Why do people want EotS nerfed?

IAVITNI · October 2017

Now, I know what you're thinking. This is a troll post. Honestly, it's not.

1v1 this ultimate is hardly BiS, in fact, I'd argue that no duelist will opt to use it and only a small amount of solo players will use it. Small scale differs slightly as this is intended to be a zerg buster. So assuming that the discontent for this ability stems from its extensive zerg use, how does nerfing EotS nerf these large ball groups?

Arguably, this is in fact a buff to these large co-ordinated groups. 12% damage lost means that stacking on crown is even more affective than before, opening up the possibility for these groups to drop a healer and bring in another bomber. Time for some napkin math:

Lets assume the average group runs 5 bombers.
That's 60% dps loss if all 5 bomb at once, 48% for a 4 man bomb->36%->24%->12%

Now lets factor in the extra bomber due to less need for a healer.
Again, (napkin math) we can equate this to 88% more damage to bombs.
So a what was previously a 5 man bomb now does 28% more damage, 4' man does 40% more damage->52%->64%->72%

The best way to kill a zerg is to bomb it, and now this method is less effective. This is just my thought process, and I'm curious as to what the rest of you think.

*Disclaimer*-The above math is simply to illustrate the concept. The numbers will be significantly higher than reality but the fundamental concept still holds true.

TL;DR
ELI5 as to how nerfing destro ultimates is a good thing

ToRelax · October 2017

It's unblockable heavy AoE damage in a wide radius. It's either too strong or too weak. If you bring up "zerg busting", then I say it was more fun with a wider variety of ultimates being used.

Vapirko · October 2017

Its obvious why we wanted it nerfed, its also obvious that the way it was nerfed is going to be fairly ineffective.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2017

Co-ordinated negate + snares kills large organised groups more so than destro ult and requires more skill imo. If destro ult is stronger than necessary people can still use it effectively on tanky builds or run more healers.

Main thing is build diversity though. Damage ultimates other than destro ult should be useful in PvP. If zergs are a problem then make other balance changes & gameplay improvements to make the game less zergy. Simply adding an overpowered ultimate to the game isn't a good way to combat zerging imo.

Taonnor · October 2017

IAVITNI wrote: »

...Arguably, this is in fact a buff to these large co-ordinated groups. 12% damage lost means that stacking on crown is even more affective than before, opening up the possibility for these groups to drop a healer and bring in another bomber....

This is what i say too. The hole 3.2.x Patch with all Buffs/Nervs is a pure Zerg Patch. We will get back in times where the ball groups will be greater and the lag will be going harder again. And the inbalance on not full campaigns will be weight much more. So in balance view the Patch is very bad for PvP (In my eyes).

I play and lead a bomb / ball group. Our current optimum group size is around 12 peoples. With this patch we need more peoples - I think around 16-18 agian - to bomb a zerg effectively.

Personally i love to play bomb group, but i want an optimum size of around 8-10 peoples. In my eyes we need some tweaks to get "default" group size to this. For example removing aoe caps, more aoe cc like aoe disorienting and all aoe heals group only.

IlCanis_LupuslI · October 2017

IAVITNI wrote: »

Now, I know what you're thinking. This is a troll post. Honestly, it's not.

1v1 this ultimate is hardly BiS, in fact, I'd argue that no duelist will opt to use it and only a small amount of solo players will use it. Small scale differs slightly as this is intended to be a zerg buster. So assuming that the discontent for this ability stems from its extensive zerg use, how does nerfing EotS nerf these large ball groups?

Arguably, this is in fact a buff to these large co-ordinated groups. 12% damage lost means that stacking on crown is even more affective than before, opening up the possibility for these groups to drop a healer and bring in another bomber. Time for some napkin math:

Lets assume the average group runs 5 bombers.
That's 60% dps loss if all 5 bomb at once, 48% for a 4 man bomb->36%->24%->12%

Now lets factor in the extra bomber due to less need for a healer.
Again, (napkin math) we can equate this to 88% more damage to bombs.
So a what was previously a 5 man bomb now does 28% more damage, 4' man does 40% more damage->52%->64%->72%

The best way to kill a zerg is to bomb it, and now this method is less effective. This is just my thought process, and I'm curious as to what the rest of you think.

*Disclaimer*-The above math is simply to illustrate the concept. The numbers will be significantly higher than reality but the fundamental concept still holds true.

TL;DR
ELI5 as to how nerfing destro ultimates is a good thing

@IAVITNI
Problem is that Zergs use it to swamp smaller Groups in aoes. Its not a counter to Zergs it makes them Stronger

Rohamad_Ali · October 2017

People want to live forever in PVP . They will never be happy . -Fin

Weps · October 2017

I didn't want it nerfed to be honest, I just wanted it reworked.
Once again, plenty of people gave good solutions.

My top two picks:
- Make its damage scale based on how many enemies hit;
- Make it a real Eye of the Storm, so that will give you strategic counterplay and will force the caster to use it under certain circumstances.

But now, just a blatant useless percentage nerf.
Still strong no matter what.

Feanor · October 2017

I think it's really ironic. ZOS knows their servers can't handle large scale fights, they introduce several things to incentivize spreading out, only to completely turn around and promote large groups patch by patch. It doesn't make much sense.

Checkmath · October 2017

eye of the storm nerf is not a buff to ball groups. the counter for those groups are a combination of negate, immobilization or stunning and some good burst damage...or a bigger ballgroup.
this nerf is very much appreciated by most of pvp players, since its a direct weakening those "hated" ballgroups. also zergs will suffeer a bit from it and other ultimates or combos slowly get in line with eye of the storm, deto and sap essence.
no ballgroup will run with one more bomber instead of a healer because of this change, they will just add 2 bombers and one healer into the group to make up the damage. on PC EU sotha sil smaller ballgroups of 8 people already got together with other ballgroups to form 15+ men groups to be effective again. i dont mind that too much.
so actually, nerf is appreciated by most players and its a step into the right direction.
btw, we shouldnt even start about performance and servers....that would be just depressing....looking at the huge lag fest zergs and ballgroups cause in cyro.

Dasovaruilos · October 2017

The problem is everyone that complains about the nerf talks as if zergs themselves never used it. A zerg with 5-6 destro ultis is impossible to counter anyway, even if the other group has destros too.

Cyrodiil became a bore ever since EotS was introduced. Good and bad groups alike, big or small, all eventually converged to becoming bombing groups with Negates, Roots/Talons, Destro.

And then most fights became simply "Destro bomb, retreat to build ulti, destro ulti bomb". A lot of people don't fight anymore. They just build ulti and bomb.

I really miss those epic 5x5, 6x6 fights in gates and other places that lasted a couple of minutes, but that were actually fights, with people being aggressive, actually in active combat all the time.

Now, if 2 groups of 5 meet, most likely they will like both be hiding in the corner light attacking to built ulti, will try to wipe the other for 7-8 seconds during the destro duration and then go back to hiding to build ulti. Rinse and repeat.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2017

CalmFury wrote: »

The problem is everyone that complains about the nerf talks as if zergs themselves never used it. A zerg with 5-6 destro ultis is impossible to counter anyway, even if the other group has destros too.

Not true

Dasovaruilos · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

CalmFury wrote: »

The problem is everyone that complains about the nerf talks as if zergs themselves never used it. A zerg with 5-6 destro ultis is impossible to counter anyway, even if the other group has destros too.

Not true

Maybe "impossible" was the wrong word... But when you have 30-40 people coming at you with destro ultis, you don't even have time to recover from one before the next is already on you.

Taonnor · October 2017

CalmFury wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

CalmFury wrote: »

The problem is everyone that complains about the nerf talks as if zergs themselves never used it. A zerg with 5-6 destro ultis is impossible to counter anyway, even if the other group has destros too.

Not true

Maybe "impossible" was the wrong word... But when you have 30-40 people coming at you with destro ultis, you don't even have time to recover from one before the next is already on you.

Thats not true. We mostly fight 12vs40 and we can stay alive against destro ultis. You only must counter it with heal ulti of templar or shield/dodge out.

Xvorg · October 2017

What does moar dmg in those ball groups are not not the EOTS spammers, which are easily avoidable, but the NBs spamming fear. The simply shut you down enough time for the EOTS bombing being succesful.

You can even do it with bats and fear, and the effect would be quite similar.

BaylorCorvette · October 2017

Let my Sorc negate EotS and then I'll be OK with this ulti.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2017

TBH my biggest issue with it is that it's unblockable and frequently doesn't animate clearly.

I have it slotted at the moment. I'm hoping this nerf makes it worth unslotting.

Zer0oo · October 2017

It is one of the most expensive ulti so it need to be strong and it has a counter get the f*** out of it, it is only a problem when ppl spam gap closer on you. If they continue to nerf its damage it will be only useful for big gprs who have enough ppl to stack it see for example proxi det.

Just make it that you can no longer use gap closer or any other mobility skill(streak, mist form, speed buff...) and increase its damage the closer you are to the caster. It would be a strong ulti especial if you are surrounded by enemies but it has a nice counter since there is a chance to get out of the range of the ulti.

Taonnor · October 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

You can even do it with bats and fear, and the effect would be quite similar.

The bats dmg is laughable. Its only around 50% of EoTS dmg per Tick. On no CP the Tick dmg is around 1k-2k. Easy healed by HoT's. So no. You cannot do the same with bats and fear.

Joy_Division · October 2017

Because a lot of people perceive it to be over-powered.

And it outshines the majority of AoE ultimates in the game. I think this is mostly because except for Negate those expensive ultimates aren't very good or versatile, but it is what it is.

ssewallb14_ESO · October 2017

It's a double edged sword really. On one hand it dumbs down raid vs raid PvP immensely, on the other hand it's the best tool this game has ever had for combating the tactic of stacking disorganized numbers to take advantage of AOE caps and server performance.

I'm biased as mainly a small-scaler these days, but I think EOTS it's a net gain. I'm reminded of the days of Azura being unplayable for endless hours due to unending faction vs faction at Chalman, and although that still happens, a good bomb group can break up the stack and end the fight sooner. I'd honestly rather have that, even if it reduces RvR to largely raid comp and pressing R at the right time.

Dorrino · October 2017

IAVITNI wrote: »

Arguably, this is in fact a buff to these large co-ordinated groups. 12% damage lost means that stacking on crown is even more affective than before, opening up the possibility for these groups to drop a healer and bring in another bomber.

It doesn’t work like this:) If they could afford to bring another ‘bomber’ they would do it already. Since the net damage gain would be even higher than after the nerf.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Time for some napkin math:

Lets assume the average group runs 5 bombers.
That's 60% dps loss if all 5 bomb at once, 48% for a 4 man bomb->36%->24%->12%

Math doesn’t work like this:)

12% dps loss stays 12% dps loss not matter how many ‘bombers’ you got.

So for 5 ‘bombs’ the damage will be 12% lower than before the patch. Just like for a single ‘bomber’.

Dreyloch · October 2017

Why do people want EotS nerfed?

Because bads can't figure out their surroundings and gtfo of the way. Plain and simple.

IAVITNI · October 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Arguably, this is in fact a buff to these large co-ordinated groups. 12% damage lost means that stacking on crown is even more affective than before, opening up the possibility for these groups to drop a healer and bring in another bomber.

It doesn’t work like this:) If they could afford to bring another ‘bomber’ they would do it already. Since the net damage gain would be even higher than after the nerf.

I mean, it kind of does. Never said it was optimal, but it becomes a stronger option.

Dorrino wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Time for some napkin math:

Lets assume the average group runs 5 bombers.
That's 60% dps loss if all 5 bomb at once, 48% for a 4 man bomb->36%->24%->12%

Math doesn’t work like this:)

12% dps loss stays 12% dps loss not matter how many ‘bombers’ you got.

So for 5 ‘bombs’ the damage will be 12% lower than before the patch. Just like for a single ‘bomber’.

hehe I know. The example was really just to illustrate a point. Consider my example the Bohr Rutherford diagram of group bomber dps.

I just wanted to see the kind of reaction I would get from the forums regarding this change. Pleasantly surprised.

Xsorus · October 2017

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a double edged sword really. On one hand it dumbs down raid vs raid PvP immensely, on the other hand it's the best tool this game has ever had for combating the tactic of stacking disorganized numbers to take advantage of AOE caps and server performance.

I'm biased as mainly a small-scaler these days, but I think EOTS it's a net gain. I'm reminded of the days of Azura being unplayable for endless hours due to unending faction vs faction at Chalman, and although that still happens, a good bomb group can break up the stack and end the fight sooner. I'd honestly rather have that, even if it reduces RvR to largely raid comp and pressing R at the right time.

Incorrect, pre nerf prox det and VD were better for stopping ball groups then anything else.

You actually had people somewhat spreading during that time for fear of being killed.

ToRelax · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a double edged sword really. On one hand it dumbs down raid vs raid PvP immensely, on the other hand it's the best tool this game has ever had for combating the tactic of stacking disorganized numbers to take advantage of AOE caps and server performance.

I'm biased as mainly a small-scaler these days, but I think EOTS it's a net gain. I'm reminded of the days of Azura being unplayable for endless hours due to unending faction vs faction at Chalman, and although that still happens, a good bomb group can break up the stack and end the fight sooner. I'd honestly rather have that, even if it reduces RvR to largely raid comp and pressing R at the right time.

Incorrect, pre nerf prox det and VD were better for stopping ball groups then anything else.

You actually had people somewhat spreading during that time for fear of being killed.

It's a bit misleading to refer it as "pre nerf" I think. It didn't work as well post Imperial City mainly due to battle spirit.

Mettaricana · October 2017

I kinda wish they would stop kidding themselves and just make all skills get tweaks while in cyrodiil and make it all part of battle spirit and just stop screwing over pve just because pve cried so hard just seperate everything already..

SaintSubwayy · October 2017

just make it block and dodgeable and it should be fine.
Maybe make it that you cannot use gapclosers more than once per activation of the ult.

pieratsos · October 2017

Mettaricana wrote: »

I kinda wish they would stop kidding themselves and just make all skills get tweaks while in cyrodiil and make it all part of battle spirit and just stop screwing over pve just because pve cried so hard just seperate everything already..

If you are using the base skill or the EOTS morph you are not getting screwed because of PVP. You get screwed because of ur poor choices.

ssewallb14_ESO · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a double edged sword really. On one hand it dumbs down raid vs raid PvP immensely, on the other hand it's the best tool this game has ever had for combating the tactic of stacking disorganized numbers to take advantage of AOE caps and server performance.

I'm biased as mainly a small-scaler these days, but I think EOTS it's a net gain. I'm reminded of the days of Azura being unplayable for endless hours due to unending faction vs faction at Chalman, and although that still happens, a good bomb group can break up the stack and end the fight sooner. I'd honestly rather have that, even if it reduces RvR to largely raid comp and pressing R at the right time.

Incorrect, pre nerf prox det and VD were better for stopping ball groups then anything else.

You actually had people somewhat spreading during that time for fear of being killed.

I wasn't really talking about a solo player hitting "ball groups," but rather the 60-100 player faction stacks that happen on the emp ring. These tend to be spread out and disorganized anyway. Even if you got a good prox+tether bomb on a chunk of them the other 40 can just res. The mobility of eye stacks is better for clearing these up, as they have greater range and are very easy to coordinate with a group of players, which can then continue to clear up the stack after taking out a chunk of them with their bomb, along with any other defenders.

WuffyCerulei · October 2017

As long as they don't touch Elemental Rage, EotS can be nerfed.