Eclipse : not fun for the target and still not versatile for templars

Joy_Division

@NightbladeMechanics has expressed legitimate concerns about this skill in that it is super-effective against specific builds and without the CC break, potentially forcing solo range-oriented players to slot the Purge skill, which seems to me meant for group play.

I personally still think this skill is too niche. This spell has never been popular and, saying this as someone who has used this spell tens of thousands of times, I believe the reasoning for its lack of popularity was not because opponents could simply CC break it. It just wasn't very effective means of defense. So I don't foresee this spell all of a sudden becoming a mainstay for Templars (although I do think the non-reflect version with the higher damage is worth testing as that is a more efficient skill Vs. every opponent).

What I think is telling is that even though our assessments of the skill's power and potential are in contradiction, we both agree gameplay and balance would be better if the spell was changed.

I do not like gameplay mechanics where players are forced to slot specific skills just to deal with specific opponents. I always hated the rationale it's OK for NBs and stealth to be super strong because I could slot Radiant Mage-light to negate it, so it would be hypocritical of me to say it's OK for me as a Templar to shut down a ranged projectile build by Eclipse and just tell them to slot Purge. It's OK for mundane means of counterplay such as CC break to be not as effective or incur some penalty/side-effect, but the new Eclipse does not function like this since it cannot be removed by anything but a cleanse. I have written about Eclipse numerous times and I always maintained that if a player could not break free it would be a problem.

Point: If I as a templar and my potential adversary both believe Eclipse to be detrimental to PvP and Battlegrounds(albeit for different reasons), then perhaps that is a compelling reason to re-evaluate the skill. Eclipse has undergone numerous revisions (I believe this is the 5th!)l it's clearly not an easy skill to figure out a nice balance. Let's try to nail something down.

How useful is Eclipse as a defensive skill?

Of the 8 mag/stam + class combinations, it is only efficient Vs. Magicka nightblades. Stam builds primary threat is melee. Snipers aren't in the open to Eclipse in the first place. mDKs just hold block and talon spam me. Temps purge this and sweeps/RD aren't projectiles. Sorcs curse, Mage's fury, Crushing shock, and lightning heavy not reflectable. It is merely annoying Vs. 7 and super-effective against 1. I don't feel that is good game design. As a templar I would rather have a more versatile defensive ability. You come across heavy armor templars in cyrodiil all the time, yes? Why do you think we use Defensive Posture instead of Eclipse? As a Magicka Nightblade, I would feel unfairly singled out.

Does Eclipse have any other uses? .

Yes, it does damage. But it has a terrible cost to damage ratio. The Unstable Core morph is better in this respect, but it does not reflect. So it's an undodgable skill that sets up a delayed burst ala Curse. Why don't templars use this if every sorcerer uses Curse? Most of us are smart players who know our class; the skill is a lot more expensive than curse and does less damage (aside from being blockable). We can get the delayed burst from Backlash which is much cheaper, heals us, and potentially hits for more damage.

With the upcoming cost reduction and lower explosion timer, I do think templar players are going to toy around with the Unstable Core explosion oriented morph. Why use the reflect morph when it does less damage when it has minimal defensive benefits against the vast majority of my opponents?

Does Eclipse have any drawbacks?

Yes. Whereas before we templars joked that it gave "free CC immunity," that's what it actually does now. Before, if an opponent CC-broke the effect, while it was true they weren't CC (hence the joke), they still consumed stamina, thus not making it free. Now, no more CC-breaking, but opponents are granted CC immunity after the effect is over. And CC immune targets are not effected by the reflect debuff (This by the way is another reason why I believe if this ability all of sudden becomes popular, it will be the Unstable Core version that templars use). This is not being stressed enough. If resource management is going to be a thing in Morrowind and BGs are going to have no CPs, there is absolutely no way I will be handing out free CC immunity to my opponents because this is a niche spell that quite frankly is woefully ineffective against the 7/8ths of them.

If you think I am biased, I will 100% guarantee you that if you ever see a blackish-yellow globe around you and I'm your opponent, fire away your funnel health, javelins, and crystal frags. I am using the Unstable Core morph because if you are getting CC immunity from me, I am damn sure going to at least hit you with something that will effect your Health bar.

Do I think its compelling game-play?

At its core, no. My target has to run a specific ability to counter this; they won't like that and it limit theirs options. My target is given free CC immunity. I don't like that and it limits my options. An argument could be made that this makes for more dynamic group/AvA gampelay since the synergy from Templar's Purifying ritual becomes much more valuable (and thus giving Templars, who some are feeling kind of blue about the update, a valuable purpose) and encourages teamwork. Maybe. But why can;t we do just that, encourage non templars to seek out their allies rather than obligating them to?

Do I have any suggestions

Yes.

• Because it is a single-target spell, Eclipse needs to a more potent form of defense than just a generic reflect, especially since a number of dangerous attacks that used to be considered projectiles no longer are. I personally would recommend the old functionality, i.e. everything, but for the fainthearted that want to gloss the fact we've already been there and Eclipse was deemed lackluster, then I would say whatever that falls under the "direct damage" CP star Zos has got (minus ultimates!). it's not OP because 1) it used to be better and 2) ...
• ... Targets need to always have the ability to break the debuff. CC break is the way to go here. However ...
• ... because we want to encourage dynamic game-play and teamwork, we need to make it such that players do not want to just simply CC-break it ...
• ... so, I would suggest CC-breaking the effect incurs the Unstable Core morph explosion. That way the casting Templar does not feel cheated that her opponent simply removed a spell they were counting on for defense; they still get a nice chunk of damage. The opponent is afforded CC immunity since he used the requite stamina to break free.
• We still need to ensure this spell isn't spammed so any target with CC immunity is unaffected by the reflect debuff.
• I still think the spirit of this spell should be defensive as that was its original design. And I wrote an entire post of how I'm sick and tired of classes losing their distinctiveness so I don't want to see it turned into some facsimile of the Warden's reflect skill (which, btw, is what templars should have received a long time ago). It's discouraging enough what's on the PTS is a poor man's Sorcerer's Curse
• So the base Spell of Eclipse and its two morphs both Reflect. They are not meant to be used as delayed burst damage skills.
• The original duration, 6 seconds, was fine. ZoS likes 6 seconds. It doesn't matter in any event because players will do as they always have, CC break it or seek a cleanse.
• In keeping with the idea that templars cast this skill to defend themselves, there should be defense benefits even if it is removed by an opponent. In fact, Reflect spells such as Defensive Posture and Dragonfire Scales offer their user benefits even when not reflecting stuff. So should Eclipse. I am not a fan of generic buffs that have homogenized the classes so I'd rather not go minor protection or something like that...
• ... instead for 6 seconds, the Templar receives a minor cost reductions to block, CC break, and roll dodge, say 4%. If templars are meant to stay in their "house" please give them the tools to do so that aren't of the generic variety easily accessible by everyone.
• Now we need two morphs.
• Total Dark: This morph has always healed the Templar. No reason to change it.
• Unstable Core: The effect of this morph is now rolled into the mechanic to discourage targets from willy-nilly ignoring their cleansing allies so it needs to be redone. It was the offensive morph, so put a lingering debuff on the opponent if they don't cleanse; a DoT is fine, minor main/vulnerability are natural but boring, or some unique Templar thing would be even better

.

My line of thinking is is. The original version reflected everything in the game and templars still didn't like it. I, and everyone who played before the Imperial City update, played with that capability and nobody thought it was OP. But I think some people may freak out. So the way I approached this was I had to buff the original spell to make it more appealing despite making its core effect weaker.

Enter in "direct damage." Reduced effect. We are halfway there.

More appealing ... despite weaker effect. Give templars defensive benefits no matter what (4% reductions). Punish players for ignoring cooperative gameplay with the more damaging explosion.

It's not a total redesign. I'm just reverting the abilities original functionality and tweaking it. ZoS could put this on the PTS next week

bubbygink

Joy_Division wrote: »

As a Magicka Nightblade, I would feel unfairly singled out.

*Sigh* It's okay, we're used to feeling this way.

Great write-up! As a console player I haven't had the chance to test this skill on the PTS. You mentioned that purge will remove it which I did not know. Do you know if mistform also removes it? The current version of the skill is removed when you go into mist form. If mistform also removes the new version of the skill then mistform could act as a purge for it by just hitting mistform then immediately leaving it.

bikerangelol

This skill is currently broken on the PTS. Resource guards can literally spam it on you for 100% uptime since you can't break the CC, and coupled with the multiple CC bugs with the resource guard bash attacks and hard CC in that glowing orb thing, it's even worse than before.

Making this skill actually worth slotting on our ability bars is impossible for ZOS. They've proven this over and over again by butchering the core mechanics (pun intended) until it's become completely useless. I read everything in the post; your criticism, your proposal, the history of the skill (which I witnessed myself), and how it could potentially become viable. Joy, when you're not preaching to the choir, your posts are falling on the devs' deaf ears. I'm not saying they aren't listening, I'm just saying they're not willing to invest any effort into giving this skill a "dark deal" makeover.

NightbladeMechanics

Aww Joy, thank you for this. Now we just need ZOS to care enough about the integrity of their game to do it..

bikerangelol wrote: »

This skill is currently broken on the PTS. Resource guards can literally spam it on you for 100% uptime since you can't break the CC, and coupled with the multiple CC bugs with the resource guard bash attacks and hard CC in that glowing orb thing, it's even worse than before.

Making this skill actually worth slotting on our ability bars is impossible for ZOS. They've proven this over and over again by butchering the core mechanics (pun intended) until it's become completely useless. I read everything in the post; your criticism, your proposal, the history of the skill (which I witnessed myself), and how it could potentially become viable. Joy, when you're not preaching to the choir, your posts are falling on the devs' deaf ears. I'm not saying they aren't listening, I'm just saying they're not willing to invest any effort into giving this skill a "dark deal" makeover.

First paragraph, oh dear god..

Second paragraph, yea that is likely how this is going to go down.

usmcjdking

This skill just needs to silence.

Ashamray

I remember those times when Eclipse reflected many things and had a very interesting feature. If you were accurate enough, you could cast it on enemy in the middle of projectile's flight. When projectile reached you it turned back to the caster. That was nice! Old Eclipse even required some skill \ reaction and was not very niche. Since then it has been getting worse and worse. Now it is very, very strange - it's OP af in few sitiations, pointless in majority of others, and broken against npc. Wow!

NightbladeMechanics

usmcjdking wrote: »

This skill just needs to silence.

I really like where this idea is going. It's simple and unique.

One morph could even silence stamina?

timidobserver

If I'm not having fun neither should my target.

Xsorus

Its been a while since the ability was used on me, But I just want to point out...the last time it was I was playing Magicka on my DK and it did work on my Whip..and i'm not joking.

Joy_Division

Xsorus wrote: »

Its been a while since the ability was used on me, But I just want to point out...the last time it was I was playing Magicka on my DK and it did work on my Whip..and i'm not joking.

The original skill used to reflect everything. Remember when DKs went flying when they tried to talon spam while eclipsed The Tower resource guards still use the old version, that's probably what you are remembering. Which makes the thought of them spamming unbreakable eclipses amusing, well it would be if we were just watching rather than playing.

@bikerangelol - probably. Sometimes it's difficult to contain my idealistic nature. But the PTS cycles quickly make that easier and now that I have had my say about the new patch, I'm just going to read these forums for the comic relief that always accompanies them

@timidobserver - funniest thing I read all day!

.

usmcjdking

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

This skill just needs to silence.

I really like where this idea is going. It's simple and unique.

One morph could even silence stamina?

So ideally it would work something like this.

Total Dark would silence the target for it's duration but you can break free from it. Some people might think this sucks, but it becomes a significantly more powerful disorient in solo applications vs. opponents difficult to CC. When the effect ends, they take a moderate amount of damage.

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

Single target, immediate silence. AOE silence that has a long build up and can easily be purged off. That's what real morph selection looks like because they are both very potent in certain circumstances.

Solariken

Well-said as always. I have always hated this skill, even in its prime.

How about this:

You cast the globe on a target and it explodes for moderate damage after 3.5 seconds (5 seconds with the duration passive). While the globe is active though, a percentage of all damage done to the Templar is redirected to the globed target.

Then having purge/cleanse be the only counter would be acceptable because the victim has full control over their other defenses and can still be fully offensive if desired. No interaction with CC immunity is necessary.

NightbladeMechanics

Xsorus wrote: »

Its been a while since the ability was used on me, But I just want to point out...the last time it was I was playing Magicka on my DK and it did work on my Whip..and i'm not joking.

Pretty sure it still reflects power lash, but I might be remembering incorrectly.

usmcjdking wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

This skill just needs to silence.

I really like where this idea is going. It's simple and unique.

One morph could even silence stamina?

So ideally it would work something like this.

Total Dark would silence the target for it's duration but you can break free from it. Some people might think this sucks, but it becomes a significantly more powerful disorient in solo applications vs. opponents difficult to CC. When the effect ends, they take a moderate amount of damage.

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

Single target, immediate silence. AOE silence that has a long build up and can easily be purged off. That's what real morph selection looks like because they are both very potent in certain circumstances.

How long would the aoe silence last for, or can it be broken free from as well? Because few people will have ready access to a purge, and the templar can just reapply unstable core during a purify synergy's cooldown.

JD, I really like the way these sound. There will be two classes with reflects next patch, but the only silence is negate. It would be cool for templars to have a toned down non-ult source.

I still want stam to get silenced, though. Show them our pain!

Fuxo

I agree that both morphs should just silence the target.
Total Dark morph could silence right away for longer and Unstable Core would drain magicka and give to the templar and silence after the explosion for shorter time.

UppGRAYxDD

I like the silence version if ever put in...or how about a DoT buff when it's up..or dare I say"give us blinding light back?"

Solariken

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

This skill just needs to silence.

I really like where this idea is going. It's simple and unique.

One morph could even silence stamina?

We might say "disarm" but stamina in this game is more like green magic.

GallantGuardian

I say remove it and bring blinding light back

dodgehopper_ESO

I hate eclipse, and really wish they'd just give us a self buff and call it a day.

Lore_lai

usmcjdking wrote: »

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

So...umm...kinda like the Eclipse Field in vMoL?
***
Jokes aside - great post, @Joy_Division !

usmcjdking

Lore_lai wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

So...umm...kinda like the Eclipse Field in vMoL?
***
Jokes aside - great post, @Joy_Division !

Basically yes, like the eclipse field. The snare wouldn't be as potent (since you're only getting 40% sacred ground snare), but Templar lacks any serious AOE CC tools wherein the other classes have access to one if not many.

Lore_lai

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

So...umm...kinda like the Eclipse Field in vMoL?
***
Jokes aside - great post, @Joy_Division !

Basically yes, like the eclipse field. The snare wouldn't be as potent (since you're only getting 40% sacred ground snare), but Templar lacks any serious AOE CC tools wherein the other classes have access to one if not many.

Why would it proc Sacred Ground?
I kinda like the idea
.
.
.
....if it silences stamina too
But I think it needs to remain breakable because otherwise it would be way too strong against specs that cannot purge.
Maybe leave a debuff after the break, à la Fear or something so that it's not completely wasted.

NBrookus

As someone who has pushed for one morph of DK standard to be a stamina negate... I think giving it to templars would suit their class better. Total Dark heals you as it does now... but unstable core negates stam abilities.

Right now unless you are a templar, taking a resource on a magicka toon is insanely annoying with the non-stop CC, negates and eclipses. Stam toons can ignore most of it.

If a templar, in their house, could shut down dizzying swing/rapid strikes/dawnbreaker/etc. melee stam skills, that would really be unique.

Xsorus

Make it a near sight, if anyone played DAOC they'd instantly know what I'm referring to.

Toc de Malsvi

@Joy_Division

Great post, don't agree with everything but I liked your proposed changes. Appreciate that you can acknowledge how frustrating this skill would be to those trying to run a ranged setup.

Don't use Snipe, not restricted to ganking, most of my attacks are projectiles and this skill as it stands is very much not fun.

Being able to CC break in the past does ruin the point of the skill, thus as proposed a penalty of damage or debuff would both keep the skill from entirely locking you down but make you make hard choices as to whether you really wanted to attack right now.

ofSunhold

usmcjdking wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

This skill just needs to silence.

I really like where this idea is going. It's simple and unique.

One morph could even silence stamina?

So ideally it would work something like this.

Total Dark would silence the target for it's duration but you can break free from it. Some people might think this sucks, but it becomes a significantly more powerful disorient in solo applications vs. opponents difficult to CC. When the effect ends, they take a moderate amount of damage.

Unstable Core would not initially silence. It would work more like proximity det - after 5 seconds, it will explode and silence everything around it for 3-4 seconds.

Single target, immediate silence. AOE silence that has a long build up and can easily be purged off. That's what real morph selection looks like because they are both very potent in certain circumstances.

Oh my god yes. Yessss precious it silences yesssss

Drinks are on me if this ever happens.

Saint_Bud

Best is to remove the skill completly from the game and replace it with that skill that was originally the jesus beam skill. Than it would be used.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Best part of the old eclipse was that you could cast it on an opponent while a projectile is in the air and it would still reflect. It also was very useful when projectiles could be double reflected.

It really needs a cost reduction so stamina templars could use it as well. I think both morphs should reflect, one should heal, the other should explode on CC break, and of course it should reflect mid-air projectiles like it used to.

Baconlad

Man...unstable core is fkng amazing. They reduced cost as well and lessened the time on it to explode. With purifying light, unstable core, javelin and dark flare or radiant opression...that is a STUPID amount of burst. Most players dont understand whats about to hit them before its too late. 87k exploding in two seconds without ulti, and without major sorcory is about the best burst you can achieve in game. (Er...the tests were done on target skellie while learning best rotation of skills). But ive seen 37k in cyrodil...add in another dark flare javy combo just incase they arent dead and its game over

Waffennacht

Baconlad wrote: »

Man...unstable core is fkng amazing. They reduced cost as well and lessened the time on it to explode. With purifying light, unstable core, javelin and dark flare or radiant opression...that is a STUPID amount of burst. Most players dont understand whats about to hit them before its too late. 87k exploding in two seconds without ulti, and without major sorcory is about the best burst you can achieve in game. (Er...the tests were done on target skellie while learning best rotation of skills). But ive seen 37k in cyrodil...add in another dark flare javy combo just incase they arent dead and its game over

Dude shut up! It's mag Sorcs that are OP

Qbiken

Make it impossible to remove/cc break and reduce the duration from 6 seconds to maybe 2-3 seconds. Make one of the morphs reflect the damage but no heal, and the other morph heals you (but the target doesn´t take any damage from their reflected attacks. Aka the shield around the target "absorbs" the projectile.)

With this suggestion you either have to go healing/defensive route or an offensive one.

Erynyes

skill is annoying yes, but whenever i get it on me i just mist form, it remove the bubble