Blanco wrote: »

Zbigb4life wrote: »

Not everyone wants to participate in end-game pve. There is no need in difference between crafted and dropped sets.

Lol'd!!

Basically what you're saying here is, "I shouldn't have to play the game if I don't want to, but I still play the game anyway, so I deserve all the best gear without having to work for it."

Your logic FTW!!

BTW, I've always disagreed with trial sets being bad but from the time I've been playing they've never been good, so I haven't spent much time farming them, though I do have pieces from each set and some complete sets but they never see use.

Alternatively, dungeon sets are good, and are often used in PvP and take comparable amounts of time to farm.

Tannus15 wrote: »

No, sorry, you're just wrong.

One of the many things this game gets right is where the "good" sets come from.
It's nicely divided up between crafted, overland, dungeon, PVP and trials.

Not only that but you can fill in the gaps in what sets you have "access" to with mundas and CP.
I actually go out of my way to use different sets on all my characters, just for the variety of it.

Briar-heart is arguably as good as hundings, especially if you're using 5pc hunding, 5pc TFS and a monster set, since the briar heart proc will carry over to the back bar.

There are no crafted tank sets in use in the meta at the moment.
There are no crafted healing sets in use in the meta at the moment.

Basically what you're complaining about is hundings rage and julianos and both of them have alternative drop sets of equal or better value.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Flawed and Hyperbolic.

Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.

And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?

If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.

There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.

The argument is about gear that is able to be attained via being sent from another player, being just as strong (if not more in many builds) versus gear that is acquired from running the hardest content in the game... You can try and twist vocabulary around and argue it as a BOP vs BOE topic, but that is exactly what this thread has been about since the start... Your argument is obtaining some of the best gear in the game should be able to be done via BOE, that is fine. My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain. Giving more enjoyment and feelings of successful progression for the people that run the hardest content this game has to offer. I highly doubt it will change, but that is my opinion. Regardless, trash players will always be trash no matter what gear they have. It is rather weird that a vast amount of major aspects of gear obtaining are so ridiculously easy... Please do me a favor, do not accuse me of trying to decrease enjoyment of others when the logical reasoning behind my theory clearly points towards people having more enjoyment of the end game content.

Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? My bad!

I have highlighted the flaw in your argument. The one you keep making. You are in favour of increasing the enjoyment of the end game content. What proportion of players play the kind of endgame content (VMA, VDSA or Trials) that is likely to drop the kinds of equipment that you seem to be referring to? Because unless that percentage is 100% then decreasing the effectiveness of the crafted gear will impact the players who don't.

Your argument is flawed because you not only consider only one play style worthy... you only consider one play style.

When you can demonstrably prove why decreasing the effectiveness of crafted sets will in no way affect the utility and enjoyment of the players who don't play endgame... then you will have a complete argument.

deano469 wrote: »

@Shadzilla

It is obvious, from the content of this thread, that your "opinion" is overwhelmingly unpopular.

Give up.

You lose.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Flawed and Hyperbolic.

Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.

And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?

If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.

There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.

The argument is about gear that is able to be attained via being sent from another player, being just as strong (if not more in many builds) versus gear that is acquired from running the hardest content in the game... You can try and twist vocabulary around and argue it as a BOP vs BOE topic, but that is exactly what this thread has been about since the start... Your argument is obtaining some of the best gear in the game should be able to be done via BOE, that is fine. My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain. Giving more enjoyment and feelings of successful progression for the people that run the hardest content this game has to offer. I highly doubt it will change, but that is my opinion. Regardless, trash players will always be trash no matter what gear they have. It is rather weird that a vast amount of major aspects of gear obtaining are so ridiculously easy... Please do me a favor, do not accuse me of trying to decrease enjoyment of others when the logical reasoning behind my theory clearly points towards people having more enjoyment of the end game content.

Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? My bad!

I have highlighted the flaw in your argument. The one you keep making. You are in favour of increasing the enjoyment of the end game content. What proportion of players play the kind of endgame content (VMA, VDSA or Trials) that is likely to drop the kinds of equipment that you seem to be referring to? Because unless that percentage is 100% then decreasing the effectiveness of the crafted gear will impact the players who don't.

Your argument is flawed because you not only consider only one play style worthy... you only consider one play style.

When you can demonstrably prove why decreasing the effectiveness of crafted sets will in no way affect the utility and enjoyment of the players who don't play endgame... then you will have a complete argument.

Why do you constantly refer to just pve? Go read the post again... The concept is simple. In both pve and pvp crafted sets are used as stepping stones to get better gear in both aspects of the game. What game do you know of where you stop improving your gear halfway through due to the fact you already achieved the best? Does not make much sense bud. If you keep progressing through a game you should keep upgrading things while doing so... Your logic is someone who does not do much of anything should have the best possible gear available through BOE... Versus people that spend more time and achieve more accomplishments in pve or pvp that do not come across higher tiered gear? This argument considers both pve and pvp playstyles... Which is everything this game has to offer? I can understand you do not run end game content, which is fine. Do not feel that your crafted sets will be horrific or trash in any way... Why are you so angry about a buff to the gear in end game content? The crafted gear will not get nerfed, your stats/abilities would stay the same rendering them unchanged in any way... A small buff suggestion to gear achieved for end game situations really aggravates you that much?

I refer to PvE because the endgame activities are more specifically defined and therefore are easier to talk about in a discussion like this.

You didn't answer my question. Can you prove that these changes would not impact the enjoyment of others?

In addition to this:

1. You say that people not doing competitive content are stopping "halfway through".
2. You say that people not doing competitive content are not doing "much of anything".
3. You imply (and I'm being kind here) that endgame PvE and PvP are "everything this game has to offer".

Not one of the above assertions is correct. That may well go some way towards explaining why you can't see how your suggestion might be destructive to some people. There are play styles that do not include endgame PvE or PvP that do not preclude all interest in gear. Honestly.

As for the "small buff" argument? Let's first consider the history. Crafted gear was, originally, even better than it is now. It was brought into "parity" with dropped gear on the basis of complaints like yours. So, considering the history, even if it was just a small buff, it would be a small buff on top of a large nerf.

Then following on from this, suggesting that the buff would be small is likely to be unsubstantiated for two reasons:

Firstly, if you are going to provide an incentive for people to play through the content for anything more than bragging rights, then the improvement due to dropped gear is going to have to be significant enough for people to spend the time and energy beating the content itself. The harder the content, the better the gear is going to need to be.

Secondly, the stepping-stone argument is one I can also use. For all content to remain relevant yet provide an ongoing incentive then each stone is going to have to be a little higher than the previous one. And when new content comes out? A little higher again (see the argument about incentives in the paragraph above) and so on and so on. Unless the efficacy of crafted gear was improved in tandem (which would then render previous endgame content utterly useless) then the small increases would quickly add up into a large one.

For all of these reasons, and others relating to why this game is not (and never should be) WoW, I continue to stand against this idea.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

deano469 wrote: »

@Shadzilla

It is obvious, from the content of this thread, that your "opinion" is overwhelmingly unpopular.

Give up.

You lose.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Flawed and Hyperbolic.

Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.

And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?

If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.

There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.

The argument is about gear that is able to be attained via being sent from another player, being just as strong (if not more in many builds) versus gear that is acquired from running the hardest content in the game... You can try and twist vocabulary around and argue it as a BOP vs BOE topic, but that is exactly what this thread has been about since the start... Your argument is obtaining some of the best gear in the game should be able to be done via BOE, that is fine. My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain. Giving more enjoyment and feelings of successful progression for the people that run the hardest content this game has to offer. I highly doubt it will change, but that is my opinion. Regardless, trash players will always be trash no matter what gear they have. It is rather weird that a vast amount of major aspects of gear obtaining are so ridiculously easy... Please do me a favor, do not accuse me of trying to decrease enjoyment of others when the logical reasoning behind my theory clearly points towards people having more enjoyment of the end game content.

Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? My bad!

I have highlighted the flaw in your argument. The one you keep making. You are in favour of increasing the enjoyment of the end game content. What proportion of players play the kind of endgame content (VMA, VDSA or Trials) that is likely to drop the kinds of equipment that you seem to be referring to? Because unless that percentage is 100% then decreasing the effectiveness of the crafted gear will impact the players who don't.

Your argument is flawed because you not only consider only one play style worthy... you only consider one play style.

When you can demonstrably prove why decreasing the effectiveness of crafted sets will in no way affect the utility and enjoyment of the players who don't play endgame... then you will have a complete argument.

Why do you constantly refer to just pve? Go read the post again... The concept is simple. In both pve and pvp crafted sets are used as stepping stones to get better gear in both aspects of the game. What game do you know of where you stop improving your gear halfway through due to the fact you already achieved the best? Does not make much sense bud. If you keep progressing through a game you should keep upgrading things while doing so... Your logic is someone who does not do much of anything should have the best possible gear available through BOE... Versus people that spend more time and achieve more accomplishments in pve or pvp that do not come across higher tiered gear? This argument considers both pve and pvp playstyles... Which is everything this game has to offer? I can understand you do not run end game content, which is fine. Do not feel that your crafted sets will be horrific or trash in any way... Why are you so angry about a buff to the gear in end game content? The crafted gear will not get nerfed, your stats/abilities would stay the same rendering them unchanged in any way... A small buff suggestion to gear achieved for end game situations really aggravates you that much?

I refer to PvE because the endgame activities are more specifically defined and therefore are easier to talk about in a discussion like this.

You didn't answer my question. Can you prove that these changes would not impact the enjoyment of others?

In addition to this:

1. You say that people not doing competitive content are stopping "halfway through".
2. You say that people not doing competitive content are not doing "much of anything".
3. You imply (and I'm being kind here) that endgame PvE and PvP are "everything this game has to offer".

Not one of the above assertions is correct. That may well go some way towards explaining why you can't see how your suggestion might be destructive to some people. There are play styles that do not include endgame PvE or PvP that do not preclude all interest in gear. Honestly.

As for the "small buff" argument? Let's first consider the history. Crafted gear was, originally, even better than it is now. It was brought into "parity" with dropped gear on the basis of complaints like yours. So, considering the history, even if it was just a small buff, it would be a small buff on top of a large nerf.

Then following on from this, suggesting that the buff would be small is likely to be unsubstantiated for two reasons:

Firstly, if you are going to provide an incentive for people to play through the content for anything more than bragging rights, then the improvement due to dropped gear is going to have to be significant enough for people to spend the time and energy beating the content itself. The harder the content, the better the gear is going to need to be.

Secondly, the stepping-stone argument is one I can also use. For all content to remain relevant yet provide an ongoing incentive then each stone is going to have to be a little higher than the previous one. And when new content comes out? A little higher again (see the argument about incentives in the paragraph above) and so on and so on. Unless the efficacy of crafted gear was improved in tandem (which would then render previous endgame content utterly useless) then the small increases would quickly add up into a large one.

For all of these reasons, and others relating to why this game is not (and never should be) WoW, I continue to stand against this idea.

Go read the posts that have been made in this thread again, I am not going to keep expressing the validity of the main points to please people unable to read properly... Long story short, not many people do trials... My suggestion was that crafted gear should be a stepping stone for players getting into end game pve/pvp, then better gear being obtained once progressing through that content. The fact that the majority of people disagree with that idea just goes to show how many people do not do much end game. That being said there are also a fair number of people that do speak up and agree with me. Idea is not extremely hard to grasp... Beat harder stuffs get better gearz??? Progress through a game and keep getting better gearz? What a crazy idea!?! Most of the population would like to just go spend a bit of gold for some of the best gear possible, and not have to do anything whatsoever to earn it. Yea, that logic for the win!

I read the posts. I disagreed with the posts. I noticed that the posts do not contain answers for the concerns I raised as questions above. Questions that you have continued to fail to answer.

Referring to previous posts when those posts have already been shown to be insufficient isn't providing an argument.

At this point it just looks like you're banging the same drum, and shouting the same things, because have no reasonable answers and just want people to stop pointing out the obvious issues inherent your suggestion.

Kamatsu wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Long story short, not many people do trials... The fact that the majority of people disagree with that idea just goes to show how many people do not do much end game.

You know, funny thing about this - even in the big raiding games, not many people actually did the end-game either. I remember a post made by a WoW dev many years ago where they discussed the reasoning behind working on the LFR system they eventually implemented - They looked at the number of people actually doing end-game content, and found that only around 10% of the player base was even entering any of the end-game raids, and only about 1% were making it to the end-tier raids.

So because so few people were actually experiencing the content they were working hard on making, they brought in the LFR system to encourage more people to even experience the raids. And yes, this did work as more ppl did do the raids, but even with LFR the majority of players do not experience end-game content. How do I know? Well, look at Legion - it's storyline now forces players into doing end-game content if they actually want to finish the main story of the expansion.

So in order to get people to play end-game, since the vast majority do not want to do that, WoW had to 100% force them to do so by tying raids and end-game grinding into the expansions main storyline. lolz. That's how unpopular end-game is.

Similar post's have been seen by other MMO raiding game dev's - that only a extremely small % of their player base actually does any end-game content.

So the question is - why should ZOS spend money to change a game that's aimed at casuals, that gives access to everything to everyone, that attracts ppl after the lore, story & questing...to a game that's aimed at gear treadmill progression raiders & PvP'ers, that would then restrict content from the vast majority of the player base, as well as lead to more and more demands from the end-game players for more raids / PvP equivalents, more higher tiered gears, more exclusive content only available to them, etc ?

Motherball wrote: »

“Earn it” by whose standards? If I spend twice as much time playing the game, but all I do is fish, how does that make my time less valid than someone who pushes 4 other buttons and avoids red stuff?

Tannus15 wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I don't understand why you're asking for crafted sets to be nerfed instead of trial sets to be buffed.

Mind you everyone already acknowledges that stamina trial sets are pretty much BiS anyway, so half your argument is already falling apart.

So lets cut to the chase.
Magicka DPS sets in trials need buffing.

that's what you're after and I doubt anyone would be arguing with you if you weren't going about it so obnoxiously.

The post is asking for both, either or. End game sets being buffed, or crafted sets going down a bit. First off, stamina trials sets are not BIS... I am not sure who you are running with, but nightmothers and hundings play very large roles in top scores currently. Secondly, this is not about just dps roles. So even if your argument was correct, which it isn't, it would be quite far away from "half" of my argument. This thread is about everything in the game, pvp and pve builds...

I will now acknowledge your saltiness towards your magicka dps. 3.5 years this game has been live, 4 of those patches stamina dps toons were "allowed" to go on competitive score runs. Earlier this year world record scores were held by 8 mag sorc dps runs... Currently, end game raiding is seeing around a half and half ratio. 4 of each mag and stam dps. The majority of the raiding community is in love with the current balance, and it has never been in a better spot. The magicka only gear is not the problem, adjusting that will ruin balance between mag and stam. If you would like to see magplars and mag dks do more damage, go make a thread about it. Please, just do not try to pursue another magicka dps only environment, its disgusting.

Speaking of PVE only, because I don't know the PVP meta.

I'm not pursuing anything of the sort. you're missing my point. None of the magicka dps sets in trials are desired. that's the only point I'm making there.

It's also fair to say that none of the tanking sets in trials are desired and only healing mage is any good for healing.

hundings and TFS is pretty much the go to for stam dps. Yes, you want night mothers, and you probably want sunderflame, but neither are BiS, it's just good to have "someone" using them in the trial group. the slight dps loss on 1 player is more than made up by the increase in dps for everyone else.

You CAN swap hundings out for anything with decent weapon damage in the same way you can replace TFS with Spriggans. It's not BiS, but who cares, it's good enough. If you can get 35k dps with TFS & hundings, you're not going to drop below 32K by using alternate stam dps sets.

Tank sets are easily in the worst place across the board. There are no BiS tanking setups (main or offtank) which use crafted sets OR trial sets.
As someone else pointed out, the closest there is to this is Alkosh, which is not intended to be a tanking set.

I think it's worth pointing out that tanking crafted sets suck and that doesn't "help" make anything more rewarding or interesting about trials. Looking for a nerf to the few crafted sets that are good won't magically make people feel "rewarded" for doing trials suddenly if the trials sets are still rubbish.

Motherball wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

“Earn it” by whose standards? If I spend twice as much time playing the game, but all I do is fish, how does that make my time less valid than someone who pushes 4 other buttons and avoids red stuff?

Lol, thank you. You are putting an emphasis on my point. In all honesty, you should be getting better gear for improving your fishing ability. Do you know why? Because it is logical. If you spend all your time fishing, you should get better gear to improve that aspect of the game. That is how progression through video games usually works. Would it make much sense for you to have access to some of the best gear in the game relating to pve or pvp when all you do is fish? Lawl.

Raiding doesnt cut your access to fishing though. I may know more about bait and where to find certain fish, but you are able to access that content, no special fishing pole required. You still need bait, but that is easily accessible to everyone as well.

Your logic is based in opinion, which is based on the way gear has been dealt with in the past by older mmorpgs. Exclusivity in multiplayer games is bad and illogical in my opinion. And its nice to see some companies move away from it so as to include as many players as possible in as much of the content as possible, for what is logical about spending time and resources on content that such a small percentage of players can access and enjoy? Why promote it?

Why cater to players who will only complain as soon as another player has the same weapon or outfit as them? I’m already going to suffer mechanically going into raids for the first time. Wouldnt it be more logical to give brand new raiders a stat boost, rather than having them not even allowed inside because their dps is 2000 less than is required? A good player should be judged on their knowledge and ability, not their gear. Would you prefer access to hundreds of players, or just one or two when trying to form a group?