ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

Bhaal5

Thank christ ps4 does not have addons. Sounds like a cheat engine to me.
Progressions should be-
"Oh no someone ganked me oh no", harden up cupcake and get some pots of 'getgood', learn from your failures and get back in there.
Not-
"Oh no someone ganked me", download addon, problem solved?

Dorrino

KingMagaw wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

I see the love of me grows stronger and stronger with time:)

What i find interesting though, is the prevalence of purely subjective and ungrounded claims regarding the 'intended state of the game'.

it's been shown multiple times that build diversity has nothing to do with the addon. that ranged channels still have huge hit percentage (giving us a hint that they need to be additionally nerfed), that high damage ganking still works quite effectively, that equating something with exploits/cheats can only possible if developing team makes a clear case-by-case claim about it, that the author enjoys his creation and wishes it to be baseline interface feature - it's all have been demonstrated multiple times during the existence of the addon:)

And yet, some people still have the 'higher knowledge':) The knowledge of 'how things should be'. This would've been understandable if they shared it as their personal preference, but no, they come in and 'tell the truth'. I find this aspect the most peculiar part of the whole 'discussion'.

Players asked for your addon features to be disabled/looked at last time, ZOS looked at it and restricted some API which disabled some of the features.

Seems the majority are asking for ZOS to do so again, which is any players 'right'. Time for you to code in another crutch i suppose, based on the past and all.

As always thanks for the love.

And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.

About crutches, i do trust that people having this impression play exclusively with their UI turned off. Because having any UI is cheating in the game when situational awareness is the key. And yep, that's the truth because i said so.

geonsocal

Malic wrote: »

Miat is just someone who is willing to be candid about what he does, I respect the hell out of him for that

candid equals the self-indulgence of one's own pride and ego - okay...

being charming and personable do not equate to having any noble traits...which 'ol dorrino may just have in spades...they definitely seem to have a good temperament and sense of humor...

however - the old compass may be a bit off...

KingMagaw

Dorrino wrote: »

And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.

Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.

ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.

Dorrino

KingMagaw wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.

Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.

ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.

Setting aside the bias of all these metrics, i have a question.

We have some number of people not liking some UI feature of an addon. But these people obviously struggle to formulate what is their problem with it. Up to the degree that they rather affectionately (and aggressively) claim that 'it's obvious' and 'it's shouldn't be in the game'. As i said before i find this attitude quite peculiar. Almost absolute lack of rational justification.

Build diversity argument is wrong. People used ganking builds with great success even before ZOS disabled heavy attacks from stealth for the UI. The only reason why currently ganking became less widespread are nerfs to damage from stealth (and movement speed stacking in stealth).

Crutch argument (without even being an argument) is wrong, because it can be easily shown that any UI feature is a 'crutch' in the same sense. So it's either the whole ui in its entirety is a 'crutch' or nothing is.

What is left is just 'this shouldn't be a thing'. I understand gankers personal problems. They hope to be able to make a build that kills people without any retaliation and thus the lower their skill level is the more they rely on cheesy mechanics like an ability to charge up a heavy hitter on an unaware target.

But i doubt that all the people complaining are these gankers? Are they?

So if somebody doesn't look for an easy no-brainer kill, if he respects the target enough to allow it a chance to react to his attack, but at the same time have problems with the addon, i'd appreciate to hear his reasoning as to why this addon is a problem for him.

Thank you!

KingMagaw

In my experience, which is only ~2.5 years playing, is that combat addons/addons shouldn't be in a PvP environment, as to encourage same level playing field.

Miatts is probably the biggest culprit at the minute, at least for addons that were made public. When it was first released, showing information as to how many players were around etc was obviously too much, thus ZoS looked at the API and restricted it.

I personally think it takes some skill component out of the game by showing incoming attacks when almost all have visual cues. Someone running this addon versus someone who doesn't provides an advantage and i would prefer everyone have a more level playing field.

I play a Night blade that doesn't use cloak and plays solo most nights as to try and get better individually not as a zerger. In a PvP environment you should always be aware and buffed like your about to be hit, shouldn't need a crutch like addon to half automate/rely on this.

Another thing is obviously this is a current issue, with how many threads and the poll that is showing a heavy bias on wanting it gone, for whatever reasons. I find it disheartening ZoS are not in the mix here with the customer/player base for whatever reason thus it was one reason why i stopped supporting them monetarily.

EDIT: I should also state that it has affected range builds quite heavily. I tried your addon and no-one with a bow stood a chance as when they charged/opened the fight, i would vigor and block, or vigor and roll or various other counters that nulled it. Used a stealth detect potion and hunted then down. Just my experience i talk from, i don't use bows are they under powered and with this addon makes them even worse.

TazESO

Judging from the number of downloads on Minion, it's use is widespread. Gankers beware! Lol

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.

Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.

ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.

Setting aside the bias of all these metrics, i have a question.

We have some number of people not liking some UI feature of an addon. But these people obviously struggle to formulate what is their problem with it. Up to the degree that they rather affectionately (and aggressively) claim that 'it's obvious' and 'it's shouldn't be in the game'. As i said before i find this attitude quite peculiar. Almost absolute lack of rational justification.

Build diversity argument is wrong. People used ganking builds with great success even before ZOS disabled heavy attacks from stealth for the UI. The only reason why currently ganking became less widespread are nerfs to damage from stealth (and movement speed stacking in stealth).

Crutch argument (without even being an argument) is wrong, because it can be easily shown that any UI feature is a 'crutch' in the same sense. So it's either the whole ui in its entirety is a 'crutch' or nothing is.

What is left is just 'this shouldn't be a thing'. I understand gankers personal problems. They hope to be able to make a build that kills people without any retaliation and thus the lower their skill level is the more they rely on cheesy mechanics like an ability to charge up a heavy hitter on an unaware target.

But i doubt that all the people complaining are these gankers? Are they?

So if somebody doesn't look for an easy no-brainer kill, if he respects the target enough to allow it a chance to react to his attack, but at the same time have problems with the addon, i'd appreciate to hear his reasoning as to why this addon is a problem for him.

Thank you!

Ok, let's try this in a civil manner one last time (this has all been explained to you around 64 times):

Your addon (and private ones with the same function) makes any build utilizing a cast time ability useless by providing 1s+ heads up before the main burst of those builds is even in the air.

If a build can't land its main burst (e.g. Dark Flare, Snipe, Frag etc), it can't win.

Thus your addon presents two options for people who'd like to utilize these cast time abilities:

1. Change the build and playstyle, play one of the toxic meta builds & contribute to the downfall of this game.
2. Quit the game.

Not ideal, huh?

Your addon effectively removes the "reaction time/reflex" skill element from the game when playing these builds, while not doing the same for builds utilizing instant cast abilities (or heavy attacks from stealth, which are the deadliest form of ganking).


I get that you think "everyone should have a chance to react" (which they've always had vs ranged abilities), but this isn't really true for the meta builds out there is it?
Most builds thrive on having a burst that can take out your opponent before he can react, because if your opponent reacts your opponent is back at full health, permablocking and/or spamming shields.
You know this, I know this.


Point is, all your addon currently does is make cast time abilities useless (because they're the ones affected), as well as playstyles utilizing those (e.g. bow builds, Dark Flare magplars).
It does nothing but benefit the toxic meta builds most of us have grown tired of and drives more people into those few viable playstyles.


And before you start the bs about ranged builds still being able to hit people, go fight someone actually using your addon with a Snipe or Dark Flare focused build - see what happens.

KingMagaw wrote:

EDIT: I should also state that it has affected range builds quite heavily. I tried your addon and no-one with a bow stood a chance as when they charged/opened the fight, i would vigor and block, or vigor and roll or various other counters that nulled it. Used a stealth detect potion and hunted then down. Just my experience i talk from, i don't use bows are they under powered and with this addon makes them even worse.

This is my experience as well - it is practically impossible to lose to a bow build, Dark Flare magplar or anyone using cast time abilities when using this addon. It also shows the exact moment when Warden birds land allowing you to time blocks perfectly, shows incoming projectiles arriving from out of camera angle and so many other things that go against how the game was designed...

Dorrino

@KingMagaw

I don’t think that ‘level playing field’ argument can be applied to Cyro at all.

‘Level playing field’ is a sports competition term. When you have a game environment with clear rules, clear performance metrics and lack of ad hoc imbalances.

So it works for a basketball game with strict 5v5 competition with a clear win condition (highest score during a fixed time limit) and stops working if a side in the match can suddenly get 15 additional players with 3 of them taking a nap in the middle of the court and 5 more trying to score into their own basket.

Cyro doesn’t have neither strict rules, nor a win condition. Is it a win if you were fighting 1v2 and your faction zerg rolled over them? Is in a win if one of them crashed? Got a lag spike? Router problem?

Is it a ‘level playing field’ if a guy from stealth can take 90% of your health with zero prior indication of his existence? And if it’s 100%? Is it a win?:)

Speaking of running an addon vs not running. This argument then should be applied to all combat related addons in the game. Since running a different addon would alter the ‘level playibg field’. Even more the same argument should be applied to zos ui customization. Having ult numbers provide a clear advantage over not having them. Should we force the same base ui settings for everybody in pvp then?

About 1v1 against a ‘bow-user’.

Bow never was 1v1 weapon, with the addon or without. Pure bow user never had a chance against any other spec. I’m not sure what dreams people might have about bow main hand builds, but they don’t work in 1v1 because Zos design first and foremost.

The addon can’t kill something that never existed.

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

@KingMagaw

I don’t think that ‘level playing field’ argument can be applied to Cyro at all.

‘Level playing field’ is a sports competition term. When you have a game environment with clear rules, clear performance metrics and lack of ad hoc imbalances.

So it works for a basketball game with strict 5v5 competition with a clear win condition (highest score during a fixed time limit) and stops working if a side in the match can suddenly get 15 additional players with 3 of them taking a nap in the middle of the court and 5 more trying to score into their own basket.

Cyro doesn’t have neither strict rules, nor a win condition. Is it a win if you were fighting 1v2 and your faction zerg rolled over them? Is in a win if one of them crashed? Got a lag spike? Router problem?

Is it a ‘level playing field’ if a guy from stealth can take 90% of your health with zero prior indication of his existence? And if it’s 100%? Is it a win?:)

No, Cyrodiil isn't a "level playing field" unless you manage to find an actual 1v1 fight (a rarity). Battlegrounds & duels on the other hand are.

Does it matter if someone deals that 90% of your health from stealth, or if that happens point blank outside of stealth? Not that your addon makes a difference, melee builds not being affected and all.

Against bow burst there has always been a chance to react (with your addon, a guarantee to react) - longer range, easier to react & viceversa.

Dorrino wrote: »

Speaking of running an addon vs not running. This argument then should be applied to all combat related addons in the game. Since running a different addon would alter the ‘level playibg field’. Even more the same argument should be applied to zos ui customization. Having ult numbers provide a clear advantage over not having them. Should we force the same base ui settings for everybody in pvp then?

Those are part of the base game and thus clearly intended to be in by developers. They also follow tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs - your addon does not.

Dorrino wrote: »

About 1v1 against a ‘bow-user’.

Bow never was 1v1 weapon, with the addon or without. Pure bow user never had a chance against any other spec. I’m not sure what dreams people might have about bow main hand builds, but they don’t work in 1v1 because Zos design first and foremost.

The addon can’t kill something that never existed.

Actually bow worked fine in 2014-2015. Your account page says "Joined June 2016" so am I right assuming you didn't play back then?

I have multiple videos on my channel to corroborate this fact, including duels against actual good players.


But that's besides the point, the fact that something hasn't been viable for a couple of years as a main weapon doesn't mean it should remain so because of a 3rd party addon. There are many people who are anxious to play bow again competitively, and yes it'll be possible next patch - atleast on consoles where your addon doesn't exist.

I might even release a build video for the Bow/Bow setup before the PTS is over.

Urza1234

Fuxo wrote: »

I don't understand why ZOS support these hate topics by not communicating their stance. This is unhealthy for the game. Their game.

Its somewhat understandable. Anything ZOS comments on gets 10x the forum attention it otherwise would. If they dont have an official stance yet on an issue then commenting just exaggerates community response. If they do have an official stance they can just patch it in and tell you in the patch notes.

They watch the forum constantly, provable by the fact that their moderation is pretty strict in the areas they care about. They just dont care about every single complaint thread, 99% of which hold contradictory and underdeveloped opinions.

MoeCoastie

Prison mentality....

I choose to keep my dignity and not take it up the butt just to "survive."

Don't want this add-on, don't need this add-on, but I'm not gonna bash those that decide they need to switch teams just to compete.

Dorrino

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

Your addon (and private ones with the same function) makes any build utilizing a cast time ability useless by providing 1s+ heads up before the main burst of those builds is even in the air.

This has been shown to be false multiple times.

I didn't get any objections to my rebuttals.

DDuke wrote: »

If a build can't land its main burst (e.g. Dark Flare, Snipe, Frag etc), it can't win.

None of the builds besides stealth gank ones have this problem. Magplar doesn't rely on Dark Flare landing, mag sorc doesn't rely on frags landing, there's no 1v1 builds with snipe as their main burst, thus nobody relies on it to land to win.

All those skills (with a slight exception of frags) exist to provide an opportunistic ranged pressure. I.e. if they hit that guy ooover there - awesome, if they don't hit - oh well, i can keep spamming.

Frags is an exception, since in its main use it doesn't have an cast time and thus is irrelevant to your point.

DDuke wrote: »

Thus your addon presents two options for people who'd like to utilize these cast time abilities:

1. Change the build and playstyle, play one of the toxic meta builds & contribute to the downfall of this game.
2. Quit the game.

3. Accept the intended role of those skills and use them where they are applicable.

DDuke wrote: »

Not ideal, huh?

The problem with a wrongly constructed biased claim is its falseness and its bias.

DDuke wrote: »

Your addon effectively removes the "reaction time/reflex" skill element from the game when playing these builds, while not doing the same for builds utilizing instant cast abilities (or heavy attacks from stealth, which are the deadliest form of ganking).

The notifications allows for the reaction. I don't see how it can remove something its strongly promotes. This point needs clarification.

And i'd love to support melee stealth ganks again. Unfortunately i can't do that anymore.

DDuke wrote: »

I get that you think "everyone should have a chance to react" (which they've always had vs ranged abilities), but this isn't really true for the meta builds out there is it?

They almost always had. Lag and game glitches introduce a whole lot of situations when the cues are not even played.

DDuke wrote: »

Most builds thrive on having a burst that can take out your opponent before he can react

I fully disagree with this.

None of the builds besides stealth gank ones does that.

Any other builds provide a vast number of options to react to their burst.

Give me any example so i could see what do you refer to.

DDuke wrote: »

, because if your opponent reacts your opponent is back at full health, permablocking and/or spamming shields.
You know this, I know this.

That's one of the main reasons why duels don't work in this game. The only way to win a duel, is for the opponent to fail to anticipate the burst.

On the top level vast majority of duels end in a draw.

I don't agree that a solution to that, should be a hidden burst. The solution should be a major change to the whole combat system, because current one produces a draw.

DDuke wrote: »

It does nothing but benefit the toxic meta builds most of us have grown tired of and drives more people into those few viable playstyles.

Again, i don't agree that SUDDEN (TM) burst from stealth is a solution to the meta. On the contrary it just leads to even higher imbalance of the combat and thus higher frustrations of the participants. Because people will just build in such a way to ignore that sudden burst. And that's exactly why heavy meta became widespread as the response to one shot ganking. This type of ganking if not created the meta, but at least hugely sped up its adoption.

DDuke wrote: »

And before you start the bs about ranged builds still being able to hit people, go fight someone actually using your addon with a Snipe or Dark Flare focused build - see what happens.

a. Don't be a *derogatory term with a homosexual flavor* and stop insulting people that talk to you, please.
b. Those. Builds. Fail. In. 1v1. With or without my addon. They just don't work. Ask ZOS to make them work. Again my addon can't kill something that's dead.

DDuke wrote: »

This is my experience as well - it is practically impossible to lose to a bow build, Dark Flare magplar or anyone using cast time abilities when using this addon. It also shows the exact moment when Warden birds land allowing you to time blocks perfectly, shows incoming projectiles arriving from out of camera angle and so many other things that go against how the game was designed...

The game was designed to make all of them visible. That's how it was designed and that's how it works. Claming otherwise has to have a rational ground. I still want to hear it.

DDuke wrote: »

No, Cyrodiil isn't a "level playing field" unless you manage to find an actual 1v1 fight (a rarity). Battlegrounds & duels on the other hand are.

Even if you happen to find 1v1 in cyro it is still not an example of 'level playing field', because his build might not be suitable for duels.

The only environment you can try to apply the 'level playing field' mantra - are duels. And that's why the addon is disabled there.

DDuke wrote: »

Does it matter if someone deals that 90% of your health from stealth, or if that happens point blank outside of stealth?

This is crucial. If the attacker is visible you can always prevent his burst. Even in the meta when a lot of hard hitting stuff go through dodge. Awareness (in this case visibility) makes the world of difference and turns an unskillful cheesy attack to a fair fight (within the game's combat system). Yep, just that.

DDuke wrote: »

Not that your addon makes a difference, melee builds not being affected and all.

Melee builds are equally affected since i provide notifications for gapclosers and dizzing swing.

I literally included everything that i could and that could matter for the player. Without emphasize on ranged attacks. Anything that is not included is either impossible to track (dk leap) or is instantaneous (pointless to track).

DDuke wrote: »

Against bow burst there has always been a chance to react (with your addon, a guarantee to react) - longer range, easier to react & viceversa.

Yep. That's why snipes were included for consistency, not because of necessity.

DDuke wrote: »

Those are part of the base game and thus clearly intended to be in by developers.

Exactly like my addon (and all other addons) that can use nothing, but the game's API that is fully intended to exist in its current form by the developers. Developers made that API not for custom addons specifically. They made it for themselves to be able to make UI with it. The addon use precisely what developers use (with some limitations, mostly related to automated actions).

If you consider base ui intended because devs provided it to the players you have to consider the whole API intended as well. For the same reasons. Because both things are provided by the same developers. If you doubt their intentions regarding the API you have to doubt their intentions regarding base UI as well. Exactly same team of people.

DDuke wrote: »

They also follow tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs - your addon does not.

On the contrary my addon strictly follows (and in some parts in based on) 'tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs' that supported public API customization of the UI.

In WoW for many years we had addons that not just showed buffs and cast bars for people that attacked you, they showed same things for literally anybody around the players. With convenient notifications about key events like 'a guy somewhere nearby used a big cooldown'. My addon in its first iteration was close to that 'tradition & precedence set by other MMORPGs'. Unfortunately now the only things that are left are attacks against the player himself.

DDuke wrote: »

Actually bow worked fine in 2014-2015. Your account page says "Joined June 2016" so am I right assuming you didn't play back then?

I registered on the forums at that date. I started playing in 2015 right after Tamriel Unlimited.

DDuke wrote: »

I have multiple videos on my channel to corroborate this fact, including duels against actual good players.

Without delving into 'good old days' let me substitute 'never existed' with 'never existed in the combat system of the last 2 years'. Before that the combat system was different enough to be irrelevant to the current issues.

DDuke wrote: »

But that's besides the point, the fact that something hasn't been viable for a couple of years as a main weapon doesn't mean it should remain so because of a 3rd party addon.

It remains so because ZOS designs the game this way. Main hand bow 1v1 doesn't work with or without my addon.

DDuke wrote: »

There are many people who are anxious to play bow again competitively, and yes it'll be possible next patch - atleast on consoles where your addon doesn't exist.

This will not be possible, until snipe get drastic changes. Asylum bow doesn't make snipe effective, because it changes nothing about its mechanics.

DDuke wrote: »

I might even release a build video for the Bow/Bow setup before the PTS is over.

Release a duel, but before try to argument how would a bow work in 1v1. Cloak and snipe? The target blocks/dodges until you reappear. Your move?

geonsocal

sometimes you just have to be thankful for those small joys in life...

not only do all you pc master folks get all sorts of wonderful "enhanced" combat aides - y'all also get to play with all the bugs first after each patch...

yeah, ya got that going for ya

Wreuntzylla

WHO CARES ABOUT THE ADDON SEGMENT???

I've been TRIGGERED by the CHEAT segment.

Interview segment on cheating: ~11:38

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Miat says that 'for years playing ESO EP I have not seen any single person cheating,' 'haven't seen anything close to cheating,' and more problematically that he has fought "almost everybody over the years ... and not a single guy cheated." ... "(12:36) The only instance of cheating he has seen is when watching the now famous videos about something that might have been cheat engine, and states quite clearly that he knows what cheating looks and feels like, and he has not fought even one cheater in ESO over the years.

Here is what ZoS officially said in May of 2016, a good bit short of the "years" Miat has played EP on NA PC. Is it possible that Miat never ran into any of the banned people, that were banned while he played "over the years?" It could happen statistically, right up there with winning powerball...

"Just a quick update for everyone regarding the recent influx of those using third party tools to cheat in ESO. We've adjusted our automatic anti-cheat systems to focus specifically on the cheats we've seen in the last few days, in addition to launching investigations on specific players. We've permanently banned 43 players in the last 24 hours who were found to be cheating. We don't take cheating lightly, and will continue to ban those who are found to be cheating. We'll be going back through game logs to identify players who were violating our anti-cheating policies in the hours before we performed the automatic cheat detection adjustment.

In addition, we're working on a number of fixes and improvements to prevent this kind of behavior from happening in ESO in the future. We'll provide more specific details about this tomorrow.

We want to thank everyone who has helped us identify those who would ruin your game experience by cheating, and the means by which they were doing so."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3023650/#Comment_3023650

Here is an excerpt from the post from Zazeer, who outed cheat engine use in ESO.

"I was then filled in on how players have been doing this since launch but discreetly, increasing game speed by just enough so that they can hit you with 3 attacks in a second but claim to be great animation cancelers and get away with it, drop ultimate's at a seemingly fast pace but call it a ulti regen build, and remember that time the 1vX pro you were fighting never ran out of resources? My reaction to this was to enquire how this could have gone on for so long, how a game of this scale can get away with not having any anti-cheat software, how had this not been reported? As it turned out this issue had been reported MANY times in the past, entire demonstrations on how to do this very thing had been sent in yet no action taken, everything swept under the rug."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/268389/a-message-from-zazeer-hacking/p1

Miat points to the cheat engine affair and still says he never fought a cheater? Huh wha?!?!

Miat's stance is all the more absurd because we knew about the bans the day after ZoS first implemented the detection due to the ban post, the bans only covered cheating during a 24 period, and we could track who failed to login afterwards. Through the tracking and based on posts on various forums, the majority of unbeatable, hardcore NA PC players suddenly went on vacation, changed games or had unplanned business travel... The remaining balance of unbeatable players were suddenly mediocre. The odds that Miat avoided all of those hardcore players, plus anyone that was using cheat engine undetectably since launch but did not login during that 24 hour period (starting on a Sunday evening and ending on a Monday evening), puts the odds at something like winning Powerball three times in a row...

The worst part is that Miat takes the same unified stance that cheaters used as a tool to beat down anyone who raised the possibility of cheating before the big cheat engine outings began. That line of argument was dead and my jaw dropped seeing Miat use it. If you go back through the forums you will see many folks arguing the exact same thing prior to the bans. The argument is that cheating is impossible or they would have seen it, and anyone who says otherwise is a essentially a moron. It's a logically flawed argument on so many levels that I have been able to trap cheaters here on the forums based on the logical fail. Who would ever argue that something can't exist? Why would they argue so vehemently it doesn't exist, and go so far as to call posters morons, unless they had a stake? Normal people say, at most, that they don't know that any cheating has occurred, not that it hasn't...

We absolutely know now that cheating was happening all over the place in PvP for a long time before the bans, and likely after the bans. Further, to this day ZoS reinforces the fact that if their mechanism hasn't automatically caught cheating, they need to review specific data of a player, and their trigger for that review is the number of tickets submitted...

josh.lackey_ESO

Actually I think Miat's features belong in the default game UI, and that everyone attacking from stealth is exploiting a shortcoming in the default UI. No attack should be completely untelegraphed -- it's unfair, abusive, toxic bad pvp experience.

The default UI does tell you when to dodge and block, as well as making the NPCs glow. This should be added to PvP, too, but I assume for technical reasons ZOS hasn't done it. Thank you Miat for all your work.

Of course this post was not about whether or not the addon is cheating, it's clearly settled that it isn't. This was asking about cheat engine. Though I think asking about bugs and exploits would've been more informative. There have been a long list of exploits over the years and I am sure Miat knows about many of them, as would any veteran player.

LegendaryMage

@DDuke Don't waste your time arguing with this guy, he's a crutch player and he'll say anything to defend this ridiculous exploit of an API gone wrong case. That's all there is to it and everyone knows that. We need to talk with people who can actually change things, not heavy crutch PVPers with a bit of coding knowledge.

geonsocal

howdy @Dorrino ...

you come across as a very sincere individual...you have a bit of a righteous tone to your words

I believe - you believe what you say...no question about it...

the truth is your actions have caused a good amount of distress amongst the player base...

the only real counterpoint to that would be - well, I made a lot of other folks happy...

that wouldn't really be a good excuse though...

I understand your definition of fair play differs...

you can't really dispute though the effect your actions have had on others...there is no good justification...

Dorrino

geonsocal wrote: »

howdy @Dorrino ...
you come across as a very sincere individual...you have a bit of a righteous tone to your words

Thank you. I try to be as sincere as possible, because i value clear communication as much as i value clear combat info in the game:)

geonsocal wrote: »

the truth is your actions have caused a good amount of distress amongst the player base...

the only real counterpoint to that would be - well, I made a lot of other folks happy...

I don't have a counterpoint. I accept that as an unfortunate reality. I'd love for people not to get frustrated over things like this and that's mostly the reason i'm responding to these threads. To educate and reassure.

But i believe it's the choice of each person to get frustrated or not. I do what i think is awesome to exist. If you (general 'you') choose to be frustrated from something i've done, i feel for you and emphasize, but i still consider that thing an awesome thing and worth existing. I'll help you as much as i can, but i won't help you by removing something that i consider to be awesome from the world. There's literally nothing in the world that can make each single person happy, so if you do something you have to regretfully accept that somebody will get hurt against it. I'm sorry about that.

geonsocal wrote: »

I understand your definition of fair play differs...

you can't really dispute though the effect your actions have had on others...there is no good justification...

There can't be a justification for suffering, unless the person who suffers decides to stop his own suffering.

Thus i'm not looking for excuses. I accept the results.

a1i3nz

Ummm who cares when the game is garbage ><

Betsararie

a1i3nz wrote: »

Ummm who cares when the game is garbage ><

The game is "garbage" because of things like this add on. If ESO was treated like a hyper competitive e sport, which is what it needs, trash like this add on would never be allowed.

The competitive aspect of this game needs to be emphasized in order to keep people interested/ bring people in.

Moving in a casual direction or legalizing "cheats" is not something that it needs.

Publius_Scipio

This is from a ZOS AMA on reddit from back in the day.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/20x73q/welcome_to_the_eso_ama/cg7ks9w/?context=3

Sage almost verbatim said what many of us have said recently on this topic. For whatever reason Mr. Sage lost that battle. And here we are in 2017 going back and forth and arguing about something he wanted to avoid altogether back in early 2014.

Enslaved

>creates who knows how many cheat addons
>lets one (probably the least controversal) go live
>"did it to educate ppl"
>"hurr durr"
>breaks already broken PvP even more
>plays victim on forums

Defended by 2 types of ppl
- known serial exploiters and cheaters
- scrubs that need 3rd wheel to even get up out of bed in the morning

Dorrino

Enslaved wrote: »

>creates who knows how many cheat addons
>lets one (probably the least controversal) go live
>"did it to educate ppl"
>"hurr durr"
>breaks already broken PvP even more
>plays victim on forums

Defended by 2 types of ppl
- known serial exploiters and cheaters
- scrubs that need 3rd wheel to even get up out of bed in the morning

This is an awesome game for two, my love:)

> didn't create anything worthy attention of other people both ingame and irl
> didn't even help other people with their creations
> didn't do anything because most likely incapable of a creative thought even though envies really hard to those who are
> expresses his envy through aggressive attitude towards the target of his envy
> doesn't understand PVP nor processes even average PVP skills
> enjoys being a forum hater

But even you is worthy empathy and compassion. Maybe even more so than most other people.

Betsararie

Enslaved wrote: »

>creates who knows how many cheat addons
>lets one (probably the least controversal) go live
>"did it to educate ppl"
>"hurr durr"
>breaks already broken PvP even more
>plays victim on forums

Defended by 2 types of ppl
- known serial exploiters and cheaters
- scrubs that need 3rd wheel to even get up out of bed in the morning

the truth is right here

Jaybe_Mawfaka

The way that the creator is pretending to be a good pvper who exactly knows for whatever reason what the game need is even more hilarious than the scrub users of this pathetic addon who support it.
Keep it going though, I've had a good laugh this morning

Enslaved

Dorrino wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

>creates who knows how many cheat addons
>lets one (probably the least controversal) go live
>"did it to educate ppl"
>"hurr durr"
>breaks already broken PvP even more
>plays victim on forums

Defended by 2 types of ppl
- known serial exploiters and cheaters
- scrubs that need 3rd wheel to even get up out of bed in the morning

This is an awesome game for two, my love:)

> didn't create anything worthy attention of other people both ingame and irl
> didn't even help other people with their creations
> didn't do anything because most likely incapable of a creative thought even though envies really hard to those who are
> expresses his envy through aggressive attitude towards the target of his envy
> doesn't understand PVP nor processes even average PVP skills
> enjoys being a forum hater

But even you is worthy empathy and compassion. Maybe even more so than most other people.

"dis iz gaem fur (checks addon for number) two, muh rove"
"u didnut creatz any cheetah fur pplz irl or in gaem, so u nott relewantz"
"I iz creativeh, muh molag balz r bettah, ur juzt jelly u cantt creatz cheetah leik muh"
"I understandz PwP, look at muh cheetah, u cantt evun win again my zerg skillz"
> enjoys being forum hater At least u got that right.

And for the love of jesus christ, stop rping jesus christ. Who gives an ounce of shiet about your compassion bs crap.
You created an addon that is exploiting Zos incompetence, made PvP even worse and now you act high and mighty like you created cure for aids.

Koensol

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@DDuke Don't waste your time arguing with this guy, he's a crutch player and he'll say anything to defend this ridiculous exploit of an API gone wrong case. That's all there is to it and everyone knows that. We need to talk with people who can actually change things, not heavy crutch PVPers with a bit of coding knowledge.

I have to agree. When I read these walls of text I can't stop but think how delusional and simple minded his view of the game is. I can't remember when I ever saw a person coming this close to a literal calculator. As in, no ability to think past what is provided. Seemingly obsessed with 'rational judgement', while being completely devoid of any critical thinking.

I mean how can you possibly believe the devs intended for a UI addon to hard counter an ingame mechanic, while they already have multiple ingame counters for said mechanic? And how can you possibly believe the devs did not intend for stealth attacks to go unseen, when they are literally giving stealth attacks a bonus: i.e. stun on attack from stealth, and previously also increased damage. It is crystal clear that they intended stealth attacks to exist.

Still, the robot brain goes: API gives X information. Therefore X is intended. When you provide any form of context, as in "the default game does not provide a way to detect a hidden player casting an ability, therefore this addon function should not exist", their robot brain stalls and returns to default modus: API gives X information. Therefore X is intended. Rinse and repeat.

This discussion is useless and going in circles. I can't wait until ZOS just speaks their freaking minds so we can be done with this once and for all. If they decide this function is fine, I know what I will do. But at least they made a decision.

Wrubius_Coronaria

Hi, today it's sunny, you should try to enjoy to be outside it's good for your mood all.

Riejael

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Looks like you don't even read comments written by people who have different opinion.

Why should I when they make ad hominem attacks against those whom they disagree with?

Calling someone a cheater is an ad hominem attack. An insult, and serves what purpose? Seriously tell me what purpose does it serve?

Do you all really believe that calling a user of the addon a cheater will make them go, "OMG I've been such a jerk, I must repent and delete this immediately!"

You all really think that?

All you all have done is informed people of this addon and I've personally known at least 2 people who have downloaded it because of this thread. Now more people are going to 'cheat' as you call it. More people will detect your steath. More people will auto roll dodge out of your attacks. More people will split-second block your stuff.

Is that what you all wanted. Because that's what you've got.

What's ironic is you say I ignore those people who have a different opinion and don't read their comments. I want you to do something @Shardan4968 I want you to state your opinion of the addon. Now I want you to read back to some of my previous posts and find out what -my- opinion is.

Post both. Think of it as a little assignment. I think once you've got both side by side you will cancel the reply. The irony will be VERY apparent. If you don't wish to click back. Just post your opinion as a reply to this. I'll do the leg work for you and respond back with mine quoted alongside yours.