Nightblade Tanks

Lapin_Logic

NIGHTBLADE TANK. It is not even viable anymore, the changes to siphoning strikes leave the magicka based nightblade sap tank with no way to gain stamina.

PVE on live i use funnel health regularly single target or sap in AOE trash to proc the small chance for stamina gain, i then suppliment this with dropping block when safe to light attack, this allows me to bring utility heal over time to my group, keep my own buffs up and sustain my stamina.

From a TANK perspective, the change now means my ONLY choice is to invest more into stamina & repeatedly drop block to either spam siphoning strikes light attacks (increasing the chances to get stunned/CC) or just charge up heavy attacks (not easy in a big trash pull when the nightblade had no holding CC i.e.tallons. also i now have to choose stamina or magicka return. when i need magicka to constantly heal (because nightblade had no class burst heal) and i need stamina to block because ice staff tanking does not offer the resistances or block efficiency of 1h and shield.

if SAP tank does not work then i am left with stamina tank, that means i give NO group utility, (already forced to run swarm mothers helm for a chains/CC) and MUST run PVP to unlock VIGOR as a half decent heal.

NB needs sap to function as it currently does on the live server as NB on the PTS is now the worst TANK class. sorc can shield stack or dark deal stamina back. DK has its ignious shields and ultimates way of gaining stamina. Templar can have other people synergise spears & repentance corpses for stamina and the Warden can have the BULL NETCH poot stamina directly into your pool.

Give NB its old siphoning attacks back or at least 1 morph that works as it does on live. or a new better way for a tank to gain stamina. the new pts morphs are great for DPS but not for TANKS.

there is not an armor set i can change to make it work because the whole skill does not exsist any more.

Strider_Roshin

Oh yeah, this is definitely a RIP Nightblade tank patch.

Brrrofski

Yeh, rip my favourite build in Pve

usmcjdking

NB tank will be fine - just without siphoning.

IwakuraLain42

Don't misunderstand me, I don't like the sustain changes one bit, but if you are perma blocking as a saptank then you are doing something wrong. My NB Blocks only the heavy hits and relies on Leeching/Baharas Curse/Malubeth for healing. That should still work.

dodgehopper_ESO

I was worried about these concerns as well. I love my argonian sapper.:(

Lynx7386

usmcjdking wrote: »

NB tank will be fine - just without siphoning.

Siphoning attacks is the only reason sap tanks even work, so no, they won't be "fine".

This is just zos forcing us even further towards not being able to effectively play out of the box builds. No non-dk tanks at all anymore.

esoub17_ESO30

OP is correct. With this change as is, a KB tank can't use SS in a practical vet dungeon or trial sitch, and there is no other resource recovery skill... just the passive.

It cost 2700 in full plate, recovers 396 per light atk. and lasts 20 sec. That means 7 atks to gain 72 Stam or Mag. Assuming you:

A) only block once per 4 seconds, which isn't realistic in difficult content
execute the rest of your rotation flawlessly to maintain buffs and debuffs, again not realistic in difficult content

you have just 8 opportunities to light atk.

-1 Mirage
0 SS
1 light atk
2 block
3 puncture
4 shades
5 light atk
6 block
7 light atk
8 shades
9 light atk
10 block
11 light atk
12 shades
13 light atk
14 block
15 puncture
16 shades
17 light atk
18 block
19 light atk
20 shades
21 Block
Repeat

So under ideal conditions, you net 468 resource before you have to recast. It's nearly worthless for resource while tanking.

It's only real value is to quickly restore health and eventually some resource while kiting.

fred4

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Don't misunderstand me, I don't like the sustain changes one bit, but if you are perma blocking as a saptank then you are doing something wrong. My NB Blocks only the heavy hits and relies on Leeching/Baharas Curse/Malubeth for healing. That should still work.

So, what content do you play? The recommendation I have gotten from others playing trials at the highest level, is that you indeed need to perma-block, unless you know the mechanics very, very, very well.

There are some other things you could still do, such as using either the 1H+S or Bolstering Darkness ultis, and gain resources from heavy attacks then. In my estimation you won't have those ultis often enough for long enough, though, even with an ulti-gen build. Specifically I am talking about Kena's PvP tanking build, which I adapted for PvE.

I also believe trial tanks probably favor group utility sets, maybe Ebon, rather than the more self-centered sets of you and I.

Lapin_Logic

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Don't misunderstand me, I don't like the sustain changes one bit, but if you are perma blocking as a saptank then you are doing something wrong. My NB Blocks only the heavy hits and relies on Leeching/Baharas Curse/Malubeth for healing. That should still work.

thing is, if you are running those 3 sets, then your class is bringing nothing, you might as well just run these 3 sets on a DK, because it isn't a sap tank any more, i like the freedom to run spell power cure, worms raiment, sanctuary, or another group utility set while being able to offer some nice heals to the group, only relying on a healer for a burst or 2 in tricky times, on live i can be last man standing and get off a res or 2. on the pts in mere seconds you are out of gas and swinging your weapon like a demented woodsman.

SirDopey

Anyone commenting actually been on the PTS yet?

Has any tried to see how viable frost staff tanking is on a NB running alteration mastery (3 jewelry, 1 staff 1 sash).

Those of us that have been in the game long enough know that all the crying the world won't stop changes when ZOS is set in their way. Our best foot forward is to actually get on the pts and start testing alternative theories.

acw37162

There is a very legitimate argument to be made for buffing the recovery on both morphs is LS.

Is the the netch is free because play testing told the developers it was not a good design the LS is definately the same way.

Having to preform 5 strikes to break even resource wise is a little much.

The base skill cost may need to come down or the return improved to so three light attacks puts you even four and beyond puts you into positive recovery.

esoub17_ESO30

On live I run Frost Staff on my back bar for kite and DPS situations with Arcane jewelry, Atronach, and Bosmere stam. I did test this on PTS and... while the sustain is viable with bar swapping to split resource consumption... the staff simply does not mitigate enough for trial tanking.

All things considered, I expect I'll need to swap 4 divines for sturdy, max Shadow Ward, and possibly swap jewelry just to keep ahead of block costs in trials.

SirMewser

All classes should be allowed to fulfill any role, some better than others, but each offering something unique that gives the class that identity.

Biggest issue is the general community, there are countless times where the host of a group or some bigot within the group will say "Why is X person using Y class as a Z role?" promoting this: alarmist male vilification.

As a result of said propaganda, that person can be exiled from the group before any performance of their character could be shown or otherwise, blame them for the dysfunction of the group after a wipe or prolonged battle.

People aren't always wrong though, the developers should improve the classes' capabilities for certain, it's just unfortunate that there is distrust from classic MMO fanatics that poison the game with labeling, thus, makes others' lose faith.

Stay strong everyone.

efster

Saptanking was pointless in trials since Maw launched and the crag trials got buffed; now saptanking will be pointless everywhere. gg zos, way to claim they want class/role diversity when in reality by diversity they mean "NBs have a choice between being stamina DDs and magicka DDs".

Siphoning attacks isn't even on my bar on HM Rakkhat on live because there is no time to drop block and LA, and funnel spam is a bad idea because mag for shields is more important in that fight. I guess I will start taking SA off everywhere, because what's the point? I already have to rely on mostly nonclass skills to tank anything that doesn't fall over from a magsorc looking at it funny. Really disappointed with the direction zos seems hellbent on, countdown to class change tokens, I guess.

crobarXIII

Has anyone tested leeching on a nightblade tank yet? I'm having a hard time figuring out how I would be able to use this ability to help sustain myself. Guess I'll have to start using light attack inner fire on hard hitting mobs & save pierce armor for bosses in order to conserve stamina. But doing so would mean no debuff on those targets & how am I supposed to light attack a mob that is 20+ meters away in order to proc leeching. Even then, I would have to do 6 light attacks in 20 seconds just to get the cost of the ability back

actosh

Ive tanked nhof trial yesterday with a template stam nb tank(also with my dk tank later on) and i will write it down in detail today when i get the time to do so.

U cant compare it to the Performance on live i have right now with my stam nb tank(tanked almost only with him in the last 9months).

There are a few ways to conserve stam.

Lapin_Logic

actosh wrote: »

Ive tanked nhof trial yesterday with a template stam nb tank(also with my dk tank later on) and i will write it down in detail today when i get the time to do so.

U cant compare it to the Performance on live i have right now with my stam nb tank(tanked almost only with him in the last 9months).

There are a few ways to conserve stam.

would be interested hearing what you did, was your survival heavily reliant on your supporting players or sets?

crobarXIII

I was thinking about replacing pierce armor with mark this way I conserve stam & get a heal when dps kill target but the issue with that is I would have to use 2 abilities (inner fire & mark) just to be able to do what 1 pierce armor does.

crobarXIII

Lynx7386 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

NB tank will be fine - just without siphoning.

Siphoning attacks is the only reason sap tanks even work, so no, they won't be "fine".

This is just zos forcing us even further towards not being able to effectively play out of the box builds. No non-dk tanks at all anymore.

I'm actually curious about a templar tank with the changes to luminous shards

actosh

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Ive tanked nhof trial yesterday with a template stam nb tank(also with my dk tank later on) and i will write it down in detail today when i get the time to do so.

U cant compare it to the Performance on live i have right now with my stam nb tank(tanked almost only with him in the last 9months).

There are a few ways to conserve stam.

would be interested hearing what you did, was your survival heavily reliant on your supporting players or sets?

Im in a raid right now. When we are done i will tell u. Gonna hurry up ^^

actosh

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Ive tanked nhof trial yesterday with a template stam nb tank(also with my dk tank later on) and i will write it down in detail today when i get the time to do so.

U cant compare it to the Performance on live i have right now with my stam nb tank(tanked almost only with him in the last 9months).

There are a few ways to conserve stam.

would be interested hearing what you did, was your survival heavily reliant on your supporting players or sets?

Hey, so here is my point of view based on the experience i got from One Tamriel till now.
I own a Tank of each Class on my account while having the molst expirience with my Stam Dk Tank & my Stam NB Tank.

Both are wearing the same sets(alkosh/ebon/warden), and will do so when Morrowind launches. On my Nb i may change the Monster Set since i recently tried Sentinel of However its called So there are no special sets needed to survive or sustain, just the meta stuff.

I try to go into detail with the Nb Stam Tank and try to compare the other Tanks to him, wich is just my opinion based on the expeerence i had with them. Note that i started the NB when we got the One Tamriel Patch. My other Tanks are way older.
The Raidguild i´m in isnt super top, but we have everything clear besides vmol hm at the moment in our Raidgroup.

Pro´s & Con´s
+ Fun to play and not as boring as perma block tanks.
+ Very rewarding but it is definitly hard to master.
+ The feeling that u can handle content wich most ppl think only the METAKNIGHTS aka Dk are capable off.
+ awesome sustain once u get the hang out of each bosses attack/movement patterns


- Almost ZERO group support from Class Skills/passives (only via sets wich every class has access to
- requires more situational awareness and muscle memory wich boss leaves chances to use LA for ressource restore (SA)
- no chains! wich sucks especially in vMOL at the second boss (rarely useable in trials nowadays and swarm mother is a band aid fix that is ok but could have been done better)

Sustain
Siphoning Attacks!!! First off, let me make one really important thing clear that @Autolycus mentioned in his guide for Magicka NB Tanks. The 10% chance to restore ressources when using a skill, is a COMPLEMANTRY MECHANIC, not the real reason why Siphoning is so good as it is right now on Live Servers. Each hit gives 1090 Stam/Mag on a Light or Heavy Attack.

Like i said above, u need to learn when to drop block for a split second, perform a light attack that u immediatly cancel with block back up. Coupled with Tripots, Synergies and the undaunted passives make it pretty decent to sustain. Just keep in mind that its harder to learn and to master than other Classes like DK& Sorc that have easier ressourcemanagement.

Survivability
Damageshields
The first thing u see when u check the Skilltrees available for Nightblades is that its the only Class right now, that has no access to a dmg shield, wich make your life so much easier in a lot of encounters or during heavy incoming dmg scenarios.
The only shields available to us are Boneshield and the one from the Light Armor Skilltree. I dont count the 1Hand/Board shield, since its only fro absorbing/reflecting projectiles and cant be count as a dmg shield like the others in the game.

Most of the time when i need to use a shield (warrior hm channeled attack, vmol hm meteors to name 2 situations) i take boneshield. Well it does cost almost 3.8k stamina per use so u dont spam it like a madman. The way siphoning attacks works right now on live is the only reason that u can sustain it. U may now think that Boneshield compared to other shields does provide a synergie option. While this is true, the Synergie is pretty bad. A group member that wants to use the synergie has to be within a 5meter area of you to get the chance to activate it. hm...now u may have read the tooltip and say "hey, that thing gives a shield for 60% of the hp". yes, true, but the average dd has 18k hp nowadays and 60% of that tiny pool are only 10.8k.

In situations when heay dmg is incoming that shield is mostly gone with ONE HIT!. I will take on Bonshield later in my post, since this ability needs a serious rework. Right now i only use it for myself and if accidently a dd or healer stands close enough to activate it, well nice for them, but like i said the conditions that have to happen to even have a chance to see the synergie option popping up on your screen is pretty low cause most bosses are so fat that allies simply cant get close enough to use the synergie.

Healing
Mostly i have only Refreshing path on my bar. yes even as a stambased tank, i use it for several reasons. it procs Major Ward/Resolve Buff for 11Seconds in 7/7 HA. It adds 3% max Health. It heals actually only 4ppl (including myself.) wich is a bug since it should heal 5 friendlys and you as long as they all stay on the path. The last few days i also tried Sentinel of whatever its called and refreshing path procs it pretty often so i´m happy if the little spider supports my group or me ^^.

Usefull Class Skills & Passives
+ Shadow Barrier
+ Siphoning Attacks
+ Catalyst

Those two really stand out of all the other stuff a nb has access to and for me they are the most important. Lets talk about the average things a NB got.

+/- Veil of Blades/Consuming Darkness (Ult): Pretty Situational since most of the time u r using Aggressive Warhorn

+/- Dark Shades: Yes they proc Minor Maim, they cost magicka wich is a good thing on a stambuild and they last long. But for me they could have gone much further wich the Shades and give them additional things they can apply. Since those are 2 shades one could add Minor breach/fracture in a 5 meter radius while the other adds minor vulnerability. Get creative and make it a real alternative to Heroic Slash!

+/- Blur: 15% Dodge chance. Can be nice depending on how much it procs and it cost magicka while "Mirage" also granting u minor ward/resolve

I wont talk a lot about the changes happening in Morrowind to us Nightblades, we all can read the Patch Notes and the Forums right now have enough threads regarding Nightblades. What i am going to do, is i try to give ZOs suggestions how to improve Nightblade tanks to make them more viable and a valid choice for tanking from daylies up to veteran trials since zos stated that they want every class to fullfill every role. I support that statement but dont streamline them to much while keeping each class their unique touch.

Wich changes have to be done so that Nightblades in the future to become valuable Tanks?

Boneshield rework
Boneshield needs to have a stammorph and a magicka one. The skill shouldnt rely on a synergie, but if u want to keep it that way, make the range(actuall only 5 meters) where the synergy is visible to your group mates way larger. 10-12 Meters would be a decent value. Cap it like it is on 4 players or allow it, like nearly every other skill to affect u & 5 other ppl. Dmg shields are needed as a Tank, and the other classes have pretty decent options. Maybe u should make it considerable for them as well.

Silver Leash
Should work like chains. It costs stam so chains offer a big advantage. Would be also a alternative to equip to Swarm mother wich i cover right below. Would be another way of pulling enemys for all classes.

Swarm Mother Set
With the recent changes to blocking (u will be charged every 0.25 seconds instead of 0.5 second) i think its time to reduce the cooldown down to 1 second.
Another option would be to connect that set directly to the undaunted taunt, and when u have swarm mother equiped while using the taunt immediatly pulls the targeted enemy to you.

Power Extraction
That ability is subpar to Steel Tornade or almost every other AOE. Make it grant Minor Expedition to u and 3 other Members. Since u draw power from your enemy.

Siphoning Strikes
You said on ESO Live in regard to the netch that it isnt good that a ressource return skill cost the ressource u want to restore. This should also count for Nightblades, since sorcs have their dark deal/exchange cost the opposite ressource of what it returns and its the same with DK´s. So either keep the values as they are right now on the pts and make it a free to cast skill. Other options would be to make it cheaper but it restores both ressources or it restores ressources for u and your team (should get a wide radius to have it any effect). There are more than enough suggestions floating around the forum in various threads and since u need to drop block to perform a light attack, u should reward that kind of gameplay(wich means let it restore a good amount of ressources). Keep the heal, i really like that change. Adjust the value depending on how the final version of SA will look like.

Refershing Path
To be honest, it should affect up to 5 allies(actually on live & pts only 3 allies) and grant them some minor buff or buffs.

Shadow Barrier passive
I only have a few suggestions for it to make it more worthwhile for tanks.

1. Increase the duration per heavy armor piece equiped by 2.5seconds instead of 1 resulting in a total uptime of 21.5Seconds(like shades).

2. As long as a Shadow Skill is active it activates shadow barrier. Thjat would be with refreshind 11.5 sec. with surprise attack 0secs. With shades around 21 secs. to make that passive a bit more worth it while dont pushing dps specs to hard with it.

Shades
They need additonal effects to make it a alternative to Heroic Slash. Let them add some other stuff like debuffs/buffs for the group as suggested above.
"Shades need additional things they can apply. Since those are 2 shades one could add Minor breach/fracture in a 5 meter radius while the other adds minor vulnerability. Get creative and make it a real alternative to Heroic Slash!"



There is a lot more stuff they could do especially to the Siphoning line to make your Group gain something as support. Also the lack of synergys( can only provide synergys via ultimates wich are almost never used since we got Warhorn) is something that needs to be looked at.

Thanks for reading the wall of text(if u did ^^) and i really hope to see some changes in regards to nightblade tanking.
english is not my first language so keep that in mind.

Thx, and have a nice day.

PS4_ZeColmeia

I'm torn on this, in tank mode this is a major benefit being able to hold a shield longer while casting sap essence. That said update 13 clearly explains why they did this change in update 14 (hint: staff changes).

actosh

I will never use a staff and thre is still no need to do so. I can understand why they killed the 10% chance to restore ressources.
But sa needs a buff to be in line with other ressource restore mechanics since it forces us to drop block.

AllPlayAndNoWork

usmcjdking wrote: »

NB tank will be fine - just without siphoning.

I agree I don't even use it in PvE for my NB tank.

esoub17_ESO30

I agree with everything Actosh said except the 10% proc being just a complimentary effect.

Sap tanks don't ave an AE CC like Talons or a native pull mechanic to cluster mobs and keep them clustered. The combination of 10% SS proc on all attacks makes spamming Sap an effective AE agro option on large packs. On a 5-pack, that's a 50% chance to return 2/3 the cost of Sap. Loosing the proc destroys this.

Honestly I don't see how the light/heavy attack requirement is even remotely balanced with a cast and forget (Templar) or cast once for large immediate return (DK, Sorc) skill. This needs to be factored into the efficiency balance.

For proper balance with other classes, the skill needs one of the following adjustments:
1) Nets a total resource restore nearly double that of comparable skills from other classes that aren't limited to light/heavy atk.
2) Provides a significant benefit to the rest of the group (group buff or AE mob debuff).
3) Procs 100% resource off ALL atks. or increased effect proportional to reduced proc chance.

The cost for the skill simply can't be more than double the return if attacking is required. Anything more makes the break even questionable in typical combat conditions.

A small cost is required to avoid spamming it for the passive activation it provides.

actosh

They wont return the 10% chance, since spamming is what they want to prevent.
Sorry to tell u that, but thats just a fact.

Anastian

I am really sad aswell, I only ever played a saptank and this mean I'll completely have to rethink the way I play.
Basically, the PTS patch as it is hits hard all of the mechanics on which the saptank relies on.
- No magician: even with seducer, sap essence costs a lot of magicka, so you cannot spam it anymore
- No proc of leeching strikes from aoes: once again, this reduces the chances you can refund partially a sap essence
- Argonian nerf on potions: let's be honest, the sap-tank build works best on an Argonian as you can benefit from the passives but now... There will be a huge nerf on that too.

So people who are testing, as I cannot download the PTS right now, do you have any tips on how we could still keep the "saptank" alive? Considering it's a tank heavily based on self-healing etcetera, which items would you wear to compensate for the changes? Would you alter some of the skills in your bars? Let me know ^^

actosh

Argonian is buffed.
Consuming potions restores now more ressources.
Only a nerf if u r above 38.5k on a ressource.

Regarding magsustain. U could throw in spellsym from the mages guild that cost u some health.

Anastian

Ah! So potions flat amounts are higher than the normal percentage amount. That's a huuuge relief!
Spellsym? To replace siphoning attacks? And what about stamina handling, with light attacks?

aeowulf

actosh wrote: »

They wont return the 10% chance, since spamming is what they want to prevent.
Sorry to tell u that, but thats just a fact.

but thats exactly what DK's have with helping hands? they can a magicka ability to get stamina. Helping hands is even a passive so it's free in resource costs, permanently active and is 100% chance not 10%.