Zbigb4life wrote: »Not everyone wants to participate in end-game pve. There is no need in difference between crafted and dropped sets.
Zbigb4life wrote: »Not everyone wants to participate in end-game pve. There is no need in difference between crafted and dropped sets.
Lol'd!!
Basically what you're saying here is, "I shouldn't have to play the game if I don't want to, but I still play the game anyway, so I deserve all the best gear without having to work for it."
Your logic FTW!!
BTW, I've always disagreed with trial sets being bad but from the time I've been playing they've never been good, so I haven't spent much time farming them, though I do have pieces from each set and some complete sets but they never see use.
Alternatively, dungeon sets are good, and are often used in PvP and take comparable amounts of time to farm.
BrightOblivion wrote: »In all seriousness, and ire aside, I could not disagree with this idea more. If crafted sets were significantly weaker across the board, why even bother having them in the game? They're just taking up space.
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Crafted gear should be BIS. Some of us have spent a lot of time researching every trait and style. So why should they not be BIS? Not that they are now anyway, but they should be.
I absolutely think that the best gear in game should be put behind the hardest content in game or GTFO scrubs you don't deserve it.
Crafters who spend months upon months researching to get the full nine traits are so terribad when they could have just been grinding dungeons and raids. Getting crafted gear is so easy!
Not just the crafted gear but all those weapons people chase in a solo arena should be put in raids. And let's not stop there - let's make then 24 player raids.. or 50 player! Yes, 50.. with such complex mechanics that only the best of the best of the best with flawless rotations and sub-20ping (sorry Oceanics, you guys suck too much to have good stuff) can ever possibly hope to attain them.
And definitely every single activity should have a different achievement tied to it before you can even be allowed to try and get gear for it.
Yep, winning strategy to gate stuff right there. ZOS should totally do it.
disintegr8 wrote: »I am happy with the way it works now, partly because I will probably never complete vMA or any vet trials, partly because I have put a lot of effort getting my characters leveled up in crafting skills.
With the way crafting is set up at the moment, with long research times and the skill points you pour into it, sets that require 7, 8 and 9 trait knowledge should be up there among the best in the game.
If any change is made to genuinely drop the quality of crafted sets, they would have to redesign the way you level the crafted lines up as well as the research times otherwise nobody will bother doing it.
The OP's suggestion is that only dedication to end game content should get you decent gear, meaning that is more important than other aspects of the game. We all enjoy different aspects of the game and nobody should be less deserving of enjoyment than anyone else.
BTW - You could put any of my characters in the absolute BiS gear, with Maelstrom weapons, and I would still be relatively easy to kill in PVP and duels. It is not the gear that makes the player.
disintegr8 wrote: »I am happy with the way it works now, partly because I will probably never complete vMA or any vet trials, partly because I have put a lot of effort getting my characters leveled up in crafting skills.
With the way crafting is set up at the moment, with long research times and the skill points you pour into it, sets that require 7, 8 and 9 trait knowledge should be up there among the best in the game.
If any change is made to genuinely drop the quality of crafted sets, they would have to redesign the way you level the crafted lines up as well as the research times otherwise nobody will bother doing it.
The OP's suggestion is that only dedication to end game content should get you decent gear, meaning that is more important than other aspects of the game. We all enjoy different aspects of the game and nobody should be less deserving of enjoyment than anyone else.
BTW - You could put any of my characters in the absolute BiS gear, with Maelstrom weapons, and I would still be relatively easy to kill in PVP and duels. It is not the gear that makes the player.
Crafted gear should be used as a stepping stone for doing end game pvp or pve content. Once in said content, you should be upgrading to higher tier gear sets for both pve and pvp. I am not saying that crafted gear should be horrible and useless, but it should be a bit lower of caliber compared to stuff achieved at the end game level.
Crafted gear would still be decent if it was "a bit lower of caliber" compared to the best possible gear. Its not like it would be trash or unusable in any way shape or form.
disintegr8 wrote: »I am happy with the way it works now, partly because I will probably never complete vMA or any vet trials, partly because I have put a lot of effort getting my characters leveled up in crafting skills.
With the way crafting is set up at the moment, with long research times and the skill points you pour into it, sets that require 7, 8 and 9 trait knowledge should be up there among the best in the game.
If any change is made to genuinely drop the quality of crafted sets, they would have to redesign the way you level the crafted lines up as well as the research times otherwise nobody will bother doing it.
The OP's suggestion is that only dedication to end game content should get you decent gear, meaning that is more important than other aspects of the game. We all enjoy different aspects of the game and nobody should be less deserving of enjoyment than anyone else.
BTW - You could put any of my characters in the absolute BiS gear, with Maelstrom weapons, and I would still be relatively easy to kill in PVP and duels. It is not the gear that makes the player.
Crafted gear should be used as a stepping stone for doing end game pvp or pve content. Once in said content, you should be upgrading to higher tier gear sets for both pve and pvp. I am not saying that crafted gear should be horrible and useless, but it should be a bit lower of caliber compared to stuff achieved at the end game level.
Crafted gear would still be decent if it was "a bit lower of caliber" compared to the best possible gear. Its not like it would be trash or unusable in any way shape or form.
"Should be used.."?
By what objective standard are you gauging this?
("X other MMO(s) do it that way" isn't an objective standard. A novel approach to a system/mechanic is not automatically in error)
Flawed and Hyperbolic.
Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.
And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?
If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.
There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.
So basically to sum up this thread:
Please turn ESO into a raiding gear treadmill clone of WoW.
Because that is basically what he's asking for - for the game to be turned into a raiding gear treadmill, where when you finish the story you kit out in crafted & dungeon gear, then hit the base game Trials for the next tier of gear. This tier of gear will then kit you out for the current DLC trials... and this gear will get you ready for the next/upcoming Trials, etc.
Oh, and don't forget that to do the higher tier Trials requires your stats to be high enough to do enough dps & hps... so this means you would need the gear from the prior Trials to complete! Because what would be the point if any old Joe Shmoe could kit up in dungeon & crafted gear and complete the latest & hardest Trials? Nope, they'd need to be excluded by dps & hps check's.... to force them into the gear treadmill to aquire each tier of gear to get to the next tier of Trials, so they can grind them for gear to kit out for the next tier of Trials!
In a nutshell: an elitist (or wannabee elitsit) who wants to turn ESO into what WoW used to be like at the prime of it's raiding days, and exclude "casuals" from higher end content and the best gear... so that he & few others will actually have access to it and thus can lord it over everyone that they have the BiS gear that is unreachable, or nearly, so for the common player.
Don't believe me? Look at the complaint: That BiS for many builds includes crafted gear, and crafted gear is 100% accessible to everyone. His solution? Move BiS to be Trial's only, which is not accessible to the majority of players. And yes, Trials are not done by the vast majority of players, and those who do try via PUGS... generally fail a lot.
So his idea would make BiS inaccessible to the majority of players.... and one only has to see the community toxicity that this kind of system brings to see why many, many ppl do not want to see this happen to ESO. Look at end-game WoW raiding community & how toxic it is to most players, look at FFXIV end-game community and see how toxic they are to most other players, etc. Look at any game that has a gear treadmill as it's end-game, and you will see a toxic community that pisses on all the common players, non-raiders, or low-level raider's who try and PUG it.
Flawed and Hyperbolic.
Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.
And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?
If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.
There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.
The argument is about gear that is able to be attained via being sent from another player, being just as strong (if not more in many builds) versus gear that is acquired from running the hardest content in the game... You can try and twist vocabulary around and argue it as a BOP vs BOE topic, but that is exactly what this thread has been about since the start... Your argument is obtaining some of the best gear in the game should be able to be done via BOE, that is fine. My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain. Giving more enjoyment and feelings of successful progression for the people that run the hardest content this game has to offer. I highly doubt it will change, but that is my opinion. Regardless, trash players will always be trash no matter what gear they have. It is rather weird that a vast amount of major aspects of gear obtaining are so ridiculously easy... Please do me a favor, do not accuse me of trying to decrease enjoyment of others when the logical reasoning behind my theory clearly points towards people having more enjoyment of the end game content.
Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? My bad!
Again caps in titel?
And no i like that crafted sets are quite good. Players should be good because they have the skills and not because they got carried by sets. (also i can't really be brother to farm anything in this game anymore- login play alittle logoff)
Zbigb4life wrote: »Not everyone wants to participate in end-game pve. There is no need in difference between crafted and dropped sets.
Lol'd!!
Basically what you're saying here is, "I shouldn't have to play the game if I don't want to, but I still play the game anyway, so I deserve all the best gear without having to work for it."
Your logic FTW!!
BTW, I've always disagreed with trial sets being bad but from the time I've been playing they've never been good, so I haven't spent much time farming them, though I do have pieces from each set and some complete sets but they never see use.
Alternatively, dungeon sets are good, and are often used in PvP and take comparable amounts of time to farm.
@Blanco Couldn't agree more. "Hey I have some gold but I have never even done any sort of trial or end game content before, but I should be able to buy the best gear possible in the game with just gold though!!!" Yea makes a ton of sense..... This thread literally displays how many people out there that really do not run any sort of end game content, and it is quite sad and disappointing to be honest.
Flawed and Hyperbolic.
Hunding's and Julianos are (if memory serves) 6 trait sets. To self craft these (even at the lowest tier) would require time to research those traits for each item you wanted to create and then the time required to level your crafting skills to 50, as well as the skill points invested in the crafting skill lines, not to mention the upgrade materials (and skills) to purple/gold them... after which you have to have the number of CP to actually wear them.
And you imply that it is akin to "within seconds of you first stepping into the game". A little hyperbolic don't you think?
If you are complaining that crafted items are tradeable then you are engaging in an argument about BoP vs BoE not the creation method or utility itself.
There is a progression from weak to strong in this game. It just allows for more than one play style to form the basis of that progression. Stop trying to decrease the enjoyment of others.
The argument is about gear that is able to be attained via being sent from another player, being just as strong (if not more in many builds) versus gear that is acquired from running the hardest content in the game... You can try and twist vocabulary around and argue it as a BOP vs BOE topic, but that is exactly what this thread has been about since the start... Your argument is obtaining some of the best gear in the game should be able to be done via BOE, that is fine. My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain. Giving more enjoyment and feelings of successful progression for the people that run the hardest content this game has to offer. I highly doubt it will change, but that is my opinion. Regardless, trash players will always be trash no matter what gear they have. It is rather weird that a vast amount of major aspects of gear obtaining are so ridiculously easy... Please do me a favor, do not accuse me of trying to decrease enjoyment of others when the logical reasoning behind my theory clearly points towards people having more enjoyment of the end game content.
Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? My bad!
I have highlighted the flaw in your argument. The one you keep making. You are in favour of increasing the enjoyment of the end game content. What proportion of players play the kind of endgame content (VMA, VDSA or Trials) that is likely to drop the kinds of equipment that you seem to be referring to? Because unless that percentage is 100% then decreasing the effectiveness of the crafted gear will impact the players who don't.
Your argument is flawed because you not only consider only one play style worthy... you only consider one play style.
When you can demonstrably prove why decreasing the effectiveness of crafted sets will in no way affect the utility and enjoyment of the players who don't play endgame... then you will have a complete argument.
This suggestion does not focus on just trials... There are many suggestions about pvp gear as well, read it again. Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? You are correct, people that really do not pve or pvp at all should be able to just go to a store and buy the best gear possible. That way everyone can have all the best gear, and doing pvp/pve content will continue to reward nothing but a bit of gold/ap and bragging rights.
This suggestion does not focus on just trials... There are many suggestions about pvp gear as well, read it again. Beat harder things = get better stuffs??? Go to store and buy best stuffs possible??? Crazy!!! How dare I throw such a ridiculous suggestion out... What kind of game gives you better rewards for completing harder content!?!? You are correct, people that really do not pve or pvp at all should be able to just go to a store and buy the best gear possible. That way everyone can have all the best gear, and doing pvp/pve content will continue to reward nothing but a bit of gold/ap and bragging rights.
Amusing attempt at redirection, since you obviously can't deny that your suggestion is exactly what I said it is:
An elitist wanting to lock the top gear from the common player, and force people into tiered grinding of harder and harder content (whether it's PvE or PvP) if they want the best gear. A suggestion that knows only a vast minority of players will ever even attempt such a gear treadmill grind, and thus allow you & the few to lord it over everyone else that you have the best gear that they can't get.
In fact, to quote you from another post:
"My argument is that BOE gear should be a stepping stone into players running end game content. Once in said content (whether it be pve or pvp) there should be new, higher tiered gear, that players can obtain."
So exactly what I said - an elitist whose sad that he can't be an elitist in ESO since everyone has access to some/most/all (depending on class & build) of the BiS gear available, and wants it to be changed.
As for a game that works like ESO? Guild wars 2 did so for it's base game, and it was extremely successful at it (till they ruined the game by listening to ppl like you who demanded raids, tiered gear, harder content, forced grouping, etc... and drove players away massively due to this). Every player could easily get 'exotic' gear, which was the 2nd best gear statistically.. and Ascended gear was only better slightly, useful only in 1 section of the game, and could be bought off the store or made by grinding craft skills up. Yes, the best gear was crafted.
And fact is ZOS would be financially stupid to listen to you. Players like you who desire tiered raiding gear treadmills (whether PvP or PvE) are in the vast minority of players, and the least likely to purchase things on the crown store. So spending money & time catering to you would be a loss to them - as ANet found out the hard way, after suffering a 67% loss in income after the launch of the hardcore raider group-only friendly HoT expansion.
OP has a point.
It doesn't take anything to obtain crafted sets, and making crafted set pieces is not an accomplishment.
Obtaining rare drops is an accomplishment, whether you will want to admit it or not.
Obtaining dropped gear pieces is much harder than simply crafting them, so it does make sense for them to be better, and I would agree that crafted gear is currently too prevalent in the meta. A 50/50 ratio of crafted vs dropped is not correct, you people just always have to have everything be equal when really that isn't the way things work.
I am fine with seeing maybe 1-2 crafted sets in the meta, but no more than that.