3/2/18 ESO Live Stream: ZOS, I Challenge You to Prove Your Stance on Hybrid Builds

Hope499 · April 2017

I do a hybrid magicka tank that has pretty even stats, but he wont be doing VMA anytime soon I would think...I mean maybe I will try it, but the DPS is just not there.

rotaugen454 · April 2017

Someone completed VMsA with the joke broom and pot.

idk · April 2017

@GrumpyDuckling

The challenge is absurd because the premise is false.

No one is pigeonholed into playing any specific build. Anyone can play a hybrid build or anything they want. Play as you want is alive and well.

However, play as you want doesn't mean any build will be optimal for every, or any, situation.

It's a weak argument to suggest otherwise.

GrumpyDuckling · April 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling

The challenge is absurd because the premise is false.

No one is pigeonholed into playing any specific build. Anyone can play a hybrid build or anything they want. Play as you want is alive and well.

However, play as you want doesn't mean any build will be optimal for every, or any, situation.

It's a weak argument to suggest otherwise.

If you don't like the argument then take it up with ZOS because it's their argument. The creative director disagrees with the statement that hybrids aren't viable. I simply would like to see proof.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2017

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

timidobserver · May 2017

The question wasn't specific enough. Hybrid builds are fine for 90% of the enemies in the game.

KochDerDamonen · May 2017

@GrumpyDuckling Why 22/21/21 (or rearrangement of the location of the 22)? Is that many points in hp really necessary, what if one wishes to use a stamina set and would put more points into magicka for attributes, why does it required the use of a crafted set?

I don't understand these paramaters.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2017

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling Why 22/21/21 (or rearrangement of the location of the 22)? Is that many points in hp really necessary, what if one wishes to use a stamina set and would put more points into magicka for attributes, why does it required the use of a crafted set?

I don't understand these paramaters.

Just making that parameters as hybrid-like as possible so that there would be zero question about hybrid viability.

S1ipperyJim · May 2017

It's possible to complete end game raids with any build if the rest of the group carries you.
It's also possible to complete VMA with a hybrid build just not easy, fast or practical.
VDSA would likely be tough as a hybrid, but if you were a tank it would be possible.

So you could argue that hybrid builds are "viable" (capable of working successfully; feasible) or at least "possible" to use successfully in end game.

But hybrid builds are obviously not "optimal" or "as effective" as builds which stack a single resource pool.

KochDerDamonen · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling Why 22/21/21 (or rearrangement of the location of the 22)? Is that many points in hp really necessary, what if one wishes to use a stamina set and would put more points into magicka for attributes, why does it required the use of a crafted set?

I don't understand these paramaters.

Just making that parameters as hybrid-like as possible so that there would be zero question about hybrid viability.

@GrumpyDuckling I mean, regardless of hybrids working or not I think we all know that health blows as a stat to put attributes into. Its secondary effects are nonexistant and very few things scale off of it.

So why the crafted set then? I'm of the strong opinion that Pelinal's is exclusively for one cheesy PvP build and nothing else

rootimus · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

LOL @ challenging Richard Lambert to do it. If he responds at all, it's far more likely it'll be to say something along the lines of "you know you don't have to hybrid here, right?" than for him to actually complete your challenge.

As for the stats in your challenge, I really don't see a problem with it just being a magicka / stamina split. That's still a reasonable description of a hybrid.

GrumpyDuckling · May 2017

rootimus wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

LOL @ challenging Richard Lambert to do it. If he responds at all, it's far more likely it'll be to say something along the lines of "you know you don't have to hybrid here, right?" than for him to actually complete your challenge.

As for the stats in your challenge, I really don't see a problem with it just being a magicka / stamina split. That's still a reasonable description of a hybrid.

Two main reasons why I suggest the 22/21/21 divide:

1 - Putting points into health weakens the effectiveness of skills, which highlights problems with the current attribute scaling system. It's not just resource management that suffers when one puts points into health, it's also damage, healing, and shielding.

2 - Statistically speaking, it's as close to an even divide as possible.

brtomkin · May 2017

My definition of a hybrid build is not simply dividing stats evenly. To me a hybrid build would be able to effectively use both magicka and stamina scaling abilities - it doesn't matter how you set up your stats, only how effective and successful your setup is. Examples would be a Sorc that effectively uses Bloodthirst alongside Crystal Frags and Hardened Ward or a DK that effectively uses Molten Whip alongside Crit Rush and Executioner.

Bladerunner1 · May 2017

I don't think it makes sense to constrain all three stats evenly and wear trainee armor for a challenge like that, at least go in with a faux-functional hybrid setup, perhaps pelinal's medium armor with a weapon damage buffing second set. The build will do poorly, but at least not as terrible as wearing trainee.

My definition of a true hybrid would be a build that uses both resources to accomplish the same thing, like a healer pulling from stamina and magicka to heal, a DPS using stamina and magicka to deal damage or a tank that uses both resources to do tank stuff.

So far the only really good hybrids are tanks. I've been stretching the usefulness of my hybrid nightblade tank and pushing the limits of simultaneous healing/dpsing/tanking for many months. The best I could do was 15,000 heals per second for my group while dishing out 10,000 single target DPS. This setup has always been more than enough to get through vet dungeons, if my tank we're cloned and there were 4 of them running the same dungeon, it would be a moderately-paced cakewalk.

Dragonnord · May 2017

They don't play their own game. That's why they don't have a clue about what thery're are doing and break the game with every patch they release.

BNOC · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

There has to be more to your request than simply this.

ANYONE can go in MSA, sacrifice ~5k magicka and probably still make top 20 on the leaderboards.
I could go in there on my templar with ~3k more health and stamina and faceroll it with caltrops on.

If you've done MSA without MG and IL on your bar, you've basically done it your way, just without the extra health and stamina.
People do 0CP completes in there, I've done 180CP FQ runs in 7l training gear, no MS or guilds (35k Magicka) I now run it with 44k Magicka so your suggestion(as is above), whilst noticeably different would not be difficult.

They're viable, just not optimal.

This is a lot easier for stamina builds to achieve as they don't need their magicka pool the same way magicka require stamina.

Nolic1 · May 2017

Ok I hate to jump in on the hybrid scene sense I do play one in most content including vet dungeons and trials. But your idea of 22/21/21 split will never work and here is why even with running a Dark-elf which does make the most optimal hybrid your off setting the character to much the sets you would need to use and glyph's you would need to get an exact max number can not match with the game design.

With a 22/21/21 set up in the end would look like this to some degree.

Stam - 24k
health - 22k
mag - 26k

Weapon dmg = 2500
Spell dmg = 2200

This would be with food and buffs now it would be viable even to do VMA but no you would not be on the leader boards but you could complete it.

A more balanced approach would be something like this in stats.

Stam - 27k
Health - 24k
Mag - 27k

Weapon dmg = 3000
Spell dmg = 3000

And an even split on weapon and spell dmg and I have done this but it was only done running dual wield on both bars.

Now the above numbers are just to give the idea but it truth its hard to get a perfect set up unless you run equal sets like netchs touch and automation together and put all tri stat glyph's with your stats split up to equal out the losses in certain areas. Some classes like nightblade and warden can pull this off way easier then others with there 8% bonus to magicka and can do really well with the dark-elf race. Even with what I say above you can push a build like the second one with no problems.

This is why your theory of the 22/21/21 could never work is because of the race bonuses and class bonuses would off set the build to much and make it none viable. The game does allow for hybrid builds but not your design of hybrid.

Edit:Tried to add a picture from test but it would not take it so I am sorry I can not show proof.

Galwylin · May 2017

Putting points into health just doesn't mean hybrid to me. It adds nothing (before the warden) to any ability. I would think in order to show how futile hybrid builds can be is to at least go as much as possible into one stat without passing the other. That way you make the best hybrid possible to show how lacking it is. The setup of including health gimps it enough to show that perhaps hybrids are possible if you remove health so just do that up front. As others have pointed out, health is the easiest to regain of all the resources. You don't need to heavy attack something in order to gain it back.

I currently play a magicka nightblade (among others) and I'd be pleased if I had the damage stamina gives my weapons but the healing I get currently from swallow soul and sap essence. But with this scaling system in place, if I go into one, I make the other useless. My damage suffers and my ability to heal damage suffers. That makes it a no win situation. Being viable isn't enough. We need to be able to get into trials with that setup or at least no lose a spot with it. If that is viable, then hybrids can flourish. So there has to be proof to the player base that setup can and does work. That isn't the case currently.

And I have a question. Is it possible to have a nightblade in medium armor for weapon damage and damage skills while also enough in magicka to make healing attainable from magicka in just regular content in crafted gear? Including vMA. Trials I understand will probably always be out of reach in such a setup. Its too bad they didn't carry over damage is level based in this patch the way resources are now with all the heals based on level and damage based on level. They stopped short at attribute scaling for some reason. Perhaps if they had done like the CP changes so the first half of points into attributes would give 75% of its scaling ability. That would have open the door for hybrids, I believe.

ProfesseurFreder · May 2017

*yawn*

idk · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Morrowind is live. Perhaps someone from ZOS would like to complete VMA with a 22/21/21 attribute divide and prove that a hybrid build is "viable."

Hybrids do clear vMA. They cleared them before Morrowind. They'll clear them after Morrowind. They did leaderboard vMA runs before Morrowind and they'll continue with that practice. I don't see why devs need to test it.

The attribute setup is probably a little off for a decent hybrid builds. Way to much health.

Minno · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

Also, certain builds function better in pve versus PvP. Most hybrids are in PvP where chaining burst abilities together is more important than sustained dps. Since they mostly use a high stack of DMG, they can use stamina skills with mag abilities to create a combo for themselves while also healing from both stat pools.

Hybrids Excel in PvP whereas they aren't as optimal in pve.

idk · May 2017

Minno wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

Also, certain builds function better in pve versus PvP. Most hybrids are in PvP where chaining burst abilities together is more important than sustained dps. Since they mostly use a high stack of DMG, they can use stamina skills with mag abilities to create a combo for themselves while also healing from both stat pools.

Hybrids Excel in PvP whereas they aren't as optimal in pve.

Which is also why hybrids can do well in vMA.

DMuehlhausen · May 2017

Hybrid Builds are viable...you could probably get through everything using Hybrid builds.

The problem is everybody just goes and follows the min/maxers and believer their word is absolute law and everyone must follow it down to the letter.

idk · May 2017

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Hybrid Builds are viable...you could probably get through everything using Hybrid builds.

The problem is everybody just goes and follows the min/maxers and believer their word is absolute law and everyone must follow it down to the letter.

@DMuehlhausen

That's not a problem. Some want to do higher dps and there is nothing wrong with that.

The min/max builds are not the "absolute law" for playing the game but for doing damage on a competitive raid groups one will run a build along the lines of one of the meta builds. Hybrids can't touch that.

Heck, even some raid groups that don't try to be competitive hage dps requirements.

Many good builds in the game. None of them are good for everything.

Minno · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TBH they can complete content fine, they're just not as efficient or leaderboad competitive so no one uses them.

If your goal is just to clear content then you'd be surprised how many unoptimised builds actually work, they just take a long time.

Also, certain builds function better in pve versus PvP. Most hybrids are in PvP where chaining burst abilities together is more important than sustained dps. Since they mostly use a high stack of DMG, they can use stamina skills with mag abilities to create a combo for themselves while also healing from both stat pools.

Hybrids Excel in PvP whereas they aren't as optimal in pve.

Which is also why hybrids can do well in vMA.

I can see that!

winterbornb14_ESO · May 2017

You would figure the Dev's would have already tested this before Nerfing the games fun.

I still don't see any videos.

STEVIL · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Lavennin wrote: »

I'd love to see hybrids made (or proven) viable, but the three attributes splitting seems too harsh a requirement. I'm thinking stamina + magicka.

The three attribute split is as hybrid as it gets.

indeed it is but unless you believe a 32-sta and 32-mag attribute spend does not qualify as a hybrid build, then you are fouling your own test.

literally all a "failure" would prove is that ONE hybrid build was not viable the 21-21-22.

So you have devised a test which cannot refute the claim that you are looking to challenge. After all they did not claim **all** hybrid builds are viable.

Now, why you chose to do that, we can only guess.

Now, for me, i do not consider the VMA a necessity for viable. NMA would be fine for me but, again, the more strictly you define even "viable" the less conclusive your point becomes. But to me, "viable" would be covered by "normal" mode.

Just as a benchmark for my own benefit:

"Viable" to me would be all normal mode content (plus solo public dungeons)
"Competitive" would be veteran mode content and soloing dungeons.
"Strong" would be hard mode content, higher leader board scores, that kind of stuff.

but thats me.

Xylphan · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Don't say the hybrid needs to be able to complete vMA. You can complete vMA with little to no damage output at all if you at least know the mechanics. (and have good internet connection)

Challenge them to get onto the leader-boards with a hybrid build.

There is a definite minimal amount of DPS you need, though. If you can't out damage their regen then you'll be locked into a never ending battle. For S&G I took my pure tank into vMA. The first boss couldn't kill me, but I couldn't kill him either. It was a holy battle of wet noodles.

Didaco · May 2017

I used to complete vMA on my hybrid sorc when my mag one wasn't fully spec'd.
Of course, it wasn't a split damage because it makes no sense, but I used to cast a 15k HW while Wrecking Blowing everything XD.
Was it viable? Yes.
Optimal? Hell no.

With some tweaks you can still make it work with Pelinal set and those wasted points on health (I still didn't get why they are a requirement for the challenge though).

GrumpyDuckling · June 2017

Morrowind is live for all platforms. The challenge remains.