3/2/18 ESO Live Stream: ZOS, I Challenge You to Prove Your Stance on Hybrid Builds
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Lavennin✭✭✭
So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.
If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.
I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.
Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.
I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.
I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.
Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.
The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.
So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?
I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.
If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.
Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".
What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?
I assumed OP is just really annoyed by the current state of hybrids and how devs appear to think there's no problem, handing out small buffs & sets but do not address the real issue that makes hybrids not so viable.
So it's not about not liking the buff.
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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Okay, so I have to ask if your issue is that damage scales off attributes, why not make a thread clearly stating that's what the issue is and why you feel hybrids are not helped by it.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.
If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.
I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.
Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.
I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.
I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.
Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.
The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.
So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?
I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.
If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.
Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".
What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?
I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.
Rather than the round about way of asking ZOS to show you that hybrids are viable, which as I've already said outside of competitive (leaderboard) play they are.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.
I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."
That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.
If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).
A fighter with more stamina tends to also have more strength on average.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
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Okay, so I have to ask if your issue is that damage scales off attributes, why not make a thread clearly stating that's what the issue is and why you feel hybrids are not helped by it.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.
If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.
I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.
Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.
I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.
I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.
Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.
The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.
So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?
I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.
If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.
Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".
What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?
I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.
Rather than the round about way of asking ZOS to show you that hybrids are viable, which as I've already said outside of competitive (leaderboard) play they are.
I'm sorry you're struggling to understand the point, but I think it's worded fine enough for people to understand. The purpose of asking ZOS to prove their stance on hybrids is that if they can prove me wrong, then they are right and nothing should change.
But if they cannot prove me wrong - if they cannot complete VMA with a hybrid defined build, then my point is that they need to reevaluate their stance that hybrids are viable, and attempt to strengthen them. And as I stated in the original post, I advocate for ZOS to consider changes to attribute scaling and the divide of weapon and spell damage.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.
I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."
That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.
If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).
A fighter with more stamina tends to also have more strength on average.
So does that also mean a mage with more magic casting endurance has stronger spells?0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I'm not only arguing from a POV of damage. Splitting your resources like that is foolish, because you will run out very quickly if you do so. Especially with the incoming changes to resource management. It's just a nonrelevant scenario because no serious player would ever build like that.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.
I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."
That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.
If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).
But I do get your point about attributes adding to the damage of abilities. I have thought about this as well, since adding softcaps would lead to pure builds becoming extinct again, and simply switching place with hybrids. Also, still you would have the problem of crit being split up between spells and weapons. But I like this way of thinking. Only problem I see is that weapon/spell damage becomes the only stat for increasing damage, and it might become too important? What about builds that focus more on crit/pen? Just thinking out loud here.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Firstly I agree attributes shouldn't govern damage, I have said that for a long time.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Okay, so I have to ask if your issue is that damage scales off attributes, why not make a thread clearly stating that's what the issue is and why you feel hybrids are not helped by it.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.
If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.
I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.
Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.
I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.
I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.
Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.
The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.
So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?
I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.
If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.
Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".
What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?
I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.
Rather than the round about way of asking ZOS to show you that hybrids are viable, which as I've already said outside of competitive (leaderboard) play they are.
I'm sorry you're struggling to understand the point, but I think it's worded fine enough for people to understand. The purpose of asking ZOS to prove their stance on hybrids is that if they can prove me wrong, then they are right and nothing should change.
But if they cannot prove me wrong - if they cannot complete VMA with a hybrid defined build, then my point is that they need to reevaluate their stance that hybrids are viable, and attempt to strengthen them. And as I stated in the original post, I advocate for ZOS to consider changes to attribute scaling and the divide of weapon and spell damage.
However you seem to be deliberately stacking the deck against the current mechanics to make your point. Well I will see what I can do on PTS over the weekend with your build, might have to wait until next week and the character copy though.
Is there a specific class I have to play?
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I'm not only arguing from a POV of damage. Splitting your resources like that is foolish, because you will run out very quickly if you do so. Especially with the incoming changes to resource management. It's just a nonrelevant scenario because no serious player would ever build like that.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.
I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."
That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.
If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).
But I do get your point about attributes adding to the damage of abilities. I have thought about this as well, since adding softcaps would lead to pure builds becoming extinct again, and simply switching place with hybrids. Also, still you would have the problem of crit being split up between spells and weapons. But I like this way of thinking. Only problem I see is that weapon/spell damage becomes the only stat for increasing damage, and it might become too important? What about builds that focus more on crit/pen? Just thinking out loud here.
I like your out-loud thinking. If changes to how damage is calculated were to occur (for example, removing attribute scaling) then you're right about dependence shifting almost entirely to weapon/spell damage and also about questions being raised about crit/pen.
It would require further testing, but it's initially tempting to put more value on armor type choice, as it pertains to in-game categories, with 3/3, 2/3, and 1/3 effectiveness. Think about it in terms of the current defense value that Heavy armor gives compared to Light armor. For example (with arbitrary numbers to provide simple math understanding):
Damage
LA - adds 66 damage per piece worn
MA - adds 99 damage per piece worn
HA - adds 33 damage per piece worn
Healing
LA - adds 99 healing per piece worn
MA - adds 33 healing per piece worn
HA - adds 66 healing per piece worn
Defense
LA - adds 33 defense per piece worn
MA - adds 66 defense per piece worn
HA - adds 99 defense per piece worn
Then you would add in the additional categories (crit, healing received, shielding, etc.) following the same formula while keeping the total number equal for each of the three armor types.
So, as you can see, each armor piece is "equal" in total number, but has specific strengths/weaknesses. It's not too different than the current formula, but it allows more mixing/matching for builds. This is absolutely in the concept stage, and the numbers could fluctuate depending on a specific category, but it's an initial sample that I think is interesting to think about.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Firstly I agree attributes shouldn't govern damage, I have said that for a long time.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Okay, so I have to ask if your issue is that damage scales off attributes, why not make a thread clearly stating that's what the issue is and why you feel hybrids are not helped by it.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
So what's the definition of hybrid? As my understanding it was any build which doesn't focus one attribute, so a mag/stam focus build would be a hybrid no?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
The thing is I don't know many builds were people invest that high in health because it's always covered by food in one form or another.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.
If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.
I'm having a hard time believing that a build like the one in the original post could complete VMA. But hey, if I'm proven wrong then I'll give credit to the individual who made it happen.
Well can we at least modify and optimise it? 20 points in health is a lot of we're not using health skills.
I'm planning a hybrid Warden and would be more than happy to test if it can do VMA for you, but I would like to have an optimised build at least.
I understand your stance. I'm hesitant to agree, only because those 20 to 22 points into health are vital to the argument about why the attribute scaling system hurts hybrids. Instead of resources simply governing the amount of energy/hits a character has to perform skills and live, resources significantly alter the effectiveness of skills.
Even when making a hybrid class if you want to clear the content you're going to have to be somewhat smart about your build, you're stacking a lot of bad build rules against proving that hybrids can work.
The attribute scaling does harm hybrids, but if you're trying to make a Mag/Stam hybrid the idea is (at least in my mind) you're halving your damage from one to have okay damage in two.
What you're asking for though is to have only 1/3 the effective scaling damage bonus just to make a point.
So are you more annoyed with the attribute damage scale system and want that addressed or do you want to see that a hybrid build can clear content?
I want to see someone from ZOS clear VMA with a build that is as close to a definition of a hybrid build as possible (the 22/21/21 attribute placement achieves that) so that the burden of proof about "viability" is as precise as possible. This would be the best approach for demanding scientific accuracy.
If leeway is given, then the definition of hybrid becomes diluted and raises questions about what we are considering a hybrid. For example, by entirely cutting out an attribute (health) we are composing a mixture that is 2/3 potential of what would be a "pure" mix. Since hybrids are a mix, the idea is to make make that mix as much of a mix as possible.
Edit: Okay so after rereading maybe I should phrase that as "who's definition of hybrid".
What is your issue here, why are you so annoyed that ZOS has allowed some hybrid sets and given a slight buff to hybrid builds?
I think my "issue," as you call it, is quite clear in the original post of the thread. Attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide.
Rather than the round about way of asking ZOS to show you that hybrids are viable, which as I've already said outside of competitive (leaderboard) play they are.
I'm sorry you're struggling to understand the point, but I think it's worded fine enough for people to understand. The purpose of asking ZOS to prove their stance on hybrids is that if they can prove me wrong, then they are right and nothing should change.
But if they cannot prove me wrong - if they cannot complete VMA with a hybrid defined build, then my point is that they need to reevaluate their stance that hybrids are viable, and attempt to strengthen them. And as I stated in the original post, I advocate for ZOS to consider changes to attribute scaling and the divide of weapon and spell damage.
However you seem to be deliberately stacking the deck against the current mechanics to make your point. Well I will see what I can do on PTS over the weekend with your build, might have to wait until next week and the character copy though.
Is there a specific class I have to play?
The fact that it looks like I'm stacking the deck against the current mechanics should raise a red flag about the current state of the mechanics. How flawed are the current mechanics if a person who wants to make a 22, 21, 21 build is considered to be "stacking the deck" against themselves?
But really, the whole reason to run the 22, 21, 21 build is to keep the hybrid sample as "pure" as possible - meaning that if the 22, 21, 21 build can do it, then the "purest" hybrid mix is infallibly proving that hybrids are viable. If someone completes VMA with a 32, 32 hybrid build, then that raises the question if a 22, 21, 21 hybrid build can do it. The 22, 21, 21 build saves multiple runs and gives the cleanest sample.
Edit: Whichever class your heart desires. I appreciate your desire to test it out, but be prepared... it'll probably be torture.
Edited by GrumpyDuckling on April 28, 2017 9:03AM0 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do not use Pelinal's
It's a trap. Not worth it, turn back, return the slab, do not pass go, abort, abort, abort!If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].4 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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My issue with the set up though is we know how the games mechanics work, and even if they didn't have damage scaled from attributes you're vastly limiting your required resource pools.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »The fact that it looks like I'm stacking the deck against the current mechanics should raise a red flag about the current state of the mechanics. How flawed are the current mechanics if a person who wants to make a 22, 21, 21 build is considered to be "stacking the deck" against themselves?
But really, the whole reason to run the 22, 21, 21 build is to keep the hybrid sample as "pure" as possible - meaning that if the 22, 21, 21 build can do it, then the "purest" hybrid mix is infallibly proving that hybrids are viable. If someone completes VMA with a 32, 32 hybrid build, then that raises the question if a 22, 21, 21 hybrid build can do it. The 22, 21, 21 build saves multiple runs and gives the cleanest sample.
Edit: Whichever class your heart desires. I appreciate your desire to test it out, but be prepared... it'll probably be torture.
Health is the attribute least requiring investment as you can protect it by other means or heal it up, where's the skills and sources of damage will constant be in use and drain your resources.
So even if ZOS removes attribute scaling from the game it's more beneficial to go 27/10/27 and Mag/Stam food than your build, as to keep doing damage we need to have resources which can't be refilled or protected in the same way health can.
As said I like a challenge and as ZOS are not going to answer you I will see what I can do. Are there other requirements on this, do I have a lives limit or anything? Do note though even on my magicka Nightblade I normally burn 50-300 soul gems in VMA as I am not very good at the game.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For an low level character stamina character an hybrid build makes some sense.
First they have few passives to boost each side and many skills don't have an stamina morph yet, the small resource pool and low regen makes it smart to draw from the magic pool too.
As you level up you get more passives and your stamina pool get larger and you get more abilities and at level 25 going pure makes sense.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
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My issue with the set up though is we know how the games mechanics work, and even if they didn't have damage scaled from attributes you're vastly limiting your required resource pools.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »The fact that it looks like I'm stacking the deck against the current mechanics should raise a red flag about the current state of the mechanics. How flawed are the current mechanics if a person who wants to make a 22, 21, 21 build is considered to be "stacking the deck" against themselves?
But really, the whole reason to run the 22, 21, 21 build is to keep the hybrid sample as "pure" as possible - meaning that if the 22, 21, 21 build can do it, then the "purest" hybrid mix is infallibly proving that hybrids are viable. If someone completes VMA with a 32, 32 hybrid build, then that raises the question if a 22, 21, 21 hybrid build can do it. The 22, 21, 21 build saves multiple runs and gives the cleanest sample.
Edit: Whichever class your heart desires. I appreciate your desire to test it out, but be prepared... it'll probably be torture.
Health is the attribute least requiring investment as you can protect it by other means or heal it up, where's the skills and sources of damage will constant be in use and drain your resources.
So even if ZOS removes attribute scaling from the game it's more beneficial to go 27/10/27 and Mag/Stam food than your build, as to keep doing damage we need to have resources which can't be refilled or protected in the same way health can.
As said I like a challenge and as ZOS are not going to answer you I will see what I can do. Are there other requirements on this, do I have a lives limit or anything? Do note though even on my magicka Nightblade I normally burn 50-300 soul gems in VMA as I am not very good at the game.
You see that part of your post where you are saying that "health is the attribute least requiring investment...?" That's part of the argument against the current form of attribute scaling. The current system puts more value on magicka and stamina because most skills scale on magicka and stamina. I advocate for removing the scaling.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I also made a case for how with damage scaling removed this would still be the case.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
My issue with the set up though is we know how the games mechanics work, and even if they didn't have damage scaled from attributes you're vastly limiting your required resource pools.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »The fact that it looks like I'm stacking the deck against the current mechanics should raise a red flag about the current state of the mechanics. How flawed are the current mechanics if a person who wants to make a 22, 21, 21 build is considered to be "stacking the deck" against themselves?
But really, the whole reason to run the 22, 21, 21 build is to keep the hybrid sample as "pure" as possible - meaning that if the 22, 21, 21 build can do it, then the "purest" hybrid mix is infallibly proving that hybrids are viable. If someone completes VMA with a 32, 32 hybrid build, then that raises the question if a 22, 21, 21 hybrid build can do it. The 22, 21, 21 build saves multiple runs and gives the cleanest sample.
Edit: Whichever class your heart desires. I appreciate your desire to test it out, but be prepared... it'll probably be torture.
Health is the attribute least requiring investment as you can protect it by other means or heal it up, where's the skills and sources of damage will constant be in use and drain your resources.
So even if ZOS removes attribute scaling from the game it's more beneficial to go 27/10/27 and Mag/Stam food than your build, as to keep doing damage we need to have resources which can't be refilled or protected in the same way health can.
As said I like a challenge and as ZOS are not going to answer you I will see what I can do. Are there other requirements on this, do I have a lives limit or anything? Do note though even on my magicka Nightblade I normally burn 50-300 soul gems in VMA as I am not very good at the game.
You see that part of your post where you are saying that "health is the attribute least requiring investment...?" That's part of the argument against the current form of attribute scaling. The current system puts more value on magicka and stamina because most skills scale on magicka and stamina. I advocate for removing the scaling.
Health can be as low as 17k because monsters don't hit that hard and you can just throw up a shield or a heal to protect or regain it.
Where's the skill cost attributes are much more important to keep using your skills and are far harder to regain (more so in Morrowind).
This means even if you remove damage scaling from attributes people are not going to see health as a worthy investment.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
jlmurra2✭✭✭✭✭When I began playing this game, which was in late January of this year. I decided to play the game how I innately wanted, to develop in my own way. Very much how I played Skyrim which is what I was playing previously, and I found this worked very well.
So my first build was a Night blade Breton hybrid character, and I spit my attribute points among health, stamina , and magicka equally. My feeling was that I wanted my character to be balanced, and not be too weak in any attribute.
At first this seemed to work well, but as I progressed all combat both PVE, and PVP became increasingly difficult, even though I was leaning new skills, and how to better play the game, my damage output was ever declining, to the point were some fights seemed impossible.
So I began researching online information pages, forum post, and builds. Of course I than learned about the attributes scaling system being bound to the physical, and spell damage output. I then made my way to the appropriate shines, and reassigned my skills, and attributes. I then had a much easier time playing my character.
Since then I have made a few other characters, non-hybrid, and all of them have worked better than my initial attempt.
I very much want to make more viable hybrid characters. I see on the stats that there is a separate value shown for the damage output, this is what was so deceptive with my first attempt, because I though it was separate from my pools that I assigned points to at level up time.
I feel the issue could be largely resolved if at level up time, the attribute we receive currently only leveled up the stamina, health, or magicka pool, and then we also received a separate point that we could choose to increase our physical, or magicka damage output.
Simply that the pool of character resource, and the power output should be independent of each other. I understand the reasoning for setting the system up as this, but it does place unnecessary restrictions on the player.
Edited by jlmurra2 on April 28, 2017 11:56AM4 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭When I began playing this game, which was in late January of this year. I decided to play the game how I innately wanted, to develop in my own way. Very much how I played Skyrim which is what I was playing previously, and I found this worked very well.
So my first build was a Night blade Breton hybrid character, and I spit my attribute points among health, stamina , and magicka equally. My feeling was that I wanted my character to be balanced, and not be too weak in any attribute.
At first this seemed to work well, but as I progressed all combat both PVE, and PVP became increasingly difficult, even though I was leaning new skills, and how to better play the game, my damage output was ever declining, to the point were some fights seemed impossible.
So I began researching online information pages, forum post, and builds. Of course I than learned about the attributes scaling system being bound to the physical, and spell damage output. I then made my way to the appropriate shines, and reassigned my skills, and attributes. I then had a much easier time playing my character.
Since then I have made a few other characters, non-hybrid, and all of them have worked better than my initial attempt.
I very much want to make more viable hybrid characters. I see on the stats that there is a separate value shown for the damage output, this is what was so deceptive with my first attempt, because I though it was separate from my pools that I assigned points to at level up time.
I feel the issue could be largely resolved if at level up time, the attribute we receive currently only leveled up the stamina, health, or magicka pool, and then we also received a separate point that we could choose to increase our physical, or magicka damage output.
Simply that the pool of character resource, and the power output should be independent of each other. I understand the reasoning for setting the system up as this, but it does place unnecessary restrictions on the player.
Well written. If "play the way you want" is a line that ZOS wants to support, then they should see how attribute splitting restricts player effectiveness in a way that is more than resource management.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Will once more post:
Wood elf sorceress hybrid.
27k both stat pools.
61% crit
18k health.
3k weapon damage, 2.5k spell damage.
17-18k hardened ward.
If you like, I can tape my clear when morrowind drops?1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭KochDerDamonen wrote: »Do not use Pelinal's
It's a trap. Not worth it, turn back, return the slab, do not pass go, abort, abort, abort!
@GrumpyDuckling
While i do not want to support trolling, and would be really interested in the outcome of your proposed challenge, I still would suggest you limit the pelinal-has-to-be worn requirement.
With damage outcome scaling from max ressource, this set would just be useless in your proposed build. IMHO0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »KochDerDamonen wrote: »Do not use Pelinal's
It's a trap. Not worth it, turn back, return the slab, do not pass go, abort, abort, abort!
@GrumpyDuckling
While i do not want to support trolling, and would be really interested in the outcome of your proposed challenge, I still would suggest you limit the pelinal-has-to-be worn requirement.
With damage outcome scaling from max ressource, this set would just be useless in your proposed build. IMHO
Pelinal's is not trash, but you are correct that there are way better options. Like one magicka set and one stamina set, balancing out the bonuses.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »KochDerDamonen wrote: »Do not use Pelinal's
It's a trap. Not worth it, turn back, return the slab, do not pass go, abort, abort, abort!
@GrumpyDuckling
While i do not want to support trolling, and would be really interested in the outcome of your proposed challenge, I still would suggest you limit the pelinal-has-to-be worn requirement.
With damage outcome scaling from max ressource, this set would just be useless in your proposed build. IMHO
Pelinal's Aptitude technically isn't a requirement, just a suggestion because it's very much geared towards hybrid builds. My original post does say that a "similar build" would suffice.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Will once more post:
Wood elf sorceress hybrid.
27k both stat pools.
61% crit
18k health.
3k weapon damage, 2.5k spell damage.
17-18k hardened ward.
If you like, I can tape my clear when morrowind drops?
That would be great. I would very much enjoy watching that.0 -
Lavennin✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. Crappy builds should never be viable, hybrid or not. The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits. Else the stats get too spread out. No, I think the best possible hybrid build would be a more fitting test subject.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Doesn't mean every hybrid should do a 3 split. That would be pretty dumb. Mag and stam split would be a hybrid as well, which is what I think most people aim for. Health can be fixed with food.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I agree that there are different ways to construct a hybrid. However, if ZOS were to prove viability of hybrid builds, then creating the most hybrid-like build stands to offer the best proof of viability.
I'll repeat your own phrase to try to better explain my point. You said, "The only good hybrids would be stam/mag splits."
That is getting at the heart of my argument, which is that the attribute scaling system is a key contributor in what hurts hybrid builds. Instead of attributes simply governing resource management, they affect strength of skills, which significantly empowers magicka and stamina to the point that they are more valuable than health.
If a player wishes to do a 22/21/21 setup, the only penalty they should incur is lack of resource for casting abilities, not lack of power (which is why current hybrids suffer).
A fighter with more stamina tends to also have more strength on average.
Then we shouldn't have health. A fighter with more stamina and strength tend to have more health.
Unless you think health = fat?
(Oh and actually, people with better endurance may not be strong and vice versa. Think about all the long distance runners.)
1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »KochDerDamonen wrote: »Do not use Pelinal's
It's a trap. Not worth it, turn back, return the slab, do not pass go, abort, abort, abort!
@GrumpyDuckling
While i do not want to support trolling, and would be really interested in the outcome of your proposed challenge, I still would suggest you limit the pelinal-has-to-be worn requirement.
With damage outcome scaling from max ressource, this set would just be useless in your proposed build. IMHO
Pelinal's is not trash, but you are correct that there are way better options. Like one magicka set and one stamina set, balancing out the bonuses.
Yeah, or one set adding weapon dmg (i.e. morag tong) and one adding spell dmg (i.e. noble duelist, martial knowledge) ... just to name some easy-to-get-ones ... . Well or take spell and weapon penetration into account... there are some options. If viable or not... i can't say.
Point is: ressouces scrapped to 22/22/21 is EXACTLY the best definition of a hybrid, no need for further gimping.
1 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I challenge ZOS too that they are never gonna beat RNGEdited by Lord_Eomer on April 28, 2017 3:00PM1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shoot, can we offer a gold reward? If so I know I'll be able to clear vMael with a hybrid sorc and I do mean a true hybrid sorc come Morrowind."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Shoot, can we offer a gold reward? If so I know I'll be able to clear vMael with a hybrid sorc and I do mean a true hybrid sorc come Morrowind.
Sorcs and DKs have it good in the hybrid department.0 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »In September 2016 the Creative Director of ESO was asked to respond to a comment that included this phrase: "...players are pigeonholed into specific builds because hybrids aren't viable..." The Creative Director of ESO responded to that phrase by saying "I don't believe that." A two minute-plus response ensued to defend the statement, with mentions of both PVP and PVE game play.
Here is the video evidence (from 32:32 to 35:05):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Que9KdffpcQ
So, if hybrid builds are to be considered "viable," then by definition hybrid builds can be used to complete all game content, including Trials, Dungeons, Quests, and Veteran Maelstrom Arena.
Here is the challenge that I have for anyone from ZOS, and especially for the Creative Director of ESO: Create a "true" hybrid build and complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena.
- Split your attribute points as evenly as possible into Health, Magicka, and Stamina (22/21/21).
- Use an end-game craftable 5 piece hybrid set like Pelinal's Aptitude.
- Use a stat-mixing 5 piece set like Armor of the Trainee.
- Fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots as you see fit.
- Complete Veteran Maelstrom Arena with this hybrid build once the Morrowind Patch is active.
If Veteran Maelstrom Arena is completed with the aforementioned build, or one similar, then hybrid builds will have been proved "viable." Until then, I will continue to support changes to attribute scaling and weapon/spell damage divide, because those are two obstacles that I believe are preventing hybrid builds from being viable. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to either being proven wrong, or helping to convince you of the need to work toward a solution that would make hybrid builds more competitive in all game content.
I have done it. 5 hulking drugar and 5 necro on mamblade (yes mag and stam) split attributes 32 each into magika and stam and used tri stat food. DW vma daggers and vma inferno. All arcane jewlery and 2 spell damage enchants and 6 armor stamina enchants and 1 magika enchant with 1 weapon damage enchant.
It's not too bad to be honest but I know vma like the back of my hand. You run a stam dps dw bar and a usual staff front bar. CP 80 into mighty and crit damage and 80 into spell power and 20 in spell crit.
Finished with around 440k.PC Master Race
1001CP
8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
Master Angler
Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
Tamriel Hero
Grand Overlord
Every Skyshard
Down With BOP!1 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Race is breton but ideally you'd want dunmer for slightly better stat balance.PC Master Race
1001CP
8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
Master Angler
Dro-M'artha Destroyer (at last)
Tamriel Hero
Grand Overlord
Every Skyshard
Down With BOP!0
