Nightblade Tanks

aeowulf · April 2017

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

I agree with everything Actosh said except the 10% proc being just a complimentary effect.

Sap tanks don't ave an AE CC like Talons or a native pull mechanic to cluster mobs and keep them clustered. The combination of 10% SS proc on all attacks makes spamming Sap an effective AE agro option on large packs. On a 5-pack, that's a 50% chance to return 2/3 the cost of Sap. Loosing the proc destroys this.

Honestly I don't see how the light/heavy attack requirement is even remotely balanced with a cast and forget (Templar) or cast once for large immediate return (DK, Sorc) skill. This needs to be factored into the efficiency balance.

For proper balance with other classes, the skill needs one of the following adjustments:
1) Nets a total resource restore nearly double that of comparable skills from other classes that aren't limited to light/heavy atk.
2) Provides a significant benefit to the rest of the group (group buff or AE mob debuff).
3) Procs 100% resource off ALL atks. or increased effect proportional to reduced proc chance.

The cost for the skill simply can't be more than double the return if attacking is required. Anything more makes the break even questionable in typical combat conditions.

A small cost is required to avoid spamming it for the passive activation it provides.

i'd agree with 1 or 3, option 2 does not help those folks that want to solo and means NB's will become buff machines. that's not really fitting the image of a nightblade, more a sorc.

aeowulf · April 2017

honestly if DK's are the meta tank, templars are the meta healers, and sorcs are the meta dps, i'm struggling to see what meta NB's are meant to have? What is the role ZoS have in mind for them? They used to have sustain but that's not ever been required at high levels (hence the reason for all these changes) so maybe they should actually have sustain now it's become more valuable as they don't get any other meta?

Sakiri · April 2017

actosh wrote: »

I will never use a staff and thre is still no need to do so. I can understand why they killed the 10% chance to restore ressources.
But sa needs a buff to be in line with other ressource restore mechanics since it forces us to drop block.

Pretty sure the intent is partially to prevent people from permablocking.

helediron · April 2017

So, another half year to keep my saptank as gearmule. Thank you very much ZOS.

Autolycus · April 2017

I'm still in the process of testing so I'm going to limit what I say here until I can be 100% certain I don't give misleading or false information. What I've seen so far is the same as everyone else it seems, but I'm not nearly as pessimistic about it.

Minimum block cost is 48 per 1/4 second, or 192 per second. The "new" Leeching Strikes gives us back about twice that still with a single light attack. That means that in theory, we would only need to light attack once every couple seconds if our only stam consumption is blocking. In practice we have several stam abilities we use that need to be offset and our recovery can kick in periodically when our block is down; the main stamina drain for most tanks is Shuffle, and we have a magicka alternative to that already. The main other stam abilities are Pierce and Heroic, both of which are relatively cheap, and Absorb Magic, which is extremely situational and not very expensive either. All of these will presumably cost more in the next update without the Warlord CP star.

The 10% proc chance on SA historically has always been supplementary, but never necessary. As it stands on live I can main tank everything in this game without ever dropping below about 70% of my max stam, as a magicka tank with at most 20k stam. I can easily permablock without light attacking because of Undaunted passives, and the only reason I actually still do so every 4s is keep ulti regen up and to maximize crusher proc chance. I have historically built for very low magicka regen specifically because SA is so potent, with approximately 1k magicka and stam back on every light attack, I could permanently sustain myself in any situation without outside help. But we always have outside help; between Master's Resto staff Springs, Shards, and the plethora of synergies we constantly activate, the current SA on live is way beyond necessary, so I understand where these nerfs originate from. That's not to say I'm super pleased about it, but I get it.

People frequently forget just how valuable using synergies is, particularly through Undaunted passives, which I'm fairly sure haven't been changed with this update yet (referring to the passives; Necrotic Orb changed, yes). With a 20k stam pool and 4% of my max stam restored just using any synergy, it restores about 800 stam, roughly twice as much as the new Leeching Strikes does in a single light attack. Furthermore, I can light attack and synergize in the same global cooldown, which amounts to about 1200 stam in a single second. It's possible that this passive will be adjusted to restore based on character level too, but the point remains the same. They could half this and it would still be as potent as the new LS for no cost and no restrictions on which synergy I use. Plus, it's entirely possible that we see more sustain support coming from the group outside of just the healers too.

My plan is fairly simple so far, but again there's plenty of testing still to do and I may discover there's more to it than I've already accounted for. Without the ability to invest in Magician and Warlord, there's an obvious need for additional recovery or reduced cost somewhere. The easiest way to go about this is via jewelry glyphs, which for most people are all shieldplay. Well, without Magician and Warlord, there are plenty of CP available to allocate to Shadow Ward, and personally I've never put more than 40-60 points in here. I've also never used a Mundus that benefits my sustain, I've always had the Thief to tank since it boosts the healing to my group. Now I will use the Atronach, add one more reduced magicka or magicka recovery glyph, and reallocate a portion of my CP to Shadow Ward to make up some of the difference. Refreshing buffs/debuffs early is going to have a larger impact on our sustain now as well.

The impact of these changes will be most obvious in group pulls, but if you're a NB tank and relying on SA + Sap Essence to sustain you in AoE pulls, it's time to learn how to do it properly. That method is inefficient and unnecessary; you should be weaving your light attacks on trash pulls too. There aren't any bosses currently on live that, by themselves, will drain you of stamina with these changes; I could never let my block down and still sustain my stam just by using an occasional synergy on a trials boss. I think stacking more magicka regen will enable you to focus solely on maintaining your stam pool, and with proper block cost reduction and attack weaving you'll be fine.

One thing I haven't mentioned yet, however, is the change to Heavy Armor Constitution. I'm rather concerned about this. I get why it was changed for pvp, but for pve this might have more detrimental impacts on our ability to sustain as a tank. It may be that it's a huge loss and there's a problem, or it may be that when mixed in with the various other changes (like Orbs) it balances out. This change is a perfect example of the well-known trend in ESO, where passives that create imbalance in pvp are reeled back substantially, and it creates potentially major voids for pve players to fill. Coming from a situation where Black Rose is beyond overkill in pve to a point where even the base passive might be severely lacking, this change is pretty disconcerting.

Again, I don't think it's the end of the world, and we'll find a way around it, so let's not flip out just yet. Who knows, maybe with more testing I'll realize it's worse than I'm portaying it here. But guys, this game changes a lot; it's kind of ZOS's MO to make us re-learn the game every several months because they can't seem to grasp the concept of incremental and ongoing rebalancing. We always figure it out, so just relax; they're not killing our class. They telling us we're too good at it and need more constraints. Whether or not we agree, we will overcome it anyway, just like we always do.

P.S. The Sentinel of Rkugamz is looking even more awesome now. It's a pretty reliable proc and the stam return on it is phenomenal. Been using it for awhile and it was already great.

Rex-Umbra · April 2017

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

NIGHTBLADE TANK. It is not even viable anymore, the changes to siphoning strikes leave the magicka based nightblade sap tank with no way to gain stamina.

PVE on live i use funnel health regularly single target or sap in AOE trash to proc the small chance for stamina gain, i then suppliment this with dropping block when safe to light attack, this allows me to bring utility heal over time to my group, keep my own buffs up and sustain my stamina.

From a TANK perspective, the change now means my ONLY choice is to invest more into stamina & repeatedly drop block to either spam siphoning strikes light attacks (increasing the chances to get stunned/CC) or just charge up heavy attacks (not easy in a big trash pull when the nightblade had no holding CC i.e.tallons. also i now have to choose stamina or magicka return. when i need magicka to constantly heal (because nightblade had no class burst heal) and i need stamina to block because ice staff tanking does not offer the resistances or block efficiency of 1h and shield.

if SAP tank does not work then i am left with stamina tank, that means i give NO group utility, (already forced to run swarm mothers helm for a chains/CC) and MUST run PVP to unlock VIGOR as a half decent heal.

NB needs sap to function as it currently does on the live server as NB on the PTS is now the worst TANK class. sorc can shield stack or dark deal stamina back. DK has its ignious shields and ultimates way of gaining stamina. Templar can have other people synergise spears & repentance corpses for stamina and the Warden can have the BULL NETCH poot stamina directly into your pool.

Give NB its old siphoning attacks back or at least 1 morph that works as it does on live. or a new better way for a tank to gain stamina. the new pts morphs are great for DPS but not for TANKS.

there is not an armor set i can change to make it work because the whole skill does not exsist any more.

My main is a Sap Tank, love the hell out of him but he has not been competitive since DB. After DB Stamina tanks just dominated and after this patch I'm on the fence I want to bring it back but really worried with the constitution, block and siphoning nerfs... Like why should I bother playing anything other then warden or sorc dps?

Jamini · April 2017

There are more builds out there for NB tanking than the stock-standard sapTank.

Try this sometime:

Race: Bosmer (20% stam recovery) , Khajiit (10% stam recovery), Redguard (Still have great stam recovery)
Monster Type: Vampire or Werewolf (Both function. Vampire has lower values, but does not require an ult slotted for the stamina recovery boost)

Target Health: 30k
Secondary Stat: Magicka
Dump Stat: Stamina

Set#1: Tava's or Ebon Armory
Set#2 (Weapons and Jewlery): Lich or Warlock (Alkosh is viable for trials if you have a steady source of magickasteal)
Set#3: Swarm Mother, Sentinal, Troll King, Lord Warden's (Swap depending on fight)

Jewlery Enchantments: Stamina Recovery
Mundus: Serpent (Stamina Recovery)

Bar#1 (Shield) - Pierce Armor, Flex Spot (Prefer a shadow skill), Heroic Slash, Sap Essance, Siphoning Attacks (Swap for the magicka recovery buff post-patch) - Warhorn
Bar#2 (Frost Staff) - Wall of Frost, Inner Beast (ranged taunt, stamina varient), Swallow Soul, Refreshing Path, Mirage - Packmaster/Bolstering Darkness/Devouring Swarm

Tested through all of the current normal trials. Been gearing and practicing on this for vetHRC next. Successfully solo tanked the twins (don't ask please. That was painful). Performed as both main and offtank in nMoL.

Tactics: Abuse free major/minor ward and resolve to have near 100% uptime. Tava's + Mirage + NB Passives results in very high horn or bolstering darkness uptime. Magickasteal functions through block, and is superior to sustaining from shards on current patch assuming your group has it. Abuse high Regen to recover one resource bar while blocking and casting with the other (current Khajiit has 1.8k stamina regen consistently, and gets 1.9k magicka when swapping to his shield bar). Lich/warlock only needs 5pc on the shield bar, as you are only swapping to that when your mag runs low. Swarm mother is useful for trash fights, sentinel/lord warden is best for boss fights. When running ebon+alkosh, troll king is king alongside a 1PC sword.

Note: DO NOT USE THE FROST HEAVY UNLESS YOU ARE OPENING WITH IT OR REALLY NEED TO REGEN MAGICKA. EVEN THEN IT IS BETTER TO USE INNER BEAST. IF YOU SAY FROST STAVES ARE BAD BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HEAVY ATTACK TO TANK WITH THEM THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T READ THIS GIANT ALLCAPS NOTE.

Note: The passive effect from Defensive Posture and its morphs function even if you do not have a shield wielded. You cannot use the active skill, but you DO gain the block reduction. This can be very useful for this build.

Note: You will still spend a lot of time on your shield bar for both taunts and magicka recovery. Pierce armor is still three times cheaper than Inner Beast to cast. Plan accordingly.

Pros: Amazing sustain. This build has no real need for shards at all, and really only needs marginal magicka support due to the long cooldown on lich and warlock procs. Bloodthorn is also very viable on this build instead of lich or warlock. Higher damage output than a meta DK. Fantastic range compared to other tanks. (Doing HMICP and HMWGT is very easy in this build. You barely need to move to tank shadows/kill portals).
Cons: Somewhat less durability than a full DK tank. Magicka sustain can be tricky in very tough situations. Lack of a panic button (magma shell or helping hands ult heal). Lacks a pull (I wish silver leash could have its pull back). Bolstering Darkness is underwhealming (useful, but underwhealming), and Pack Leader is sacrificing a slot for 15% bonus Regen. Soul Teather and Soul Shred are situational.

esoub17_ESO30 · April 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

The impact of these changes will be most obvious in group pulls, but if you're a NB tank and relying on SA + Sap Essence to sustain you in AoE pulls, it's time to learn how to do it properly. That method is inefficient and unnecessary; you should be weaving your light attacks on trash pulls too.

I think you're missing something in the math at work here, or the overall CC/Agro implications as compared to DK.

Sap Essence costs 3240 base to cast, or 2592 with 20% cost redux.
Siphoning restores 2048, 50% of the time on a 5 pack, call it an average of 1024 per cast.
Light atk on live restores 1024.

On live, you need 544 mag rec to break even WHILE light attacking, or 1568 without light attacks.

Problem is that light attacking between saps, on a tank build, doesn't generate enough agro to keep mobs off decent DPS. We don't have talons to lock mobs down, nor chains to reel in the rangers, so the alternative is to run around and stab, which works... but is super annoying and far more effort than the DK method.

It's also useful group healing in a pinch.

The combination of lost cost redux and lost SA proc on AE destroys the skills utility specifically because it can't be spammed, and it doesn't do enough of either healing or damage to be effective without spamming.

Meanwhile, every other class can spam their AEs because their recovery is not limited by the need to light/heavy attack.

crobarXIII · April 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Templar
Aedric Spear
Spear Shards: The synergy from this ability and its morphs now restores Magicka or Stamina based on whichever has the highest maximum, instead of whichever has the largest missing percentage.
Known Issue: Luminous Shard’s resource return for the casting Templar is still restoring resources based on the largest missing percent. This will be fixed in future PTS patch.

Developer Comments:
Based on initial PTS feedback, we’ve changed the Magicka or Stamina this synergy gives you (as well as the Necrotic Orb synergy) to always restore the resource you have the highest maximum of so that it’s more consistent and reliable for your build type.

[/list]

Guess that's it for magicka nb tanks

Autolycus · April 2017

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

The impact of these changes will be most obvious in group pulls, but if you're a NB tank and relying on SA + Sap Essence to sustain you in AoE pulls, it's time to learn how to do it properly. That method is inefficient and unnecessary; you should be weaving your light attacks on trash pulls too.

I think you're missing something in the math at work here, or the overall CC/Agro implications as compared to DK.
Sap Essence costs 3240 base to cast, or 2592 with 20% cost redux.

Siphoning restores 2048, 50% of the time on a 5 pack, call it an average of 1024 per cast.

Light atk on live restores 1024.

On live, you need 544 mag rec to break even WHILE light attacking, or 1568 without light attacks.

Problem is that light attacking between saps, on a tank build, doesn't generate enough agro to keep mobs off decent DPS. We don't have talons to lock mobs down, nor chains to reel in the rangers, so the alternative is to run around and stab, which works... but is super annoying and far more effort than the DK method.

It's also useful group healing in a pinch.

The combination of lost cost redux and lost SA proc on AE destroys the skills utility specifically because it can't be spammed, and it doesn't do enough of either healing or damage to be effective without spamming.

Meanwhile, every other class can spam their AEs because their recovery is not limited by the need to light/heavy attack.

I haven't missed anything, and I already know the costs and returns of these skills (I would hope so after 3 years). It is quite common for NB tanks to over-use Sap. Don't take me the wrong way (I intend a constructive tone here), but why are you intentionally imposing a 2600 cost upon yourself for a 50% chance at getting 2k back? You can just light attack one of the X mobs you have surrounding you and recover 1024 without spending anything. This restores over 10X as much as it costs to block if built properly and can be combined with a skill in the same GCD. This practice is precisely why I said the impact will be most noticeable on group pulls, because of this common over-reliance on Sap and how it will be unable to supplement sustain in Morrowind. Obviously this is far more apparent in dungeons than trials.

Sap itself is highly inefficient (in a tank rotation), but exceedingly effective in certain context. It should only be used when there is merit to doing so other than fishing for that 10% proc chance, like when you need to heal in an AoE pull, when trying to proc something like Sentinel, or at the very start of an AoE pull to grab initial aggro. I understand the merit of using it when there are many adds, we aren't debating that aspect of its current utility. Nowhere have I ever seen someone claim that Sap is good for generating mid-fight aggro, though. I get that you brought it up as a comparison to Talons, but it's not comparable to Talons. If your timing is accurate and you are standing at the appropriate places during the pull (like next to the bulk of ranged adds), then you won't need Talons. Sap will get their attention long enough for you to taunt, and everything will be stacked anyway. For everything else, there's Swarm Mother, which we don't use in trials, nor do we need to. In most pulls for dungeons and trials, my NB tank is equally as effective as any other tank, but in some situations it's true that something like Chains or Talons is noticeably more efficient.

After the first Sap, your resource management is far and away better by weaving Pierce Armor and light attacks until everything is taunted. If you're managing your costs appropriately, it will barely cost you more to taunt than you get back with SA. Sap is not even our most productive form of group healing; even Energy Orb is a better heal for the majority of fights, except during dungeon trash, where Sap is of course appropriate (but not to be used exclusively still).

You say that it destroys the skill's utility specifically because its utility is to provide you resources. My point is that the Sap is not intended to be a resource utility. It is and always has been an AoE dps, AoE heal, and aggro generator utility. In some cases it is a proc utility, like with Sentinel. The core utility of Siphoning Attacks is and always has been the light attack returns, which historically have been far and above more potent than necessary. Yes, this is a shocking change for most NB tanks, because most NB tanks fail to realize just how unnecessary that 10% proc chance really is for overall sustain.

The basic light attack return mechanic of SA/LS is a different story. This has been driven straight into the ground and is not anywhere near enough to compensate for the combination of increased skill and block cost, and Constitution reduction, at least in my opinion so far (still testing ofc). It likely means foregoing taunting individual adds in a group pull. To your point, the strengths of other classes are a lot more apparent in this situation, for example a DK doesn't have to taunt everything if Talons keeps them away from dps.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

crobarXIII wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Templar
Aedric Spear
Spear Shards: The synergy from this ability and its morphs now restores Magicka or Stamina based on whichever has the highest maximum, instead of whichever has the largest missing percentage.
Known Issue: Luminous Shard’s resource return for the casting Templar is still restoring resources based on the largest missing percent. This will be fixed in future PTS patch.

Developer Comments:
Based on initial PTS feedback, we’ve changed the Magicka or Stamina this synergy gives you (as well as the Necrotic Orb synergy) to always restore the resource you have the highest maximum of so that it’s more consistent and reliable for your build type.

[/list]

Guess that's it for magicka nb tanks

Yea I really scratched my head at that...

esoub17_ESO30 · April 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

Don't take me the wrong way (I intend a constructive tone here), but why are you intentionally imposing a 2600 cost upon yourself for a 50% chance at getting 2k back? You can just light attack one of the X mobs you have surrounding you and recover 1024 without spending anything. This restores over 10X as much as it costs to block if built properly and can be combined with a skill in the same GCD.

Currently, SA + Sapping twice on a 5 pack is statistically the same resource return as SA + light attacking twice. The difference is that Sap hits everything in short range at once, building damage and heal agro.

Puncture x 5 costs more than double the resource of 1 Sap, takes longer, and requires you to melee each mob. While you're hitting the first 4 mobs, there's a good chance DPS or heals have pulled agro on the 5th mob, so now you're running it down or using Inner Fire to taunt it at range.

Still, my point is not that one method is better than the other... it's that other tanks have an AE agro/CC option that remains viable on test. Ours is basically lost if we're forced to LA for resources. Weather we could manage using single target skills is beside the point since other tanks can do that too.

Brrrofski · April 2017

I think I can just spec less into damage and I'll be ok.

Already using bloodthorn touch. Might not be the only one after next patch.

Autolycus · April 2017

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Don't take me the wrong way (I intend a constructive tone here), but why are you intentionally imposing a 2600 cost upon yourself for a 50% chance at getting 2k back? You can just light attack one of the X mobs you have surrounding you and recover 1024 without spending anything. This restores over 10X as much as it costs to block if built properly and can be combined with a skill in the same GCD.

Currently, SA + Sapping twice on a 5 pack is statistically the same resource return as SA + light attacking twice. The difference is that Sap hits everything in short range at once, building damage and heal agro.

Puncture x 5 costs more than double the resource of 1 Sap, takes longer, and requires you to melee each mob. While you're hitting the first 4 mobs, there's a good chance DPS or heals have pulled agro on the 5th mob, so now you're running it down or using Inner Fire to taunt it at range.

Still, my point is not that one method is better than the other... it's that other tanks have an AE agro/CC option that remains viable on test. Ours is basically lost if we're forced to LA for resources. Weather we could manage using single target skills is beside the point since other tanks can do that too.

You really believe Sap is completely useless without a resource proc chance? We have always done light attacks for resources. That comment makes no sense as light attacks are and always have been the core component of NB sustain. As I mentioned in my original post, the proc chance is supplementary and has historically always been overkill when we could sustain literally everything with just light attacks.

Puncture x5 with light attack cancels is more efficient than Sap spam. Puncture for me is approximately 1300 stam cost and a light attack cancel is 1024 restored; multiply both by 5 and take the difference for the net cost, which is just under 1400 stam. So after 6 whole seconds into the pull you are now down only 1400 stamina. It doesn't take any longer to do Pierce + light attack cancel than it does to Sap + light attack, as all are limited to the same global cooldown restrictions. But Puncture also forces aggro and applies Fracture/Breach and affords the same chance at the 10% resource return throughout the process, so if you get a single one of those Punctures to proc it becomes a net gain. The chance on a single Puncture for that proc is a lot lower yes, but it's also half the cost of Sap and provides a lot of utility. There are reasons to do an occasional Sap if you're looking for Sap utility, but that's not the primary objective of tanking. Buffs, debuffs, and aggro are the primary objectives, so to this end, Sap is not a primary tanking utility.

I've been tanking on the PTS in dungeons and trials and I assure you that Sap is still equally as effective as an AoE aggro generator, heal, and damage ability as it has always been. Those NB tanks who have learned to get along without spamming Sap for resources are going to be just fine, but those who don't use light attacking effectively on live are going to have a very difficult time in Morrowind; I've seen this first-hand already. Managing resources on boss fights is actually quite easy; it's the group pulls that hard to manage.

I get that you don't have to agree but I'm telling you how it is on PTS, not what I think is going to happen. I tied it back to how it is on live to demonstrate the gap that needs to be filled, and to help people understand that relying on procs via Sap is not even possible anymore. I'd hoped with this information that those of you relying on this proc chance would take my advice and use the time you have left on live to get used to sustaining without it. I've already made many changes to my build on PTS and begun stress-testing it. Survivability as a NB tank got better (though I don't think it was necessary) but resource management tanked, not because of the loss of that proc chance, but because light attack return values plummeted.

Will that 10% proc chance be missed? Of course it will, it's not like I don't see the value of it, or like I never use it at all. But that's not the primary function of the skill; it is supplementary and unnecessary for us. I would take the light attack component over the proc chance any day. Frankly, if they would just remove the up-front cost of SA and LS on the PTS versions this would be totally okay. If there's an up-front cost then the per-attack return benefit needs to be increased. The proc chance is just whatever, we can easily live without that.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

The problem, imo, lies more with siphoning now only giving one type of resource back. What made sap tanks work is being able to hold block and regain stamina by spamming sap or strife via siphoning attacks. The magicka sustain was never a problem.

Now we can't get back stamina from siphoning without throwing in a bunch of light or heavy attacks, which means dropping Block. In fact the only class that can still reliably permablock and sustain stamina entirely through class skills is the dk, because of helping hands. Everyone else is going to have to drop block for heavy attacks.

crobarXIII · April 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

I think I can just spec less into damage and I'll be ok.

Already using bloodthorn touch. Might not be the only one after next patch.

& there lies the problem. We shouldn't have to be using selfish sets to self sustain in PvE, you should be using sets that buff the group. Every other class has reliable ways to self sustain as a tank.

Warden
- betty morphs that restore stamina or magicka over 30 seconds & they are free to cast.
- Passive Nature's gift with restores 250 magicka or stamina whichever is your lowest pool when healing with a Green Balance ability. My question is, Does this proc off of HoT abilities?

Sorcerer
-Dark Deal was not touched in the patch notes but this ability can be used during your heavy attack windows to convert magicka into stamina.

Dragon Knight
-Helping hands passive retores stamina everytime you use an Earthen Heart ability. This was nerfed for both stamina dps & tanks.
-Battle Roar passive restores magicka, health & stamina when using an ultimate. This was nerfed for dps but buffed for tanks.

Templar
-Channeled Focus restores magicka every .5 seconds. This was left alone.
-Repentance restores stamina to the caster only per corpse it's used on. This was nerfed, It used to also restore stamina to allies.
-Luminous Shards now restores magicka or stamina whichever has the highest max pool to the caster when an ally actives the synergy, has a 20 second cooldown.

Nightblade
-Leeching Strikes cost appox. 2000 stamina & each light attack for 20 seconds restores appox. 400 stamina. So you need to land 5 light attacks just to get back the cost of the abilitiy. This was nerfed to oblivion.

So sorc were left alone, templar & dk tanks got a nerf & a buff at the same time & the class know for it's self sustain the nightblade got nerfed to the ground. My thoughts on how to fix this are either remove the cost of leeching strikes/siphoning attacks or make the ability cost the opposite resourse. I would also like a change to the Executioner passive that restores magicka when killing an enemy with an assassination ability. I think it should be changed to restore both magicka & stamina when a nearby enemy dies.

kylewwefan · April 2017

I'd ask you to try one off the wall thing. NB Sap Tank in light armor. 5 light, 2 heavy. I've done quite well with it in Vet dungeons (mostly DLC dungeons) and normal trials.

Not sure how well it would hold up in Vet Trials? Actually not had much luck with anything but DK in vet trials.

crobarXIII · April 2017

kylewwefan wrote: »

I'd ask you to try one off the wall thing. NB Sap Tank in light armor. 5 light, 2 heavy. I've done quite well with it in Vet dungeons (mostly DLC dungeons) and normal trials.

Not sure how well it would hold up in Vet Trials? Actually not had much luck with anything but DK in vet trials.

5 Light & 2 heavy? Are you using sets that buff the group or selfish sets that only help you? I don't know how well 5 light armor is going to work with the nerfs to siphoning attacks you won't be able to permablock & rely on the 10% proc chance to restore stamina. If multiple ads hit you at the same time while block is down you'll be really squishy in 5 light armor.

kylewwefan · April 2017

Totally selfish. Guilty as charged. Gilliam build, Baharas Curse/leeching/ monster. Got the curse light armor very easy and started running it. I've been super impressed and amazed how well you can tank in light armor.

If you're a nightblade tank, adding all this group utility stuff isn't really ever your thing the way I see it. You got No igneous stuff. No chains. No hard cc.

I run close to 3k magic recovery. front bar is Inner fire, Path, Siphoning, swallow soul, sap. Don't need much magic for your sap to heal plenty. You can spam it all day long.

Don't block tons of mobs. Maybe only 2H heavy attack you see coming miles away. Spam sap keep up path for shadow barrier. It's amazing.

Could use pierce armor....but it's costly to use.

Btw, NightBlade makes ultimate like crazy fast without doing anything special.

Backbar utility. Venom arrow, mirage, shades, blood alter or crushing shock, elemental drain etc.

F7sus4 · April 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Oh yeah, this is definitely a RIP Nightblade tank patch.

Silver_Strider · April 2017

actosh wrote: »

-snip-

I would like to add some things on to your suggestions.

Blur - Let this apply to members of your group as well as the NB themselves, either as a default function of the skill or as a synergy. Even if this only applied to 4 party members at a time, it would give NB tanks a niche utility in the form of providing Major Evasion, Major Expedition (with Double Take morph) or Minor Ward/Resolve (Mirage Morph) for the group and while you can imitate this with the Gossamer set and Combat Prayer, it would still be something of a unique perk for having a NB. (Gossamer is also fairly lackluster anyways)

Fear Rune - Should be altered into a "Charm" ability so as to draw enemies towards the NB. Not specificity a taunt but rather that ranged mobs would move towards the NB while still firing at their intended target, similar to how they behave with the totem that enemies occasionally cast. The way the fear rune currently is, is just depressing honestly. It has a niche roll in siege defense for PvP but there are just so many better abilities to use for that purpose, not to mention that the other morph is vastly superior in PvP for most situations that I'd rather have an ability with some actual use.

Siphoning Strikes - Revert the change. Barring this, lower the cost or double the return this skill currently gives. The heal does NOT justify losing our only real sustain move with the DREADFULLY bad skill it is becoming in which I need perfect mechanical knowledge of every single encounter, with perfect timing on my light and heavy attacks in order to just break even, let alone go + with it.

Path of Darkness - Give this ability a synergy that releases a miasma that ups the DoT damage. For Refreshing path, have it up the HoT component as well, while Twisting Path adds a snare and more damage

Mark Target - Have this ability restore resources on killing the target. With resources now being pressured more than ever, getting health back for a kill isn't enough anymore; we need staying power and changing this to offer resources back would be very helpful.

esoub17_ESO30 · April 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

You really believe Sap is completely useless without a resource proc chance?

No, That's not what I said at all.

What I said is that it becomes useless as an AE Agro/CC option that rivals DKs talons. Of course it still has other value. But without the proc chance, (on live) it effectively goes from a 1k cost to 2k, which drastically reduces it's spammability. Since it doesn't actually stun or root, the ability to spam it is essential to holding agro with it. In my experience with good DPS in the group, attempting to weave LA and Sap produces significantly less agro and does not effectively hold everything.

Autolycus wrote: »

Puncture x5 with light attack cancels is more efficient than Sap spam.

Maybe if all you're considering is net cost. Vs a 5 pack... assuming you can puncture/LA in the same time it takes to cast 1 Sap (flawless weaving, no time lost chasing down mobs).
Sap spam will deliver about 3x the damage output for only 2.5x the net cost, and you have agro on all 5 mobs immediately and throughout. Meanwhile it's also healing you and the group for around 1.7k each per cast. That's 34k of healing total for all 5 casts.

Autolycus wrote: »

I've been tanking on the PTS in dungeons and trials and I assure you that Sap is still equally as effective as an AoE aggro generator, heal, and damage ability as it has always been.

I have too, and I disagree. The lost cost redux combined with the lost proc effectively triples the cost. A typical tank build will get 4 or 5 cast before running out of Mag, at which point you're back to puncture. Yes it's workable, but it's nowhere near as viable as DK Talons x2, and not even remotely close to what I can do now on Live.

I get that your play style does not rely on the proc, and you consider it supplemental. I'll even agree, that for your play style it is supplemental. But individual play styles are beside the point.

From a class balance stand point, we currently have an AE agro/CC option that rivals DKs talons. On test we don't. I've tested it. It doesn't work. Yes there are alternatives, but DKs can do the exact same thing AND use Talons. This discrepancy needs to be addressed or KB tank will be even less viable than it is now.

BTW, I'm not saying restoring the proc is a viable fix for this. With the cost and restore redux on test, I doubt it.
Some possibilities...

Double the agro generated by Sap while Sword and Board or Frost staff equipped with destro taunt passive.
Add a 4 sec 70% snare/root/stun under the same conditions.

Autolycus · April 2017

@esoub17_ESO30

The reason it doesn't work when you test it is because there's not really a defined aggro table in ESO. There are not specific, varying degrees of threat in between "taunted" and "oh crap, he's hitting my healer/dps;" it's basically an on/off switch. Healing and dealing damage obviously get the attention of enemies, but in a lot of cases people doing absolutely nothing get their attention as well. I've been so adamant about making my point regarding the over-reliance of Sap because the name "Sap Tank" is not that literal. It doesn't matter how cost effective you could make Sap with or without proc chances, or with X number of enemies vs. Y, because Sap is not intended to be a traditional "aggro generator."

Our choices when tanking are very dynamic. Yes, there are certain buffs and debuffs we strive to maintain 100% of the time. Our priorities as a tank change on pull-to-pull basis, and for some situations it makes sense to use it back-to-back. Sap doesn't increase the amount of threat you generate just because you cast it though. The reason it works as an initial soft taunt is because you are the first one to hit that enemy, and this is how it works for everyone, which is why I said that Sap is equally effective on PTS now as it always has been on Live. It is far less efficient now because of increased costs and reduced regen, and the removal of SA procs, but still as effective for its intended purpose.

We are not an exceptional class; DK Talons serve as a soft taunt too if they're the first ones to land a blow. If I hit a target before my DK tank casts Talons, that target is going to be rooted (if not immune), but he's probably still focused on me (though I have seen enemies I've hit that weren't taunted randomly go to someone not yet engaged as well). You can't increase the aggro generated by Sap because it's not designed that way. They will probably not isolate a class skill to generate some arbitrary amount of aggro in a system that doesn't support it; they would have to actually implement clearly defined limits on aggro first for this to be realistic I think.

As useless as individually taunting enemies might seem, doing so is an integral part of tanking no matter which class you are. Every class manages the costs of doing so differently, and for NBs that has always been light attacks. If I'm tanking on my DK and using Talons, and do not taunt anything, I'm being kinda lazy. It's not a big deal most of the time (like in dungeons) because dps is often super high, and it all dies quickly - that's all part of determining our priorities, and sometimes it's not a priority to taunt everything. But crutching on the proc chance is not a great way to go about NB tanking; they expect us to sustain via light attacks and group support. If you can't sustain taunting everything, then get the priorities. It's not a matter of my playstyle preference so much as it's about the efficient way to go about managing a pull.

crobarXIII · April 2017

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Blur - Let this apply to members of your group as well as the NB themselves, either as a default function of the skill or as a synergy. Even if this only applied to 4 party members at a time, it would give NB tanks a niche utility in the form of providing Major Evasion, Major Expedition (with Double Take morph) or Minor Ward/Resolve (Mirage Morph) for the group and while you can imitate this with the Gossamer set and Combat Prayer, it would still be something of a unique perk for having a NB. (Gossamer is also fairly lackluster anyways)

Nightblade is the elusive class what if blur & morphs also passively give minor evasion to you & allies

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Path of Darkness - Give this ability a synergy that releases a miasma that ups the DoT damage. For Refreshing path, have it up the HoT component as well, while Twisting Path adds a snare and more damage

I agree with giving nb's more synergies & like your idea about the refreshing synergy increasing the HoT & twisting increasing the DoT. It would also be nice if it blinded enemies in it, after all it is a path of darkness.

esoub17_ESO30 · April 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

@esoub17_ESO30

The reason it doesn't work when you test it is because there's not really a defined aggro table in ESO.

Regardless of the particulars of how ESO manages agro under the hood, clearly some skills pull more agro than others.

In my experience, spamming Sap without light weaving pretty reliably holds agro off healers and DPS. This is true even on test, up until you run out of Magicka.

What doesn't work is mixing in other skills like LA. In this case you very quickly loose agro.

But once again, that's all kinda beside the point. The point is DK has useful AE crowd control above and beyond what a KB can do. KB needs a similar capability. Sap or perhaps Path are the obvious choices to tweak.

Autolycus · April 2017

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

@esoub17_ESO30

The reason it doesn't work when you test it is because there's not really a defined aggro table in ESO.

Regardless of the particulars of how ESO manages agro under the hood, clearly some skills pull more agro than others.

In my experience, spamming Sap without light weaving pretty reliably holds agro off healers and DPS. This is true even on test, up until you run out of Magicka.

What doesn't work is mixing in other skills like LA. In this case you very quickly loose agro.

But once again, that's all kinda beside the point. The point is DK has useful AE crowd control above and beyond what a KB can do. KB needs a similar capability. Sap or perhaps Path are the obvious choices to tweak.

So much ignorance; you obviously don't understand tanking as well as you think if you even believe that spamming Talons would keep enemies from hitting your party; it doesn't work as a traditional aggro generator any more than any other ability does. Glad I wasted all that time explaining to you how it works for you to ignore it and basically say, "nah bruh sap is l33t aggro gonna keep doing it but waaaaah cuz DKs." I will agree with you that abilities have to generate some degree of aggro, but nothing I've ever seen or done suggests that any skill other than taunts affects aggro any more or less than another skill.

I have gone out of my way to test this concept and everything I've done eludes to the idea that there is a random component to aggro. Even a high dps player is not necessarily going to pull aggro on an enemy just because his/her dps is high; it very often turns to a random person. I have even held aggro on an enemy after letting a taunt expire and doing absolutely no abilities at all, and it still stayed on me. I've tested high vs. low dps, from long vs. short ranges, high vs. low healing, and I've even tested attacking vs. just standing within range of mechanics. I mean, if you want to do nothing but sap non stop on every pull, go for it. Just don't come into my group with that; most groups want someone who actually understands a tank rotation, who will actually taunt things, and who knows how to manage their resources properly. And if you think your class is dead then go play DK; that's what everyone else does.

Lynx7386 · April 2017

kylewwefan wrote: »

Totally selfish. Guilty as charged. Gilliam build, Baharas Curse/leeching/ monster. Got the curse light armor very easy and started running it. I've been super impressed and amazed how well you can tank in light armor.

If you're a nightblade tank, adding all this group utility stuff isn't really ever your thing the way I see it. You got No igneous stuff. No chains. No hard cc.

I run close to 3k magic recovery. front bar is Inner fire, Path, Siphoning, swallow soul, sap. Don't need much magic for your sap to heal plenty. You can spam it all day long.

Don't block tons of mobs. Maybe only 2H heavy attack you see coming miles away. Spam sap keep up path for shadow barrier. It's amazing.

Could use pierce armor....but it's costly to use.

Btw, NightBlade makes ultimate like crazy fast without doing anything special.

Backbar utility. Venom arrow, mirage, shades, blood alter or crushing shock, elemental drain etc.

Why run 5 light with that setup? My sap tank runs bahraha's curse jewelry, belt, and shield (front bar) or sword (back bar). Leeching plate for the armor, since it's heavy, and sword (front bar) or shield (back bar). I run a grothdar for my monster set for extra aoe damage/threat, using one piece medium with the light bahraha's belt to get 6% out of the undaunted passive.

esoub17_ESO30 · April 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

So much ignorance; you obviously don't understand tanking as well as you think...

Now you're just being insulting and intentionally obtuse.

I never said Sap Spamming would 100% lock everything to you like a taunt. What I said is that it's "pretty reliable". Reliable enough for the typical group pull, which dies pretty fast if the tank isn't dragging mobs around while chasing runners to puncture.

And I have never once said anything about Talons agro. It roots. It doesn't need to be high agro.

Since you brought it up, I've been tanking MMOs since EQ1. That's nearly 20 years experience, and I've mained a KB since ESO beta. My vet Deathless Speed run achievements would strongly suggest I'm doing something right.

CurvedSwords123 · May 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Don't take me the wrong way (I intend a constructive tone here), but why are you intentionally imposing a 2600 cost upon yourself for a 50% chance at getting 2k back? You can just light attack one of the X mobs you have surrounding you and recover 1024 without spending anything. This restores over 10X as much as it costs to block if built properly and can be combined with a skill in the same GCD.

Currently, SA + Sapping twice on a 5 pack is statistically the same resource return as SA + light attacking twice. The difference is that Sap hits everything in short range at once, building damage and heal agro.

Puncture x 5 costs more than double the resource of 1 Sap, takes longer, and requires you to melee each mob. While you're hitting the first 4 mobs, there's a good chance DPS or heals have pulled agro on the 5th mob, so now you're running it down or using Inner Fire to taunt it at range.

Still, my point is not that one method is better than the other... it's that other tanks have an AE agro/CC option that remains viable on test. Ours is basically lost if we're forced to LA for resources. Weather we could manage using single target skills is beside the point since other tanks can do that too.

You really believe Sap is completely useless without a resource proc chance? We have always done light attacks for resources. That comment makes no sense as light attacks are and always have been the core component of NB sustain. As I mentioned in my original post, the proc chance is supplementary and has historically always been overkill when we could sustain literally everything with just light attacks.

Puncture x5 with light attack cancels is more efficient than Sap spam. Puncture for me is approximately 1300 stam cost and a light attack cancel is 1024 restored; multiply both by 5 and take the difference for the net cost, which is just under 1400 stam. So after 6 whole seconds into the pull you are now down only 1400 stamina. It doesn't take any longer to do Pierce + light attack cancel than it does to Sap + light attack, as all are limited to the same global cooldown restrictions. But Puncture also forces aggro and applies Fracture/Breach and affords the same chance at the 10% resource return throughout the process, so if you get a single one of those Punctures to proc it becomes a net gain. The chance on a single Puncture for that proc is a lot lower yes, but it's also half the cost of Sap and provides a lot of utility. There are reasons to do an occasional Sap if you're looking for Sap utility, but that's not the primary objective of tanking. Buffs, debuffs, and aggro are the primary objectives, so to this end, Sap is not a primary tanking utility.

I've been tanking on the PTS in dungeons and trials and I assure you that Sap is still equally as effective as an AoE aggro generator, heal, and damage ability as it has always been. Those NB tanks who have learned to get along without spamming Sap for resources are going to be just fine, but those who don't use light attacking effectively on live are going to have a very difficult time in Morrowind; I've seen this first-hand already. Managing resources on boss fights is actually quite easy; it's the group pulls that hard to manage.

I get that you don't have to agree but I'm telling you how it is on PTS, not what I think is going to happen. I tied it back to how it is on live to demonstrate the gap that needs to be filled, and to help people understand that relying on procs via Sap is not even possible anymore. I'd hoped with this information that those of you relying on this proc chance would take my advice and use the time you have left on live to get used to sustaining without it. I've already made many changes to my build on PTS and begun stress-testing it. Survivability as a NB tank got better (though I don't think it was necessary) but resource management tanked, not because of the loss of that proc chance, but because light attack return values plummeted.

Will that 10% proc chance be missed? Of course it will, it's not like I don't see the value of it, or like I never use it at all. But that's not the primary function of the skill; it is supplementary and unnecessary for us. I would take the light attack component over the proc chance any day. Frankly, if they would just remove the up-front cost of SA and LS on the PTS versions this would be totally okay. If there's an up-front cost then the per-attack return benefit needs to be increased. The proc chance is just whatever, we can easily live without that.

If you're doing so well as an NB tank after Morrowind, how about u disclose ur build?

Autolycus · May 2017

CurvedSwords123 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

esoub17_ESO30 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Don't take me the wrong way (I intend a constructive tone here), but why are you intentionally imposing a 2600 cost upon yourself for a 50% chance at getting 2k back? You can just light attack one of the X mobs you have surrounding you and recover 1024 without spending anything. This restores over 10X as much as it costs to block if built properly and can be combined with a skill in the same GCD.

Currently, SA + Sapping twice on a 5 pack is statistically the same resource return as SA + light attacking twice. The difference is that Sap hits everything in short range at once, building damage and heal agro.

Puncture x 5 costs more than double the resource of 1 Sap, takes longer, and requires you to melee each mob. While you're hitting the first 4 mobs, there's a good chance DPS or heals have pulled agro on the 5th mob, so now you're running it down or using Inner Fire to taunt it at range.

Still, my point is not that one method is better than the other... it's that other tanks have an AE agro/CC option that remains viable on test. Ours is basically lost if we're forced to LA for resources. Weather we could manage using single target skills is beside the point since other tanks can do that too.

You really believe Sap is completely useless without a resource proc chance? We have always done light attacks for resources. That comment makes no sense as light attacks are and always have been the core component of NB sustain. As I mentioned in my original post, the proc chance is supplementary and has historically always been overkill when we could sustain literally everything with just light attacks.

Puncture x5 with light attack cancels is more efficient than Sap spam. Puncture for me is approximately 1300 stam cost and a light attack cancel is 1024 restored; multiply both by 5 and take the difference for the net cost, which is just under 1400 stam. So after 6 whole seconds into the pull you are now down only 1400 stamina. It doesn't take any longer to do Pierce + light attack cancel than it does to Sap + light attack, as all are limited to the same global cooldown restrictions. But Puncture also forces aggro and applies Fracture/Breach and affords the same chance at the 10% resource return throughout the process, so if you get a single one of those Punctures to proc it becomes a net gain. The chance on a single Puncture for that proc is a lot lower yes, but it's also half the cost of Sap and provides a lot of utility. There are reasons to do an occasional Sap if you're looking for Sap utility, but that's not the primary objective of tanking. Buffs, debuffs, and aggro are the primary objectives, so to this end, Sap is not a primary tanking utility.

I've been tanking on the PTS in dungeons and trials and I assure you that Sap is still equally as effective as an AoE aggro generator, heal, and damage ability as it has always been. Those NB tanks who have learned to get along without spamming Sap for resources are going to be just fine, but those who don't use light attacking effectively on live are going to have a very difficult time in Morrowind; I've seen this first-hand already. Managing resources on boss fights is actually quite easy; it's the group pulls that hard to manage.

I get that you don't have to agree but I'm telling you how it is on PTS, not what I think is going to happen. I tied it back to how it is on live to demonstrate the gap that needs to be filled, and to help people understand that relying on procs via Sap is not even possible anymore. I'd hoped with this information that those of you relying on this proc chance would take my advice and use the time you have left on live to get used to sustaining without it. I've already made many changes to my build on PTS and begun stress-testing it. Survivability as a NB tank got better (though I don't think it was necessary) but resource management tanked, not because of the loss of that proc chance, but because light attack return values plummeted.

Will that 10% proc chance be missed? Of course it will, it's not like I don't see the value of it, or like I never use it at all. But that's not the primary function of the skill; it is supplementary and unnecessary for us. I would take the light attack component over the proc chance any day. Frankly, if they would just remove the up-front cost of SA and LS on the PTS versions this would be totally okay. If there's an up-front cost then the per-attack return benefit needs to be increased. The proc chance is just whatever, we can easily live without that.

If you're doing so well as an NB tank after Morrowind, how about u disclose ur build?

I've already disclosed my build and maintain it regularly as updates release. You'll have to wait patiently for the "official" update to the guide with all the exact details, as I don't usually update my guide until I've had plenty of time on live to ensure my setup is actually complete. You should already be aware that NBs had changes the day Early Access went live, and this post pre-dates that patch. Some things need to be worked out still, however I can say that I've been doing fine with my current setup under the new constraints already, so anyone looking at this guide and building from it as-is shouldn't have a difficult time with some practice. The fundamentals of NB tanking have not changed, we simply have to monitor our resources more closely.

In the meantime, I've answered a few of the questions people have for me about my thoughts on how to manage these changes already. Feel free to check out my guide for yourself. As always, this simply what I do, and when I designed this guide, I did so with the intent that people could adjust it to their liking, which is why I disclosed so much information about the concepts surrounding the class, rather than just telling everyone exactly what to do and pretending there are no alternative options.

Some preliminary thoughts that haven't made it onto the thread yet include magicka drain poisons and potentially a change in recommended sets, which I haven't finished going through yet. Also, NB sustain is better now since the quoted post due to the changes with Siphoning Strikes acting more like Rally, in that it gives a portion of resources back based on duration of the buff.

The new trial is a different kind of beast to conquer, and how exactly a NB tank fits into the group makeup is going to be different in HoF than in other trials. I'm also simultaneously working on a Warden build, and I may put together a guide for it as well if time permits, especially if I think people will benefit from having it.

Edit: One more thing I forgot to mention is that CP changed pretty dramatically in this update, and my CP allocation got a total makeover. I have a rough draft of all my CP already, but I'm not at home right now to superimpose that to my guide. This post serves as a good reminder to do that, though, so thanks!