Nightblades: What will they bring to the table now?

waitwhat · May 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Gilvoth · May 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

They'll bring AP to the table by sacrificing themselves to the superior classes.

your right, but, we have been doing that since beta 2012 and it is getting old.
the only time we shine is during Gank.
but, now Gank is being ... removed ..

waitwhat · May 2017

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

NBs bring more burst because of the non class changes that happened. They are in a sense buffed because of less heavy armor users, along with master at arms buffing all of their damage. Along with how high befoul can scale now.

@Princess_Asgari

No.

There will still be plenty of heavy armor users as even nerfed consistution/black rose is preferable to near-nonexistent cost reduction in light and medium armor. Those that will wear light and medium armor in PvP are already doing so.

Also, your comment only applies to PvP, not PvE, where nightblades are far, far worse off. Go to craglorn and type "stamblade DPS lf vSO" in zone and the responses you get will say it all.

Master at Arms also buffs everyone else's damage, and the star also has a new direct counter in Ironclad, which reduces all direct damage, along with the existing stars to reduce damage from light and heavy attacks. No bow buff for us.

Defile is only proc'd on incap strike and lethal arrow for a stamblade. Helpful mechanics, but with the nerf to fasalla's guile, healing reduction builds have still taken a hit, to say nothing of the fact that the Changes to befoul also benefit the other classes equally. Every stam class has access to Power Bash and Lethal Arrow, and the other classes have their ways to inflict defile.

We are in no sense buffed.

GriMTriAd · May 2017

So for all of the people saying Nightblades are fine and bring X to the table. Please, enlighten me and tell me very specifically what (as a stamina nightblade) I bring to the PvE table from my class (not from generic stamina skills) and then whether that is enough for your trial group to actually invite me over any other class with similar gear and player skill.

As far as I am aware; I have single target DPS that is about equivalent to MagSorcs, AoE that's abysmal compared to ALL other classes regardless of mag/stam, a stealth ability that is irrelevant in group play, and now an almost entirely (even after the 3.0.2 changes) sustain ability that is still making a poor argument for staying on my bar.

So what ability does my stamina nightblade have in her kit that actually makes her viable to a group? Also, you might want to avoid the things that the other classes have in their kits that are just flat out better. is there even a passive in the Nightblades kit that screams must have? The BEST I have seen from good nightblade characters is that we might be able to generate a little bit more ultimate than other classes but that just relegates us to spamming an ultimate to keep an armor buff on the group. Literally we'll be able to bring one buff that half the classes already bring for themselves.

I'm not screaming buff nightblades, that's not my point. But failing to recognize that stamina nightsblades are effectively just "stamina" because you can literally build the same character with any class is a pretty damning piece of evidence to the contrary of all of these "nightblades are fine and bring x" posts.

I haven't done a full review of magicka nightblades so I can't say if this applies to them as well. But from the little I have read, they're still consistently voted as the worst magicka class in the game in PvE.

So please, enlighten me on which ability I have that I've completely overlooked and need to add to my bar immediately to realize the true power of my selected class?

_WAter_

t3hdubzy · May 2017

Id love to hear the devs resell us each class highlighting strengths and weaknesses in pvp and pve

Asgari · May 2017

waitwhat wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

NBs bring more burst because of the non class changes that happened. They are in a sense buffed because of less heavy armor users, along with master at arms buffing all of their damage. Along with how high befoul can scale now.

@Princess_Asgari

No.

There will still be plenty of heavy armor users as even nerfed consistution/black rose is preferable to near-nonexistent cost reduction in light and medium armor. Those that will wear light and medium armor in PvP are already doing so.

Also, your comment only applies to PvP, not PvE, where nightblades are far, far worse off. Go to craglorn and type "stamblade DPS lf vSO" in zone and the responses you get will say it all.

Master at Arms also buffs everyone else's damage, and the star also has a new direct counter in Ironclad, which reduces all direct damage, along with the existing stars to reduce damage from light and heavy attacks. No bow buff for us.

Defile is only proc'd on incap strike and lethal arrow for a stamblade. Helpful mechanics, but with the nerf to fasalla's guile, healing reduction builds have still taken a hit, to say nothing of the fact that the Changes to befoul also benefit the other classes equally. Every stam class has access to Power Bash and Lethal Arrow, and the other classes have their ways to inflict defile.

We are in no sense buffed.

I was obviously reffering to PVP, i could care less about PVE in this game.

NB got buffed the most by the CP changes because with cost reduction gone and some skill cost increases many users will be forced to drop heavy and move back to light or medium because they simply wont be able to sustain.

Stamblade having major fracture almost 100% uptime having a major defile usable roughly every 10 seconds that got buffed even more in cp is a big deal. Stamblade is the secret top dog in pvp next update with these changes to the cp system and them not getting any reductions in how their dmg works. Master at arms buffs them a lot (just like others), but the way stamblade works it buffs them the most.

Farorin · May 2017

Cowardice. We can still hide like little sissies, and try to cloak away with our perpetually broken ability.

COWARDS UNITE!

Farorin · May 2017

Or we can bring target practice to the game, we may as well help people work on combos by being sitting ducks and getting killed constantly, right?

makreth · May 2017

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

NBs bring more burst because of the non class changes that happened. They are in a sense buffed because of less heavy armor users, along with master at arms buffing all of their damage. Along with how high befoul can scale now.

@Princess_Asgari

No.

There will still be plenty of heavy armor users as even nerfed consistution/black rose is preferable to near-nonexistent cost reduction in light and medium armor. Those that will wear light and medium armor in PvP are already doing so.

Also, your comment only applies to PvP, not PvE, where nightblades are far, far worse off. Go to craglorn and type "stamblade DPS lf vSO" in zone and the responses you get will say it all.

Master at Arms also buffs everyone else's damage, and the star also has a new direct counter in Ironclad, which reduces all direct damage, along with the existing stars to reduce damage from light and heavy attacks. No bow buff for us.

Defile is only proc'd on incap strike and lethal arrow for a stamblade. Helpful mechanics, but with the nerf to fasalla's guile, healing reduction builds have still taken a hit, to say nothing of the fact that the Changes to befoul also benefit the other classes equally. Every stam class has access to Power Bash and Lethal Arrow, and the other classes have their ways to inflict defile.

We are in no sense buffed.

I was obviously reffering to PVP, i could care less about PVE in this game.

NB got buffed the most by the CP changes because with cost reduction gone and some skill cost increases many users will be forced to drop heavy and move back to light or medium because they simply wont be able to sustain.

Stamblade having major fracture almost 100% uptime having a major defile usable roughly every 10 seconds that got buffed even more in cp is a big deal. Stamblade is the secret top dog in pvp next update with these changes to the cp system and them not getting any reductions in how their dmg works. Master at arms buffs them a lot (just like others), but the way stamblade works it buffs them the most.

And you just managed to ignore fully the quote above...

FlyLionel · May 2017

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Free stamina at the end wasnt a buff to what it originally was? Do you honestly expect Zos to make siphoning very powerful? If they do that then betty netch will have to get buffed etc(Sustain cannot be easy mode). Im not going to get into a huge discussion with this; yes siphoning still sucks and costs stamina. I play more than one class, I play all in every variation and im not getting trapped from anything; Dk battleroar/helping hands/Temp repentence are all juked. I like the rally cry but honestly I will be surprised if they con't to buff siphoning strikes. Right now I just want it to cost magicka and I will be perfect.

Strider_Roshin · May 2017

According to Wrobel they bring stealth to the PvE table. This must be why you rarely find them on leaderboards.

waitwhat · May 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Free stamina at the end wasnt a buff to what it originally was? Do you honestly expect Zos to make siphoning very powerful? If they do that then betty netch will have to get buffed etc(Sustain cannot be easy mode). Im not going to get into a huge discussion with this; yes siphoning still sucks and costs stamina. I play more than one class, I play all in every variation and im not getting trapped from anything; Dk battleroar/helping hands/Temp repentence are all juked. I like the rally cry but honestly I will be surprised if they con't to buff siphoning strikes. Right now I just want it to cost magicka and I will be perfect.

No it wasn't a buff for two reasons:

1) The relevant comparison point is live. It is a major nerf compared to the current situation on life. The skill does not have to be changed at all for the sake of balance.

2) There is no extra stamina at the end. They just took the stamina away from the amounts restored by each light attack and tacked it on the end when the effect expires, ever 20 seconds. So now, not only is it still restoring "significantly" less stamina per the devs, it also operates significantly less efficiently within a rotation.

I don't expect ithem to make it super powerful, but I don't expect callous and uncalled for nerfs like this, all the more so when those nerfs directly contradict their stated reason for making the netch free to cast.

Also, for the record, they would not need to buff the ketch. All they have to do is leave siphoning strikes and its morphs alone, and the night blade sustain will still be worlds behind that of the warden.

waitwhat · May 2017

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

NBs bring more burst because of the non class changes that happened. They are in a sense buffed because of less heavy armor users, along with master at arms buffing all of their damage. Along with how high befoul can scale now.

@Princess_Asgari

No.

There will still be plenty of heavy armor users as even nerfed consistution/black rose is preferable to near-nonexistent cost reduction in light and medium armor. Those that will wear light and medium armor in PvP are already doing so.

Also, your comment only applies to PvP, not PvE, where nightblades are far, far worse off. Go to craglorn and type "stamblade DPS lf vSO" in zone and the responses you get will say it all.

Master at Arms also buffs everyone else's damage, and the star also has a new direct counter in Ironclad, which reduces all direct damage, along with the existing stars to reduce damage from light and heavy attacks. No bow buff for us.

Defile is only proc'd on incap strike and lethal arrow for a stamblade. Helpful mechanics, but with the nerf to fasalla's guile, healing reduction builds have still taken a hit, to say nothing of the fact that the Changes to befoul also benefit the other classes equally. Every stam class has access to Power Bash and Lethal Arrow, and the other classes have their ways to inflict defile.

We are in no sense buffed.

I was obviously reffering to PVP, i could care less about PVE in this game.

NB got buffed the most by the CP changes because with cost reduction gone and some skill cost increases many users will be forced to drop heavy and move back to light or medium because they simply wont be able to sustain.

Stamblade having major fracture almost 100% uptime having a major defile usable roughly every 10 seconds that got buffed even more in cp is a big deal. Stamblade is the secret top dog in pvp next update with these changes to the cp system and them not getting any reductions in how their dmg works. Master at arms buffs them a lot (just like others), but the way stamblade works it buffs them the most.

Just because you don't personally care about PvE doesn't mean the balance implications are irrelevant to your comments. "I only mean in PvP" isn't a valid defense for your claim that nightblades are being buffed in an of itself.

To the substance of what you said:
1. No people won't be forced into light and medium armor because those passive will not provide significant sustain. Cost reduction is not as effective as resource return, and even the cost reduction passive of light and medium have been heavily nerfed. Accordingly, that uptime in Major Fracture, which doesn't stack and is easy for any stam class to get, isn't going to be suddenly more powerful. Heavy meta will still reign in cyrodiil.
2. Defile does not work to the nghtblade's advantage any more than it works for other classes, magplars included. It takes more than 10 seconds to get incap back up, all the more so since the cost was increased to 70 from 50 with Homestead. Moreover, the nightblade will have to stay alive this whole time, forcing the few remaining into heavy armor since they cannot roll dodge and cloak as efficiently. All this while stam classes have access to Lethal Arrow, Power Bash, and magplars have Dark Flare.
3. Nightblades ARE GETTING A REDUCTION IN HOW THEIR DAMAGE WORKS. Crit damage bonus from stealth is gone, so ganking, Ambush, and Surprise Attack will be less effective in PvP. Unlike defile, we rely on stealth damage disproportionately more than the other classes in Cyrodiil.
4. Master at Arms buffs all classes equally, and has a direct counter in ironclad. Don't you get it? Points in ironclad directly reduce the effectiveness of points invested by anyone in Master at Arms.

Stop. Stop and go read all the iterations of the patch notes. And stop disregarding the plight of nightblades in PvE just becuse it isn't personally relevant to you.

DuckNoodles · May 2017

Zero.

Glamdring · May 2017

Zos have *** up NBs for a long time now, all because scrubs getting ganked in pvp, L2P pls whoever at ZoS that got their ass handed to them. NBs is almost nonexistant in any pvp or pve groupcontent at end game all thanks to some devs at Zos dont have a *** clue.

Kalante · May 2017

my boy.... not everyone plays a stealth night blade. Those people will be fine.

Publius_Scipio · May 2017

NB can be good. But NBs are a very focused class, require timing and practice. The way ESO works right now there isn't much room for an "ok" NB build. The other classes provide much more wiggle room and options for sure. If you are a NB player that is experienced and has a meta or very close to meta build, you'll have fun playing NB. If you are an experienced player but don't have an optimized NB build.... Well then you will be frustrated 3 out of every 5 times.

What I am saying applies much more to PvP than PvE. But it's the truth.

Edit: On the last episode of ESO Live Rich Lambert did say that they have heard the community regarding NBs, and that ZOS will be taking a deeper look at the NB class as a whole. And of course changes to the game and the other classes come Morrowind could be also defacto good for NBs. We shall all see how the chips fall come June.

stealthyevil · May 2017

Unless you are a meta stamblade (2h + bow + 1 proc min) you bring nothing to the table that another class can't do equally as good or even better, with one exception being Mass Hysteria. There is literally no reason to even play a magic nb unless you truly love the class, bottom tier PvE dps, weaker gimped sorcerer playstyle in PvP...maybe you want to bomb or do gank shenanigans but that gets boring after a while imo.

Jowrik · May 2017

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

if light and heavy attacks is the meta... then give us back Haste...

duuuuuude! I almost forgot all about haste!!!

awesome! HASTE, HASTE, HASTE!!!!! Give us back HASTE! Obviously fix animation canceling along with this change

back out the other changes as we;; while at it.

I agree on this. I loved the idea of the Haste-skill ever since release but sadly because of bugs (with Bow i.e.) and the attack being pretty much useless back then they changed it to Grim Focus etc.

I'd love to see HASTE re-added, for instance with a 100% increase to attack speed (aka twice as fast animationcancelling) but with a static reduce (i.e. 20%) to all spell & ability damage? Just an idea, but it'd allow for some interesting builds (shield breaker for pvp? lol)

Apart from that, they REALLY need to fix Shadow cloak...still breaking you randomly out of stealth by all kinds of dots ...

FlyLionel · May 2017

Leeching Strikes (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Stamina per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Stamina when the effect ends.
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Magicka per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Magicka when the effect ends.
Siphoning Strikes: Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
What is relevant is what Zos' plans are for sustain, and I want it to stay the same like how it is on live atm but reality is that would be too strong somehow for them. I am on console but I will say that this is an improvement and leave it at that, yes they should continue to look back at it. And if there is a video on how this siphoning works compared to the first batch of patch notes i'll link ya. Long live NB..

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Free stamina at the end wasnt a buff to what it originally was? Do you honestly expect Zos to make siphoning very powerful? If they do that then betty netch will have to get buffed etc(Sustain cannot be easy mode). Im not going to get into a huge discussion with this; yes siphoning still sucks and costs stamina. I play more than one class, I play all in every variation and im not getting trapped from anything; Dk battleroar/helping hands/Temp repentence are all juked. I like the rally cry but honestly I will be surprised if they con't to buff siphoning strikes. Right now I just want it to cost magicka and I will be perfect.

No it wasn't a buff for two reasons:

1) The relevant comparison point is live. It is a major nerf compared to the current situation on life. The skill does not have to be changed at all for the sake of balance.

2) There is no extra stamina at the end. They just took the stamina away from the amounts restored by each light attack and tacked it on the end when the effect expires, ever 20 seconds. So now, not only is it still restoring "significantly" less stamina per the devs, it also operates significantly less efficiently within a rotation.

I don't expect ithem to make it super powerful, but I don't expect callous and uncalled for nerfs like this, all the more so when those nerfs directly contradict their stated reason for making the netch free to cast.

Also, for the record, they would not need to buff the ketch. All they have to do is leave siphoning strikes and its morphs alone, and the night blade sustain will still be worlds behind that of the warden.

HugeMuffin · May 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

Leeching Strikes (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Stamina per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Stamina when the effect ends.
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Magicka per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Magicka when the effect ends.
Siphoning Strikes: Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
What is relevant is what Zos' plans are for sustain, and I want it to stay the same like how it is on live atm but reality is that would be too strong somehow for them. I am on console but I will say that this is an improvement and leave it at that, yes they should continue to look back at it. And if there is a video on how this siphoning works compared to the first batch of patch notes i'll link ya. Long live NB..

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Free stamina at the end wasnt a buff to what it originally was? Do you honestly expect Zos to make siphoning very powerful? If they do that then betty netch will have to get buffed etc(Sustain cannot be easy mode). Im not going to get into a huge discussion with this; yes siphoning still sucks and costs stamina. I play more than one class, I play all in every variation and im not getting trapped from anything; Dk battleroar/helping hands/Temp repentence are all juked. I like the rally cry but honestly I will be surprised if they con't to buff siphoning strikes. Right now I just want it to cost magicka and I will be perfect.

No it wasn't a buff for two reasons:

1) The relevant comparison point is live. It is a major nerf compared to the current situation on life. The skill does not have to be changed at all for the sake of balance.

2) There is no extra stamina at the end. They just took the stamina away from the amounts restored by each light attack and tacked it on the end when the effect expires, ever 20 seconds. So now, not only is it still restoring "significantly" less stamina per the devs, it also operates significantly less efficiently within a rotation.

I don't expect ithem to make it super powerful, but I don't expect callous and uncalled for nerfs like this, all the more so when those nerfs directly contradict their stated reason for making the netch free to cast.

Also, for the record, they would not need to buff the ketch. All they have to do is leave siphoning strikes and its morphs alone, and the night blade sustain will still be worlds behind that of the warden.

I'm curious. Let's take a look at the math. I ran the calculations for the new 3.0.2 stamina morph, and found for the following 4 min-middle-middle-max conditions:

Note - I didn't write down the exact values for the 3.0.0 old stam morph so I might be some points off, but I think i got the neighborhood right. My characters carried over and I didn't make a note of the impact that passives and gear had on the cost, so I'm rounding to 2.4k

Doing nothing: Old version - 0 return, 2.2k cost. 3.0.2 version - 1300 net return, or 65 stamina per second

That's a buff over 3.0.0

Heavy attack Spam: 3.0.0 leeching netted 97.8 stamina per second while proccing from pure heavy attacks. 3.0.2 nets 172 stamina per second.

Also a Buff over 3.0.0

Spoiler Math 3.0.2

Heavy attacks return 1386 stamina, so if you magically hit all 11 HA's in that time (I counted, both with fists and with dual daggers), your net gain over HA spamming is (-1148 + (198*11)+2415) or 172 stamina gained per second or a regen gain of 344. Note that in that time, those HAs netted me 762 stamina per second, or stam regen of 1526. Combined, HA spamming + leeching attacks gave a regen value of 1868 or 934 stamina returned per second.

Spoiler Math 3.0.0

Heavy attacks haven't changed, so 1386 stamina. 11 HA's return (396*11)-2.4k casting cost = 1956 total or 97.8. Though again, heavy attacks do return 762 stamina per second

Light Attack Spam (not weave): We knew that eventually the number of hit returns would overpower the end-return, and it looks like we've passed it. 3.0.0 was 397.4 stamina per second. 3.0.2 was 320 stamina per second.

This is a nerf to the highest return scenario for this skill.

Spoiler Math 3.0.2

If you just light attack 26 times (Note: I actually didn't check to see if the proc is limited by the 1 second global cooldown or not while testing it, it might just be 20/20 procs) by spamming left mouse over 20 seconds, it returns (-1148 + (198*26) +2415) if you let it run the full 20 seconds. That averages out to 320 stamina returned per second, or a stam regen value of 640.

Spoiler math 3.0.0

Light attacks haven't changed, so a theoretical maximum is (26*398)-2400 = 7498 or 397.4 stamina per second.

Light attack perfect weave: 3.0.0 is 278 stamina per second. 3.0.2 is 261 stamina per second.

Also a nerf, though I think that if I got the cost wrong and the stam morph really cost 2.2k, this would be the break even part. Less procs over the duration are a buff, more procs from this point on are a nerf.

Spoiler Math 3.0.2

(-1148 + (198*20) +2415) if you let it run the full 20 seconds. That averages out to 261 stamina returned per second, or a stam regen value of 522.

Spoiler math 3.0.0

(20*398)-2400 = 5227 or 278 stam per second

So. In total, this is a buff over 3.0.0 if you play into the heavy attack meta and a nerf otherwise.

The skill is still trash and won't be invited to any parties any time soon.

FlyLionel · May 2017

tinbromide wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Leeching Strikes (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Stamina per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Stamina when the effect ends.
Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now restores less Magicka per Light or Heavy Attack, but now restores a significant amount of Magicka when the effect ends.
Siphoning Strikes: Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by approximately 50%.
What is relevant is what Zos' plans are for sustain, and I want it to stay the same like how it is on live atm but reality is that would be too strong somehow for them. I am on console but I will say that this is an improvement and leave it at that, yes they should continue to look back at it. And if there is a video on how this siphoning works compared to the first batch of patch notes i'll link ya. Long live NB..

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Someone has to be last.

^
Not surprised about how they went back and took a look at siphoning strikes with all the videos showing how useless it is and all the feedback etc. I will be surprised however if they continue to buff them throughout the PTS, this seems as though Zos has no real plans this patch for NB. At least there's a new class to play around with.

@FlyLionel.

As mentioned elsewhere, the latest change is not a buff. It is a nerf compared to live, which is already pretty bad for us.

We must not fall into the trap of accepting later patch note iterations as buffs. They are nerfs, and the latest change is most likely the worst yet of all the changes to Siphoning Strikes this patch. The mechanics of using the HoT require the nightblade to put themselves in harm's way to recieve the tiny heals, and for stamblades that rely on dodging for defense (i.e. the stamblades that attempt to not instantly die all the time) will be unable to use the skill at all, given the crappy return for the cost, and the fact that most of that crappy return only comes to the stamblade 20 seconds later, by which time they will probably be dead.

Please, please, never again call the latest change to Siphoning Attacks a buff, and that goes for anyone reading this. We cannot afford to fall into a "this isn't so bad" mentality or even a "it will get better mentality." They never would have come back even a tiny bit on the changes to templar shards without the massive backlash to the egregious Warden-shoehorning that change entailed. We can only expect the same situation here.

Free stamina at the end wasnt a buff to what it originally was? Do you honestly expect Zos to make siphoning very powerful? If they do that then betty netch will have to get buffed etc(Sustain cannot be easy mode). Im not going to get into a huge discussion with this; yes siphoning still sucks and costs stamina. I play more than one class, I play all in every variation and im not getting trapped from anything; Dk battleroar/helping hands/Temp repentence are all juked. I like the rally cry but honestly I will be surprised if they con't to buff siphoning strikes. Right now I just want it to cost magicka and I will be perfect.

No it wasn't a buff for two reasons:

1) The relevant comparison point is live. It is a major nerf compared to the current situation on life. The skill does not have to be changed at all for the sake of balance.

2) There is no extra stamina at the end. They just took the stamina away from the amounts restored by each light attack and tacked it on the end when the effect expires, ever 20 seconds. So now, not only is it still restoring "significantly" less stamina per the devs, it also operates significantly less efficiently within a rotation.

I don't expect ithem to make it super powerful, but I don't expect callous and uncalled for nerfs like this, all the more so when those nerfs directly contradict their stated reason for making the netch free to cast.

Also, for the record, they would not need to buff the ketch. All they have to do is leave siphoning strikes and its morphs alone, and the night blade sustain will still be worlds behind that of the warden.

I'm curious. Let's take a look at the math. I ran the calculations for the new 3.0.2 stamina morph, and found for the following 4 min-middle-middle-max conditions:

Note - I didn't write down the exact values for the 3.0.0 old stam morph so I might be some points off, but I think i got the neighborhood right. My characters carried over and I didn't make a note of the impact that passives and gear had on the cost, so I'm rounding to 2.4k

Doing nothing: Old version - 0 return, 2.2k cost. 3.0.2 version - 1300 net return, or 65 stamina per second

That's a buff over 3.0.0

Heavy attack Spam: 3.0.0 leeching netted 97.8 stamina per second while proccing from pure heavy attacks. 3.0.2 nets 172 stamina per second.

Also a Buff over 3.0.0

Spoiler Math 3.0.2
Heavy attacks return 1386 stamina, so if you magically hit all 11 HA's in that time (I counted, both with fists and with dual daggers), your net gain over HA spamming is (-1148 + (198*11)+2415) or 172 stamina gained per second or a regen gain of 344. Note that in that time, those HAs netted me 762 stamina per second, or stam regen of 1526. Combined, HA spamming + leeching attacks gave a regen value of 1868 or 934 stamina returned per second.

Spoiler Math 3.0.0
Heavy attacks haven't changed, so 1386 stamina. 11 HA's return (396*11)-2.4k casting cost = 1956 total or 97.8. Though again, heavy attacks do return 762 stamina per second

Light Attack Spam (not weave): We knew that eventually the number of hit returns would overpower the end-return, and it looks like we've passed it. 3.0.0 was 397.4 stamina per second. 3.0.2 was 320 stamina per second.

This is a nerf to the highest return scenario for this skill.

Spoiler Math 3.0.2
If you just light attack 26 times (Note: I actually didn't check to see if the proc is limited by the 1 second global cooldown or not while testing it, it might just be 20/20 procs) by spamming left mouse over 20 seconds, it returns (-1148 + (198*26) +2415) if you let it run the full 20 seconds. That averages out to 320 stamina returned per second, or a stam regen value of 640.

Spoiler math 3.0.0
Light attacks haven't changed, so a theoretical maximum is (26*398)-2400 = 7498 or 397.4 stamina per second.

Light attack perfect weave: 3.0.0 is 278 stamina per second. 3.0.2 is 261 stamina per second.

Also a nerf

Spoiler Math 3.0.2
(-1148 + (198*20) +2415) if you let it run the full 20 seconds. That averages out to 261 stamina returned per second, or a stam regen value of 522.

Spoiler math 3.0.0
(20*398)-2400 = 5227 or 278 stam per second

So. In total, this is a buff over 3.0.0 if you play into the heavy attack meta and a nerf otherwise.

The skill is still trash and won't be invited to any parties any time soon.

^ Ty.

HugeMuffin · May 2017

I mean, the changes to the skill are still hot garbage, but it's pretty clear that the devs wanted to cap the maximum amount of resource return available to night blades in 20 seconds to be under what a sorcerer could get back in 3 seconds. I think that's a fairly useful ceiling to go by, but there is some head room, I believe that sorcerers can get back 8,634 stamina back in 3 seconds with dark deal so hopefully we'll see leeching tuned up to that from it's current 6,400 over 20 seconds.

jaredreall · May 2017

@ZOS - why do you hate Nightblades?

Honestly, I just can't fathom the choices you are making towards the class. Magicka or Stamina - it doesn't matter. Nightblades are sad and pathetic now.

Thanks.

Fix us! Stop destroying the class. We are useless now (not that we were much before)

ljb2k5_ESO · May 2017

tinbromide wrote: »

So. In total, this is a buff over 3.0.0 if you play into the heavy attack meta and a nerf otherwise.

The skill is still trash and won't be invited to any parties any time soon.

Sounds alot like a meme that was going around here recently....

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

This thread is devolving...

olsborg · May 2017

AP!

gediv2 · May 2017

Get a clue ZOS