Clever Alchemist in PTS 3.2.3

Teeba_Shei · October 2017

Can we just fix clever alchemist a different way without destroying its use for people that were using it normally without exploiting?

Azurya · October 2017

Let´s fix it this way: If you change gear, the buff is gone and that is it!
No 5 parts CA, no buff, easy as it is!

Jake1576 · October 2017

Azurya wrote: »

Let´s fix it this way: If you change gear, the buff is gone and that is it!
No 5 parts CA, no buff, easy as it is!

Sounds easy enough to me unfortunately I think suggestions are falling on closed ears tho they seem like they would rather ruin the set rather then take suggestions I hope I'm wrong tho

BohnT · October 2017

Jake1576 wrote: »

I'm not sure but there has to be a way around fixing it so people can still use it while in stealth I can't believe you guys admitted your basically nerfing it cause addons for the PC version and making us console players pay for something that doesn't even affect us it's like you guys don't even care anymore about hiding the fact you all don't know what your doing anymore

It was also done to nerf gankers so stop spreading false information

BohnT · October 2017

Azurya wrote: »

Let´s fix it this way: If you change gear, the buff is gone and that is it!
No 5 parts CA, no buff, easy as it is!

That would destroy the set for anyone using it to its full advantage. Alchemist is the best backbar set for damage you can get and this change would kill it instantly for: bombers, most gankers and almost any player running it on non gank build.
The change is good stop crying that you have to change the set or get the skill to use the potion after ambush or heavy Bow attack.

Mondini · October 2017

mb10 wrote: »

In years from now, we'll speak of the time NBs had alchemist, selene and viper to gank with LOL

Get a load of this guy, implying that the game has multiple years left

Jake1576 · October 2017

BohnT wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

I'm not sure but there has to be a way around fixing it so people can still use it while in stealth I can't believe you guys admitted your basically nerfing it cause addons for the PC version and making us console players pay for something that doesn't even affect us it's like you guys don't even care anymore about hiding the fact you all don't know what your doing anymore

It was also done to nerf gankers so stop spreading false information

What I know it was done to nerf gankers that's why I made a post about it originally being the reason behind the nerf

sluice · October 2017

I think another lazy and better change can be done for this issue.
Just make it so when Clever is proc, it puts your character "in Combat", this way it won't be possible to change gear until you are out of combat anymore. Sounds simple enough?

I'm far from a ganker, but often, I'll still often proc clever alchemist before entering a fight. What made this set great for me was to be able to

Back bar it
Be 100% in control of when you proc it.

Now, I would argue that the second point isn't complete true. Therefore, we might as well chose another RNG damage set such as Seventh, Ravager, Fury.. Or just a simple damage set like Hunding's or Spriggan.

Lord_Eomer · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@HeroOfNone I understand the issue is anti-exploit but this change has a direct effect on console players where we don't have access to such add-ons to swap gear. I don't believe Zos will implement this change solely for PC and us console players still receive this nerf. It's a shame and it would be great if Zos handled the matter differently.

This change will be on all platforms once the update goes live, yes. Even though this was most commonly seen on PC due to addon usage, it could technically be done on console too (though it'd be difficult to pull off). We can't have abilities doing different things on different servers, though.

In PC this is wide use exploit using Add-On and this change is needed to fix exploiting this set!

Qbiken · October 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@HeroOfNone I understand the issue is anti-exploit but this change has a direct effect on console players where we don't have access to such add-ons to swap gear. I don't believe Zos will implement this change solely for PC and us console players still receive this nerf. It's a shame and it would be great if Zos handled the matter differently.

This change will be on all platforms once the update goes live, yes. Even though this was most commonly seen on PC due to addon usage, it could technically be done on console too (though it'd be difficult to pull off). We can't have abilities doing different things on different servers, though.

In PC this is wide use exploit using Add-On and this change is needed to fix exploiting this set!

I don´t know what you guys think but balance changes due to exploiting with add-ons feels very weird to me......

Myerscod · October 2017

Another example where the minority of selfish players who exploit the game have forced ZOS into making a change to an interesting gameplay style.

What's next? All buffs can only be activated whilst in combat?

Teeba_Shei · October 2017

There are numerous ways to fixing this without nerfing the set itself.

sluice · October 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@HeroOfNone I understand the issue is anti-exploit but this change has a direct effect on console players where we don't have access to such add-ons to swap gear. I don't believe Zos will implement this change solely for PC and us console players still receive this nerf. It's a shame and it would be great if Zos handled the matter differently.

This change will be on all platforms once the update goes live, yes. Even though this was most commonly seen on PC due to addon usage, it could technically be done on console too (though it'd be difficult to pull off). We can't have abilities doing different things on different servers, though.

In PC this is wide use exploit using Add-On and this change is needed to fix exploiting this set!

There are other ways to fix this so it isn't exploited...

pieratsos · October 2017

The changes were made to address exploiting AND one shots by buffing before combat. They literally said that they want the set to be used strategically mid combat and not to one shot unaware people.

So you can all stop this mumbo-jumbo bs about getting nerfed because of the addon, lazy fixes etc. You are getting nerfed because you are doing something that they dont want you to do. Period.

CromulentForumID · October 2017

Synapsis123 wrote: »

The simple solution is if you change gear(and probably skills as well) you lose all your buffs. It doesn't make any sense to add code just for this set when you'll have to do the same for all the other sets eventually.

Is it the simple solution, though? We really don't know how the game is coded. This may have been the best they could do without a ton of work.

I don't really like the change, but we should be a little careful about suggesting things are simple when we haven't seen the code.

sluice · October 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

The changes were made to address exploiting AND one shots by buffing before combat. They literally said that they want the set to be used strategically mid combat and not to one shot unaware people.

So you can all stop this mumbo-jumbo bs about getting nerfed because of the addon, lazy fixes etc. You are getting nerfed because you are doing something that they dont want you to do. Period.

Thanks for generalizing. I'm sure the majority of people were pulling that crap! Not!

If you can't agree that this change was lazy, you are really mind closed and there is really no point in arguing with you.

There are some great solution suggested in this thread.

Jake1576 · October 2017

Reconsider this change zos

pieratsos · October 2017

sluice wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The changes were made to address exploiting AND one shots by buffing before combat. They literally said that they want the set to be used strategically mid combat and not to one shot unaware people.

So you can all stop this mumbo-jumbo bs about getting nerfed because of the addon, lazy fixes etc. You are getting nerfed because you are doing something that they dont want you to do. Period.

Thanks for generalizing. I'm sure the majority of people were pulling that crap! Not!

If you can't agree that this change was lazy, you are really mind closed and there is really no point in arguing with you.

There are some great solution suggested in this thread.

Are you seriously that dumb or do you just pretend to be?
They literally said that they dont want the set to be used for one shot ganks and people are complaining why the set wont be good for one shot ganks and called it a lazy. It wont be good for one shot ganks because thats the [snip] point.

The solutions suggested are solutions to address exploiting but leave the set good for ganking. Problem is they dont want the set to be used for ganking so those solutions arent great. And if u still cant realise that then u are the one who is close minded and there is no point arguing with you.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Narvuntien · October 2017

If they are trying to remove ganking as a playstyle why are there so many ganking sets?
Why do nightblades even exist?

Deal bonus damage out of stealth
Cloak always crits
Extra stealth movement speed
Harder to see while invisable.

Now I am using Clever alchemist instead of these sets because Health bonuses and no stats wasted on crit (which I don't need if cloak always crits) and of course the how big the buff is itself.. all I want is weapon damage.

They didn't nerf the buff they prevented the set from working that is why it is wrong. Infact it is clear the set isn't broken on its own the issue is people switching to get a different set of stats.

If they don't want ganking as a play style to exist they will drive a lot of people away from PVP.

Myerscod · October 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The changes were made to address exploiting AND one shots by buffing before combat. They literally said that they want the set to be used strategically mid combat and not to one shot unaware people.

So you can all stop this mumbo-jumbo bs about getting nerfed because of the addon, lazy fixes etc. You are getting nerfed because you are doing something that they dont want you to do. Period.

Thanks for generalizing. I'm sure the majority of people were pulling that crap! Not!

If you can't agree that this change was lazy, you are really mind closed and there is really no point in arguing with you.

There are some great solution suggested in this thread.

Are you seriously that dumb or do you just pretend to be?
They literally said that they dont want the set to be used for one shot ganks and people are complaining why the set wont be good for one shot ganks and called it a lazy. It wont be good for one shot ganks because thats the [snip] point.

The solutions suggested are solutions to address exploiting but leave the set good for ganking. Problem is they dont want the set to be used for ganking so those solutions arent great. And if u still cant realise that then u are the one who is close minded and there is no point arguing with you.

There's no need for name calling now is there. It's pretty clear ZOS's decision to change this set is due to the exploit but because they cant/won't fix the exploit, they have decided to mask this by saying they want to get rid of the gank style gameplay.

Something that would probably work if their game age audience was 10.

[Edited for quote]

Sneaky-Snurr · October 2017

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

Feanor · October 2017

I still don’t know why it must be possible to pre-buff in stealth so you can hit with 7k+ weapon damage out of nowhere. A lot of people seem to enjoy having an opponent who doesn’t fight back. Weird.

pieratsos · October 2017

Myerscod wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

sluice wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The changes were made to address exploiting AND one shots by buffing before combat. They literally said that they want the set to be used strategically mid combat and not to one shot unaware people.

So you can all stop this mumbo-jumbo bs about getting nerfed because of the addon, lazy fixes etc. You are getting nerfed because you are doing something that they dont want you to do. Period.

Thanks for generalizing. I'm sure the majority of people were pulling that crap! Not!

If you can't agree that this change was lazy, you are really mind closed and there is really no point in arguing with you.

There are some great solution suggested in this thread.

Are you seriously that dumb or do you just pretend to be?
They literally said that they dont want the set to be used for one shot ganks and people are complaining why the set wont be good for one shot ganks and called it a lazy. It wont be good for one shot ganks because thats the [snip] point.

The solutions suggested are solutions to address exploiting but leave the set good for ganking. Problem is they dont want the set to be used for ganking so those solutions arent great. And if u still cant realise that then u are the one who is close minded and there is no point arguing with you.

There's no need for name calling now is there. It's pretty clear ZOS's decision to change this set is due to the exploit but because they cant/won't fix the exploit, they have decided to mask this by saying they want to get rid of the gank style gameplay.

Something that would probably work if their game age audience was 10.

No, its not prety clear that this is what happened because thats not something outlandish or weird to try to fix. But for people is so convenient to believe that this is what happened just so they have something to base their "dont nerf my playstyle" argument on.

And even if that is the only reason that is getting nerfed, its still a good thing. I am sorry but this change promotes skilled gameplay no matter how you see it. And no, the ganking playstyle isnt dead. If people can gank only because of alchemist then its because they are not that good. Good NBs can one shot people with open world builds. Let alone ganking builds. And alchemist is still perfectly viable as a ganking set. Just needs more skill.

[Edited for quote]

pieratsos · October 2017

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

Master_Kas · October 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

Well most of the time "fight back" means "hold block until allies arrive" and you get swarmed.

They really should've just made it so you are in combat when using CA bonus, then you could backbar it as usual aswell while fixing the exploit. QQ

pieratsos · October 2017

Narvuntien wrote: »

If they are trying to remove ganking as a playstyle why are there so many ganking sets?
Why do nightblades even exist?

Deal bonus damage out of stealth
Cloak always crits
Extra stealth movement speed
Harder to see while invisable.

Now I am using Clever alchemist instead of these sets because Health bonuses and no stats wasted on crit (which I don't need if cloak always crits) and of course the how big the buff is itself.. all I want is weapon damage.

They didn't nerf the buff they prevented the set from working that is why it is wrong. Infact it is clear the set isn't broken on its own the issue is people switching to get a different set of stats.

If they don't want ganking as a play style to exist they will drive a lot of people away from PVP.

If this set is the only way for you to gank people then im sorry but the issue is with you and not with this change. Ganking is perfectly viable without alchemist. And you can still use alchemist to gank people. Just have to use it more strategically.

pieratsos · October 2017

Master_Kas wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

Well most of the time "fight back" means "hold block until allies arrive" and you get swarmed.

They really should've just made it so you are in combat when using CA bonus, then you could backbar it as usual aswell while fixing the exploit. QQ

So you are saying that the way to fix this stupid tank meta is to make people not being able to fight back. Got it.

You can still backbar the set just fine and use it mid combat. No change at all in that aspect. The only thing it changes is for those who specifically use it to buff up and one shot people. Ironically most gankers are ganking people in zerg fights or Xv1 so i have no idea why they are whining. Just light attack a random person before ganking someone else? QQ indeed

Sneaky-Snurr · October 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

@pieratsos
Oh my, another assumption. Look, I used to run CA and I don't gank. Sometimes it's very beneficial to prebuff yourself with it since not all CA users are gank builds, and no, the majority of CA users aren't gankers too as they only make up the minority.

Apologies for not clarifying tho, I'm from the side that wants ZoS to limit their API so addons like Miat's, dressing room and Wykydd Outfitter wouldn't offer an edge over any other players who don't use addons.
Did you know that the root cause of CA getting this unneeded change is due to said addons I mentioned above? To make matters worse, only a minority of CA users (ie. gankers) use those addons to change gears within half a second after prebuffing with CA, effectively saving them a lot of time before their target is no longer in sight.
See the problem there? The thing that enables them to do that is: ADDONS

CA is perfectly fine as it is and it doesn't need any change/nerf to it. ZoS are just downright lazy and incompetent to find a feasible solution.

Feanor · October 2017

If you don’t gank the change is inconvenient but hardly set breaking @Sneaky-Snurr. And if you do gank ... you only miss out on the weapon damage buff for the opener. Makes it harder, but not impossible.

pieratsos · October 2017

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

@pieratsos
Oh my, another assumption. Look, I used to run CA and I don't gank. Sometimes it's very beneficial to prebuff yourself with it since not all CA users are gank builds, and no, the majority of CA users aren't gankers too as they only make up the minority.

Apologies for not clarifying tho, I'm from the side that wants ZoS to limit their API so addons like Miat's, dressing room and Wykydd Outfitter wouldn't offer an edge over any other players who don't use addons.
Did you know that the root cause of CA getting this unneeded change is due to said addons I mentioned above? To make matters worse, only a minority of CA users (ie. gankers) use those addons to change gears within half a second after prebuffing with CA, effectively saving them a lot of time before their target is no longer in sight.
See the problem there? The thing that enables them to do that is: ADDONS

CA is perfectly fine as it is and it doesn't need any change/nerf to it. ZoS are just downright lazy and incompetent to find a feasible solution.

You are making assumptions here not me. You are assuming that this change happened just because of the exploit and you absolutely refuse to accept that maybe that change was intended as well? I mean that not the first time they are making changes to address ganking is it?

If you are not using it for ganking i have no idea why do you complain about it. I use it too. It changes absolutely nothing for that playstyle. Just light attack someone if you are not in combat. Whats so hard about that?