Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

There are some like Donatoo, Hromis but most of them run in a zerg so the individual skill of a sorc is hard to measure.
The problem with DD is that even if you interrupt the sorc that he loses nothing. The problem is you have to be good to bash someone but there is not much of a benefit if you bash them while the sorc loses nothing but some time. And we haven't considered dodge cancel yet.
You still need an enemy for heavy attacks but none for DD which also gives you a huge heal. There is a problem there

I meet both of em often in open world cyro. Ask both of those, if they think they can out dark deal me in a duel. I'm pretty sure, they will say "nope".

You dont DD for the heal, why would you ever do that when you can just pop a vigor with surge giving a stable 2k pvp hps foundation, heck, most even have rally, too. You sound like someone who doesn't understand the dynamics of when and where to use DD. Point is, the heal is a "nice to have", not something you use the skill for (since it has the potential to be counterplayed). People use DD for the ressource return.

So, again, why would I bring myself in danger using DD, when I can use a heavy attack which also deals dmg, cannot beinterrupted, has the potential to proc enchants and armor bonuses, ALSO has a high probability to RETURN HP due to crit surge and most importantly doessnt leave the opponent unpressured? All that while keeping me infight to proc constitution bonuses, whereas going LOS for DD would prolly make me miss a tick.

My point still stands. Not to convince you or other guys on the forums. But because that's exactly what I and many other sorcs will be asking themselves: Why not just heavy attack?

Regards

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

And there's the core issue that I'm getting at. Cast time abilities need to charge their costs when successfully interrupted. The caster needs to be punished.

Dark Exchange is but one ability in need of this change. I made it the focus of this thread because it triggers people and fires up discussions, and because this global fix would appease most people's frustrations with Dark Exchange entirely. The ability tooltip is fine imo. The underlying mechanic -- that interrupting channels charges resources while the interrupted player incurs no cost -- is the issue.

That's something I can agree with, even if it will further smallen the incentive to use d/d after the update. Did ZOS ever made a statement why getting interrupted doesn't consume resources?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

There are some like Donatoo, Hromis but most of them run in a zerg so the individual skill of a sorc is hard to measure.
The problem with DD is that even if you interrupt the sorc that he loses nothing. The problem is you have to be good to bash someone but there is not much of a benefit if you bash them while the sorc loses nothing but some time. And we haven't considered dodge cancel yet.
You still need an enemy for heavy attacks but none for DD which also gives you a huge heal. There is a problem there

I meet both of em often in open world cyro. Ask both of those, if they think they can out dark deal me in a duel. I'm pretty sure, they will say "nope".

You dont DD for the heal, why would you ever do that when you can just pop a vigor with surge giving a stable 2k pvp hps foundation, heck, most even have rally, too. You sound like someone who doesn't understand the dynamics of when and where to use DD. Point is, the heal is a "nice to have", not something you use the skill for (since it has the potential to be counterplayed). People use DD for the ressource return.

So, again, why would I bring myself in danger using DD, when I can use a heavy attack which also deals dmg, cannot beinterrupted, has the potential to proc enchants and armor bonuses, ALSO has a high probability to RETURN HP due to crit surge and most importantly doessnt leave the opponent unpressured? All that while keeping me infight to proc constitution bonuses, whereas going LOS for DD would prolly make me miss a tick.

My point still stands. Not to convince you or other guys on the forums. But because that's exactly what I and many other sorcs will be asking themselves: Why not just heavy attack?

Regards

Because you can DD when you aren't in a position to heavy attack opponents.

You stam players think "oh, just bash," but magicka players don't always have that luxury; especially next patch when blocking becomes even more prohibitively expensive and I don;t even want to talk about BGs or no CPs when we are losing 4K stam and 15% from dodge and break free costs. It's absolutely ridiculously that I can use the intended counter and be tactically worse off.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

And there's the core issue that I'm getting at. Cast time abilities need to charge their costs when successfully interrupted. The caster needs to be punished.

Dark Exchange is but one ability in need of this change. I made it the focus of this thread because it triggers people and fires up discussions, and because this global fix would appease most people's frustrations with Dark Exchange entirely. The ability tooltip is fine imo. The underlying mechanic -- that interrupting channels charges resources while the interrupted player incurs no cost -- is the issue.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

And there's the core issue that I'm getting at. Cast time abilities need to charge their costs when successfully interrupted. The caster needs to be punished.

Dark Exchange is but one ability in need of this change. I made it the focus of this thread because it triggers people and fires up discussions, and because this global fix would appease most people's frustrations with Dark Exchange entirely. The ability tooltip is fine imo. The underlying mechanic -- that interrupting channels charges resources while the interrupted player incurs no cost -- is the issue.

That attempt would have been fine with the current live 1s no animation delay dark deal.
The pts version is interruptable for 1.2s and locks out other skills for an additional 0.2s. It got rediculously easy to interrupt on pts.

If you´d change it to cost resources upfront it would straightup murder the skill.

So revert the sloppy PTS change. Doesn't change the principle.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

There are some like Donatoo, Hromis but most of them run in a zerg so the individual skill of a sorc is hard to measure.
The problem with DD is that even if you interrupt the sorc that he loses nothing. The problem is you have to be good to bash someone but there is not much of a benefit if you bash them while the sorc loses nothing but some time. And we haven't considered dodge cancel yet.
You still need an enemy for heavy attacks but none for DD which also gives you a huge heal. There is a problem there

I meet both of em often in open world cyro. Ask both of those, if they think they can out dark deal me in a duel. I'm pretty sure, they will say "nope".

You dont DD for the heal, why would you ever do that when you can just pop a vigor with surge giving a stable 2k pvp hps foundation, heck, most even have rally, too. You sound like someone who doesn't understand the dynamics of when and where to use DD. Point is, the heal is a "nice to have", not something you use the skill for (since it has the potential to be counterplayed). People use DD for the ressource return.

So, again, why would I bring myself in danger using DD, when I can use a heavy attack which also deals dmg, cannot beinterrupted, has the potential to proc enchants and armor bonuses, ALSO has a high probability to RETURN HP due to crit surge and most importantly doessnt leave the opponent unpressured? All that while keeping me infight to proc constitution bonuses, whereas going LOS for DD would prolly make me miss a tick.

My point still stands. Not to convince you or other guys on the forums. But because that's exactly what I and many other sorcs will be asking themselves: Why not just heavy attack?

Regards

Because you can DD when you aren't in a position to heavy attack opponents.

You stam players think "oh, just bash," but magicka players don't always have that luxury; especially next patch when blocking becomes even more prohibitively expensive and I don;t even want to talk about BGs or no CPs when we are losing 4K stam and 15% from dodge and break free costs. It's absolutely ridiculously that I can use the intended counter and be tactically worse off.

Yes, I did consider that, since I talk to other competent players on a regular basis. You were one of the guys adamantly defending templar skills and told people who had the very same complaint you have now to slot specific counter skills (purge), even if they were stamina players.

How about taking your own advice and not make 180° turnaround when talking about skills who dont belong to your class?

Neighbor wrote: »

It's still really bad balancing because any competent Sorc is not going to cast right in front of you. But if they are going to go down this path then they need to at least make so interrupting actually does something.