Clever Alchemist in PTS 3.2.3

Sneaky-Snurr

Feanor wrote: »

If you don’t gank the change is inconvenient but hardly set breaking @Sneaky-Snurr. And if you do gank ... you only miss out on the weapon damage buff for the opener. Makes it harder, but not impossible.

@Feanor
I agree, it's definitely not set breaking but there's a lot of other people who don't gank but prebuff themselves with CA as well.

Like for example (cc: @pieratsos), I used to run a 7-man PvP group that requires all members use CA build that utilises speed + major brutality/intellect pots, so we are always on speed before engaging a zerg which we expect to do the most damage within the first 15 seconds, effectively giving defenders some time to repair walls and whatnot.
That's just a few people who use CA without ganking. Imagine a whole lot of other unique non-ganking playstyles and/or groups would be implicated by this upcoming change.

Master_Kas

pieratsos wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

Well most of the time "fight back" means "hold block until allies arrive" and you get swarmed.

They really should've just made it so you are in combat when using CA bonus, then you could backbar it as usual aswell while fixing the exploit. QQ

So you are saying that the way to fix this stupid tank meta is to make people not being able to fight back. Got it.

You can still backbar the set just fine and use it mid combat. No change at all in that aspect. The only thing it changes is for those who specifically use it to buff up and one shot people. Ironically most gankers are ganking people in zerg fights or Xv1 so i have no idea why they are whining. Just light attack a random person before ganking someone else? QQ indeed

Now now, where did I say that? Smh.

Anyway most people I do engage while using CE is soul assault with a destro heavy/fiery reach so the change doesn't affect me the slightest. Since most people I do engage never get "oneshot". Except some low cp players or pve-ers in divine armor.

My regular build doesn't use CA either and neither does my bombbuild.

What I do say tough it was a wrong way to fix a exploit - imo atleast.

Also replying to those "targets who can't fight back blabla". When I do solo pvp (without zergsurfing) I prefer to burst my enemies down asap because I know help is coming their way. The enemy that you give a chance to fight back is the same player who will gapclose/mark/soul assault you with 5 of his buddies as soon as he can.

Also you think all players enjoys groups, drawn out fights or even fair fights? Some people play burst builds because they enjoy playing a rogue.

But w/e.

pieratsos

Master_Kas wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think @ZOS_Wrobel got ganked on millions of times from gankers who use CA.
Shame on you @ZOS_Wrobel, L2P. Or learn to be sensible with changes. Just make it so that players are in-combat after drinking a potion. Done.

But that doesnt make anything about ganking. It only solves the exploit issue.
Kinda ironic tho to talk about "L2P" while you are defending a playstyle that is based on killing people without them being able to fight back.

Well most of the time "fight back" means "hold block until allies arrive" and you get swarmed.

They really should've just made it so you are in combat when using CA bonus, then you could backbar it as usual aswell while fixing the exploit. QQ

So you are saying that the way to fix this stupid tank meta is to make people not being able to fight back. Got it.

You can still backbar the set just fine and use it mid combat. No change at all in that aspect. The only thing it changes is for those who specifically use it to buff up and one shot people. Ironically most gankers are ganking people in zerg fights or Xv1 so i have no idea why they are whining. Just light attack a random person before ganking someone else? QQ indeed

Now now, where did I say that? Smh.

Anyway most people I do engage while using CE is soul assault with a destro heavy/fiery reach so the change doesn't affect me the slightest. Since most people I do engage never get "oneshot". Except some low cp players or pve-ers in divine armor.

My regular build doesn't use CA either and neither does my bombbuild.

What I do say tough it was a wrong way to fix a exploit - imo atleast.

Also replying to those "targets who can't fight back blabla". When I do solo pvp (without zergsurfing) I prefer to burst my enemies down asap because I know help is coming their way. The enemy that you give a chance to fight back is the same player who will gapclose/mark/soul assault you with 5 of his buddies as soon as he can.

Also you think all players enjoys groups, drawn out fights or even fair fights? Some people play burst builds because they enjoy playing a rogue.

But w/e.

Where exactly did i say that the burst playstyle should not be viable. The burst playstyle is and should be viable. You dont need CA to burst people down. Especially stamblades. I use CA. I can backbar it and use it effectively to burst people down mid combat. It wont change anything in that aspect. The only thing it changes is for those who specifically use it to buff up with huge amounts of wpn dmg to execute a gank and one shot someone that wont have time to fight back. And even in that aspect, it can still be used. Just more strategically instead of just popping the potion while in sneak. And even without that set, that specific playstyle is still viable.

You say it was a wrong way to fix an exploit. But you are just assuming that the nerf to ganking happened because of the exploit. They specifically said that the change targets both the exploit and the use of it to one shot people and that they want people to use it mid combat. So what exactly is the issue ?

pieratsos

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

If you don’t gank the change is inconvenient but hardly set breaking @Sneaky-Snurr. And if you do gank ... you only miss out on the weapon damage buff for the opener. Makes it harder, but not impossible.

@Feanor
I agree, it's definitely not set breaking but there's a lot of other people who don't gank but prebuff themselves with CA as well.

Like for example (cc: @pieratsos), I used to run a 7-man PvP group that requires all members use CA build that utilises speed + major brutality/intellect pots, so we are always on speed before engaging a zerg which we expect to do the most damage within the first 15 seconds, effectively giving defenders some time to repair walls and whatnot.
That's just a few people who use CA without ganking. Imagine a whole lot of other unique non-ganking playstyles and/or groups would be implicated by this upcoming change.

The unique non-ganking playstyles are not being affected by the change. And i find it hard to believe how groups in siege fights can stay out of combat. Are you all invisible or something and no one targets you? And why is it so hard to light attack someone before engaging?

DDuke

Well, this mainly affects melee stamina gank builds - you can't get the crucial element of surprise anymore which lowers chances of killing target. These types of builds either remove their enemy quick, or they're toast.

That said, you don't need Alchemist for ganking - it's overkill most of the time. Imo Hunding's is a better, well-rounded set that also allows you to do more than just gank.

Magicka NB bomb builds should be barely affected by this change.


I would've preferred if they just made using a potion put you in combat, but knowing ZOS that probably would've made them break cloak/sneak as well so... not worth the risk I guess.

Delongest

As the number 1 ganker in the game I'm strongly against this change.

Gan Xing

Easy way to get into combat: small group pvp, have one in your group catch the aggro, and then boom, you are in combat if you are close enough to your friend (this usually works)

OdinForge

Delongest wrote: »

As the number 1 ganker in the game I'm strongly against this change.

Gan Xing

OdinForge wrote: »

Delongest wrote: »

As the number 1 ganker in the game I'm strongly against this change.

Soul shriven lie... it's how they get out of coldharbour

ManDraKE

I'm using clever on my stamplar, and this change kinda sucks. It would be a better option to modify the 5-piece proc so it forces the player into combat. Pre-buffing clever wasn't only for gankers, it was a key aspect of every clever alchemist build, no matter the class. This was the main advantage of using clever over things like fury or ravager, being able to prebuff so you could open with a burst

ak_pvp

I never had an issue with procs, though uncounterable and skilless. I wish we has procs and gankers again. TTK is mad.

idk

skinnycheeks wrote: »

From the notes:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.

Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

This change seems kind of silly in my opinion. Wouldn't a better option just be to not let you change your gear for 15s after drinking a potion? What do ya'll think?

Considering one loses the buff from rapids if they take it off the slot it seems that Zos could set it up so if one removes the gear they would lose the buff.

Granted, it may take a bit of thinking for Zos to figure that out since a bar swap would change which pieces are active, but certainly something that could be accomplished.

Subversus

idk wrote: »

skinnycheeks wrote: »

From the notes:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.

Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

This change seems kind of silly in my opinion. Wouldn't a better option just be to not let you change your gear for 15s after drinking a potion? What do ya'll think?

Considering one loses the buff from rapids if they take it off the slot it seems that Zos could set it up so if one removes the gear they would lose the buff.

Granted, it may take a bit of thinking for Zos to figure that out since a bar swap would change which pieces are active, but certainly something that could be accomplished.

You don't actually lose the buff itself, just the icon from buff bars/character sheet.