Magicka Nightblade Imperial City Build

fred4
fred4
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http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=24700

Note #1: The above link is for a revised build, where I swapped out Soul Assault for Soul Harvest. This has improved it's versatility, for example against flappy DKs, as well as it's overall damage. See below post, starting with "OK, based on our discussion, I have swapped out Soul Assault for Soul Harvest." for more notes on this change.

Note #2: Please also see my post from 1st October (may be 30th September US time), as I have made some set changes for greater tankiness, while retaining the same, or better, damage. These are not reflected in the above link.

This build is the end of a long line of evolution. Of course all builds are somewhat personal, so let me be upfront about my preferences:
  • I like humanoid, non-vampire characters, thus Breton was the only racial choice I considered.
  • I play primarily in Imperial City, in the CP campaigns. I am full CP. It's an all-round build for solo and random group PvP and PvE, in that environment.
  • I like being able to perma-cloak and I like speed and mobility above all else.
  • FYI, I have played this game for 2 years and started seriously getting into PvP when duelling was released with One Tamriel.

Let's talk about why the build is the way it is:

Perma-cloaking

This enables you to get around IC quickly and safely with the Concealed Weapon speed buff. In particular you can run around the flags without the guards detecting you, and you can scout the place with detection potions. It is the rare organised group that actively tries to detect cloaked nightblades with more than just low-range Inner Light. As far as NPCs, watch yourself in the Arboretum, where some of them run Magelight, around some of the bigger monsters, like Daedroths, who'll detect you when you get very close to their face, and of course the bosses who have a detection circle you'll see when cloaked.

Wanting to perma-cloak pretty much mandates light armor. You want quite a lot of cost reduction, and it has to be cost reduction and/or recovery that is effective outside of combat, as well as in combat. Magicka recovery item bonuses and jewelry enchants do not help regeneration outside of combat. Only the following does: Cost reduction enchants, drinks, Atronach mundus, and CP. Sets, like Seducer, can also help, but curiously not as much as the resulting tooltips would have you believe. The upshot is:
  • You want to use drinks - Witchmother's Potent Brew, essentially.
  • You want the Atronach mundus.
  • You want to put 75 points into Magicka Recovery CP. (100 would give you only 1% extra, ugh).
  • You want to use 2 cost reduction jewelry enchants.
  • You want to use Shadowy Disguise, which is the cheaper morph of Cloak at rank 4 (it gets cheaper as it ranks up).

This is enough cost reduction to perma-cloak in a 5/1/1 light armor setup, as a Breton, and have a slight excess of magicka recovery while cloaking out of combat. I can't stress enough how nice that is, because you will arrive with full magicka at any fight after running around for a while, even if your previous fight left you depleted. You don't need to sit somewhere and wait for your magicka to come back. The other benefit is that, with an additional 2 magicka recovery item bonuses, Funnel Health is getting close to break-even, and this has a very positive impact on your sustained DPS while farming IC bosses.

Defenses

This took me a looong time to get right. For one thing Cloak is insufficient, on it's own, to get you out of trouble, because you get snared, rooted, CCd, or detected. If your are squishy, trying to rely on cloak for defense or escape, then it must be supplemented with one or more of the following, in my opinion:
  • Shadow Image
  • Mist Form
  • Forward Momentum

My chosen skill, from that list, is Forward Momentum. This is the skill that gets you away from jabbing templars, Tremorscale or Low Slash spamming stamina characters, and Talon spamming DKs. In addition, the use of Immovability potions goes without saying, in PvP, I think - or at least for this type of build. The two potions I use are:
  • Immovability / Detection / Magicka
  • Immovability / Spell Crit / Magicka

Let's talk briefly about some skills that don't work, or are lacklustre, in this build:
  • Shuffle is almost twice as expensive as Forward Momentum and gives you no sustained snare/root immunity to speak of. You will immediately be snared/rooted again, so it's useless.
  • Retreating Maneuvers is extremely expensive and useless for ongoing combat. Can work as a bomb-blade, but not in general.
  • Efficient Purge only clears 2 effects and is utterly unreliable in clearing the ones you want. Also expensive and provides no immunity to help you get cloaked and away.
  • Mass Hysteria is buggy: If only one person around you has CC immunity, it fails CCing other people that don't.

For the longest time I played this build as either a Destro / Resto or a Destro / 2H build. When I used the latter, I used Troll King. Let's tackle that option first. The idea was that the small heal-over-time, from Foward Momentum, would reliably activate Troll King, even when I was CCd. This indeed works, but in the final analysis it didn't provide enough healing to keep up with even a single competent stamblade. There comes a point in a fight where the opponent's damage is so great that maybe you don't die, but you are completely forced into defense, and your attack collapses. This could even happen against single players, notably stamblades. Swapping Skooma Smuggler out for Wizard's Riposte helped, but basically having a resto staff trumps a single shield (even Dampen Magic) plus Troll King by a considerable margin.

The problem with the Destro / Resto setup is the roots and snares. Should you get locked into a high DPS templar's jabs / sweeps, who put Backlash on you, then you can find yourself in exactly the same situation of only defending. With Forward Momentum you just walk away from those people. The alternative would be Shadow Image, but my personal preference has always been Forward Momentum, and that is how I finally gave up the destro staff for a resto / 2H setup. I have never looked back. In the context of a light armor / cloaking / shielding build it's the best I've found so far.

Speed and Mobility

Fred, you're saying, you don't have a single great NB skill, that gives you speed, in the build. That's right. Well, I do have Concealed Weapon. It's such a shame having to slot this skill into a ranged build, just so I could get the 25% movement speed buff, but I have never regretted it. Did I mention I like speed? When you're circling a group, in cloak, that has fidgety streaking sorcs in it, you want that speed. You also want it during getaways and, finally, the skill does get some use against flappy DKs and, sometimes, for the stun prior to Soul Assault.

My other source of speed is the Skooma Smuggler set, which gives Major Expedition for 30 seconds after drinking a potion. That's 66% uptime in combat, while pursuing fleeing enemies, or during getaways. Let's look at the alternatives:
  • Crippling Grasp: Another highly-rated skill with a serious flaw: If you have the Crippling Grasp DOT on an enemy, it knocks you out of cloak while the DOT ticks. No thank you.
  • Double Take: Great for the dodge chance, but as a speed buff I find it way too short and expensive. With Skooma Smuggler I can pursue enemies, in cloak, and arrive to fight with full magicka.
  • (Refreshing) Path: Limits where you get the buff and would give you away in cloak.

Armor Sets

Shacklebreaker is just such a PvP set, and it fits perfectly with Witchmother's Potent Brew. Since I am committed to that drink (see above), I chose this set as the basis for the build. You'll want it active on both bars, otherwise (at full stamina) you lose all-important stamina every time you swap bars. It's the one downside to this set, but the upside is that 1x Domihaus exists, and you arrive at that healthy 15K stamina pool. In conjunction with the 1x Shacklebreaker stam regen bonus, and Immov potions, I find that I have just enough stamina sustain. I used to have a smaller pool and used either Leeching Strikes or stamina poisons for added sustain then.

All things being equal I use Skooma Smuggler to round out the build, but I may swap it for the following sets, depending on the situation:
  • Imperial Physique. For farming, obviously.
  • Wizard's Riposte. Just too good, if you need something more defensive.
  • War Maiden. It is literally all magic damage, in this build, thus a good choice for more damage.

Weapon enchants remain experimental. The prismatic enchant is obviously a good choice for dealing with PvE, in IC, and for vampire / werewolf players. If you want to be optimal, make your chest piece the heavy armor one. I made it the head for cosmetic reasons.

Skills

Let's start with the skills that define this build:

Funnel Health
Healing Ward
Harness Magicka
Light's Champion

Concealed Weapon
Forward Momentum
Shadowy Disguise

Not much (more) I can say about those. Funnel Health / Swallow Soul: You got to have a spammable, so take your pick. Healing Ward is what most of the resto-using population chooses, in PvP, I'm sure. I much prefer Harness Magicka over Dampen Magic for the sustain it gives. Light's Champion, again, is the morph that "everyone uses", right?

A word on Harness vs Healing Ward, and why you use both. The problems with Healing Ward are:
  • It can go to another person.
  • It is only small at full health.
  • It is expensive and doesn't help with sustain the way Harness Magicka does.

In particular, if you are standing there, turning a flag, you must shield against ganks with this build, and Healing Ward on it's own won't cut it. On the other hand, Harness Magicka obviously doesn't heal you, thus you need Healing Ward or something else to do that. Funnel and Sap are way insufficient in PvP and boss fights. Light's Champion is not always available, and you want, nay, you need to use your aggressive ulti instead, while you're soloing.

So let's look at the remaining skills:

Piercing Mark, Sap Essence and Soul Assault round out the 2H bar. There's really two ways you kill players as a magicka nighblade: An Assassin's Will / Ultimate (Soul Tether) combo, or Soul Assault. Should you want to do the former, you could very easily swap out Sap and Soul Assault for Merciless Resolve and Soul Tether. You would still have the mandatory Siphoning ability on the bar, and you actually gain a lot of power from that Nirnhoned, 2-handed sword - as much as from a destro staff. In Minor Berserk you would also gain a damage buff that is exactly equivalent to the Major Sorcery buff, from Sap Essence, in the final balance sheet.

You could, of course also do away with Piercing Mark, instead of Sap Essence. I just like it, because it makes such a difference against other nightblades.

Sap Essence, besides being the mandatory Siphoning ability on the 2H bar, is there to get Major Sorcery and for soloing IC bosses that have adds. The technique is to activate the resto ult and spam Sap Essence when those spawn. Since these are all Undead / Daedra, the resto ult is back up again in no time.

Finally, on the resto bar, we have Prolonged Suffering and Impale. The former skill is unpopular, but I find I can't live without a hard CC in PvP. I used to have Flame Reach in this position, or Fossilize on my DK. As I mentioned, I dislike Mass Hysteria, and a ranged skill fits the build better. Even though, like Crippling Grasp, Prolonged Suffering puts a DOT on the opponent, it seems less prone to knock you out of cloak or be used at a point in time where that would be an issue.

Impale is useful against IC bosses and players alike. I find I miss it, if it's not there. You could obviously shuffle things around and put a different Assassination skill here. Merciless Resolve, perhaps, but although that fits more naturally on the ranged bar, it is arguably better slotted on the 2H bar for power and Tether comboing.
Edited by fred4 on October 1, 2017 2:23AM
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    "When I used the latter, I used Troll King. Let's tackle that option first. The idea was that the small heal-over-time, from Foward Momentum, would reliably activate Troll King, even when I was CCd. This indeed works, but in the final analysis it didn't provide enough healing to keep up with even a single competent stamblade. "

    Did you try using swallow soul instead of funnel health? It increases the healing received; minor fortitude i think?
    Putting swallow soul on the same bar as forward momentum could help to just use dampen for a bigger shield & have hots as larger ticks on you.

    Very interesting build, I like it. I'm not a fan of smuggler or soul assault tbh, but to each his own.
    You went smuggler because your time to kill a target is longer on tankier targets/better players, so you need the speed to get out of that situation. I prefer wizard's riposte & using spell penetration mundus because even though your damage is high at just over 2.6k, you only have around 5k penetration from wearing light armor, so using lover mundus would be better for faster killing. Also maybe swap one of your cost reduction enchants for another recovery enchant would help with the loss of the atro mundus.

    I get that you're using mark for increased penetration on your targets but I don't think that helps much against templars that would just purge it off. The reason I go with Dampen over harness is because it's a bigger shield which means that you cast it less times. Also, if you're fighting a stam player you're not getting any magicka return from harness.

    If you have dampen, you could always swap funnel to swallow soul & try using a different healing ability like combat prayer or something else; have you tried? If you wanted more of a hybrid, depending on how your stamina sits, you could go stam for heals/hots & magicka for offense or vice versa.

    GLHF,

    -Kai
    Edited by kaithuzar on September 4, 2017 8:25PM
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  • fred4
    fred4
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    I had Swallow Soul at one point, but decided to go back to Funnel for when I group up. It didn't feel like much of a difference; nothing like having Healing Ward and the resto ult available, as you might expect. There is an option I didn't mention, and that is Soul Siphon, the other morph of Soul Tether. It's like an inferior and more expensive resto ult, which I ran in a 2H / destro setup for a while.

    I'm mildly curious what's not to like about Soul Assault. Is it because you think it's cheese or because it's ineffective? Paradoxically both are true. It can be devastating to inexperienced players or serve as an execute above the 25% Impale threshold for anyone whose health is low, but it can be utterly ineffective against tanks and really dangerous and ineffective against high-DPS counter-attacking players, where you end up block-cancelling it, or you die. The upside to the build is that a Merciless / Tether combo is entirely viable, with the 2H bar providing a lot more spell damage over the resto bar. Blobs had a resto / DW build some time ago - same principle, except he pushed damage on the DW as high as he possibly could. I tend to only Soul Assault once I make inroads in a players health. I came across a player, though, who used it relentlessly, as soon as it was up, and really felt the pressure, even if he didn't kill me. I think I'll do that for a while :).

    I don't particularly like to escape, unless I am outnumbered by competent players. While going in and out of cloak is par for the course, if only for the resistance buff, I fundamentally aim to stay in the fight and defend with shields. I've tried Dampen. I just like the sustain from Harness better. Against single stamina characters the loss of sustain is noticeable and Dampen would, of course, be better. It is rare to come across a group, though, that doesn't have magicka characters in it. In fact, it feels like there's more magicka around on PC EU these days. Sustain-wise, I am constrained by my desire to perma-cloak when i want to. Hence the Atro mundus and cost-reduction, rather than recovery enchants.

    Anyway, thanks for reading my very long post.
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    "I'm mildly curious what's not to like about Soul Assault. Is it because you think it's cheese or because it's ineffective? Paradoxically both are true"

    Yes, both. I think it's cheese however, I think that if I can stand there & spam shields it's not very effective. Especially if you're trying to 1vx, you can't stand in one place casting a single spell without expecting to get attacked by at least 1 other player.
    Member of:
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    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • fred4
    fred4
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    OK, based on our discussion, I have swapped out Soul Assault for Soul Harvest. This has had some very interesting consequences:
    • The build now plays as a mixed melee and ranged build, where previously it was basically a ranged build with fallback to melee for flappy DKs.
    • It has a strong opener in Concealed Weapon from stealth, which has the CC and guaranteed crit, followed by Soul Harvest. You may then do Sap Essence or Mark. At this point the enemy is liable to back off and/or counter-attack, and you switch to the ranged resto bar to establish some healing (Funnel) or shield, but you also have Impale on that bar, in case they are now low on health.
    • From a technical point of view it might be better to swap Impale and Mark, so Impale is on the 2H bar and you get the extra 10 Ultimate from Soul Harvest on execute. However from how it plays, I prefer Impale on the ranged bar. People tend to seek out LoS positions or plainly streak away, if they are in jeopardy. Switching to ranged for Funnel / Agony, then execute, makes sense, I think, and it's nicer in IC boss fights as well. I also like Mark on the cloaking bar, since I typically mark NBs from stealth in group fights to help my allies.
    • With current CP, light attacks on the 2H bar are actually comparable to the resto bar. In fact, non-crit ones are higher, but crit ones are lower, due to having no weapon crit CP.
    • Getting rid of Soul Assault meant I could respec CP, removing that substantial investment in Thaumaturge, and spreading it elsewhere, mainly Master-At-Arms and the one for more crit damage. The build feels remarkably stronger for it; also Concealed hits harder than Funnel. Despite diminishing CP returns, the build feels stronger on the resto bar as well. It may be, because the Prismatic enchant can crit. The Daedra in IC are my yardstick for this impression.
    • With greater use of Concealed Weapon for CC, the next ability in jeopardy is Prolonged Suffering, although I do like it a lot for people trying to flee or LoS. It could be replaced with Merciless Resolve though.
    • Although Soul Harvest / Incap Strike is bread-and-butter for a melee NB, I have never played this type of build. It truly feels this is how NB was intended by the developers. Other classes (warden, cough) plainly do more damage, whereas NB seems to require stacking all the offensive buffs in it's arsenal to truly come alive.
    Edited by fred4 on September 7, 2017 12:21AM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    You can swap smugglers for trans if you already have a damage set. Here why:

    - use speed pots that are a hot. They are cheap to make (this can be made without expensive mats), run longer than smugglers, and proc both trans and troll king.
    - with all that Regen, use spell damage mundas and DMG enchants.

    That's all I got. Enjoy!
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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    - Filthy Casual
  • kaithuzar
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    I actually don't run mark and run assassin's will instead, this may not be as viable for IC; but it's how I run open world cyro.
    Personally I hate marking a single dk, go in to kill, and he's got a nb buddy in stealth that I now have to change targets to, or as of late...a sorc in stealth...
    Re-applying mark on a different target, especially while under duress, seems like a less likely option to me where as firing off the assassin's will that's proc'd will get one of them taking some dmg enough to pull off of you & go heal up.

    I don't know ANYONE who's ever had the same problems that I've had with Soul Harvest (including any of it's morphs).
    I used it all the time when the game first came out with no issue that I can recall. But over the last few years it's been constantly missing. Even if the opponent is NOT utilizing shuffle or double take, if I'm moving around or dodge rolling, or pressing other buttons at the same time I'm trying to use it, it just blatantly misses. I literally have to stop what i'm doing completely (including stop moving around), hit the ult button, wait for it to finish, then move around.
    If I'm moving around at all or swapping bars or other attacks around the same time, it completely misses as if it were my fault. Maybe my character is bugged although it's an unlikely thing.

    I love the meteor agony combo, as far as I know, I'm the first person in the game to do it & I started it around 2014 because of all the DK's I fought that would meteor + fossilize me; so that's a for sure ult/combo in my book. As for the other ult, I chose healing bats, but it works well for my setup, maybe resto ult will be better for yours? Or if you do decide to use assassin's will, that combo's very well with Soul Tether as Kena has well proven.

    I run impale on my resto bar as well due to running assassin's will on my front, but I also run sap & mage light on front & cloak on back; just my preference.
    Member of:
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  • fred4
    fred4
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    Minno wrote: »
    You can swap smugglers for trans if you already have a damage set. Here why:

    - use speed pots that are a hot. They are cheap to make (this can be made without expensive mats), run longer than smugglers, and proc both trans and troll king.
    - with all that Regen, use spell damage mundas and DMG enchants.

    That's all I got. Enjoy!

    Sorry, I have to call you out for an utterly ignorant comment. I am only putting my build out there as something that is in use. You make some good points about the way those potions and Troll King interact. It will be good for anyone to see the interlocking parts of another build. That's what it is, though. You are running a differnt build, that's excellent, but don't pretend that you have advice for me, when I didn't ask for it, and when you clearly don't pay heed to, or simply haven't read all my stated priorities.

    <Sigh>. In case you don't know what I'm referring to:
    • Regarding spell damage mundus and enchants, you obviously have not read my section on perma-cloaking. You don't want to do that? That's fine. Just don't suggest something when I have explicitly stated that's what I want to do.
    • Did you notice I listed Wizard's Riposte as one of my alternate sets? Sure, Transmutation would be another one, but you can see that I'm already swapping out Smuggler for a defensive set on occasion. What makes Transmutation so special? That you're using it? Do you understand that the 2x regen buffs, from Transmutation, are no good for magicka regen out of combat, and thus do not facilitate perma-cloaking, or do I have to explain that again?
    • I know the pots you are talking about. Speed and Lingering Health, right? Where's the Immovability? Where's the Detection? Where the magicka? Did you read that I gave up on Troll King? I used the pots you are talking about on my DK. There is no way that they will outperform the resto ult + Healing Ward in the context of a light armor build. There is also no way I'm giving up Immovability. Having Immovability and Detection makes such a marked difference to gameplay, I would never consider anything else. The point of using Skooma Smuggler is that it creates a potion that doesn't exist. One that adds speed to that mix.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    Personally I hate marking a single dk, go in to kill, and he's got a nb buddy in stealth that I now have to change targets to, or as of late...a sorc in stealth... Re-applying mark on a different target, especially while under duress, seems like a less likely option to me where as firing off the assassin's will that's proc'd will get one of them taking some dmg enough to pull off of you & go heal up.
    I'm actually not great at applying Mark or keeping up any buffs. Paradoxically I like shields; they're about the only thing I keep up consistently. Like you, I think I feel the opportunity cost. Buffs are good when they result in burst at some point. It's something I've never had, although Soul Harvest is redressing that a bit. I am more someone who tries to keep up constant pressure. I find Mark fairly necessary for other nightblades. It's a relief, it potentially messes with their gameplay, and it allows you to aggressively go after them, obviously. I would probably mark a DK only if it turns out he is defending well, and we are in a prolonged duel. Other than that, go after the squishier playes first, right?
    I don't know ANYONE who's ever had the same problems that I've had with Soul Harvest ... it just blatantly misses.
    You know, I think I have noticed this, and then dismissed it as a figment of my imagination. Isn't it the case that all ultimates sometimes, mysteriously, don't activate? I also find 5m abilities quite hard to land. I've used dual-wield on another character, and Flurry's 7m range definitely makes it easier to land than, for example, Venomous Claw.
    I love the meteor agony combo, as far as I know, I'm the first person in the game to do it & I started it around 2014 because of all the DK's I fought that would meteor + fossilize me; so that's a for sure ult/combo in my book.
    Like a DK, huh? I find Meteor so inconsistent, both when I use it, and against me. Sometimes it devastates; as you say, you want to combo it for that. I usually have shields up, esp. if I hear a meteor, and I love the times when I have Immov up as well and just walk out of it.
    As for the other ult, I chose healing bats, but it works well for my setup, maybe resto ult will be better for yours?
    No vampire for me. My girl likes being pretty :).
    Or if you do decide to use assassin's will, that combo's very well with Soul Tether as Kena has well proven.
    Sure, that's the standard combo I know. Right now I am quite liking the buffs / debuffs from Soul Harvest.
    I run impale on my resto bar as well due to running assassin's will on my front, but I also run sap & mage light on front & cloak on back; just my preference.
    Concealed and Cloak go together, for me, for the speed. Escape from suddenly increased enemy numbers is certainly very possible, and the speed plays a part in that. Not saying that's the only way to do it ... as ever I'm not a vampire, for example, so no Mist Form and no Bats for me. Would love to have room for Inner Light (used to), but too much other stuff I wanted.
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    It's a different playstyle, but since you like speed, try swapping harness magicka for double take.
    You will notice double take bar swap cloak keeping them on opposite bars gives a nice speed increase.
    I am still worried about your magic recovery though I can't recall if you are using magic drain poisons on one of your weapons but it might be a thought to help sustain.
    Member of:
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    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
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    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • Taylor_MB
    Taylor_MB
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Do you understand that the 2x regen buffs, from Transmutation, are no good for magicka regen out of combat, and thus do not facilitate perma-cloaking, or do I have to explain that again?

    Wait, what?
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  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    OP is referring to a different post where that topic was discussed.
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  • fred4
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    It's a different playstyle, but since you like speed, try swapping harness magicka for double take.
    You will notice double take bar swap cloak keeping them on opposite bars gives a nice speed increase.
    I am still worried about your magic recovery though I can't recall if you are using magic drain poisons on one of your weapons but it might be a thought to help sustain.
    Hmm. Do I need to point you to my original post as well? Double-take is a total magicka hog, when used for speed. It's also no replacement whatsoever for a shield, in a light armor build. I'd consider it in heavy, but not in light (since I can't slot everything). I do not find Healing Ward on it's own viable, for reasons already stated. With the two shields, resto ult, Forward Momentum and Immov pot, I walk out of being focused by multiple players, and into cloak, surprisingly often. My friend, an outright tank, thinks I'm tanky.

    Not sure why you are worried about my recovery? It is very good! You're looking at the figure from UESP? Bear in mind that I am a Breton (3% cost reduction) and I use 2 cost reduction enchants. You can't compare it with, say, an Altmer that only specs into recovery. My Funnel cost is down to 1.3K, Cloak under 3K, and Harness Magicka typically pays for itself, and then some. It is rare I have to do heavy attacks with the resto staff. No poisons. Having the 15K stamina pool and just 800 recovery also works out well (Immov pots are a given). Also I play in CP, but I have been in BG with the build and sustain was pretty OK there too, even if I'd probably revise it playing there more often.
  • kaithuzar
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    Ah my apologies, it's late here & im barely awake. I remember you stating about double take shortly after you said it but I had been scrolling your original post again on my phone & didn't see it when I posted. I just wasn't certain if you had tried on separate bars because it's a distinct short speed increase, but I'm too tired to scroll back up & read.
    I remember how nice it was when I had a 15k stam pool, I've been suffering through 10-11k lately. Your build seems solid, you could play around with adding an increase weapon and spell damage enchant to one of your weapons if fights last longer than you prefer. Infused weap is the obvious choice but up to you.
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  • fred4
    fred4
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Do you understand that the 2x regen buffs, from Transmutation, are no good for magicka regen out of combat, and thus do not facilitate perma-cloaking, or do I have to explain that again?

    Wait, what?

    Wear sets without magicka recovery bonuses. Cloak repeatedly, every 2.9 seconds, and count the number of times you can cloak, before you run out of magicka while you are out of combat. Now put on some sets, like Transmutation, that have magicka recovery bonuses. Make sure your total magicka stays the same. Make sure the magicka cost of Cloak is still the same, according to the tooltip. Repeat the test. You will find you can Cloak EXACTLY the same number of times, before you run out. This is because magicka recovery bonuses on item sets, and magicka recovery glyphs on jewelry, do NOT alter your out of combat magicka recovery. The figures you see on your character sheet are in combat figures. You don't get to see the out of combat ones, except maybe with an addon.

    I did discuss it in my original post, above, just not in that detail. The upshot is that you can only rely on cost reduction, the Atro mundus, drinks, and, I think, the mag recovery CP star, to affect your out of combat magicka recovery and cloak cost.
  • fred4
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    Ah my apologies
    No problem. I know I'm pedantic :).
    I remember how nice it was when I had a 15k stam pool, I've been suffering through 10-11k lately.
    Yes. Going 5/5/1 and missing out on a full monster set was definitely a sacrifice, but the way I see it, it saves me from slotting Leeching Strikes or poisons to supplement stam regen. Also that 1x stam regen bonus, from Shackle, is just perfect. A friend of mine thinks it's not enough, but he doesn't use Immov pots.
    you could play around with adding an increase weapon and spell damage enchant to one of your weapons if fights last longer than you prefer. Infused weap is the obvious choice but up to you.
    This is actually something I'm still unsure about. The resto staff was my primary attack weapon (not anymore though) and is Infused. The Prismatic is great for Tel Var farming, and I see it quite often in the combat log against players too. On the Infused weapon it hit the last player for just under 3K. I forget whether that was a crit. Unlike the Oblivion enchant, I believe that one can crit.

    I am not sold on the weapon and spell damage enchant. The last I tested against a target skeleton, I think a shock enchant clearly outperformed it - but I want to run that test again. Shock is damage of it's own and can proc Concussion, which results in an 8% damage increase, similar to Minor Berserk (I believe it would stack). It seems to be the way to go these days.
  • Minno
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    You can swap smugglers for trans if you already have a damage set. Here why:

    - use speed pots that are a hot. They are cheap to make (this can be made without expensive mats), run longer than smugglers, and proc both trans and troll king.
    - with all that Regen, use spell damage mundas and DMG enchants.

    That's all I got. Enjoy!

    Sorry, I have to call you out for an utterly ignorant comment. I am only putting my build out there as something that is in use. You make some good points about the way those potions and Troll King interact. It will be good for anyone to see the interlocking parts of another build. That's what it is, though. You are running a differnt build, that's excellent, but don't pretend that you have advice for me, when I didn't ask for it, and when you clearly don't pay heed to, or simply haven't read all my stated priorities.

    <Sigh>. In case you don't know what I'm referring to:
    • Regarding spell damage mundus and enchants, you obviously have not read my section on perma-cloaking. You don't want to do that? That's fine. Just don't suggest something when I have explicitly stated that's what I want to do.
    • Did you notice I listed Wizard's Riposte as one of my alternate sets? Sure, Transmutation would be another one, but you can see that I'm already swapping out Smuggler for a defensive set on occasion. What makes Transmutation so special? That you're using it? Do you understand that the 2x regen buffs, from Transmutation, are no good for magicka regen out of combat, and thus do not facilitate perma-cloaking, or do I have to explain that again?
    • I know the pots you are talking about. Speed and Lingering Health, right? Where's the Immovability? Where's the Detection? Where the magicka? Did you read that I gave up on Troll King? I used the pots you are talking about on my DK. There is no way that they will outperform the resto ult + Healing Ward in the context of a light armor build. There is also no way I'm giving up Immovability. Having Immovability and Detection makes such a marked difference to gameplay, I would never consider anything else. The point of using Skooma Smuggler is that it creates a potion that doesn't exist. One that adds speed to that mix.

    Not ignorant or advice, critque discussion. There's a difference.

    Don't nightblades have a minor maim buff? Why slot a 5pc set for what you get in one skill? I know it's buggy, but doesn't the debuff apply regardless? If you use frost enchants, you'll add offensive uptime on that buff as well since wizards which requires you to be hit to work and this build requires you to avoid being hit entirely. Due to diminishing returns, unless you are only using wizards for your defense, then that set gives less than the 15% bonus. You'd have to calculate all your mitigation together and you'll see; you might be better off rolling resistance stats.

    Are you sure in cloak you are getting "out of combat" Regen? You'd have to agro a player/mob, then cloak to see (it's my understanding once in combat, you'll have less Regen. If a player has a debuff on you, then you'll be in combat for a bit of time, enough to warrant slotting mag Regen on stats. Plus those stats add to your out of combat regen, based on the add-on I'm using.).

    Smugglers nets around 238.6 SD total. Apprentice mundas gives you 238 SD. So ideally, if you switch to trans + swap mundas stone, you can be at the same Regen/DMG but gain spell crit+crit resists adding to your defense stats and defensive heals. That's why I suggested another set/potion over smugglers; apprentice stone beats it offensively and mobilty pots come with mag return/imovable so that 5pc is useless unless you are going to use tri pots.

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  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    fred4 wrote: »
    kaithuzar wrote: »
    Ah my apologies
    No problem. I know I'm pedantic :).
    I remember how nice it was when I had a 15k stam pool, I've been suffering through 10-11k lately.
    Yes. Going 5/5/1 and missing out on a full monster set was definitely a sacrifice, but the way I see it, it saves me from slotting Leeching Strikes or poisons to supplement stam regen. Also that 1x stam regen bonus, from Shackle, is just perfect. A friend of mine thinks it's not enough, but he doesn't use Immov pots.
    you could play around with adding an increase weapon and spell damage enchant to one of your weapons if fights last longer than you prefer. Infused weap is the obvious choice but up to you.
    This is actually something I'm still unsure about. The resto staff was my primary attack weapon (not anymore though) and is Infused. The Prismatic is great for Tel Var farming, and I see it quite often in the combat log against players too. On the Infused weapon it hit the last player for just under 3K. I forget whether that was a crit. Unlike the Oblivion enchant, I believe that one can crit.

    I am not sold on the weapon and spell damage enchant. The last I tested against a target skeleton, I think a shock enchant clearly outperformed it - but I want to run that test again. Shock is damage of it's own and can proc Concussion, which results in an 8% damage increase, similar to Minor Berserk (I believe it would stack). It seems to be the way to go these days.

    Imo, infused disease enchant is the way to go. It won't show on a dummy but disease enchants proc major defile and with some points in befoul and good weaving you can have a very high uptime on major defile between soul harvest and disease enchant.

    Your damage numbers won't go up but the pressure you apply is amplified by the lack of healing for your opponents.

    my TTK on tanky targets is as low as it's ever been and that's a direct result of the strength of heal debuffs
    Edited by Lexxypwns on September 7, 2017 3:01PM
  • kaithuzar
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    One thing to note, I thought Harven's extended stats "showed in combat regen", which I had interpreted as the normal player stat showing "out of combat regen" by default; is this wrong? Maybe like you had stated previously, out of combat regen is just something you have to calculate for. I can't remember at this time if willows path, which I thought was supposed to have the final 5 piece as "in combat regen" is actually displayed on your default character sheet; maybe it is now although I didn't think it use to be.

    My case about the prismatic is simply that if the person isn't a vampire or werewolf, does that mean you would not do any damage to them? I guess most people in IC are vamp though so probably not something you have to worry about a lot, but even running shock enchant on one of them, as you stated, may be beneficial.
    Did you list your cp tree regarding damage somewhere & I'm missing it? I know shock gives concussion, but I forget what that means, does it proc the off-balance for exploiter passive meaning points (75) into thaumaturge are needed or is it like a "minor vulnerability" or something?

    If you do decide to stick with soul harvest, I'm interested in how many points you want to use in befoul cp tree. My recommendation would be to test the healing debuff with 10cp, 50cp, 80cp, 100cp on a templar or dk & see what you think. I did this in the past, but they constantly change code without us knowing, so I would be interested in hearing your results if it's something you intend on using & sticking with.
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  • fred4
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    Minno, Riposte debuffs all of your opponents, not just one. I take your point that I could have partial uptime on Minor Maim and add the Transmutation buff. Since I'm wearing 5/5/1, I could also wear Impregnable, in that case, for even more crit resist, but at the end of the day I am a shielding build. Crits don't matter that much to me. Riposte, on the other hand, reduces damage before it hits the shield. In reality I wear Smuggler or Imperial Physique most of the time.

    I am getting out of combat regen when I'm running around while out of combat. That happens a lot, you know. Cloak, with Concealed Weapon, is a fast and invisible way to simply get around, which is what I'm aiming for. It allows me to size up the enemy before engaging. It allows me to scout around flags, without setting off the guards. With a potion as needed, it allows me to pursue groups, waiting for the right moment to strike, even as they are riding / streaking towards a door, in IC, or if one of them is separating. You are correct in that it's unsustainable in combat (with my build at least), although it's pretty close as well.

    Mobility pots come with Immovable and mag return? False. If not, please list the ingredients. You're thinking of Immovability / Speed / Stamina. Sorry, I want the Detection or Spell Crit, and Magicka.

    Why are you quoting an addon for out of combat regen, when I've already told you tests disprove what it says? Run a test, and you'll see.
    Edited by fred4 on September 7, 2017 3:33PM
  • Minno
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    Here's my thinking of how to replace smugglers but still use utility without giving up DMG:
    I could fit shadow walker + shackle breaker + one pirate helm for 2900 easy boost to resists.

    It gives you 41k mag with 1700 Regen in combat. But shadow walker let's you ignore the movement speed of sneak letting you sneak around faster on your cloak bar!!

    What do you think about this edit? Once again not trying to be ignorant just making suggestions :). Otherwise I love the build.

    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=25741
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  • fred4
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    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Imo, infused disease enchant is the way to go. It won't show on a dummy but disease enchants proc major defile and with some points in befoul and good weaving you can have a very high uptime on major defile between soul harvest and disease enchant.
    It's interesting you're using the disease enchant in addition to Soul Harvest. I'd been wondering whether it was Minor Defile, and stack, but it's Major, you say? E.g. for more uptime.
  • fred4
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    Minno wrote: »
    Here's my thinking of how to replace smugglers but still use utility without giving up DMG:
    I could fit shadow walker + shackle breaker + one pirate helm for 2900 easy boost to resists.

    It gives you 41k mag with 1700 Regen in combat. But shadow walker let's you ignore the movement speed of sneak letting you sneak around faster on your cloak bar!!

    What do you think about this edit? Once again not trying to be ignorant just making suggestions :). Otherwise I love the build.

    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=25741
    Shadow Dancer is completely redundant for a perma-cloaking nightblade. I hardly ever sneak. I cloak every 2.9 seconds, or just under. For starters there is a big difference between cloak (invisibility) and crouch (sneak):
    • Cloak makes you invisible. No matter how close players get, they can't see or target you, unless they use counter-measures, such as AOE, Detect Pots, Magelight, Expert Hunter, or Revealing Flare. Crouched players, on the other hand, become visible to any other player who (accidentally) gets close enough. Am I right in thinking you haven't played a cloaking nightblade? This is very stark when you run around in cloak all the time. You will stumble across crouched players, but they won't see you.
    • Cloak also makes you undetectable to the flag guards. Crouch does no such thing. In fact, they will detect and expose you from quite a distance.
    • There is no speed penalty for Cloak that would make Shadow Dancer useful. There is only a speed penalty for Crouch. If you slot Concealed Weapon, speed while cloaked in fact gets a 25% buff that stacks with Major Expedition.
    • Moving in crouch, while using Shadow Dancer or otherwise, inhibits your stam regen and runs down your stamina. Very dangerous if you don't watch that, and take breaks, as you could find yourself unable to break free. Cloaking every 2.9 seconds, on the other hand, breaks even or, in fact, leaves me with a very slight magicka surplus, meaning I don't run down my magicka (out of combat) while doing it. Magicka regen is not inhibited by running the Cloak skill.
    Edited by fred4 on September 7, 2017 4:25PM
  • fred4
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    Edited by fred4 on September 7, 2017 4:25PM
  • Lexxypwns
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Imo, infused disease enchant is the way to go. It won't show on a dummy but disease enchants proc major defile and with some points in befoul and good weaving you can have a very high uptime on major defile between soul harvest and disease enchant.
    It's interesting you're using the disease enchant in addition to Soul Harvest. I'd been wondering whether it was Minor Defile, and stack, but it's Major, you say? E.g. for more uptime.

    Yeah, basically I have greater than 50% uptime in major defile with a sizeable investment into befoul cp star. I killed a warden in his tree ulti last night without an ulti of my own.

    Also, for purely pvp it's better to use incap over soul harvest even on mageblade. It scales off your higher stat and comes with CC attached so you can use it from stealth without needing conceal first. This way you get your 20% damage done buff on all the expensive conceal casts.

    I understand for IC and the pve elements wanting to keep soul harvest
  • fred4
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    I have not decided on the Soul Harvest / Incap morph yet, having just started to use this skill. I was aware that magblades use Incap in no CP, particularly. With CP Soul Harvest gives a little more damage, due to Elemental Expert. I'm also guessing it crits harder with the (20%) increase I get from CP for mag skills. Must try both at some point. Incap seems interesting particularly for stam sorcs, as you won't remain cloaked in their Hurricane, so I'm not sure whether it's possible to stun them with Concealed Weapon.
  • fred4
    fred4
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    One thing to note, I thought Harven's extended stats "showed in combat regen", which I had interpreted as the normal player stat showing "out of combat regen" by default; is this wrong?
    I don't use Harven's. The default stats are "in combat", of that I'm sure.
    My case about the prismatic is simply that if the person isn't a vampire or werewolf, does that mean you would not do any damage to them?
    Correct, I won't do any extra damage, but .... err .... DEATH TO VAMPIRES :). That Bats ultimate is so annoying, esp. when tanky DKs use it.
    Did you list your cp tree regarding damage somewhere & I'm missing it? I know shock gives concussion, but I forget what that means, does it proc the off-balance for exploiter passive meaning points (75) into thaumaturge are needed or is it like a "minor vulnerability" or something?
    To be honest, I'm not very clear on this myself. The Exploiter passive is for Off Balance. Off Balance can be procd when enemies were concussed first. My magicka characters don't have that passive, but I believe there is a damage increase that can proc directly from shock damage, without off balance. I was running Overwhelming Surge against my target skeleton and noticed it. My googling indicates that Concussed should cause Minor Maim, not vulnerability, but I think that may be out of date.
    If you do decide to stick with soul harvest, I'm interested in how many points you want to use in befoul cp tree.
    So far I have 24%. That bumps Major Defile from 30% to 37%, according to tooltip.
  • kaithuzar
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    Yea, I typically use incap because it's easier to tell that I've hit my opponent when they're laying on the ground. During that duration, it seems like a long time for them to CC break/stand up which is where I get some good dps in.

    Something I was just thinking about though, could you not just run smuggler on your back bar so that when you bar swap to your front bar then you would still have the buff. That would enable you to utilize a 2nd monster piece or a set of your choosing. I believe the weapons for smuggler are fairly cheap as you're the first person I've talked to that uses that set.
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  • Minno
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    Yea, I typically use incap because it's easier to tell that I've hit my opponent when they're laying on the ground. During that duration, it seems like a long time for them to CC break/stand up which is where I get some good dps in.

    Something I was just thinking about though, could you not just run smuggler on your back bar so that when you bar swap to your front bar then you would still have the buff. That would enable you to utilize a 2nd monster piece or a set of your choosing. I believe the weapons for smuggler are fairly cheap as you're the first person I've talked to that uses that set.

    Smugglers procs stay on so you can backbar it. I used to used it allot on my Templar till the change to apprentice mundas stone gave the same offensive bonus as the entire 3 piece of that set.
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  • fred4
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    Correct. I ran Smuggler only on my back bar in the past. Was using Spinner on the front bar for a long time. Those builds always had lower stamina, in the 10K to 12K range, and only 600 stamina regen. This meant using Leeching Strikes or stamina cost / stamina return poisons. Shacklebreaker inproves that, but it is a set that you want to wear on both bars, otherwise your precious extra stam disappears when you switch bars. With my attacking skills now truly split between bars, the 5/5/1 setup also makes more sense, I think.

    I really love the versatility of this build. It's melee against flappy DKs and for just more damage from 2H / Concealed / Soul Harvest, it's also ranged, it's got AOE for boss fights, and it's got cloak, speed and surprisingly good defenses. I don't really miss Spinner. There are a lot of sorcs around, where that set never mattered anyway, and the IC bosses have less resistances than the target skeleton. With Spinner, Mark, Sharpened and light armor I was over-penetrating in the past.

    There's also the issue of what set to wear. I don't have Shadowrend, which would be interesting. Could go Necro for that, without using Shade. Skoria won't work with this build as it is now. No DOTS, other than Agony, with the advantage that the guaranteed crit from Shadowy Disguise will actually work properly. Infernal Guardian might be OK. Troll King is no longer needed. Bloodspawn is always a good option, but ... not really. I'm not particularly wanting further stam regen, nor resistances (since: shields), nor ulti gen (nice, but using cheap ultis already).
  • kaithuzar
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    You could do 1 ice heart + 1 kena, or if you wanted a full set, you could check out grothdar as even when you're in stealth, if it procs, you're still in stealth & it doesn't pull you out. Or even just 1 domihaus + 1 ice heart or kena.
    Edited by kaithuzar on September 7, 2017 6:21PM
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