin.
Ironically the main reason people have problems with it is exactly that it forces certain playstyles on you and makes other ones unviable. The addon decides how people play the game.
I really fail to see what you are trying to achieve with your little outburst.Edited by DDuke on October 18, 2017 7:35PM6 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really wish ZOS would give a concrete answer on this subject, maybe they are ok with addons providing advantages in a PvP scenario, maybe not. Maybe they are working on ways to prevent the API from granting access to certain information, maybe they don't care at all.
Communication isn't ZOS strong point, but a concrete definitive answer would be appreciated, so people can either just accept that ZOS is ok with 3rd party crutches affecting PvP gameplay or just quit PvP altogether.1 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JonnytheKing wrote: »im so sad that the post has turned in to this , i will be makeing a response video , poeple have missed a out of stuff.
not at all @JonnytheKing ...this has been an excellent thread jonny...both yourself and @Dorrino have done an excellent job of communicating your points of view in a clear and respectful manner...much appreciated
in regards to our forum community, and in particular the concept of fair play; and, the expectation different consumers have on a manufacturers product - there is going to be a wide variance of opinions and beliefs...along with some heated conversation...
by and large, most of us are grown folk - all the elucidation in the world ain't gonna change how we all feel about this subject...
it's good though that we get to express ourselves...maybe, just maybe - zos will address whatever concerns there are amongst a good portion of their player base...
if you were expecting to ride in on the back of a chariot receiving the adulation of all - yeah - that was never going to happen...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah... except that magplar who runs a Flare build, or sorc who runs Crystal Blast (no, this isn't a thing atm but ZOS is trying to make it be), or that person running a bow build.
And none of those is viable in 1v1 with or without the addon. None of them can force the target to take the hit and all of them are interruptible.So option 2 you mean?
By same logic I could run around Cyrodiil as a naked pugilist and use my fists where applicable and chances are I'd do better than with a bow build vs people using your addon.
Accept that ranged interruptible channels were never intended to be an effective all-around spammable. That there is a role they excel at, but in many other roles they are subpar due to design limitations embedded into them.The notifications don't just "allow" for a reaction, they guarantee it.
I strongly disagree here. It's always up to player to react and choose a proper reaction strategy.
If the logic goes as 'i perceive the attack - therefore i always avoid it' then most sport games wouldn't be possible, because they are strongly based on failing to react to a stimulus.When there's a chance of failure based on your reaction speed, skill becomes a factor.
When you remove the chance of failure (i.e. giving everyone 1s+ time to react by showing the cast timer), skill is no longer a factor.
Even if we talk about an isolated case of snipe, you don't react to snipe channel message, because 1.1 sec channel itself and 1-3 sec flight time. You know that within the next 4 sec you might get hit by snipe. You don't know if the attacker actually fires snipe and when will it land. You're just getting prepared to react to the actual snipe projectile in the next 4 sec.
The way you put it implies that having the notification provides you with a precise information about the impact, which is false.Any instant cast ultimate with a CC element used when opponent isn't blocking, followed by a high damaging ability.
If attacker is visible, then he needs to set it up. To turn his character properly, move to a proper location, cast some buffs. Seeing all that provides enough information to reliably predict the burst itself and pre-block, pre-dodge it, pre-shield it.
Not seeing it, makes the burst truly unpreventable and promotes unskillful play and/or the builds that don't need to anticipate the burst, i.e. low skill builds.
If the attacker is visible there exists a trade-off between you personal skill level and your tankiness. The higher you skill the less tanky you need to be because you'll manually prevent the burst on you. That's why invisible burst is detrimental to the game because no matter how skillful you are you will be forced into passive mitigation just to survive a cheesy attack.Any burst combo involving undodgeable/unblockable CC to prevent opponent from reacting.
Similarly as above it can be anticipated and thus prevented.Just an example from my own melee build would be Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap(Selene).
Opponents can anticipate the burst if they're aware of the combo, but they can't really react after it happens.
This is cheese, because you can't see the attacker.Latest victim of many "nerf" threads is the stam Warden Shalks->Stampede/Crit Rush+DBOS->Rev Slice one - there's no reacting after that happens because you're dead.
This is not cheese, because you can both see the attacker and get notified about the charge on you. A simple block on the charge will prevent everything besides Shalks (because awesome warden design with Shalks).Then there's mag DKs with Fossilize+Leap/Meteor
Fossil+leap doesn't work, because you're able to break free and block in time.
Fossil+meteor (the other way around though) works really good and requires anticipation for proper defense., sorcs with a well timed Curse, Wrath & Streak/Scamp stun+Frag proc etc etc.
SInce curse is fully visible on you you can prevent any sorc's burst by pre-blocking and pre-cloaking.Exactly (unless you play medium armor & get hit by enough undodgeable bs).
Even with the undodgeable stuff you can avoid it in medium. It's hard, but not impossible to do consistently even against the best players.
Medium armor in general is a hard mode of eso pvp and thus promotes developing this precision. I personally can't play heavy at all. Way too boring.Consider for a moment how your addon might affect opponents' chances of anticipating that burst when they get a 1s+ heads up before it's even in the air.
Ok, about 1s heads up.
Skills with a pre-channel exist in the game for a reason. They are much more awkward to use that insta cast skills and provide a way higher time to react to them (just like you claim). The design intention behind these skills is to add more damage and more secondary effects (cc, debuffs) to a skill that are offset by their intrinsic disadvantages. Which are the cast time itself (and thus much higher chance to react to) and in all ranged cases - interruptibility.
These skils have to provide this '1s heads up', because if they hit once the result is much more drastic than insta cast skills. This is the design.
Now, if you try to hide their channel time (by attacking from stealth, for instance) essentially you're exploiting the intended design. You get rid of the drawbacks, while keeps all the benefits. You utilize ZOS oversight that starting a channel doesn't break stealth and exploit it to your unfair advantage. You use these skills in an unintended way for personal gains.
Imagine you could hide the upwind of all those channles consistently. They would outperform any insta cast spammable, making the later redundant.
This is precisely why ganking was a problem. Not because you couldn't see the ganker. But because he exploited hard hitting channeled attacks, by making their channels fully undetectable.Heavy armor became meta because heavy armor deals more damage (Fury/Legion), survives pressure from undodgeable bs and yes, has better chances at living vs burst (as it should).
Light armor is still popular though, especially amongst sorcs.
This property of heavy armor became widespread because people had the need to farm it. Even if it's generally better, many people wouldn't prefer its playstyle unless they were forced into it. And they were.Game was designed to have the actual skill animations visible and audible. Not the cast bar, especially for stealthed players.
This statement contradicts the state of the game even disregarding API at all. Amination canceling precisely makes ' actual skill animations' invisible. PVE notifications about hard hitting stuff imply the design knew pure audio/visual cues were not enough.
The only question is why ZOS themselves didn't bother making a version of my alerts a part of the base ui. Which might be explained with the lack of resources allocated to pvp in general.Don't believe me? Go play on console and tell me what you see.
i see a severely underdeveloped UI, especially in the combat department. I do regret consoles are so far behind in that regard.Neither is mine, I play builds that work everywhere, not just duels. I don't run sneak around Cyrodiil swapping my skills around, ready to perfectly 1v1 anyone lol
The point was that even 1v1 cyro encounters don't support 'level playing field' even with the absence of addons.Yes, your addon. Not the other ones out there. Also, someone well-versed in LUA can just open the addon folder and manually enable them.
If they want it that way - let them have it that way. I disabled the addon in duels only to reduce amount of irrelevant blames from dueling people. I don't find the addon helpful in duels, nor it was ever designed to help there.Also, lets not forget BGs.
If they release truly competitive bg variant i'll disable the addon there.No, they are not. Why do you think people keep bringing up ranged attacks?
I don't know why and you won't like my guesses.Very few (if any) builds use Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing as their main DPS ability, where as almost every ranged projectile is affected by your addon (travel/cast times).
Each melee build relies on a gapcloser. The rest of his damage is instantaneous. Again i would add more stuff from melee builds if i could. You got any suggestions?Highlighted is strictly not true, as pointed multiple times in this thread and others.
See what Chip responded to you in the esoui thread.
As i already replied to you elsewhere Chip didn't announce official ZOS stance. Chip expressed his own private tentative understanding to help me figure out likely areas of confrontation. It never was nor supposed to be a ZOS rule.
You ignored my reply the last time. Try to put more attention now, please.What it sounds like is that they forgot/didnt know how to add proper limitations to prevent abuse of the API.
Ask Chip instead. To me it doesn't sound like that for the reasons above. To me it sounds like Chip was given a task that he successfully finished.Not everything that is in the game (or available to the public in API) is in intentionally.
See: all exploits, bugs, flaws etc.
Only ZOS can determine what is or isn't a bug/exploit/flaw. If they confirm - it's an exploit, if they don't - it's an intended mechanics. There's literally no other point of judgement here.
I consider hidden channels an exploit. ZOS doesn't call it an exploit. I have to accept it.Different game, different combat system.
With much higher reliance on making a successful cast. Because if not prevented one cast could win a game. And given this much higher necessity to notice and interrupt they have even less restrictive system of UI customization. Keep in mind that WoW support a competitive pvp environment that ESO never did.People would be screaming bloody murder if rogue stealth openers had cast timers and Gladius notified people about them.
People would 'be screaming bloody murder' if a rouge could prechannel his opener to drastically increase its damage and Gladius did not notify people about it.WoW also doesn't have any action combat elements that would allow you to react to every cast.
But making those casts is much more important there. And since interrupts had cooldowns as well it was 'bloody important' to know when a cast is happening.Ok, I'll go record some duels on PTS then - if only to prove you wrong. I already did some on PTS and beat some good sorcs & stamblades with it.
What you can expect is a lot of rinse&repeat of trying to land the burst combo (just like any other build) & kiting around fear trap/rearming trap while multiple hard hitting DoTs pressure the opponent.
Truly a unique playstyle - closest equivalent would be sorc with mines, but it's different (and has a really, really steep learning curve).
If it doesn't incorporate snipe as the main spammable - this build is irrelevant to our discussion. If it does - i'd like to know how exactly do you expect to pull it off in 1v1.
Edited by Dorrino on October 18, 2017 8:35PM2
This discussion has been closed.