In addition - OP's challenge was completed as far back as June 2016 and the best score I have done VMA on that toon was 530k albeit the only difference is my stats are 34/0/30. I see no reason why the character would be unable to complete it now since it got a gargantuan buff in Morrowind.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Here is a completed hybrid build wih a roughly equal damage distribution between physical and magical damage. The build works by stacking max magicka and max weapon damage.

This is a PvP build for he most part, but I have completed most of the Morrowind world bosses solo with this build. I think it would have potential in VMSA if I switched skills to a more damage over time spec. Otherwise it's sustain and survivability would be more then fine for VMSA.

Here's a build link wih gameplay if you guys are interested: https://youtu.be/tp-09x2A1-U

I also have a very detailed hybrid build gear guide, showing multiple different hybrid build gear setups for different types of hybrid specs.
https://youtu.be/qF3LaYfNTaU

One of the key talking points concerning hybrid viability is allowing players to disperse attributes as they so desire, with the only penalty (ideally) being frequency of skill usage due to the size of the attribute pools. Though I'm not discrediting the builds in these videos as hybrids, I do recognize that your hybrid potential is being limited because you are forced to put most of your attribute points into one particular stat.

I would love to see ZOS recognize that a 22/21/21 divide really isn't viable for all content as a non-tank, and make adjustments accordingly.

Your definition of hybrid in ESO is just wrong. So you are saying Jack's builds aren't hybrid builds? Simple question, are Jack's builds hybrid builds? Yes/No? Just Yes or No. If you try to talk gibberish and avoid to give a Yes/No answer, I will take it as a Yes.

Like pure builds, hybrid builds also need to be optimized. There are bad pure builds, and there are bad hybrid builds, your hybrid build is a bad build overall, no on in the right mind would split points into a 22/21/21 especially when building a hybrid.

That's the point (see bold). One of my main arguments is that a 22/21/21 divide shouldn't impact power of skills, only provide a near equal divide of resource availability.

So you decided to talk gibberish instead of answering the question. As I have said earlier, it means you agree with me that Jack's builds are hybrid builds, so your definition of hybrid is wrong, which means your argument is invalid.

The 22/21/21 divide is as hybrid as it gets, and you're saying that definition of a hybrid is wrong? The way you are phrasing your argument doesn't work. You're demanding a yes or no answer for a question that doesn't have a yes or no answer. Think of hybrids on a spectrum - it's not a yes or no scenario. While certain builds have hybrid-like features, I find it hard to call a build that places 64 attribute points into a single attribute a "true" hybrid.

And you're missing the main point. The attribute scaling system makes your build significantly weaker than other builds if you want to, say... put a 22/21/21 divide into your attribute points. Why should a build that gets as hybrid-like as possible be punished?

Edit: Typo

You seem to not have seen the video at all, yes I have 64 in magicka, I also focus on weapon damage. I did his because magicka scales the best for Magick damage (vs spell dmg) and weapon damage scales the best for physical damage (vs max stam)

This results in a hybrid build that takes full potential of the games building intricacies to provide the best outgoing damage for the two pools.

If you wanted to do your atribute split, it would be better for a pelinals build that has even weapon and spell damage. As for placing points into HP on a hybrid build, well if you were looking to have damage on it that's one of the best ways to shoot yourself in the foot right off the bat. Hybrids also use tri stat glyphs, meaning they already natural have higher hp then most pure specs.

The hardest part about a hybrid is building it right.

Again, that's the point. I argue that players shouldn't be penalized for putting points into health - hence the argument in favor of removing attribute scaling and the weapon and spell damage divide.

Investing is health is good for tanks, hybrid damage builds aren't really tanks

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

In addition - OP's challenge was completed as far back as June 2016 and the best score I have done VMA on that toon was 530k albeit the only difference is my stats are 34/0/30. I see no reason why the character would be unable to complete it now since it got a gargantuan buff in Morrowind.

Agree. He's still posing the same argument, at least as of about a week ago. Although he says a character needs to also put an equal amount of attributes into health as went towards stam and magicka which doesn't compute.

It computes. Read the first post. The whole point of my argument is that ZOS has constructed a system in which building into 3 stats (health, magicka, stamina) hurts skill effectiveness (because most skills scale on either magicka or stamina).

Just because hybrid-like builds with 2 stat splits (magicka and stamina) can work under certain conditions doesn't mean that all hybrids are viable. Why exclude an entire attribute (health) and the possibility of a 3 stat hybrid? I argue that the only penalty one should have for wanting to put points into health is less casts from resource pools (stamina and magicka).

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

In addition - OP's challenge was completed as far back as June 2016 and the best score I have done VMA on that toon was 530k albeit the only difference is my stats are 34/0/30. I see no reason why the character would be unable to complete it now since it got a gargantuan buff in Morrowind.

Agree. He's still posing the same argument, at least as of about a week ago. Although he says a character needs to also put an equal amount of attributes into health as went towards stam and magicka which doesn't compute.

It computes. Read the first post. The whole point of my argument is that ZOS has constructed a system in which building into 3 stats (health, magicka, stamina) hurts skill effectiveness (because most skills scale on either magicka or stamina).

Just because hybrid-like builds with 2 stat splits (magicka and stamina) can work under certain conditions doesn't mean that all hybrids are viable. Why exclude an entire attribute (health) and the possibility of a 3 stat hybrid? I argue that the only penalty one should have for wanting to put points into health is less casts from resource pools (stamina and magicka).

It does not compute with obvious game design and what the devs stated in the piece you linked does not mean that players cannot come up with bad builds. Your idea is a bad build. As a result your challenge is not reasonable.

That's the point. It's a bad build because of the attribute scaling system. The challenge is meant to show that it needs to change.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.

If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.

According to some of Woeler's builds which Alcast refers to in at least one of his builds, many tanks are hybrid builds.
@Alcast @Woeler

The most recent comment in this thread is hilarious considering the previous dialogue

Not trying to be that guy but I have a hybrid and made it to maelstrom arena round 4 normal and I got tamiel hero title

Pelenials needs it's 3 and 4 piece bonus doubled.

See, necros already exist.

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit on 3/1/18: Tomorrow would be a great opportunity for @ZOS_RichLambert to prove hybrid viability on the ESO Live stream of VMA.

Original post from April 2017:
In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.

If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.

using pelinals would be a terrible idea for an even split.. If I'm not mistaken the entire idea behind that set is to make the lower of the two stats equivalent to the highest, in terms of their influence on attacks and damage, right? So then how would the build work by splitting them and making them pretty much even?

The original post was from back in April 2017, but now that Shacklebreaker exists it would be the wiser choice. If the creative director were to actually try this tomorrow then something like the following build would be decent:

5 piece Shacklebreaker
5 piece Amberplasm
1 piece Kena
1 piece Domihaus

These sets work nicely enough together. The two parts that would really hurt is when we get into 1) dividing attributes to have health/magicka/stamina as equal as possible, and 2) dividing champion points in a way that splits them evenly across damage stars that you normally wouldn't mix. These two areas are where the definition of hybrid (if we take it in its most literal sense as it applies to a build) hurts the most.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.

The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.

Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.

The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.

So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?

I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.

If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.

So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?

Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".

What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?

I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.

Okay, so I have to ask if your issue is that damage scales off attributes, why not make a thread clearly stating that's what the issue is and why you feel hybrids are not helped by it.

Rather than the round about way of asking ZOS to show you that hybrids are viable, which as I've already said outside of competitive (leaderboard) play they are.

I'm sorry you're struggling to understand the point, but I think it's worded fine enough for people to understand. The purpose of asking ZOS to prove their stance on hybrids is that if they can prove me wrong, then they are right and nothing should change.

But if they cannot prove me wrong - if they cannot complete VMA with a hybrid defined build, then my point is that they need to reevaluate their stance that hybrids are viable, and attempt to strengthen them. And as I stated in the original post, I advocate for ZOS to consider changes to attribute scaling and the divide of weapon and spell damage.

Can we quit beating this dead horse before they do something that is going to get us all nerfed.

Everyone has a different definiton of what a "Hybrid Build" is. There are certainly Hybrid builds around, but you do not usually see a lot of them.

I do think Hybrids can be effective, but there is not a lot of theorycrafting being done and thus I do not think there is a lot of "optimized" hybrid builds.

Hardest thing is how to define "Hybrid". Because A LOT of setups already use Magicka and Stamina skills, maybe for ZOS this is already enough to call builds "Hybrids".

Alcast wrote: »

Everyone has a different definiton of what a "Hybrid Build" is. There are certainly Hybrid builds around, but you do not usually see a lot of them.

I do think Hybrids can be effective, but there is not a lot of theorycrafting being done and thus I do not think there is a lot of "optimized" hybrid builds.

Hardest thing is how to define "Hybrid". Because A LOT of setups already use Magicka and Stamina skills, maybe for ZOS this is already enough to call builds "Hybrids".

It's not hard to define "Hybrid." There are dictionaries for this exact purpose. The only part that remains is to find which definitions are applicable to making a build in ESO. I've put the definitions that are applicable in bold (within the spoiler tag):

Considering the multitude of options available when constructing a build, the definition that best applies is "something heterogeneous in origin or composition" because we are composing builds with a diverse selection of components.

ZOS could certainly argue against the weight of burden that each component within the composition has to uphold the integrity of the definition (example: they could argue that a damage build with all 64 attribute points in stamina, with 5 Spriggan, 5 Automaton, and 2 Kra'gh as armor, and CP into physical damage nodes could be a "hybrid" as long as a single skill that consumes magicka to harm an enemy is present in the rotation). They would be within the outskirts of the definition as it pertains to builds, but you're right in saying that it is possible they think that way.

If distribution of components within the composition of a build were measured equally to the best of the creator's ability, then we see (very close to) equal distribution of burden across all components (which, I argue, is about as "hybrid" as it gets). For example, even distribution would likely include the following:

- an even divide of magicka, stamina, and health attributes
- an even divide of magicka recovery, stamina recovery, and health recovery
- an even split between weapon and spell damage
- an even split between weapon critical and spell critical
- an even split between physical penetration and spell penetration
- an even split of champion points between physical damage and spell damage

If such a build were to be constructed, then the question becomes... Does this equal distribution build better fit the definition of a "hybrid" build than, for example, the aforementioned 64 attribute points in stamina, with 5 Spriggan, 5 Automaton, and 2 Kra'gh as armor, and CP into physical damage nodes with a single magicka consumption skill that damages an enemy, build? If the answer is yes, then I would hope that ZOS would more closely examine their definition of hybrid and contemplate appropriate changes to enhance viability of what appears to be a better definition of "hybrid" builds.

@Alcast