3/2/18 ESO Live Stream: ZOS, I Challenge You to Prove Your Stance on Hybrid Builds

Wifeaggro13

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.

If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.

The problem with viable is split, is it viable to do 90% of the content with said build?. then the answer is Yes. the problem arises is the game design is built around meta DPS and nothing else. Survivability, utility, and CC are not needed at all in almost all the VR content matter o fact its preferred your load out be very DPS centric in the end game . its why we have so many useless CC and utility abilities in PVE . hybrid builds are subjective, but I consider them something like a bard role orCC debuff role. but they do not exist in ESO all that stuff is secondary effects or useless wasted slot as the pure abilites offer very litte benefit to said DPS numbers , but if your talking a mix of stam and Magica builds they exist and can perform just not as well as the meta.

leepalmer95

True hybrids died with Cp and soft cap removal.

Theres a few builds left but they're utility builds.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

I'd be happy for them to create any build and do VMA.

Because I don't think any one of the Devs has a clue on how to play the game "live" at all; they "test" in their little dev-mode settings and have no clue what actually happens in the game.

A Dev.
Any build.
No "cheated" gear.
Run VMA.
Video or it didn't happen.

I bet I'll win the lottery, twice, before we see that.

All The Best

GrumpyDuckling

leepalmer95 wrote: »

True hybrids died with Cp and soft cap removal.

Theres a few builds left but they're utility builds.

And then Morrowind comes around and significantly harms sustain, especially for hybrid builds.

Bouldercleave

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

Viable does not mean able to complete ALL content.

The same holds true to the fact that I can min/max and still not complete ALL content.

GrumpyDuckling

Bouldercleave wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

Viable does not mean able to complete ALL content.

The same holds true to the fact that I can min/max and still not complete ALL content.

Why not?

Bouldercleave

Why should it?

Hybrid builds are currently possible for 99% of the game. Just because it's difficult to impossible to beat ONE aspect of the game with a hybrid build does NOT make them non-viable.

Integral1900

A hybrid is a compromise by nature, I've poured millions of gold and god knows how many reasorces into making one that works but you just end up with a kind of tank or a mix of that and a dps. They can be fairly hard to kill as they have so much utility but they are never going to be a decent dps or a an effective vet tank. Other than normal dungeons they are a walking liability.

You might be able to do it if the hybrid set from the Gold Coast came with an absolute mountain of damage boosting stats or if it copied crit as well as weapon power but until then it's just not going to work. I would love to do it but that set will need one of the biggest buffs the game has ever seen to make it work

GrumpyDuckling

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Why should it?

Hybrid builds are currently possible for 99% of the game. Just because it's difficult to impossible to beat ONE aspect of the game with a hybrid build does NOT make them non-viable.

Then they aren't viable. They're almost viable.

Bonzodog01

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

F7sus4

leepalmer95 wrote: »

True hybrids died with Cp and soft cap removal.

Theres a few builds left but they're utility builds.

No matter what the ZOS guys said - this guy here above. Listen to him and you won't be mislead. The only part-hybrids are naturally tanks but 99% of the questions is related to DPSing characters.

GrumpyDuckling

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

Is it wrong for people to want to enjoy their hybrid build in content such as VMA without experiencing vastly inferior performance?

eso_lags

still waitin on that response huh? zosd.. you're right though..

OutLaw_Nynx

Can someone please explain to me why people want hybrid builds so bad?

kongkim

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me why people want hybrid builds so bad?

Its fun. and it opens up for a lot more builds and things to try out

squinceybones

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

There are dps checks in certain trials, the group must do x amount of dps to complete the content. They are not there to prevent players from doing the content, rather they ensure that a group should have the necessary dps to complete.

Avalon

The #1 thing I have learned by reading all of the posts in this thread? That a health build is absolutely not viable! Stam builds, Mag builds, both great and pure... Hybrid has a great deal of debate apparently. But everyone keeps saying, "Why put that many points in health? That's wasteful!" So, if play your way is a fact... then, make a pure health build, show that as viable!

JackDaniell

Here is a completed hybrid build wih a roughly equal damage distribution between physical and magical damage. The build works by stacking max magicka and max weapon damage.

This is a PvP build for he most part, but I have completed most of the Morrowind world bosses solo with this build. I think it would have potential in VMSA if I switched skills to a more damage over time spec. Otherwise it's sustain and survivability would be more then fine for VMSA.

Here's a build link wih gameplay if you guys are interested: https://youtu.be/tp-09x2A1-U

I also have a very detailed hybrid build gear guide, showing multiple different hybrid build gear setups for different types of hybrid specs.
https://youtu.be/qF3LaYfNTaU

GeorgeBlack

Remove boost to dps from max magica/stamina
Adjust PvE difficulty in order to make up for the loss of dps from max magica/stamina.

Welcome hybrid builds

dodgehopper_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.

Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.

I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.

Not to mention health in general is being minimized in value not improved. The nerf to Blazing shield is an example of this despite the Warden's use of a couple of health-based skills. The reality is that Tanking in general is not as favorable. Building a DPS with some tanky qualities is a far better way to go in this game, often times even as a tank.

GrumpyDuckling

JackDaniell wrote: »

Here is a completed hybrid build wih a roughly equal damage distribution between physical and magical damage. The build works by stacking max magicka and max weapon damage.

This is a PvP build for he most part, but I have completed most of the Morrowind world bosses solo with this build. I think it would have potential in VMSA if I switched skills to a more damage over time spec. Otherwise it's sustain and survivability would be more then fine for VMSA.

Here's a build link wih gameplay if you guys are interested: https://youtu.be/tp-09x2A1-U

I also have a very detailed hybrid build gear guide, showing multiple different hybrid build gear setups for different types of hybrid specs.
https://youtu.be/qF3LaYfNTaU

One of the key talking points concerning hybrid viability is allowing players to disperse attributes as they so desire, with the only penalty (ideally) being frequency of skill usage due to the size of the attribute pools. Though I'm not discrediting the builds in these videos as hybrids, I do recognize that your hybrid potential is being limited because you are forced to put most of your attribute points into one particular stat.

I would love to see ZOS recognize that a 22/21/21 divide really isn't viable for all content as a non-tank, and make adjustments accordingly.

Jeremy

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.

Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ

So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.

- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.

If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.

I agree with you if you throw Veteran Maelstrom Arena into the mix.

That's one of my biggest issues with this content (aside from it's frustrating and annoying gameplay) is that it excludes a wide variety of builds that are otherwise viable. Players can spend their entire character perfecting a hybrid build that performs well in all manner of solo and group content then walk into VMA and get completely destroyed.

Some players call this challenge. But I call it lame game design. I wish they would re-tool VMA or at least give it a group option so a wider variety of builds could be used to complete it.

Wifeaggro13

squinceybones wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

There are dps checks in certain trials, the group must do x amount of dps to complete the content. They are not there to prevent players from doing the content, rather they ensure that a group should have the necessary dps to complete.

I understood dps checks , but when the whole end game mechanics becomes about that meta. When CC,utility,buffs and tank mechanics are so insignicant that they become secondary effects of dps its a sign game design got very lazy.

Jeremy

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

There are dps checks in certain trials, the group must do x amount of dps to complete the content. They are not there to prevent players from doing the content, rather they ensure that a group should have the necessary dps to complete.

I understood dps checks , but when the whole end game mechanics becomes about that meta. When CC,utility,buffs and tank mechanics are so insignicant that they become secondary effects of dps its a sign game design got very lazy.

Agreed.

I've always considered the "DPS race" mechanic to be a lazy and unimaginative way to make a fight challenging. It also excludes builds that do not focus so heavily on damage - which is bound to alienate a lot of players,. Especially the more creative ones who enjoy doing things differently.

squinceybones

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

No, they are viable for all overland content and normal dungeons and possibly (if done right) for some traisl. hey are also VERY viable for PvP.

vMA is NOT a test of how good your character is. I'm sorry, but ITS NOT.

I have 3 characters that have done the game to almost completion, yet I have NO plans to EVER take a single one of them into vMA.

One of those chars is a little bit of a hybrid - (75% magicka, 25% stamina, Sword & board, 5 light 1 medium, 1 heavy), and can competently complete normal dungeons, public dungeons, all overland questing, and is a great healer in PvP. oh, and its an Orc DK.

vMA is nothing more than a ****-length contest for little boys who feel they need to prove themselves.

Stop using it as any kind of metric. vMA IS NOT A METRIC!!!!!!

The only thing you prove (entirely to yourself)by completing it is that you are a decent player who knows how to equip and run that particular class to complete it. 99% of MA is mechanics, NOT DPS or any other kind of thing.

Its the same with these damned elitist guilds who insist on everyone having completed a DPS test before running Trials, because they want to be able to speed run them, and not have help anyone else.

Some of us want to just quest, explore, craft and have general fun in the overland areas, and for all of that, a Hybrid is more than viable.

There are dps checks in certain trials, the group must do x amount of dps to complete the content. They are not there to prevent players from doing the content, rather they ensure that a group should have the necessary dps to complete.

I understood dps checks , but when the whole end game mechanics becomes about that meta. When CC,utility,buffs and tank mechanics are so insignicant that they become secondary effects of dps its a sign game design got very lazy.

Unfortunately, that's how ZoS designed them, so that's how we have to play to complete it. I don't like it any more than you do.

GrumpyDuckling

Still waiting.

GeorgeBlack

Remove bonus dps from max stamina/magica
Slightly decrease mobs/bosses HP in order to adjust difficulty due to loss of DPS from Max Resources.

That way people can spend some points in their ignored resource and use it for utility skills.

Iccotak

Honestly in my experience, PvE and PvP are two very different things in ESO.
If I want to be able to do both with the same character, then I need to have several different sets of gear and I need to have the champion points filled out for both builds.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling

The challenge is absurd because the premise is false.

No one is pigeonholed into playing any specific build. Anyone can play a hybrid build or anything they want. Play as you want is alive and well.

However, play as you want doesn't mean any build will be optimal for every, or any, situation.

It's a weak argument to suggest otherwise.

If you don't like the argument then take it up with ZOS because it's their argument. The creative director disagrees with the statement that hybrids aren't viable. I simply would like to see proof.

BTW, A hybrid build cleared vMA without any CP. A few have cleared it without CP just to prove it could be done. Of course they knew it well.

spiiros

You can complete Maelstrom with no gear on Vet, what's the point? If anything, explore it in a HM scenario for trials or something. Maelstrom doesn't mean anything if you "complete" it, if anything, ask to go for a 580+ score with a "hybrid", but otherwise... pointless.