Please make Dark Exchange charge its cost if it's interrupted.

Mojomonkeyman · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

If they continue buffing heavy attacks, then yes, those will become meta, and yes, stam sorcs and other classes will eliminate other sources of sustain from their builds in favor of heavies. Congratulations, you understand how meta shifting works.

But things come around and go around. Even if Dark Exchange falls out of the meta for stam sorcs next patch, if and when ZOS nerfs heavy attacks or further constricts sustain or in any other way shifts the meta in certain ways, Dark Exchange could rise right back to its current prominence, which it's held since Dark Brotherhood patch a year ago. The ability will be no less powerful and one-sided next patch. It may just be unnecessary if ZOS buffs heavies enough. Dark Exchange still needs attention, and has needed it for four patches now.

Also magicka sorcs have never relied on Dark Exchange.

Dark Exchange does not require a target to fire at, especially not a melee one like many heavy attacks. It will have those differences.

The goblin costume does not conceal the crystals formed under the player's feet by the Dark Exchange animation. The goblin costume only prevents Dark Exchange from being bashed by potatoes.

And good players will adapt to anything. That doesn't mean mechanics cannot be overpowered or lack counterplay. You would have been able to perform well on your stam sorc through the last four patches without Dark Deal, but did you not perform better with it? Your personal competence with a class or ability is no bar by which to judge its state of balance.

Your argument here is that heavy attacks are going to be op, not that Dark Exchange is balanced. Distinguish the two.

Oh please, don't tell me what my argument is. I'm realisically comparing options to return ressources in the upcoming version of the game. No other implications.

And I am questioning your ability to see the "bigger" picture in case dark deal is the biggest of your problems with morrowind. You want to sacrifice a lamb, I get it. Do it, I don't care. But don't pretend do be a white knight, you are just serving your own agenda.

Erynyes · May 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Your last comment prompted me to look up the history of Dark Exchange. So I fired up the forum search. The skill has had 3 changes so far:

1.6.5, March 2015

Dark Exchange
It is now possible to move while channeling all ranks and morphs of Dark Exchange.
Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

2.3.5, March 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 20%, but they now return 20% more Health, Magicka, or Stamina.

2.4.5, May 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of resources gained from this ability and its morphs: Health by 100%, Stamina and Magicka by 75%.

1.6.5 was the change that brought Dark Exchange for stam Sorcs and removed one thing that was always a hindrance in using it, as not being able to move is a death sentence in Cyrodiil.

Almost exactly after a year and the fact that nobody used it because the cast time and the low return still made it impractical, the skill got its first slight buff.

It was still not widely used, and then @Wrobel came in and said he wanted it to be exciting. You see: It was always interruptible and it never charged the cost on interrupt. Even a 20% buff didn't prompt people to use it. It was only after the return was practically doubled that players began using it.

Thus it's very safe to say that Dark Exchange is indeed on the verge of being unused again. Thanks @Mojomonkeyman for your posts, they reflect my opinion on this exactly.

you want the ressource return to be the same as on live FINE, why would you get refund and CC immunity if i bash you ffs, if you use it when vulnerable you should be punish, how hard is it to understand, i don't want it nerf, i want it balanced. Punishing c areless play won't render the skill useless

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Erynyes wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Your last comment prompted me to look up the history of Dark Exchange. So I fired up the forum search. The skill has had 3 changes so far:

1.6.5, March 2015

Dark Exchange
It is now possible to move while channeling all ranks and morphs of Dark Exchange.
Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

2.3.5, March 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 20%, but they now return 20% more Health, Magicka, or Stamina.

2.4.5, May 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of resources gained from this ability and its morphs: Health by 100%, Stamina and Magicka by 75%.

1.6.5 was the change that brought Dark Exchange for stam Sorcs and removed one thing that was always a hindrance in using it, as not being able to move is a death sentence in Cyrodiil.

Almost exactly after a year and the fact that nobody used it because the cast time and the low return still made it impractical, the skill got its first slight buff.

It was still not widely used, and then @Wrobel came in and said he wanted it to be exciting. You see: It was always interruptible and it never charged the cost on interrupt. Even a 20% buff didn't prompt people to use it. It was only after the return was practically doubled that players began using it.

Thus it's very safe to say that Dark Exchange is indeed on the verge of being unused again. Thanks @Mojomonkeyman for your posts, they reflect my opinion on this exactly.

you want the ressource return to be the same as on live FINE, why would you get refund and CC immunity if i bash you ffs, if you use it when vulnerable you should be punish, how hard is it to understand, i don't want it nerf, i want it balanced. Punishing c areless play won't render the skill useless

Because not a single skill with a cast time consumes resources if it gets interrupted "ffs".

Feanor · May 2017

1) No Sotc gets resources if interrupted
2) I'll be using heavy attacks and not Dark Conversion as heavy restos with hardened Ward into Healing Ward will be a lot better than Dark Conversion in the current state could ever give

Biro123 · May 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Your last comment prompted me to look up the history of Dark Exchange. So I fired up the forum search. The skill has had 3 changes so far:

1.6.5, March 2015

Dark Exchange
It is now possible to move while channeling all ranks and morphs of Dark Exchange.
Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

2.3.5, March 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 20%, but they now return 20% more Health, Magicka, or Stamina.

2.4.5, May 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of resources gained from this ability and its morphs: Health by 100%, Stamina and Magicka by 75%.

1.6.5 was the change that brought Dark Exchange for stam Sorcs and removed one thing that was always a hindrance in using it, as not being able to move is a death sentence in Cyrodiil.

Almost exactly after a year and the fact that nobody used it because the cast time and the low return still made it impractical, the skill got its first slight buff.

It was still not widely used, and then @Wrobel came in and said he wanted it to be exciting. You see: It was always interruptible and it never charged the cost on interrupt. Even a 20% buff didn't prompt people to use it. It was only after the return was practically doubled that players began using it.

Thus it's very safe to say that Dark Exchange is indeed on the verge of being unused again. Thanks @Mojomonkeyman for your posts, they reflect my opinion on this exactly.

iirc. A big factor that started it getting used was introducing constitution as a means of restoring both stam and mag - which has a huge nerf in morrowind..

Derra · May 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Your last comment prompted me to look up the history of Dark Exchange. So I fired up the forum search. The skill has had 3 changes so far:

1.6.5, March 2015

Dark Exchange
It is now possible to move while channeling all ranks and morphs of Dark Exchange.
Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

2.3.5, March 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 20%, but they now return 20% more Health, Magicka, or Stamina.

2.4.5, May 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of resources gained from this ability and its morphs: Health by 100%, Stamina and Magicka by 75%.

1.6.5 was the change that brought Dark Exchange for stam Sorcs and removed one thing that was always a hindrance in using it, as not being able to move is a death sentence in Cyrodiil.

Almost exactly after a year and the fact that nobody used it because the cast time and the low return still made it impractical, the skill got its first slight buff.

It was still not widely used, and then @Wrobel came in and said he wanted it to be exciting. You see: It was always interruptible and it never charged the cost on interrupt. Even a 20% buff didn't prompt people to use it. It was only after the return was practically doubled that players began using it.

Thus it's very safe to say that Dark Exchange is indeed on the verge of being unused again. Thanks @Mojomonkeyman for your posts, they reflect my opinion on this exactly.

iirc. A big factor that started it getting used was introducing constitution as a means of restoring both stam and mag - which has a huge nerf in morrowind..

constitution for heavy and orzogas gold food of blahblah bear whatever.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

If they continue buffing heavy attacks, then yes, those will become meta, and yes, stam sorcs and other classes will eliminate other sources of sustain from their builds in favor of heavies. Congratulations, you understand how meta shifting works.

But things come around and go around. Even if Dark Exchange falls out of the meta for stam sorcs next patch, if and when ZOS nerfs heavy attacks or further constricts sustain or in any other way shifts the meta in certain ways, Dark Exchange could rise right back to its current prominence, which it's held since Dark Brotherhood patch a year ago. The ability will be no less powerful and one-sided next patch. It may just be unnecessary if ZOS buffs heavies enough. Dark Exchange still needs attention, and has needed it for four patches now.

Also magicka sorcs have never relied on Dark Exchange.

Dark Exchange does not require a target to fire at, especially not a melee one like many heavy attacks. It will have those differences.

The goblin costume does not conceal the crystals formed under the player's feet by the Dark Exchange animation. The goblin costume only prevents Dark Exchange from being bashed by potatoes.

And good players will adapt to anything. That doesn't mean mechanics cannot be overpowered or lack counterplay. You would have been able to perform well on your stam sorc through the last four patches without Dark Deal, but did you not perform better with it? Your personal competence with a class or ability is no bar by which to judge its state of balance.

Your argument here is that heavy attacks are going to be op, not that Dark Exchange is balanced. Distinguish the two.

Oh please, don't tell me what my argument is. I'm realisically comparing options to return ressources in the upcoming version of the game. No other implications.

And I am questioning your ability to see the "bigger" picture in case dark deal is the biggest of your problems with morrowind. You want to sacrifice a lamb, I get it. Do it, I don't care. But don't pretend do be a white knight, you are just serving your own agenda.

Dark Deal is not my biggest problem with Morrowind. Lol far from it.

But it is one concern which the majority of the community shares, and rightfully so.

Don't come in here with poor arguments if you don't want them criticized. You spoke up in defense of Dark Exchange not on the premise that Dark Exchange is balanced, but that heavy attacks will be more op next patch following their recent series of buffs. That does not excuse Dark Exchange from criticism. Perhaps you should consider posting in one of the threads warning ZOS against overbuffing heavy attacks instead of here.

And what is my agenda, exactly? You're the sorc player valiantly defending your skill with a straw man argument. I'm the sorc player criticizing my own tools.

Derra · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

If they continue buffing heavy attacks, then yes, those will become meta, and yes, stam sorcs and other classes will eliminate other sources of sustain from their builds in favor of heavies. Congratulations, you understand how meta shifting works.

But things come around and go around. Even if Dark Exchange falls out of the meta for stam sorcs next patch, if and when ZOS nerfs heavy attacks or further constricts sustain or in any other way shifts the meta in certain ways, Dark Exchange could rise right back to its current prominence, which it's held since Dark Brotherhood patch a year ago. The ability will be no less powerful and one-sided next patch. It may just be unnecessary if ZOS buffs heavies enough. Dark Exchange still needs attention, and has needed it for four patches now.

Also magicka sorcs have never relied on Dark Exchange.

Dark Exchange does not require a target to fire at, especially not a melee one like many heavy attacks. It will have those differences.

The goblin costume does not conceal the crystals formed under the player's feet by the Dark Exchange animation. The goblin costume only prevents Dark Exchange from being bashed by potatoes.

And good players will adapt to anything. That doesn't mean mechanics cannot be overpowered or lack counterplay. You would have been able to perform well on your stam sorc through the last four patches without Dark Deal, but did you not perform better with it? Your personal competence with a class or ability is no bar by which to judge its state of balance.

Your argument here is that heavy attacks are going to be op, not that Dark Exchange is balanced. Distinguish the two.

Oh please, don't tell me what my argument is. I'm realisically comparing options to return ressources in the upcoming version of the game. No other implications.

And I am questioning your ability to see the "bigger" picture in case dark deal is the biggest of your problems with morrowind. You want to sacrifice a lamb, I get it. Do it, I don't care. But don't pretend do be a white knight, you are just serving your own agenda.

Dark Deal is not my biggest problem with Morrowind. Lol far from it.

But it is one concern which the majority of the community shares, and rightfully so.

Don't come in here with poor arguments if you don't want them criticized. You spoke up in defense of Dark Exchange not on the premise that Dark Exchange is balanced, but that heavy attacks will be more op next patch following their recent series of buffs. That does not excuse Dark Exchange from criticism. Perhaps you should consider posting in one of the threads warning ZOS against overbuffing heavy attacks instead of here.

And what is my agenda, exactly? You're the sorc player valiantly defending your skill with a straw man argument. I'm the sorc player criticizing my own tools.

Then would you mind explaining what about dark deal is op?
Why are people already refraining from using it on the current live version?

I´m the sorc magica player saying dark deal even in it´s current state is not worth using against competent players (which is honestly all i care about).
It´s a core skill for stamsorcs and i find it balanced on medium armor on live.
I also find it to be balanced on heavy armor on pts.

What exactly is the scenario you see dark deal overperforming in (with the next patch)? I think the effective 20% increase in casttime alongside the 20% animation time increase (delay for casting abilities after casttime skills) is huge already.

Feanor · May 2017

Actually, seeing the suggestions in this thread (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/345125/upcoming-sorc-nerfs#latest) I'd rather have Dark Exchange nerfed

@Derra

+1

Mojomonkeyman · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

If they continue buffing heavy attacks, then yes, those will become meta, and yes, stam sorcs and other classes will eliminate other sources of sustain from their builds in favor of heavies. Congratulations, you understand how meta shifting works.

But things come around and go around. Even if Dark Exchange falls out of the meta for stam sorcs next patch, if and when ZOS nerfs heavy attacks or further constricts sustain or in any other way shifts the meta in certain ways, Dark Exchange could rise right back to its current prominence, which it's held since Dark Brotherhood patch a year ago. The ability will be no less powerful and one-sided next patch. It may just be unnecessary if ZOS buffs heavies enough. Dark Exchange still needs attention, and has needed it for four patches now.

Also magicka sorcs have never relied on Dark Exchange.

Dark Exchange does not require a target to fire at, especially not a melee one like many heavy attacks. It will have those differences.

The goblin costume does not conceal the crystals formed under the player's feet by the Dark Exchange animation. The goblin costume only prevents Dark Exchange from being bashed by potatoes.

And good players will adapt to anything. That doesn't mean mechanics cannot be overpowered or lack counterplay. You would have been able to perform well on your stam sorc through the last four patches without Dark Deal, but did you not perform better with it? Your personal competence with a class or ability is no bar by which to judge its state of balance.

Your argument here is that heavy attacks are going to be op, not that Dark Exchange is balanced. Distinguish the two.

Oh please, don't tell me what my argument is. I'm realisically comparing options to return ressources in the upcoming version of the game. No other implications.

And I am questioning your ability to see the "bigger" picture in case dark deal is the biggest of your problems with morrowind. You want to sacrifice a lamb, I get it. Do it, I don't care. But don't pretend do be a white knight, you are just serving your own agenda.

Dark Deal is not my biggest problem with Morrowind. Lol far from it.

But it is one concern which the majority of the community shares, and rightfully so.

Don't come in here with poor arguments if you don't want them criticized. You spoke up in defense of Dark Exchange not on the premise that Dark Exchange is balanced, but that heavy attacks will be more op next patch following their recent series of buffs. That does not excuse Dark Exchange from criticism. Perhaps you should consider posting in one of the threads warning ZOS against overbuffing heavy attacks instead of here.

And what is my agenda, exactly? You're the sorc player valiantly defending your skill with a straw man argument. I'm the sorc player criticizing my own tools.

"Poor" arguments? That's entirely based on your opinion, you werent able to refute, you just tried to distract. Actually, most good players I talk to bring exactly the same arguments.

Well, I like to learn where people are coming from when complaining. So i skimmed through ur posts before doing the first comment in here and I think I am not too far off saying that you identify most with magNB.

Since magNB is the single setup in my experience that has the most problems to keep up with dark deal spam due to the playstyle of wanting to keep your opponent on distance and not wanting to use crushing. I can see where you are coming from, it's rather obvious. But you know what, that just makes the skill very good against magNBs, but still very poor against in your face playstyles. Like many things in ESO. Your POV just makes it a huge problem for YOUR playstyle.

Apart from that, the majority of the player base is below average in player skill and clueles in terms of competitive insisghts into pvp balancing, theres a reason good pvp forums give balance post rigths to experienced, recognized players only. Additionally, I don't even think the vast majority would agree to your ideas if they wouldve tried themselve to DD vs players who know what they are doing. Again, I call all you EU complainers out to hop on your OP stamsorcs and show me how great your dark dealing works against me.

STEVIL · May 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

i have been noted as not being a nerf sorc fanatic, far from it, but IMO...
dark deal and all its flavors should:
1 - on interrupt lose the feeder, if other casting times do. Should not be an exception.
2 - have a 4s window where after a successful cast EITHER cost is increased or gains reduced*. too much gained from a 3s window of opportunity for 2 casts right now IMO.

that is even while acknowledging that it is already a sustain vs dps trade-off in its own right, unlike many passive sustains.

*personally, i think the 4s windows on dodge roll and streak should also be "reduced gains" not increased costs but that is me. let quick succession dodges drop the odds to 50/50 not 1005 and let quick repeat streak cover half the distance... for example. Reduce spamming that trick itself not everything else by hitting costs.

Again, why would anyone use that version of DD, if they can get similar effects with heavy attacks while getting BUFFS (resto: major mending, destro: mag on kill + element specifics, 2h: empowered, ...), multiple other gameplay benefits (as mentioned a few posts above) and doesnt make me as vulnerable?

Please tell me, you have thought that through from to pov of a user, because what you just posted was just a bunch of ignorance instead of actually considering trade-offs. A DD user will NEVER compare it to the choices other classes have when thinking about choosing the skill, he will think whether or not it offers benefits in comparison to other ressource restore mechanics available to him.

There is no reason to ever use the skill you just suggested, when looking at PTS heavy attacks.

What?

First, i did not reduce the effectiveness of a single dd cast.... it yields the same as it does now if its successful. Is it used now? Yes.

Among other reasons the health gains.

My changes only affected the penalty for failure and the ability to spam it.

So why do this instead of hvy att? You gain magica and health or stamina and health with more than you can gain from a hvy attack in the same timeframe.

I use dd/dc all the time in my magsorc and stamsorc chars. I even throw it on approach for the 20s crit bonus.

So unless heavy attacks can be used while evading or suddenly start healing my sorc quickly while restoring resources, nag... dont see the extreme reaction you has as warranted.

Mojomonkeyman · May 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

i have been noted as not being a nerf sorc fanatic, far from it, but IMO...
dark deal and all its flavors should:
1 - on interrupt lose the feeder, if other casting times do. Should not be an exception.
2 - have a 4s window where after a successful cast EITHER cost is increased or gains reduced*. too much gained from a 3s window of opportunity for 2 casts right now IMO.

that is even while acknowledging that it is already a sustain vs dps trade-off in its own right, unlike many passive sustains.

*personally, i think the 4s windows on dodge roll and streak should also be "reduced gains" not increased costs but that is me. let quick succession dodges drop the odds to 50/50 not 1005 and let quick repeat streak cover half the distance... for example. Reduce spamming that trick itself not everything else by hitting costs.

Again, why would anyone use that version of DD, if they can get similar effects with heavy attacks while getting BUFFS (resto: major mending, destro: mag on kill + element specifics, 2h: empowered, ...), multiple other gameplay benefits (as mentioned a few posts above) and doesnt make me as vulnerable?

Please tell me, you have thought that through from to pov of a user, because what you just posted was just a bunch of ignorance instead of actually considering trade-offs. A DD user will NEVER compare it to the choices other classes have when thinking about choosing the skill, he will think whether or not it offers benefits in comparison to other ressource restore mechanics available to him.

There is no reason to ever use the skill you just suggested, when looking at PTS heavy attacks.

What?

First, i did not reduce the effectiveness of a single dd cast.... it yields the same as it does now if its successful. Is it used now? Yes.

Among other reasons the health gains.

My changes only affected the penalty for failure and the ability to spam it.

So why do this instead of hvy att? You gain magica and health or stamina and health with more than you can gain from a hvy attack in the same timeframe.

I use dd/dc all the time in my magsorc and stamsorc chars. I even throw it on approach for the 20s crit bonus.

So unless heavy attacks can be used while evading or suddenly start healing my sorc quickly while restoring resources, nag... dont see the extreme reaction you has as warranted.

I actually agree on the ressource cost application by interrupt. I just think the trade-off of "losing" a slot for dark deal, when I could just heavy attack with another slot being available AND not being punished would make me not chose dark deal anymore if you would apply further penalties to spam casting. I'd be simply better off doing that, efficiency wise.

Edziu · May 2017

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Are Sorcs really this scared of being balanced?Are you guys really defending this?Like come on.

Yes we are scared of being "balanced" either by Wrobel or the forum community. You can ask non permablock DKs specifically how that will turn out. No thank you, we'd rather have a tiny bit of class distinction and some fun left when we log in to our Sorcs. It was not long ago that Sorcs were close to extinct in Cyro, when the stam overlords ruled everything. We don't want that again. Is that so hard to get at all? Fine, tweak any skill you like if you think it's the reason Sorc is OP. All you gonna accomplish is the bad Sorcs hopping to the next FOTM and the good ones still wrecking you. If that's worth wrecking the class - by all means go ahead.

FloppyTouch wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Yet, at some stage last year, magicka sorcerer class was dead in pvp, after the class was nerfed. Stamina builds become the flavor of the month/months.
People are not going to be satisfied until every class is limited to bashing each other with sticks, or throwing rocks at one another.

That's funny bc I don't ever remember magic sorc being bottom ever. Was once awhile when Stam was on top but next best thing was a magic sorc.

Derra · May 2017

Edziu wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Yet, at some stage last year, magicka sorcerer class was dead in pvp, after the class was nerfed. Stamina builds become the flavor of the month/months.
People are not going to be satisfied until every class is limited to bashing each other with sticks, or throwing rocks at one another.

That's funny bc I don't ever remember magic sorc being bottom ever. Was once awhile when Stam was on top but next best thing was a magic sorc.

Magsorc was basically reduced to streak + negate for patch 1.4 and 1.5.
thieves guilds up until soth weren´t exactly mag sorc patches aswell (but nothing has been as bad as magDK since 1.6 - so they were not bottom tier yeah).

Edziu · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Yet, at some stage last year, magicka sorcerer class was dead in pvp, after the class was nerfed. Stamina builds become the flavor of the month/months.
People are not going to be satisfied until every class is limited to bashing each other with sticks, or throwing rocks at one another.

That's funny bc I don't ever remember magic sorc being bottom ever. Was once awhile when Stam was on top but next best thing was a magic sorc.

Magsorc was basically reduced to streak + negate for patch 1.4 and 1.5.
thieves guilds up until soth weren´t exactly mag sorc patches aswell (but nothing has been as bad as magDK since 1.6 - so they were not bottom tier yeah).

they was reduced to this state while magdk was still godmode, after end of godmode on dk sorc was never on bottom like this dk, templar some and ofc nb...yes every of this classes had time to be on top but was never that very long on very good place as sorc

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Edziu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Yet, at some stage last year, magicka sorcerer class was dead in pvp, after the class was nerfed. Stamina builds become the flavor of the month/months.
People are not going to be satisfied until every class is limited to bashing each other with sticks, or throwing rocks at one another.

That's funny bc I don't ever remember magic sorc being bottom ever. Was once awhile when Stam was on top but next best thing was a magic sorc.

Magsorc was basically reduced to streak + negate for patch 1.4 and 1.5.
thieves guilds up until soth weren´t exactly mag sorc patches aswell (but nothing has been as bad as magDK since 1.6 - so they were not bottom tier yeah).

they was reduced to this state while magdk was still godmode, after end of godmode on dk sorc was never on bottom like this dk, templar some and ofc nb...yes every of this classes had time to be on top but was never that very long on very good place as sorc

And your conclusion is? Sounds a lot like sour grapes as this doesn't contribute to the topic (Dark exchange).

KingJ · May 2017

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Are Sorcs really this scared of being balanced?Are you guys really defending this?Like come on.

Yes we are scared of being "balanced" either by Wrobel or the forum community. You can ask non permablock DKs specifically how that will turn out. No thank you, we'd rather have a tiny bit of class distinction and some fun left when we log in to our Sorcs. It was not long ago that Sorcs were close to extinct in Cyro, when the stam overlords ruled everything. We don't want that again. Is that so hard to get at all? Fine, tweak any skill you like if you think it's the reason Sorc is OP. All you gonna accomplish is the bad Sorcs hopping to the next FOTM and the good ones still wrecking you. If that's worth wrecking the class - by all means go ahead.

I got it you don't want to be balanced and on par with other classes thank you for proving my point.Sorc are only Happy when they are above all the other classes.I love how making a skill when interrupted not return the cost will break the class dude get real.Hey I killed many sorc and will next patch and already have my sorc ready for the patch when it hit Xbox so I can play the easy mode class.

Magıc · May 2017

Quite obvious sorcs need to be charged the cost for using dark exchange + morphs if interrupted. It's so easy to use (goblin costume, LoS and can also be ani cancelled to make it even harder to interrupt) and so unbalanced with amberplasm next to it. Even non amberplasm builds are running it too, because it's resource gain is just stupidly strong for little to no punishments when being interrupted. I run dark conversion on my 688 stam regen mag sorc and have no trouble sustaining it and I rarely ever get interrupted either.

Juhasow · May 2017

Would be also nice to see some improvements with things happening when it is interrupted. That 0,5 sec sliding on ground is annoying.

Feanor · May 2017

KingJ wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Are Sorcs really this scared of being balanced?Are you guys really defending this?Like come on.

Yes we are scared of being "balanced" either by Wrobel or the forum community. You can ask non permablock DKs specifically how that will turn out. No thank you, we'd rather have a tiny bit of class distinction and some fun left when we log in to our Sorcs. It was not long ago that Sorcs were close to extinct in Cyro, when the stam overlords ruled everything. We don't want that again. Is that so hard to get at all? Fine, tweak any skill you like if you think it's the reason Sorc is OP. All you gonna accomplish is the bad Sorcs hopping to the next FOTM and the good ones still wrecking you. If that's worth wrecking the class - by all means go ahead.

I got it you don't want to be balanced and on par with other classes thank you for proving my point.Sorc are only Happy when they are above all the other classes.I love how making a skill when interrupted not return the cost will break the class dude get real.Hey I killed many sorc and will next patch and already have my sorc ready for the patch when it hit Xbox so I can play the easy mode class.

I just don't want balance by endlessly nerfing stuff. For some people it's just never enough. How about buffing other classes instead!

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

[quote="Magıc;c-4136867"]Quite obvious sorcs need to be charged the cost for using dark exchange + morphs if interrupted. It's so easy to use (goblin costume, LoS and can also be ani cancelled to make it even harder to interrupt) and so unbalanced with amberplasm next to it. Even non amberplasm builds are running it too, because it's resource gain is just stupidly strong for little to no punishments when being interrupted. I run dark conversion on my 688 stam regen mag sorc and have no trouble sustaining it and I rarely ever get interrupted either. [/quote]

"Quite obvious everyone need to be charged the cost for using any skill with a cast time of interrupted."
Fixed that for you.

Then change amberplasm to not *** with builds who don't use it. Hard to gain enough stamina with base regen if you have to break free, sprint, dodge, block and dark exchange with small stam pool.

KingJ wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Are Sorcs really this scared of being balanced?Are you guys really defending this?Like come on.

Yes we are scared of being "balanced" either by Wrobel or the forum community. You can ask non permablock DKs specifically how that will turn out. No thank you, we'd rather have a tiny bit of class distinction and some fun left when we log in to our Sorcs. It was not long ago that Sorcs were close to extinct in Cyro, when the stam overlords ruled everything. We don't want that again. Is that so hard to get at all? Fine, tweak any skill you like if you think it's the reason Sorc is OP. All you gonna accomplish is the bad Sorcs hopping to the next FOTM and the good ones still wrecking you. If that's worth wrecking the class - by all means go ahead.

I got it you don't want to be balanced and on par with other classes thank you for proving my point.Sorc are only Happy when they are above all the other classes.I love how making a skill when interrupted not return the cost will break the class dude get real.Hey I killed many sorc and will next patch and already have my sorc ready for the patch when it hit Xbox so I can play the easy mode class.

You lump every player with a sorc together bc your view and your opinion is the only irrevocably right.

Stamden · May 2017

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Derra · May 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Can you show me the scenario where it´s overperforming in the next patch on pts?

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

I'd gladly trade it for some uninterruptable, fire and forget, instant cast regen-over-time skill and, instead of stop pressuring opponents and fleeing combat/LoS while also my opponent has time to heal back up and recast buffs, just cast it at the start of the battle. No problem, I'd be fine with that. But don't ask for consuming costs if interrupted if every other damn skill with a cast time does not consumes resources when getting interrupted. Gosh I wish I would return resources if my sorc casts a class skill or an ultimate.

Hurricane was nerfed from "gains up to 225% dmg" down to 150%, resulting in -75% max dmg from it. Still too much? What % number would be fine?

Best passives in the game - I think you're talking about implosion. 6% chance of a damage proc that scales with max health if your opponent is under 15%, and that also only procs on physical dmg done while in that margin. Nice but RNG. Take that also away and replace it with something usefull and reliable.
12 passives from which I don't find at least 5 of them usefull at all on a stam sorc. Blood Magic, persistance, exploitation, rebate andexpert summoner won't help you much on an sSorc. Also daedric protection won't do you any favor if you don't run bound aegis, which requieres TWO bar slots. Capacitator is okay, the rest is nice. Implosion is pure RNG and could be replaced with something reliable.

Streak? What is it with streak now? I can streak 3 times on an 18K magicka dunmer stam sorc, but then I haven't enough mag left for d/d or surge. Is that also OP now?

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Can you show me the scenario where it´s overperforming in the next patch on pts?

It will only overperform on the sorcs who either stack the opposite regen for their spec or use Amberplasm.

This interupt thing everyone wants isnt even that bad.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Can you show me the scenario where it´s overperforming in the next patch on pts?

It will only overperform on the sorcs who either stack the opposite regen for their spec or use Amberplasm.

This interupt thing everyone wants isnt even that bad.

There you have it.

Then make interruption cost resources on EVERY cast time skill and not just on this one.

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Can you show me the scenario where it´s overperforming in the next patch on pts?

It will only overperform on the sorcs who either stack the opposite regen for their spec or use Amberplasm.

This interupt thing everyone wants isnt even that bad.

There you have it.

Then make interruption cost resources on EVERY cast time skill and not just on this one.

All channels should cost resources at the start. That is where counterplay is born. Dark deal will be the first channel to test this.

Biro123 · May 2017

I honestly think that kind of setup will result in just too much time spent dark-dealing as opposed to attacking with the cost-reduction gone - unless you're filling in with a ton of heavy attacks in which case you probably don't need to dark deal.

I honestly don't mind if they do nerf It again - I'm not planning on relying on it. I just don't think it'll be that strong anymore as is.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This skill is so stupid I can't believe anyone in here is actually trying to defend it. Even @FENGRUSH admits that Stam Sorcs are ridiculous this patch. You get Hurricane, Streak, and the best passives in the game. Do you really need unpunishable resource management that is 10x more powerful than anything else in the game?

No other class get's anything even remotely close to the resource return from Dark Deal. It's clearly way out of line and you just make yourself look like a fool trying to defend this overpowered skill.

Can you show me the scenario where it´s overperforming in the next patch on pts?

It will only overperform on the sorcs who either stack the opposite regen for their spec or use Amberplasm.

This interupt thing everyone wants isnt even that bad.

There you have it.

Then make interruption cost resources on EVERY cast time skill and not just on this one.

All channels should cost resources at the start. That is where counterplay is born. Dark deal will be the first channel to test this.

The first to test this... really? Just make all cast-timers do this and fine. No need for exceptions.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

And there's the core issue that I'm getting at. Cast time abilities need to charge their costs when successfully interrupted. The caster needs to be punished.

Dark Exchange is but one ability in need of this change. I made it the focus of this thread because it triggers people and fires up discussions, and because this global fix would appease most people's frustrations with Dark Exchange entirely. The ability tooltip is fine imo. The underlying mechanic -- that interrupting channels charges resources while the interrupted player incurs no cost -- is the issue.