Can't get used to sustain changes. No sustain = no fun

code65536 · June 2017

Adaptation isn't the issue. The issue is the sense of regression.

The hallmark of any RPG is the character becoming more powerful. Older content is supposed to feel easier as the time goes on, because even in the absence of power creep, players become better and more experienced the more they play.

It is true that ESO had added a fair amount of power creep, and this patch rolled it back somewhat, but the fact remains that people feel a sense of regression in this patch.

For example, I've ran vMA a number of times after the patch. I made a minor change to my build, still got a Flawless run, and was only a few minutes slower than pre-patch. I'm still doing much better now in vMA than I was in 2016. Nevertheless, I'm now about where I was when Homestead first came out. So the nerfs this patch essentially negated the progress that I had made over the last 4 months. And that's annoying. I'm fine with it, but I can see and understand how others would be bothered by this more than I am.

I also landed three characters on the vMoL weekly this past week. Yes, it's harder than what it was pre-Morrowind, but compared to what vMoL was like during the original Thieves Guild patch last year, it is still very easy. But while some of that is power creep, the bulk of it is the result of getting better after a year's worth of vMoL experience. So, yes, vMoL is definitely doable and, depending on what point of reference you use, still easy. But there's no denying that it's gotten harder. Whereas pre-patch, we could practically PUG vMoL and easily carry through less-experienced players, we have to be more selective now. I've seen no issues with experienced/organized groups, but the casual impromptu vMoL runs are much rougher ordeals this patch, and that's really unfortunate.

And that brings up the secondary issue: compared to some of my peers, I'm a relatively casual player. I never compete for scores, I still loot every chest in vMA, etc. And I liked how carefree things were last patch. People will argue that having to think strategically about sustain makes the game more interesting and is another differentiator between the good and bad players. And that's a fair point. But I personally don't want to have to think about sustain. It's more relaxing and more fun if I could, for example, pay attention to a radio show while casually doing vMA instead of having to shut out outside distractions so that I could pay proper attention to something that I didn't have to stress over before.

Mitoice · June 2017

You are not alone OP.... I was able to adapt to the sustain changes very well... but im not having fun anymore for some reason, heavy attacking saps all the fun...

Maybe if they made heavy attack fun i would have no problem...

tinythinker · June 2017

Xylphan wrote: »

Yes, there were problems. Infinistain had characters like mag sorcs soloing group content without even trying. There was almost no point of even having stamina and magika bars because you'd never run out of resources.

For some people. Those on lower tiers were also affected. And there are those who've adapted who just don't find the new pace fun. It is understandable that many players will find that the game isn't as fun or rewarding as before.

Magıc · June 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Oh and those saying that changes were "nonesense" or "crap" I'm guessing you didn't realize that resource management was always a part of all TES games and that ESO is a TES game therefore should have a big focus on resource management. What fun is it to mash buttons for your skills all the time and repeat the same rotation for a whole boss fight? Now you actually have to think

Phahahahaha!

People say forums once had LOL button. Need one here desperately, @IzakiBrotherSs.

Playing TES from Morrowind, original Morrowind, mind you. TES never was about resource management It was about overleveling and finding a cheese, which made you immortal killing machine. You remember Alchemy in Morrowind? Remember 120%+ Chameleon in Oblivion? Paralyze in both? Skyrim? Oh boy, I don't even know where to start about Skyrim

Resource management, what a joke. Noone ever bothered, except for those who strictly chose to by self-imposed arbitrary restrictions. There was never any need to bother, because countless strategies existed to faceroll the game

I won't say how much I dislike the "balance changes", I already said that countless times. Game recieved -100 to fun and nothing can be done here. All I can say about "just adapt" (LOL), I said there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4220956/#Comment_4220956. Won't repeat myself.

But please, do cut this "resource management was always a part of all TES games". It's honestly LOL-worthy and LOL-worthy only.

Yeah and ESO is also about cheesing. Nonetheless my point still stands that resource management has always been the only limiting mechanic in TES. Sure you could light attack your way through everything and have no issues whatsoever, but the resource restriction has always been there. Also I highly doubt that bugging your way through a game is what the devs intended. So my point still stands and a LOL button won't change that

Since when was ESO a single player action roleplaying game? ESO is an MMO. Granted it is TES, but it's still an MMO.

How does that fit into the equation? Still the same franchise, and as a matter of fact, its the only one that actually needs stricter restrictions that single player games, because of whole balance thing. So resource management was a part of TES games, ESO decided to use resource management as the only restricting mechanic in the game and in One Tamriel/Homestead infinite resources were insanely easy to achieve, so in Morrowind they made it harder (doesn't mean its still not possible).

Dantaria wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Yeah and ESO is also about cheesing. Nonetheless my point still stands that resource management has always been the only limiting mechanic in TES. Sure you could light attack your way through everything and have no issues whatsoever, but the resource restriction has always been there. Also I highly doubt that bugging your way through a game is what the devs intended. So my point still stands and a LOL button won't change that

No, "bugging" was famous stealing through "bucket-on-the-head"

Alchemy wasn't a bug and neither was Chameleon. It was benefits from maxing craft, something that is plain dead in ESO. And resources management as limiting mechanic existed only for as long as you didn't bothet with craft.

There is no way you can play Morrowind without negating resource management, because, as it was stated, hp and mag regen were solid 0. They didn't exist. You were out of everything after 1 mob. You level craft or you get out. You continue level the craft - you don't care. Even without pushing Alchemy after 100. Same stays for Oblivion.

So please, really, don't sell apple as oranges

You said that: "It was about overleveling and finding a cheese, which made you immortal killing machine" was the whole point of TES games. I think you can stop now. That effectively murders the whole point of resource management.

And that last paragraph of yours just confirms everything I said: resource management was a part of the game and you had to do something to be able to actually manage your resources.

Why you still arguing when all your arguments are basically just confirming what I'm saying?

Forgot to tag the guy you quoted. I was arguing against his points of comparing ESO to other TES games.

Dantaria · June 2017

Okaaaaaay, I see. I need to elaborate? Fine.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

You said that: "It was about overleveling and finding a cheese, which made you immortal killing machine" was the whole point of TES games. I think you can stop now. That effectively murders the whole point of resource management.

Well, exactly.

You do realize, that in TES you are always a Chosen One? Nerevarine, Champion of Kvatch, Dovahkin? And what many, many people always liked about TES is that it not only says "You're a Chosen One", it actually allows you to become one. Unlike, for example, Dragon Age, where you can't max-out to the point of "I killed Vivec in 2 secs, LOL".

And the part of actually being the Chosen One was the fact that all obstacles could be negated. Which brings us here:

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

And that last paragraph of yours just confirms everything I said: resource management was a part of the game and you had to do something to be able to actually manage your resources.

Resource management was easily negated. Again. You could make it non-existant.

You originally said:

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Oh and those saying that changes were "nonesense" or "crap" I'm guessing you didn't realize that resource management was always a part of all TES games and that ESO is a TES game therefore should have a big focus on resource management. What fun is it to mash buttons for your skills all the time and repeat the same rotation for a whole boss fight? Now you actually have to think

And I continue to object. Because it was a part which could be made void.

People who "whined" about infinite sustain pre-Morrowind, clearly didn't play single TES games. In ESO you never had infinite sustain, you had good sustain through hard group-work.

TES single games? Spend an hour on lvling Alchemy and have truly infinite sustain.

Your logic: "The part of franchise that previously could be overcome and made void completely should totally be the part of ESO exactly as they executed it - without any way out". Do you truly not see the flaw?

The game was made into kinda Dark Souls. "Kinda", because they missed the dynamics of Dark Souls. The Dark Souls are build on different principles. Resource management of Dark Souls only makes ESO boring.

You like Dark Souls resource management? Fine. But do not say that it always was the TES model. Because it wasn't.

In DS you watch your bars no matter what cheesy build you made. In TES you absolutely could find a way to forget about the very existence of these bars and still be very powerful. In TES there was never a "either" trade-off.

What we have now has nothing to do with franchise.

P. S. Do notice, I do not say that "almighty Choisen One" model is good. Or bad. Or average or something else. It's the matter of preferences and opinions. I'm arguing the simple fact - "was it in TES previously or wasn't". The answer is no - it wasn't. Good or bad is beside the point and is for everyone to decide for themselves.

EDIT - typos

Izaki · June 2017

Magıc wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Oh and those saying that changes were "nonesense" or "crap" I'm guessing you didn't realize that resource management was always a part of all TES games and that ESO is a TES game therefore should have a big focus on resource management. What fun is it to mash buttons for your skills all the time and repeat the same rotation for a whole boss fight? Now you actually have to think

Phahahahaha!

People say forums once had LOL button. Need one here desperately, @IzakiBrotherSs.

Playing TES from Morrowind, original Morrowind, mind you. TES never was about resource management It was about overleveling and finding a cheese, which made you immortal killing machine. You remember Alchemy in Morrowind? Remember 120%+ Chameleon in Oblivion? Paralyze in both? Skyrim? Oh boy, I don't even know where to start about Skyrim

Resource management, what a joke. Noone ever bothered, except for those who strictly chose to by self-imposed arbitrary restrictions. There was never any need to bother, because countless strategies existed to faceroll the game

I won't say how much I dislike the "balance changes", I already said that countless times. Game recieved -100 to fun and nothing can be done here. All I can say about "just adapt" (LOL), I said there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4220956/#Comment_4220956. Won't repeat myself.

But please, do cut this "resource management was always a part of all TES games". It's honestly LOL-worthy and LOL-worthy only.

Yeah and ESO is also about cheesing. Nonetheless my point still stands that resource management has always been the only limiting mechanic in TES. Sure you could light attack your way through everything and have no issues whatsoever, but the resource restriction has always been there. Also I highly doubt that bugging your way through a game is what the devs intended. So my point still stands and a LOL button won't change that

Since when was ESO a single player action roleplaying game? ESO is an MMO. Granted it is TES, but it's still an MMO.

How does that fit into the equation? Still the same franchise, and as a matter of fact, its the only one that actually needs stricter restrictions that single player games, because of whole balance thing. So resource management was a part of TES games, ESO decided to use resource management as the only restricting mechanic in the game and in One Tamriel/Homestead infinite resources were insanely easy to achieve, so in Morrowind they made it harder (doesn't mean its still not possible).

Dantaria wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Yeah and ESO is also about cheesing. Nonetheless my point still stands that resource management has always been the only limiting mechanic in TES. Sure you could light attack your way through everything and have no issues whatsoever, but the resource restriction has always been there. Also I highly doubt that bugging your way through a game is what the devs intended. So my point still stands and a LOL button won't change that

No, "bugging" was famous stealing through "bucket-on-the-head"

Alchemy wasn't a bug and neither was Chameleon. It was benefits from maxing craft, something that is plain dead in ESO. And resources management as limiting mechanic existed only for as long as you didn't bothet with craft.

There is no way you can play Morrowind without negating resource management, because, as it was stated, hp and mag regen were solid 0. They didn't exist. You were out of everything after 1 mob. You level craft or you get out. You continue level the craft - you don't care. Even without pushing Alchemy after 100. Same stays for Oblivion.

So please, really, don't sell apple as oranges

You said that: "It was about overleveling and finding a cheese, which made you immortal killing machine" was the whole point of TES games. I think you can stop now. That effectively murders the whole point of resource management.

And that last paragraph of yours just confirms everything I said: resource management was a part of the game and you had to do something to be able to actually manage your resources.

Why you still arguing when all your arguments are basically just confirming what I'm saying?

Forgot to tag the guy you quoted. I was arguing against his points of comparing ESO to other TES games.

Oh right sorry

Yeah its a bit silly to compare the games that closely

@Dantaria I'll just put this out here: you're not the chosen one in ESO, you're not a Dragonborn or Nerevarine, you're just a dude without a soul who is kinda like Batman cause he helps people (literally helps everyone).
And I'm going to stop arguing with you, because this is going nowhere.

Tommy_The_Gun · June 2017

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Jokes aside. The only thing we can do now is to adapt.
This whole idea of not having infinity recesses is good in general but it is done in a terrible way. I can understand that ZOS want players to think and learn to manage their recesses. But the real problem is that top "pro" players who know game mechanics at a level that probably even game developers don't - already found a way... some gear swapped, some other enchantment used differently, some CP spent slight different.. and there you go... no problem...

The problem start when you are an "average joe" type of player... Doing quests, some doungens / delves from time to time and you have only a very basic knowledge of how game mechanics work... Those players will probably "feel" those changes the most.... A complete reversal of what ZOS intended to do...

Joy_Division · June 2017

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

Qbiken · June 2017

Magıc wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

This is so over the top and descriptive you can tell it's a troll post.

You have been reduced to light attack spamming I mean come on really? Grow up stop whining. If you have played since launch then you were doing dungeons when it vet ranks and you would have had the same sustain issues then. You got by then it's not different now, still easier with champ points.

These posts that always start with I've been playing since launch but this last change is to much always make me laugh. You've adapted to every other change that has been made, and there have been plenty, yet this one single one, in this case sustain, has made the game totally unplayable.

This isn´t a post about "adapting". It´s about OP not thinking the game is as fun as Before Morrowind with the Changes to sustain, and I agree with OP, it´s less fun.

You agree with OP because like 95% of people on this game, CP carried you.

CP carried me??? Get real m8. CP never "carried" me. Sure it´s made things easer but never carried me. Finished vMA with 287CP first time I completed it, and I can complete it without CP on almost any character atm......
I can do the same stuff now as before Morrowind since I´ve been such a "good boi" and adapted to the changes. Just because I agree with OP doesn´t mean that I fall into your group of players that get carried.....

Feel free to come with more empty baits/assumptions while you´re at it, or are you to busy getting carried by a destroballgroup in Cyrodil??

Faulgor · June 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

And I continue to object. Because it was a part which could be made void.

Everything could be made void. That was the whole point, that whatever you could do in the game you could master to godlike degrees. Saying it's not part of the game because it could be made irrelevant is ridiculous, as that would remove nearly everything from TES.
Simple traversal/exploration is a huge part of the game, and it's not irrelevant just because you can buff your athletics to godhood or equip the boots of blinding speed. Likewise, 100% Chameleon spells don't make thievery irrelevant to the game, nor is your health irrelevant just because you can create enchanted rings that regenerate 5 health per second.
Overcoming these obstacles and limitations is precisely the point of RPGs and TES in particular. The existence of the means to eventually render these obstacles trivial does not prove they can be removed without consequence; It proves that if you remove them, you don't have a game. No obstacle, no conflict, no change, no progress, no resolution, no victory.

And of course this totally negelects that you can't put the god-like endgame of single player TES games into a multiplayer environment.

Moglijuana · June 2017

My sustain feels better this patch tbh. AND I hit harder lol. GG.

Sneaky-Snurr · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I feel you OP but the only way now is to, well, adapt.

"Learn to Adapt", has become the new "Learn to Play" and "Git Gud".

@ArchMikem
Do note that I meant it with no prejudice and offense whatsoever.
I share OP's feelings and I do wish that most of the sustain nerf is reverted but in reality, it's not going to happen anytime soon so the next best step for everyone is to adapt to the new combat environment, there's no other way.

I'm one of the people who are against most of those nonsensical changes to sustain but we can either complain about it till the ends of the earth or we simply change our playstyle to suit the new environment (while still pleading to ZoS to revert the changes).

We can, however, leave. Which is more productive suggesting then suggesting we submit to the whims of the mad maestro that is Wrobel and continue to eat the crap sandwitch and ask for seconds.

Impact their bottom line. At the very least? Seek joy and dont be content to be a thrall to the company.

@Doctordarkspawn @ArchMikem
Actually, I still enjoy the game for what it's worth (minus Morrowind 'Chapter').

However, it takes more than a few leavers to affect ZoS's bottom line and I do not want this game to die off because ZoS aren't making enough to sustain (pun intended) the game for a few extended years. If that's the case, then there would be no ESO and that's disheartening.

I'd rather have a new Dev team work on ESO who are familiar with the ES series and are MUCH MUCH more efficient and sensibly-forward-thinking than the current team.

At this point, I do not believe ESO is worth saving.

It's entire run has been plagued by performance issues, insane design decisions from the balance staff and far too much meddling about with both. Wrobel isn't going anywhere, and he is the main issue with the balance. ZOS isn't going to spring for better servers, and that's why the packet loss is so high.

The game is not going to fix itself and ZOS has proven it does not want your feedback. Sorry, but I dont believe this is worth saving anymore. The experiment has gone on long enough. I hope black deserts release on console does well enough to put a serious hurt into ZOS's bottom line, enough for them to re-evaluate how much ill will they can skirt by with.

The sustain changes are a symptom of bad management. The performance issues are a symptom of bad management. Until ZOS fires it's current team and rehires, there. Will. Be. No. Fixing. These. Issues. My problem is no longer with the game, but the people who are butchering it.

@Doctordarkspawn
Lmao. Bolded part is actually my beef and I think you missed my point as I actually share your thoughts on your concerns.

And like I've previously said, a new Dev team is what's needed to make the game better. Desperately.

@Sneaky-Snurr

I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with your contentedness to sit there and choke down the same swill. I personally think telling newcomers what their coming into, and advising people to cut the cord is a better option.

Besides. After reading some of the replies on this thread alone, I half thing throttling this toxic community is a good thing in and of itself.

@Doctordarkspawn
Content? In which post(s) did I show any kind of contentment towards ZoS on the drastic changes to the game?

Let me make this clear to you, I am neither content nor do I 'choke down the same swill' because I've been voicing out my concerns on the changes ZoS have made whilst at the same time adapting to the current combat environment.

Like I said, you can either; quit (still waiting for you to do so if you actually mean to quit the game); complain and get facerolled or; complain and adapt (while also pressuring ZoS to revert the changes and advocate for a change in the Dev team).
Either way, the 3rd option is definitely the best way to go for anyone including yourself.

Re-evaluate your decisions and think for ESO's long term prosperity instead of yelling "Let's quit together! That'll show them while ESO cease to exist due to insufficient fund!".

Absolut_Turkey · June 2017

You know what I like about the combat post-Morrowind? You actually have to think, and you actually have to use some finesse. I know, these things aren't easy if you're spoiled and used to easy-mode, but for the rest of us, it's a jolly good time.

shreek1 · June 2017

Also, the healing cone theme is really not working with pug groups, they don't care where the healer is and just die.

DPS and Tanks shouldn't have to worry about where the healer is. My Healer is my main toon. It's my job to position my self to for proper healing of my group. It's their job to Tank or burn down bosses.

Sneaky-Snurr · June 2017

Absolut_Turkey wrote: »

You know what I like about the combat post-Morrowind? You actually have to think, and you actually have to use some finesse.

@Absolut_Turkey
Unless if you're running proc damage sets + poisons in which you just have to spam light attacks to proc them.
No finesse or thinking required there.

Kneighbors · June 2017

Can't get why so many people suggest to OP to adapt. He's telling you there's no promblem to adapt, but it's simply not fun anymore. Do you understand the difference between "Can't Make Something" and "NOT FUN TO DO SOMETHING"

Let me repeat again, he wrote it's NO FUN. And he's totally right. I was still building up my characters trying to make best of them and now they took 5 steps backwards. I'm not playing my stam NB anymore, not playing templar tank, only because it's NO FUN. And overall the gamr became much more boring, this is damn right.

NyassaV · June 2017

Legit just switch food. Use the Dubious Camoran throne for stam and witchmothers for mag and you'll be fine

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I feel you OP but the only way now is to, well, adapt.

"Learn to Adapt", has become the new "Learn to Play" and "Git Gud".

@ArchMikem
Do note that I meant it with no prejudice and offense whatsoever.
I share OP's feelings and I do wish that most of the sustain nerf is reverted but in reality, it's not going to happen anytime soon so the next best step for everyone is to adapt to the new combat environment, there's no other way.

I'm one of the people who are against most of those nonsensical changes to sustain but we can either complain about it till the ends of the earth or we simply change our playstyle to suit the new environment (while still pleading to ZoS to revert the changes).

We can, however, leave. Which is more productive suggesting then suggesting we submit to the whims of the mad maestro that is Wrobel and continue to eat the crap sandwitch and ask for seconds.

Impact their bottom line. At the very least? Seek joy and dont be content to be a thrall to the company.

@Doctordarkspawn @ArchMikem
Actually, I still enjoy the game for what it's worth (minus Morrowind 'Chapter').

However, it takes more than a few leavers to affect ZoS's bottom line and I do not want this game to die off because ZoS aren't making enough to sustain (pun intended) the game for a few extended years. If that's the case, then there would be no ESO and that's disheartening.

I'd rather have a new Dev team work on ESO who are familiar with the ES series and are MUCH MUCH more efficient and sensibly-forward-thinking than the current team.

At this point, I do not believe ESO is worth saving.

It's entire run has been plagued by performance issues, insane design decisions from the balance staff and far too much meddling about with both. Wrobel isn't going anywhere, and he is the main issue with the balance. ZOS isn't going to spring for better servers, and that's why the packet loss is so high.

The game is not going to fix itself and ZOS has proven it does not want your feedback. Sorry, but I dont believe this is worth saving anymore. The experiment has gone on long enough. I hope black deserts release on console does well enough to put a serious hurt into ZOS's bottom line, enough for them to re-evaluate how much ill will they can skirt by with.

The sustain changes are a symptom of bad management. The performance issues are a symptom of bad management. Until ZOS fires it's current team and rehires, there. Will. Be. No. Fixing. These. Issues. My problem is no longer with the game, but the people who are butchering it.

@Doctordarkspawn
Lmao. Bolded part is actually my beef and I think you missed my point as I actually share your thoughts on your concerns.

And like I've previously said, a new Dev team is what's needed to make the game better. Desperately.

@Sneaky-Snurr

I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with your contentedness to sit there and choke down the same swill. I personally think telling newcomers what their coming into, and advising people to cut the cord is a better option.

Besides. After reading some of the replies on this thread alone, I half thing throttling this toxic community is a good thing in and of itself.

@Doctordarkspawn
Content? In which post(s) did I show any kind of contentment towards ZoS on the drastic changes to the game?

Let me make this clear to you, I am neither content nor do I 'choke down the same swill' because I've been voicing out my concerns on the changes ZoS have made whilst at the same time adapting to the current combat environment.

Like I said, you can either; quit (still waiting for you to do so if you actually mean to quit the game); complain and get facerolled or; complain and adapt (while also pressuring ZoS to revert the changes and advocate for a change in the Dev team).
Either way, the 3rd option is definitely the best way to go for anyone including yourself.

Re-evaluate your decisions and think for ESO's long term prosperity instead of yelling "Let's quit together! That'll show them while ESO cease to exist due to insufficient fund!".

Let me make this equally clear to you.

This wont be fixed if the design team at ZOS continues to be the same.

They will not be removed unless it can be proved that they are what the players are unhappy with. To get people to look, they need to have a impact in the bottom line. The more people quit, the closer they look. That simple.

I have quit. I refuse to buy Morrowind, any of the expansions, and do not play the game for any reason other than the two RP guilds I am currently a part of. And I'll continue to advise the same to any and all new players I meet.

Apathy is death. And you have become apathetic. I have no doubt you'll take my 'quitting' as the signal to shame me and try to get me to shut up because 'if your not playing your opinion does not matter', a mentality that is and allways will be born of a fanboy mentality, but at the end of the day I'm content in fighting back the way I am. The only way, that makes sense. When Wrobel, Rich, and the rest of them have gone, and the decisions made by the new team are -good- decisions, the playerbase will come back in droves. Until then, if it's not good, it deserves. To fail.

Your enjoyment of a product is not enough to justify it's existance. If you truely love something, you should be willing to let it go rather than prolong it's suffering.

Dantaria · June 2017

Faulgor wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

And I continue to object. Because it was a part which could be made void.

Everything could be made void. That was the whole point, that whatever you could do in the game you could master to godlike degrees. Saying it's not part of the game because it could be made irrelevant is ridiculous, as that would remove nearly everything from TES.
Simple traversal/exploration is a huge part of the game, and it's not irrelevant just because you can buff your athletics to godhood or equip the boots of blinding speed. Likewise, 100% Chameleon spells don't make thievery irrelevant to the game, nor is your health irrelevant just because you can create enchanted rings that regenerate 5 health per second.
Overcoming these obstacles and limitations is precisely the point of RPGs and TES in particular. The existence of the means to eventually render these obstacles trivial does not prove they can be removed without consequence; It proves that if you remove them, you don't have a game. No obstacle, no conflict, no change, no progress, no resolution, no victory.

And of course this totally negelects that you can't put the god-like endgame of single player TES games into a multiplayer environment.

You're looking at it from different point of view

Let's change the angle.

Yes, indeed, everything could be made void, which was entirely the point. You wanted to be dependent on sneak and watch your resources? You could. You wanted to be a god, defeater od everything and achiever of everything? You could. Which also was progression. You progress through overcoming X in process - a valid thing. You progress by using your wits and finding a way to remove X - also a valid thing

If you ask personally me - this "godly" thing is TES with crafting (and lol, Morrowind artefacts

) was overkill. But in ESO we're now having the exactly opposite extreme. Which also... yes. Leads to "no progress". Lol-worthy alchemy and enchantment in single-player TES games. Guys, why?!

Dark Souls extreme system in game build on different basis, mechanics and philosophy? Guys, why?!

Sure you can't compare single-TES and ESO. I didn't start it

Merely pointed out that "resource management in franchise" is honestly a choice, not a given.

And I would like to point out the most important thing in all this. ESO playerbase mostly come from TES background. It's Elder Scrolls Online, not Dark Souls Online.

Freedom in ESO was always limited. "All s**t allowed just like in single-player-TES" stopped the moment you wanted to do vet group content. Which was (and is) undestandable. It's MMO, rules will be different. Only so many ways to be efficient.

But now there are even less freedom. Even less efficient strategies.

How in the world the evolution of the game with ES letters in the name means more limitations? How in the world "difficulty" in ES-game is made by forcing players watch the bars?

If people like playing Dark Souls, they are welcome to. But people don't come to ESO, because they like Dark Souls. They come to ESO, because they like TES. And I do not have enough English words that I know to even start explaining how much these games differ from each other and how much your mindset changes if you hop from one to another (I know, I've been there

).

You needed to change your mentality to enjoy ESO after single-player-TES. Now I feel like you need to completely inverse your mentality to enjoy ESO after single-player-TES. The former was fine. The latter is borderline ridiculous.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

And I continue to object. Because it was a part which could be made void.

Everything could be made void. That was the whole point, that whatever you could do in the game you could master to godlike degrees. Saying it's not part of the game because it could be made irrelevant is ridiculous, as that would remove nearly everything from TES.
Simple traversal/exploration is a huge part of the game, and it's not irrelevant just because you can buff your athletics to godhood or equip the boots of blinding speed. Likewise, 100% Chameleon spells don't make thievery irrelevant to the game, nor is your health irrelevant just because you can create enchanted rings that regenerate 5 health per second.
Overcoming these obstacles and limitations is precisely the point of RPGs and TES in particular. The existence of the means to eventually render these obstacles trivial does not prove they can be removed without consequence; It proves that if you remove them, you don't have a game. No obstacle, no conflict, no change, no progress, no resolution, no victory.

And of course this totally negelects that you can't put the god-like endgame of single player TES games into a multiplayer environment.

You're looking at it from different point of view Let's change the angle.

Yes, indeed, everything could be made void, which was entirely the point. You wanted to be dependent on sneak and watch your resources? You could. You wanted to be a god, defeater od everything and achiever of everything? You could. Which also was progression. You progress through overcoming X in process - a valid thing. You progress by using your wits and finding a way to remove X - also a valid thing

If you ask personally me - this "godly" thing is TES with crafting (and lol, Morrowind artefacts ) was overkill. But in ESO we're now having the exactly opposite extreme. Which also... yes. Leads to "no progress". Lol-worthy alchemy and enchantment in single-player TES games. Guys, why?! Dark Souls extreme system in game build on different basis, mechanics and philosophy? Guys, why?!

Sure you can't compare single-TES and ESO. I didn't start it Merely pointed out that "resource management in franchise" is honestly a choice, not a given.

And I would like to point out the most important thing in all this. ESO playerbase mostly come from TES background. It's Elder Scrolls Online, not Dark Souls Online.

Freedom in ESO was always limited. "All s**t allowed just like in single-player-TES" stopped the moment you wanted to do vet group content. Which was (and is) undestandable. It's MMO, rules will be different. Only so many ways to be efficient.

But now there are even less freedom. Even less efficient strategies.

How in the world the evolution of the game with ES letters in the name means more limitations? How in the world "difficulty" in ES-game is made by forcing players watch the bars?

If people like playing Dark Souls, they are welcome to. But people don't come to ESO, because they like Dark Souls. They come to ESO, because they like TES. And I do not have enough English words that I know to even start explaining how much these games differ from each other and how much your mindset changes if you hop from one to another (I know, I've been there ).

You needed to change your mentality to enjoy ESO after single-player-TES. Now I feel like you need to completely inverse your mentality to enjoy ESO after single-player-TES. The former was fine. The latter is borderline ridiculous.

THIS.

I'M TIRED OF THIS GAME BEING MONOPOLIZED BY TRYHARDS. You have a series, go get your own. I've been saying it, and saying it, and saying, it, for ages now. You are the problem. And you've been dragging this game down for far too friggin long.

K4RMA · June 2017

l2p

Bouldercleave · June 2017

frateanu.luiseb17_ESO wrote: »

This is the first MMO where the devs nerf players instead of creating more challenging content. And I play MMOs since Ultima Online.

You cannot be serious. Nerfs and balancing happen in EVERY MMO. Some are good and some are bad. I'm not a fan of these, but they can be overcome if you just think a bit and restructure your combat strategy.

Kram8ion · June 2017

I've gone from 1350 regen to 2650 + regen and there's literally no difference after morrowind for me
Idk I was expecting at least some improvements to regen for the 500+weapon dmg sacrificed

Izaki · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people to until these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

STEVIL · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people tountil these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

Wouldn't dream of it. most gaming forums are packed with folks who dont play the game spouting negative after negative. For some reason, its a thing to try and turn folks off a game you dont play with some people.

I do not get it myself. I have left games before, stopped playing when it became no longer fun, but when i left i left... did not hang around throwing flame at those who still enjoyed it.

but that is just me. This other thing some people do, its their thing.

I just prefer doing stuff i like rather than trying to convince others to not like what they like.

But thats me.

wildbear247 · June 2017

I feel your pain OP. Post-Morrowind I've changed up my kit somewhat and have adapted to the change so my playstyle is very similar to pre-Morrowind, but there is a reoccurring weakness here related to how ZOS interacts with their players that irks me. For example, I consider how ZOS approached the Morrowind update, in which they probably had a basic plan similar to the following (not listed in order of importance).
1) New PvE content
2) Battlegrounds
3) Warden
4) QoL changes (UI updates like the buff tracker, bug fixes, etc.)
5) Key player concerns (!!!)

Now let's focus on #5 for a minute. What I don't understand is how ZOS looked at #5 and thought that meant we wanted massive sustain changes, widespread class changes, etc...because it seems the precious resources used to implement those changes could've been put to better use addressing other elements that players really want (e.g. transmogrification system, creating a more stable Battlegrounds, addressing RNG concerns, a slew of AddOn functionality that console players don't have, etc.)

Overall, I just wish that for every major patch ZOS would make #5 more of an effort to engage ALL of the player base (not just streamers or us forum warriors), identify their key concerns, and then set a transparent plan in motion to address those concerns.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think the Morrowind update made the game more interesting or skillful to play. Just more tedious.

This.

I tire. Of geting screwed. Because people wont rework the difficulty system, or something similar. Enough. Rescend the worst of the sustain changes and get on to redoing the difficulty system, if you want to appease these 'HARDCORE OR BUST' people.

Just quit the game then dude, stop torturing yourself. I just don't get it: why do people tell everyone to quit because the game is apparently trash, but they don't do it themselves? You seem to not be enjoying this game. Considered quitting?

I allready have.

I'm just here to continue to convince people tountil these problems are solved, or the game goes under. Just because I left does not mean the problems are fixed, and I want to see them fixed. It isn't about me, it's about wanting a game to come back to.

And just because I quit does not mean my opinion has no merit, either, so dont even bother bringing out that old line.

Wouldn't dream of it. most gaming forums are packed with folks who dont play the game spouting negative after negative. For some reason, its a thing to try and turn folks off a game you dont play with some people.

I do not get it myself. I have left games before, stopped playing when it became no longer fun, but when i left i left... did not hang around throwing flame at those who still enjoyed it.

but that is just me. This other thing some people do, its their thing.

I just prefer doing stuff i like rather than trying to convince others to not like what they like.

But thats me.

Well, for one, (And this is the last post I'ma make off topic)

Like this community wont allready flame you if you say something is bad or needs tweaking? You've experienced this as much as anyone else. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Barring that, the only way these problems gets fixed is if more people leave and hurt the bottom line. As it is ZOS does not want your feedback, them asking for it is meerly a tradition.

People want the game to get better, their gonna have to step up and do what I'm doing. Merely talking never worked. And it's never going to.

Draxius82 · June 2017

I am of the opinion that having a character that is so powerful that all content becomes trivial, while entertaining at first, fades rather quickly and has me looking elsewhere for entertainment. That is not a good formula for an MMO. Combat in an MMO needs to stay meaningful in order to retain players.

Or, would you rather they revert the sustain changes and add 2min-30min cooldown timers on skills? Personally, I've never found rigid rotations fun. I prefer combat to be dynamic.

Edit: I am also unaware of any game where developers go with what the players want and its been beneficial. Players like us seem to forget this is a business and implementing player demands on major systems of the game is not something I would listen to. Quality of life changes? Absolutely. The success or failure of ESO should be on ZOS and only on ZOS.