Please rework Necropotence

Transairion
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Necropotence was designed with a singular purpose in mind, and has trundled along fufilling that niche purpose for years. But now post Morrowind in the era of "stack all the Magicka" it suddenly needs to be nerfed hard, for a reason unrelated to it's entire purpose even?
Item Sets
  • Necropotence: Reduced the Max Magicka increase granted by this Item Set to 3150 from 4000

Please remember: Necropotence was designed pure and simple to empower Combat Pets. It was introduced early in the game's history to empower Daedric Summoning Sorcerors (at the time, considered the game's joke build) as Max Magicka was the only stat those Combat Pets scaled from. Nightblades Summon Shade also worked to proc it, but since they do such little damage Nightblades used Necropotence for "free" Max Magicka, while the Warden and their bears didn't yet exist in the realm of possibility. It is literally the only set of gear in the entire game based around combat pet empowerment.

Necropotence was a niche set, unpopular even on Magicka Sorcs as their pets were "trash tier" so the only users of Necro were Nightblades for the longest time (immortal, single slot pets on a timer). When the game scaled up to VR16, Necro remained capped out at VR14 level gear... it wasn't really until One Tamriel scaled everything to the player Necro saw some resurgence, even on Pet Sorcs (pets eventually received scaling with crit as well). Then of course the eventual Volatile Familiar bugfix led to the "pet meta", Morrowind led to "stack Magicka, oh look a set with 4000 magicka" and here we are.


But now Necro is being nerfed by a whopping 850 magicka, almost 1/4... and compared to the stamina variant it's looking kind of stupid now:
New Draugr Hulk
(2 items) Adds 989 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 989 Max Stamina
(4 items) Adds 989 Max Stamina
(5 items) Adds 2540 Max Stamina
(+5507 Stamina)
New Necropotence
(2 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(5 items) While you have pets active, increase Max Magicka by 3150
(+6117 Magicka)

Wow, so having to keep Combat Pets alive (outside Shades which can't be killed) for any benefit compared to just putting Hulk on and having 100% uptime is only worth a 610 difference now? =/
For added sillyness, here's the new Destruction Mastery too:
New Destruction Mastery
(2 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 689 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 140Spell Damage
(5 items) While you have a Destruction Staff equipped, your Max Magicka is increased by 2521
(+3510 Magicka)

Yeah, using a Destruction Staff and only that staff is worth 1997 less resources than just wearing Draugr Hulk. Shields OP but Vigor is fine I guess? I don't like to PvP, who knows. But it looks really incredibly dumb having no requirement gear give greater resources or near equal returns to gear that has a strict requirement to be met. But I'm getting off track and rambling a bit:

Necropotence

It was designed for empowering Combat Pets at a time when Max Magicka was the only scaling they actually had. Now they have other (crit) scaling and the game has changed, and Max Stat spam sets seem to be an issue (IIRC this is Necropotence's first ever nerf in the history of ESO, stealth OP for years huh?) Necropotence is better off being reworked back to it's original purpose rather than being dragged along to be used for the meta then discarded like a snot-covered tissue.

So, I propose the only Combat Pet focused set in the game retain it's original purpose and look a little something like this:
Proposed New Necropotence
(2 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(5 items) Your pets do an additional 20% damage

Sorceror summons, Nightblade Shades and Warden Bears are all effected. It could even be extended to buff Morkuldin (crafted), Maw of the Infernal (monster) and Shadowrend (monster) armor sets and increase their viability as DPS options, which they are terribly struggling to get out of joke status in the realm of proc sets like Selene. Maybe Shadowrend isn't so much a DPS option, but it does do damage so I'll include it. We won't talk about that Infector set with the 5 second summon until it gets a 15 second duration and actually... functions properly.


Alternatively, here's a similar one but with scaling per pet present:
Alternative Necropotence
(2 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 989 Max Magicka
(5 items) Your pets do an additional 5% damage for every pet you have active
(Pets from other players DO NOT COUNT, only your own summons/procs!!)

This version instead scales with the number of pets active at once: Wardens would only get 5% with just the Bear, Nightblades would get 5-10% (depending on Shade morph) and Sorcerors 5-15% if they have Familiar, Twilight AND Storm Antronach Ult all fighting at once. But once you throw armor sets into the mix it can climb even higher (defensive pets like Sentinel of Rkumganz, Engine Guardian would count while active). The highest possible combo would be +25% damage, requiring Morkuldin, Maw of Infernal/Shadowrend and all three Sorceror summons active at one time... which also happens to requiring said Sorc to be dual-weilding to get that many set pieces, and takes all 12 weapon/armor slots. A true pet build, none of this "lol one pet slotted for Necro I'm golden" nonsense.

That's just my initial thinking, I'm sure someone can crunch the numbers far better than I could. But the fact remains Necropotence is a combat pet based set... always has been. If it just gets slapped around to deal with shield scaling and max magicka stacking and loses too much Magicka, what purpose will it serve anymore?

Again, it's literally been the only Combat Pet empowering set since it was first introduced... we should get to at least keep the one set we have. Without the +4000 magicka on the final set bonus, would anyone other than dedicated pet users what to use it anymore? It won't be jacking up shields anytime soon.
  • Biro123
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    I use my pet for healing, not damage. :disappointed:
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  • Gothren
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    the percentage damage increase would hurt pet shield defense alot. they already don't scale with bastion and this will make them die much faster.
    Edited by Gothren on August 7, 2017 6:31PM
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    After the 2,3, and 4 piece see the 13.3% buff, you end up with about 400 more magicka when your pets are down, and only about 400 less (than live) when pets are up.

    It's hardly a game breaking or set-shelving change.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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  • Subversus
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    Edit: after reading your thread, even though it started off with a somewhat triggering statement, I support it.

    It's actually a great suggestion, 5% damage per pet, additive, sounds great! It wouldn't *** it up for pve and nerf the *** in pvp...
    Edited by Subversus on August 7, 2017 6:38PM
  • DDuke
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    I wouldn't mind Necropotence being reworked to be more pet oriented, but please don't compare Necropotence & Draugr.

    1000 Stamina=+37 (+18.5 in PvP) health/second from Vigor
    1000 Magicka=+480 Hardened Ward strength (+240 in PvP) or +483 Dampen Magic (7 light) strength (+241.5 in PvP)

    That's without even accounting the fact that magicka bonuses have much more modifiers available to increase them - the only stamina modifier is Bound Armaments for stam sorcs only (+8%).


    There's no comparison to be made, shields scale much, much better than anything stamina has to offer.
  • Xvorg
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    Problem is not necro, problem is dmg associated to max stats (stam/mag)

    Since stam has cheaper skills, it sounds logic to have a smaller pool, but if that's gonna affect dmg, it is unfair.
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  • Subversus
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    @DDuke yeah the fact that he compared vigor to huge necro shields triggered me, but his suggestion is actually very good. Pet dmg is not the problem in pvp, it's the shields. Shields are not the problem in pve, it's the dmg. So it would actually do good for both, imo.
  • Gothren
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    Subversus wrote: »
    How can you compare a 12k uncrittable shield (that can be considered burst health) to a heal over time that's decent at best is beyond me.

    0 spell and physical resist. you take full damage, a cp tree dedicated to increase dps against them, oblivion damage, shieldbreaker, and a very squishy target once shields are down
  • Subversus
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    @Gothren if that was the case, pet sorcs wouldn't be the absolute best 1v1 class at the moment, and their 12k shields would be really ***. Please.
  • Gothren
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    Subversus wrote: »
    @Gothren if that was the case, pet sorcs wouldn't be the absolute best 1v1 class at the moment, and their 12k shields would be really ***. Please.

    they are not the best. that argument is null and void when you are talking about experiened players who have the burst to take them down fast. iv seen it, but you don't want to talk about that.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    Gothren wrote: »
    Subversus wrote: »
    How can you compare a 12k uncrittable shield (that can be considered burst health) to a heal over time that's decent at best is beyond me.

    0 spell and physical resist. you take full damage, a cp tree dedicated to increase dps against them, oblivion damage, shieldbreaker, and a very squishy target once shields are down

    Please, for the sake of your argument, don't try to add champion points in that discussion.

    First off, there is Bastion that also gives +25% shield strength, so exactly the same percentage shattering blows grant.

    Second, to invest into shattering means you gain a situational advantage. Putting 20 points into it means I can put 20 points less in e.g. master at arms. The bonus of shattering is wasted if there is no damage shield on my opponent. And if there is a damage shield on my opponent, precise strikes and piercing are nullified. But on the other hand, investing in bastion will always be good for a shield user since one aspires 100% uptime on a shield in combat.

    But other than that I can agree with what you said, even if I think 0 phys & spell resistance get voided by infinite crit resist and oblivion damage is a problem for everyone else too.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 7, 2017 7:05PM
  • DDuke
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    Gothren wrote: »
    Subversus wrote: »
    How can you compare a 12k uncrittable shield (that can be considered burst health) to a heal over time that's decent at best is beyond me.

    0 spell and physical resist. you take full damage, a cp tree dedicated to increase dps against them, oblivion damage, shieldbreaker, and a very squishy target once shields are down

    0 resistances, but also zero crits. Assuming you're using Vigor as a medium armor user, you have between 10-17% mitigation from armor (depends on target's penetration). 7x Impenetrable=28% crit resistance.

    Assuming your opponent has around 180% crit modifier, you'll still be taking 52% extra damage from crits, though we can also assume you have 19 points in Resistant, rounding that number down to 44%.

    Now, lets assume your opponent has 50% crit chance (fairly standard), the amount of damage you mitigate with shield is around 22%, which is a lot more than medium armor.

    Oblivion damage hits everyone (from permablocker to shield spammer) & if you really got Shieldbreaker equipped as stam build, you're turning yourself into an AP piñata when playing against other stamina builds.
    Edited by DDuke on August 7, 2017 7:14PM
  • Alpheu5
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    It was Shadows of the Hist where Necro was scaled up to cp160, but it was barred behind the bosses of AA and thus, required some degree of dedication to obtain a full set. It was with One Tamriel that it was able to be obtained by the average Joe.

    It's a powerful set and should have been kept behind a difficulty barrier worth its power.
    Edited by Alpheu5 on August 7, 2017 7:57PM
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  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    While i dont agree with the OP, what i would like to see for necropotence is...

    5pc Gain 2180 max magica (Double the 2-3-4pc bonuses - down from 4k and 3150) plus
    5pc Summoned pets will not despawn from bar swapping as long as they are on one of your bars, if you bar swap to bars where they are not slotted you obviously cannot trigger their "on-click" specials but they continue to perform normally.


    That cuts back on the damage/maxmag gain from the set but still leaves it noticable while giving the set and several of the classes running it a major functional bonus - not having to double bar pets.

    But thats how i see things.

    Not everyone's cup of tea, i am sure.

    I time it out to maybe 17 nano-jiffies before some trial overlord or pvp godling points out that it yields 3 less damage over 45 minutes and so is utter trash not worth considering.

    :-)


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  • MLGProPlayer
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    It would need something like +299 spell damage (or more) on the 5pc to be relevant.

    +20% pet damage doesn't buff your non-pet ability damage, while +4000 magicka did.
  • Tyrobag
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    While i dont agree with the OP, what i would like to see for necropotence is...


    5pc Summoned pets will not despawn from bar swapping as long as they are on one of your bars, if you bar swap to bars where they are not slotted you obviously cannot trigger their "on-click" specials but they continue to perform normally.

    Definitely the right idea, but in the wrong place. This should be standard, not require a set bonus. Then they can nerf the heck out of necropotance
    Edited by Tyrobag on August 7, 2017 8:33PM
  • Feanor
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Oblivion damage hits everyone (from permablocker to shield spammer) & if you really got Shieldbreaker equipped as stam build, you're turning yourself into an AP piñata when playing against other stamina builds.

    You are not. You simply run in a group to cover the weaknesses and blow up all shield users even faster.

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  • SirMewser
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    I farmed my vet 12 Necropotence back in the day, golded it out...
    Then came vet 16 and Necropotence was left behind.
    Almost a year later with the arrival of Orsinium I farmed dailies for months to get Trinimac's Valor.
    Then came a stealth nerf that made Trinimac only proc 20% when using a damage shield ability, down from 20% chance per damage shield casted.
    Almost another year later Necropotence arrived in AA, I farmed the *** out of it...
    Then with one Tamriel it became an overworld set.
    I then tried to save up for gold jewelry from the Golden-One in Cyrodiil.
    Then guess what? This nerf happened...

    I may as well farm Mother's Sorrow, all of its bonuses have been buffed and pet's can benefit from it.
    Honestly tired of trying and caring about playing a pet build, yet, it's pretty much the only reason why I play this game and continue to buy DLCs but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

    ZoS has done some great things like adding pet active skills and returning sets, but the fact that they bounce around to the point that doing any sort of farming will make efforts inconsequential in the near future.
    It's not like pet builds have fun rotations considering; they take up so many bar slots, self buffs to make them optimal, and require active buffs to shield them and make them deal better single target damage.
    Edited by SirMewser on August 7, 2017 9:24PM
  • STEVIL
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    Tyrobag wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    While i dont agree with the OP, what i would like to see for necropotence is...


    5pc Summoned pets will not despawn from bar swapping as long as they are on one of your bars, if you bar swap to bars where they are not slotted you obviously cannot trigger their "on-click" specials but they continue to perform normally.

    Definitely the right idea, but in the wrong place. This should be standard, not require a set bonus. Then they can nerf the heck out of necropotance

    Hey look, i have been arguing for an "overtime" passive forever, that gives 3/6s of wiggle room on swaps for toggles... if i can get it thru a set, that makes the set worthwhile and not nec overpowered - a win-win.
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  • Vaoh
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    Great write-up! All we want from this set is to be desirable on a combat Pet build.

    But anyway, the issue here is you are speaking to ZOS like they care about feedback. I am going to store my Necropotence for awhile until they decide too many people are wearing Julianos and nerf that too :lol: they run mostly off of metrics, not logic.
    Edited by Vaoh on August 7, 2017 10:20PM
  • MLGProPlayer
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    SirMewser wrote: »
    I farmed my vet 12 Necropotence back in the day, golded it out...
    Then came vet 16 and Necropotence was left behind.
    Almost a year later with the arrival of Orsinium I farmed dailies for months to get Trinimac's Valor.
    Then came a stealth nerf that made Trinimac only proc 20% when using a damage shield ability, down from 20% chance per damage shield casted.
    Almost another year later Necropotence arrived in AA, I farmed the *** out of it...
    Then with one Tamriel it became an overworld set.
    I then tried to save up for gold jewelry from the Golden-One in Cyrodiil.
    Then guess what? This nerf happened...

    I may as well farm Mother's Sorrow, all of its bonuses have been buffed and pet's can benefit from it.
    Honestly tired of trying and caring about playing a pet build, yet, it's pretty much the only reason why I play this game and continue to buy DLCs but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

    ZoS has done some great things like adding pet active skills and returning sets, but the fact that they bounce around to the point that doing any sort of farming will make efforts inconsequential in the near future.
    It's not like pet builds have fun rotations considering; they take up so many bar slots, self buffs to make them optimal, and require active buffs to shield them and make them deal better single target damage.

    ZOS might as well remove pets from the game because they obviously don't want people to play them.
  • Strider_Roshin
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    Having the 5th focused on buffing your pet damage is a pretty solid suggestion. I approve :-)
  • MLGProPlayer
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    Having the 5th focused on buffing your pet damage is a pretty solid suggestion. I approve :-)

    Again though, it won't be enough.

    1000 magicka = ~95 spell damage

    The extra magicka not only buffed your pet damage, but also your ability damage (it just didn't affect light/heavy attacks). Buffing pet damage only would leave the rest of your abilities dealing no damage.
  • ccfeeling
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    What I read is... NEC needs much more buffs than orginal ? OMG...
    TBH , It's still a good set even a little bit reduced .
    NEC is tradable , easy farming in open world , trait collecting is easy.
    Golden jewels sometimes selling in golden vendor weekend .

    It's absolutely an easy mode set for all magicka classes!
  • MLGProPlayer
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    What I read is... NEC needs much more buffs than orginal ? OMG...
    TBH , It's still a good set even a little bit reduced .
    NEC is tradable , easy farming in open world , trait collecting is easy.
    Golden jewels sometimes selling in golden vendor weekend .

    It's absolutely an easy mode set for all magicka classes!

    Only 2 classes have pets...

    And Julianos and Mother's Sorrow are "easy mode" too, yet they got buffs to bump them into the meta (Julianos was already there to begin with).
  • Derra
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    DDuke wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind Necropotence being reworked to be more pet oriented, but please don't compare Necropotence & Draugr.

    1000 Stamina=+37 (+18.5 in PvP) health/second from Vigor
    1000 Magicka=+480 Hardened Ward strength (+240 in PvP) or +483 Dampen Magic (7 light) strength (+241.5 in PvP)

    That's without even accounting the fact that magicka bonuses have much more modifiers available to increase them - the only stamina modifier is Bound Armaments for stam sorcs only (+8%).


    There's no comparison to be made, shields scale much, much better than anything stamina has to offer.

    Now figure in that heals interact with block reducing all incoming dmg by atleast 50% (which is the drawback for stamina builds that can´t block - heals have to be balanced in mind for being used on characters that can).
    Now figure in that the increase for vigor can´t be calculated by 1s you need to take the increase for the whole cast (as you do for shields) and has aoe potential.
    Now figure in that heals do very much scale with weapon/spelldmg.

    I´m not saying shields are fine. I´m just saying your assessment is highly biased and making biased statements does not help resolving imbalances.
    Edited by Derra on August 8, 2017 7:49AM
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  • Brrrofski
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    I know the 2,3,4 piece got buffed, but if any set has magica or crit there (Julianos for example) that got buffed too.

    Julianos is going to wipe the floor with necro.
  • Johnnny
    Johnnny
    1. I think pets on pvp are a really dumb thing. Im fine with them on PVE.
    2. The nerf wasn't really big, it can stay like that. PVE sorcs where mostly using pets and necro, it was outshining almost anything a sorc could do.
    3. shieldstacking isn't that much of a problem on pvp, at least as far as I see. You use a ton of magicka to stack a 2 7k shields that have no defense and can easily be bursted down. If your opponent has pressure, at least in no cp you can't keep shields up for so long. Some builds are even dropping harness magicka. I switched it for dampen magicka and then just gave up on both and am using boundless storm instead. I use hardened ward and healing ward because, when my shields are down from pressure I usually get instakilled with procs.

    That doesn't mean sorcs are weak, of course, but I don't think the shielding is the problem. Resto ult and streak are just really strong, imo.

    Btw, I might agree with OP, reverting the buffs for pet dmg could mean pet sorcs are more about pets and could keep up on pve. PVP I woudn't care if they just disappeared.
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  • Derra
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    I know the 2,3,4 piece got buffed, but if any set has magica or crit there (Julianos for example) that got buffed too.

    Julianos is going to wipe the floor with necro.

    Especially since people overlook that pets scale on two stats.

    Pets scale with the players maxmagica for their basedamage - but they also scale with the players critvalue (not modifiers though).
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