Magsorc ridiculously OP

Zeuq · August 2017

Everyone here is bad

IAVITNI · August 2017

I've dueled people with 50k magicka on just about every mag class and a couple stam. The tools used may differ but the tactic is the same -> light pressure, wait for them to refresh shield, count to 5 or 6 and time cc with my burst. If they survive apply heavy pressure than start at beginning. I've stomped 50k magicka builds while running spinners lich on my msorc (So basically no extra damage) by doing the above. Put a little bit into siphoned and unless the sorc is running stam regen (amberplasm) they will struggle to break free after the 4th-5th cc. If you're losing to a msorc running amberplasm and complaining that sorc is op and not just dark deal than I can't help you. No matter how you change your build you will never beat them because it's a l2p issue.

Only thing op about sorc is dark deal. Everything else is set/generic skill related.

Metemsycosis · August 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

However, as you progress as a pvp player you will be always working towards these goals in a fight if your initial burst doesn't kill. As a result killing shieldstacking builds becomes second nature to good pvp'ers.

This is the reason why numerous experienced players are here with math and facts telling you sorc isn't strong while other players, some experienced some not, are in here with just their gut feeling. This is also the reason most good PVPers don't run shield stack builds, sorc or otherwise

Really? I do not think sorcs are op but i dont think i consider killing them indicative of becoming a better pvper. If i did what does that say about the sorc class relative to the average player?

Advice i had gotten about sorcs is knock out a shield while the other is down and immediately cc him/her. Even if the sorcs survives good chance you will too. In other words they can be pressured. And like cloaking nbs sometimes it is better to let a streaking sorc do just that. Go away

Btw through morrowind any class with excellent resource management can be deadly. Not exclusive to sorcs, at all.

Vapirko · August 2017

ForsakenSin wrote: »

you know every time when i see thread about nerf Sorc and how op they are im just going wow .. i really suck in pvp

I just don't understand it , so shield up 6 sec i get cc , brake cc i get ganked by nightblade shield up again set proc shield up fear cant brake dead..

. Shield up throw curse i get cc, brake cc shield up crystal frag misses ambush dead...

.. shield up curse ok getting good got SA i get him with SA he just use vigor and heals up like nothing ambush fear proc dead..

LOL i know i don't pvp much and yhea sometimes i get kills but always reading how amazing sorc are just makes me go damm i really need to l2p and when i am in pvp im always thinking.. need to get my NB up and running .

Easy way to kill sorc cc them twice and we are dead ..i wish i was OP as sorc as evrebody states we are ..sigh..

You need to use immovable pots and learn the duration of your abilities and cool downs and know when you need to engage your opponent and try to prevent them from CC'ing you. A lot of being a good pvper comes down to actually knowing how skills work and especially durations not just on your class but all others as well. This is by far imo the hardest step in becoming a good solo player. You can get all your gear and your rotation down and if you come up agaisnt a player who understands mechanics better than you you're dead.

Derra · August 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Lexxypwns · August 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

I'm glad that it is so easy to run someone with Harness Magicka out magicka. KappaClaus.

If the sorc is running harness then he's giving up bar space. He will be even easier to burst when his shields are down.

I'd like to introduce you and @derra to resource poisons.

Furthermore, if you're just shieldstacking you're doing nothing. If I just turtle on ANY class spec I can prolong a fight forever too, your straw man is bad.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Lexxypwns · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Derra · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

Are you trolling me?

I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.

I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.

This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).

It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.

Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:

Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.

Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst

Or

CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG

Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling

I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?

Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.

Apherius · August 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

1000000% agreed; excellent, excellent, post...

Proof of what you say can be seen ingame as I see soooooo many d@mn Magicka Sorcs in game nowadays; I was in a large group earlier where two guys logged off the character they were playing to log on their Magicka Sorcs...

When you see sooooo many people using a given class in an MMO, you can bet your life savings that that particular class is OP in some significant fashion...

Mag Sorcs are OP at current...

Anyone with their eyes open can see this...

" i was in a large group earlier " lmao.

Anyway maybe those guy were bored?

Yeah, a large group; I typically run solo or with a small group...

And no, they weren't bored, the group leader wanted more dps in the group, so...they both said we'll be back on our Mag Sorcs.

If they wanted the most burst dmg they would of went with mag nb's.

And by burst dmg he likely mean't destro ults.

Dps is a pve term as dps isn't useful in pve.

Once again, they went with Mag Sorcs and the group leader wanted more dps...

That's what happened in game and it showcases the point that Mag Sorcs are very popular right now...

Sure, you can argue that a Mag NB can do more burst, but they choose Mag Sorcs for a reason; from top to bottom they are the best...

The sheer quantity of Mag Sorcs you see ingame showcases that...

And what are you trying to get at anyway? Are you trying to say that the OP doesn't know what he's talking about and that Mag Sorcs are not OP?

It's not because they are many to be wrong that they are right.

Stamina are currently the Best DD in monocible, but these " stamina " prefer to create nerf sorc thread to focus all the attention on this class and don't be nerf.

Waffennacht · August 2017

@Derra no, I don't need to troll you. I do believe you're mistaken if you feel like shields are OP

Apherius · August 2017

And please , when you say that sorc are op and that all raid have 7/8 sorc dps, this would be good to give us some proof ... And i'm not talking about " PUg group " but about #1 in leaderboard ...

EU:

Vhof : 6 DK / 2 NB / 3 templar / 1 sorc
Vmol : 6 DK / 2 NB / 2 Templar / 2 sorc .
Vdsa : 1 DK / 1 NB / 1 Templar / 1 sorc .
Vso : 5 DK / 2 NB / 3 Templar / 2 Sorc
Vaa : 6 DK / 1 NB / 2 Templar / 2 Sorc ( yep 11 players )
Vhrc : 6 DK / 2 NB / 2 Templar / 2 Sorc

So much DK ... take the fact that 2 of these DK are tank ... 4 DK are DPS ... very strange no ? probably because the DK stam pull more dps than the magsorc.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Break free cost, last I remember, is 4872. CC immunity is what 8 seconds?

You have 1100 Stam Regen? Cool every 8 secs you get 4400 Stam.

If you Only ever CC break (no block, no dodge roll, no conversion etc) you'll just barely (with CP) make enough to do so.

So that's how I run people outta Stam, esp with Siphoner passivr

Derra · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra no, I don't need to troll you. I do believe you're mistaken if you feel like shields are OP

I do not believe shields are op (i also don´t believe sorc to be a particularly strong class outside of 1v1 pet builds).

I believe stacking harness + hardened against any build that triggers harness is op as it´s costfree defense that can not be broken by a single player.
Not all builds can access high burst combos (not that those allow you to break someone stacking high enough magica mind you).
You´re not breaking 25k stacked shields that have infinite stamina to back them up as a magica character.

I don´t think defense should be without a cost no matter the requirement and i don´t think you should be able to stall a fight by pushing 2 buttons.
I´m also in favor of nerfing resto ult, 1h+shield ult, permablock and whatnot. Basically everything that allows to create asinine gameplay situations where minimal effort on the defenders side results in "can´t touch me naenae".

I don´t use harness and people are most of t he time unable to break me - nor am i running out of magica (last time was in homestead with a 1100 rec build).

Metemsycosis · August 2017

So you would nerf the magicka return of harness?

Alpheu5 · August 2017

Wonder how people would fare if all abilities got the stacking cost treatment like Streak and roll dodging.

Derra · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Break free cost, last I remember, is 4872. CC immunity is what 8 seconds?

You have 1100 Stam Regen? Cool every 8 secs you get 4400 Stam.

If you Only ever CC break (no block, no dodge roll, no conversion etc) you'll just barely (with CP) make enough to do so.

So that's how I run people outta Stam, esp with Siphoner passivr

cc break costs me 4200 stamina.

with potions (figuring in siphoning from you without siphoning its 1590 - 190 reduced rec from siphoning is probably too much) i get ~1400 stamina recovery putting me at ~42000 (+ 16k base) stamina to spend per minute.

assuming you manage to cc me every time on cooldown (cc break + 7s immunity) - which is very very very unlikely - you can drain me 31500 stamina per minute.

That means i have 10k stamina + base pool to work with with every second you don´t cc me on cooldown providing me an extra 700 stamina buffer.

I have never ran out of stam against a single player ever since patch 1.3. Never.

Derra · August 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Wonder how people would fare if all abilities got the stacking cost treatment like Streak and roll dodging.

Would not work as classes with dots + hots would have tremendous advantages over spammy classes.

Literally every stam class would be gutted. magSorc and magblade would probably come out miles ahead of other classes.

Derra · August 2017

Metemsycosis wrote: »

So you would nerf the magicka return of harness?

I´d give harness a fixed returnrate tied to it´s full duration.

Effectively making it universally useful against stam and magica but reducing issues with spamming only harness + hardened creating infinite sustain against magica opponents.

Or make harness + hardened
and harness + warden absorb unstackable.

Biro123 · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Righty, it appears I have ruffled a few sorc's feathers in that they many have been searching for technicalities in what I am saying. Its not like I can't kill a sorc, or am consistently outplayed, as the waah l2p police say. Its that most of my fights on my DK/Templar with a sorc end in a stalemate against a much more damaging/mobile opponent because they can tank as well as me.

The main issue is: Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be this tanky without sacrificing something. The NB is an example of what I think is a well balanced class, good damage and movability, but they have to sacrifice tankiness, but still have a worth while defense.

Sorcs however a getting too big for their boots. We all know the issue is shields, and giving it similar counters to other old offenders, (Roll spam/permablock) would mean more would have to be invested in it for the same level of results.

See, that's the generic viewpoint I take issue with. Soo, if the sorc is more damaging, how can it be OK for you to survive him?
If you are less damaging, how can it not be OK for him to survive you?
Surely a stalemate = balance? Perhaps you don't like the mechanics involved in that, but balance is balance.

Derra · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Righty, it appears I have ruffled a few sorc's feathers in that they many have been searching for technicalities in what I am saying. Its not like I can't kill a sorc, or am consistently outplayed, as the waah l2p police say. Its that most of my fights on my DK/Templar with a sorc end in a stalemate against a much more damaging/mobile opponent because they can tank as well as me.

The main issue is: Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be this tanky without sacrificing something. The NB is an example of what I think is a well balanced class, good damage and movability, but they have to sacrifice tankiness, but still have a worth while defense.

Sorcs however a getting too big for their boots. We all know the issue is shields, and giving it similar counters to other old offenders, (Roll spam/permablock) would mean more would have to be invested in it for the same level of results.

See, that's the generic viewpoint I take issue with. Soo, if the sorc is more damaging, how can it be OK for you to survive him?
If you are less damaging, how can it not be OK for him to survive you?
Surely a stalemate = balance? Perhaps you don't like the mechanics involved in that, but balance is balance.

The issue is in general that stalemates are a very undesireable fightoutcome in a pvp game for a majority of the playerbase.

We play pvp to kill other players characters - not to stalemate them.

bardx86 · August 2017

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

Give me a break. I'm a Mag Sorc, I run Kag's, Infernal Guardian and Willpower (2 heavy 5 light), my shields are only about 17k with my 21k health, 36k magicka and 9k stam. I run the witchmother food for sustain with 1900 recovery and I run out of magicka all the time because of poisons. I think some classes have many advantages over Sorcs.

Take Streak/Ball Lightning, whether offensively or defensively, 2H Crit Rush, or the NB gap closer reaches further than we do, if you are running immovable pots, we don't get the stun. Same with frags, same with flaming reach, you don't get the knockdown so when your up close the 7 meter melee range is eating our shields and health.

6 seconds shields, what a joke, when you are taking damage you have to spam them. They are gone in a second or two, which is funny when you come across people like Faso, Xevenex, or Thetruelegend that seem to never lose their shields while eating damage from 5-6 guys and these Sorcs are nuking us down. rarely do you see any kind of animation AT ALL unless its a bar swap. There's no way they are simply that much better using the same skill set. They have some kind of edge.

Radiant Magelight, a joke. I still get insta-killed sometimes by NB's or anyone using a 2H build when hit from behind.

9k stam I'm lucky to get one block and a Dodge Roll out of it.

NB's, give me a break, guys like Mizaru and Miat nuke me in seconds, they dodge 9/10 of my attacks and hit me twice and I'm dead, that's with both shields up. When I do hit with flaming reach or frag, I'm lucky to get a 2k hit and thats with 3k spell damage. Plus that gap closer snare I can't move, lose all mobility.

I can't burn down a DK. I run out of magicka.

If I get gap closed, by the time I react and cast a shield, I've taken 5 hits from melee animation cancellers.

Defensive Rune, a joke, if you are insta-killed with a burst it doesn't protect you.

Healing Ward, sometimes it doesn't cast on you but someone else.

NB's can stealth even when using a Lightning Staff heavy attack.

Boundless Storm, the physical resistance is a joke, EVERY 2H attacks hits me for at least 7-8k, that's one shield I have to recast.

I noticed Templar Biting Jabs ignores my shields, I get my health burned down and my shields are still up.

Noticed lately I can't break free out of Fear, and half the time I get knocked down I can't get back up (I get knocked down! But can't get up again!) That should be the real song lyrics.

So anyone complaining probably has never played a Sorc. In 5 light 2 heavy you don't last long.

Exactly

exeeter702 · August 2017

bardx86 wrote: »

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

Give me a break. I'm a Mag Sorc, I run Kag's, Infernal Guardian and Willpower (2 heavy 5 light), my shields are only about 17k with my 21k health, 36k magicka and 9k stam. I run the witchmother food for sustain with 1900 recovery and I run out of magicka all the time because of poisons. I think some classes have many advantages over Sorcs.

Take Streak/Ball Lightning, whether offensively or defensively, 2H Crit Rush, or the NB gap closer reaches further than we do, if you are running immovable pots, we don't get the stun. Same with frags, same with flaming reach, you don't get the knockdown so when your up close the 7 meter melee range is eating our shields and health.

6 seconds shields, what a joke, when you are taking damage you have to spam them. They are gone in a second or two, which is funny when you come across people like Faso, Xevenex, or Thetruelegend that seem to never lose their shields while eating damage from 5-6 guys and these Sorcs are nuking us down. rarely do you see any kind of animation AT ALL unless its a bar swap. There's no way they are simply that much better using the same skill set. They have some kind of edge.

Radiant Magelight, a joke. I still get insta-killed sometimes by NB's or anyone using a 2H build when hit from behind.

9k stam I'm lucky to get one block and a Dodge Roll out of it.

NB's, give me a break, guys like Mizaru and Miat nuke me in seconds, they dodge 9/10 of my attacks and hit me twice and I'm dead, that's with both shields up. When I do hit with flaming reach or frag, I'm lucky to get a 2k hit and thats with 3k spell damage. Plus that gap closer snare I can't move, lose all mobility.

I can't burn down a DK. I run out of magicka.

If I get gap closed, by the time I react and cast a shield, I've taken 5 hits from melee animation cancellers.

Defensive Rune, a joke, if you are insta-killed with a burst it doesn't protect you.

Healing Ward, sometimes it doesn't cast on you but someone else.

NB's can stealth even when using a Lightning Staff heavy attack.

Boundless Storm, the physical resistance is a joke, EVERY 2H attacks hits me for at least 7-8k, that's one shield I have to recast.

I noticed Templar Biting Jabs ignores my shields, I get my health burned down and my shields are still up.

Noticed lately I can't break free out of Fear, and half the time I get knocked down I can't get back up (I get knocked down! But can't get up again!) That should be the real song lyrics.

So anyone complaining probably has never played a Sorc. In 5 light 2 heavy you don't last long.

Exactly

No not really. I stopped at "Kag's".

ak_pvp · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Righty, it appears I have ruffled a few sorc's feathers in that they many have been searching for technicalities in what I am saying. Its not like I can't kill a sorc, or am consistently outplayed, as the waah l2p police say. Its that most of my fights on my DK/Templar with a sorc end in a stalemate against a much more damaging/mobile opponent because they can tank as well as me.

The main issue is: Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be this tanky without sacrificing something. The NB is an example of what I think is a well balanced class, good damage and movability, but they have to sacrifice tankiness, but still have a worth while defense.

Sorcs however a getting too big for their boots. We all know the issue is shields, and giving it similar counters to other old offenders, (Roll spam/permablock) would mean more would have to be invested in it for the same level of results.

See, that's the generic viewpoint I take issue with. Soo, if the sorc is more damaging, how can it be OK for you to survive him?
If you are less damaging, how can it not be OK for him to survive you?
Surely a stalemate = balance? Perhaps you don't like the mechanics involved in that, but balance is balance.

Its not the stalemate I have an issue with. As I explained in the second part. That example I used was to show that a sorc that matches me in survivability has: More damage and more movability. (Quite a bit more too.) For balance to happen in PvP, it has to be a pick two situation. Sustain is down to the player.

I know that it seems like I am bashing on sorcs, I am not. Its just the shield aspect that I have an issue with, a few other players and you yourself have acknowledged there is a problem, derra even showing the maths behind perma shielding and it having no penalty.

loyalhabsfan · August 2017

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

Give me a break. I'm a Mag Sorc, I run Kag's, Infernal Guardian and Willpower (2 heavy 5 light), my shields are only about 17k with my 21k health, 36k magicka and 9k stam. I run the witchmother food for sustain with 1900 recovery and I run out of magicka all the time because of poisons. I think some classes have many advantages over Sorcs.

Take Streak/Ball Lightning, whether offensively or defensively, 2H Crit Rush, or the NB gap closer reaches further than we do, if you are running immovable pots, we don't get the stun. Same with frags, same with flaming reach, you don't get the knockdown so when your up close the 7 meter melee range is eating our shields and health.

6 seconds shields, what a joke, when you are taking damage you have to spam them. They are gone in a second or two, which is funny when you come across people like Faso, Xevenex, or Thetruelegend that seem to never lose their shields while eating damage from 5-6 guys and these Sorcs are nuking us down. rarely do you see any kind of animation AT ALL unless its a bar swap. There's no way they are simply that much better using the same skill set. They have some kind of edge.

Radiant Magelight, a joke. I still get insta-killed sometimes by NB's or anyone using a 2H build when hit from behind.

9k stam I'm lucky to get one block and a Dodge Roll out of it.

NB's, give me a break, guys like Mizaru and Miat nuke me in seconds, they dodge 9/10 of my attacks and hit me twice and I'm dead, that's with both shields up. When I do hit with flaming reach or frag, I'm lucky to get a 2k hit and thats with 3k spell damage. Plus that gap closer snare I can't move, lose all mobility.

I can't burn down a DK. I run out of magicka.

If I get gap closed, by the time I react and cast a shield, I've taken 5 hits from melee animation cancellers.

Defensive Rune, a joke, if you are insta-killed with a burst it doesn't protect you.

Healing Ward, sometimes it doesn't cast on you but someone else.

NB's can stealth even when using a Lightning Staff heavy attack.

Boundless Storm, the physical resistance is a joke, EVERY 2H attacks hits me for at least 7-8k, that's one shield I have to recast.

I noticed Templar Biting Jabs ignores my shields, I get my health burned down and my shields are still up.

Noticed lately I can't break free out of Fear, and half the time I get knocked down I can't get back up (I get knocked down! But can't get up again!) That should be the real song lyrics.

So anyone complaining probably has never played a Sorc. In 5 light 2 heavy you don't last long.

I'd consider your input if your build was reasonably good. It is not. Sorry but, pass.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Break free cost, last I remember, is 4872. CC immunity is what 8 seconds?

You have 1100 Stam Regen? Cool every 8 secs you get 4400 Stam.

If you Only ever CC break (no block, no dodge roll, no conversion etc) you'll just barely (with CP) make enough to do so.

So that's how I run people outta Stam, esp with Siphoner passivr

cc break costs me 4200 stamina.

with potions (figuring in siphoning from you without siphoning its 1590 - 190 reduced rec from siphoning is probably too much) i get ~1400 stamina recovery putting me at ~42000 (+ 16k base) stamina to spend per minute.

assuming you manage to cc me every time on cooldown (cc break + 7s immunity) - which is very very very unlikely - you can drain me 31500 stamina per minute.

That means i have 10k stamina + base pool to work with with every second you don´t cc me on cooldown providing me an extra 700 stamina buffer.

I have never ran out of stam against a single player ever since patch 1.3. Never.

So you're accounting for using Pots, well first off, I'd definitely duel you until you run of pots to use lol.

And you're also saying you won't block or dodge roll.

That makes targeting an opponent behind you difficult yes? (Plus eliminates sorc mobility)

Of course you're gonna do well, you're an experienced player - my point remains.

If you and I went at it, either one of could win. You wouldn't simply win because of the shield stacking - or if by some chance I couldn't get through your wards, you won't get through my permablock. Seems balanced imo

Betsararie · August 2017

Zeuq wrote: »

Everyone here is bad

the truth hurt bro

Waffennacht · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Zeuq wrote: »

Everyone here is bad

the truth hurt bro

Actually just by being on the forums, you become automatically better than 87% of the player base

IAVITNI · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Its not the stalemate I have an issue with. As I explained in the second part. That example I used was to show that a sorc that matches me in survivability has: More damage and more movability. (Quite a bit more too.) For balance to happen in PvP, it has to be a pick two situation. Sustain is down to the player.

Not to nit pick your posts (just commented on your dk thread xD) but you mention trade offs rather one sidedly. You consider the cross-class trade offs but ignore the internal-class trade offs. Yes a mag DK/Templar is tankier than a Sorc, but just because you couldn't kill the sorc does not mean the sorc is just as tanky as your dk/templar. DK/Templar is naturally tankier but their damage is also naturally lower than a sorc.

So some kindergarten math to convey my point:

Sorc has 2 hp, and each attack deals 2 damage.
DK has 4 hp, and each attack deals 1 damage.

Sorc vs DK--> Kill time is the same but the DK is still naturally tankier than the sorc. Yes a duel is a lot more complicated, but Hardened+Harness does the same thing as Vigor+Rally. Both allow you to go back on the offensive after being cast. Now their effectiveness may differ (not counting Rally burst heal), but tbh that has more to do with the pointless increased vigor cost and the difficulty of balancing dodge roll.

ak_pvp wrote: »

I know that it seems like I am bashing on sorcs, I am not. Its just the shield aspect that I have an issue with, a few other players and you yourself have acknowledged there is a problem, derra even showing the maths behind perma shielding and it having no penalty.

It seems like your bashing on sorcs because your comments seem biased. Again, saying perma shielding has no penalty is biased. There is a penalty. Lets assume my only shield is Hardened. If I'm perma shielding I'm not doing any damage and I am draining my resources big time. The problem isn't perma shielding. That's like saying perma HoTs is OP. The problem is shield stacking, and only stacking Harness + Hardened due to the infinite sustain vs magicka.

1v1 vs a stam class, you're not going going to have infinite shielding without weaving in a heavy attack. 1v1 vs a mag class, and you both have the same broken mechanic, so technically balanced? If I'm fighting 5 stam classes all spamming crit rush and not dying to my Dawnbreaker burst because they aren't potatoes, my Magicka pool is gone in a matter of seconds. now throw in a Magicka class as one of the 5 and my life gets a lot easier. So maybe sorc shields aren't broken, but Harness is?

Not saying M sorc doesn't need fine tuning. Amberplasm is over performing in combination with dark conversion. This combo gives sorcs infinite magicka and the ability to dodge roll frequently.

Before a sorc nerf actually foes through, they need to balance dark exchange + morphs and Harness magicka. I know people complain about Mage Wrath too. It serves as both a proactive and reactive execute. it shouldn't do both. Diminish its ability to reactively execute and it should be in a good place (ex. it only deals full execute damage after 2 seconds. <2 seconds the execute portion is half)

Magicka sorc is actually well balanced as a class overall, barring the aforementioned skill and maybe some slight number adjustments. Most other classes are simply imbalanced. If you place a balanced class beside an imbalanced class, then ya, the balanced class is going to look op.

Betsararie · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Zeuq wrote: »

Everyone here is bad

the truth hurt bro

Actually just by being on the forums, you become automatically better than 87% of the player base

I am in the top 0000001. sorry meant wealth. didn't mean for that to slip out

Do you want to argue?