STEVIL wrote: »

i cant imagine why nobody has thought of this variant on the #crownspiracy theory before now?

**cough**search function**cough**

Some things need repeating to drive the message home.

You give "people" too much credit.

The user and all related content has been deleted.

notimetocare wrote: »

Short version: You are an idiot
Long version: Balance is far from easy, new classes and skill lines often release overpowered because introducing entirely new skills into a game is not easy.

Templar nerfs come specifically from the fact that if they remained as they are now, nothing would ever be as valuable. Pre-nerf, If you wanted a main healer it was Templar. Nothing else, ever, for any good reason. Repentence, spears, a no-aim power heal. Templars needed pulled down a good peg. The changes my be overkill, but from what I have seen of people actually playing on the beta, it seems like Templars are still doing just fine, they just arent default number one.

One of my favorite developer statements comes from Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan, cant find the full quote atm, too lazy, but basically it outlines how hard it is to use a small sample size to balance anything. Internal testing, even the closed beta, it isnt enough to really see what is going to be broken. They had issues in Overwatch which has far less skills per hero than characters have in really any MMORPG. Trust me, you do not have a single idea what you are talking about if you think imbalance is a marketing ploy used by mmo companies.

One other important thing to note, it is always better to error on the side of making something new overpowered. YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain. When something is weak, it doesnt get played and it takes longer ot get useful data.

Well aren't you just a friendly, radiant bag of sunshine?

I could just as easily bring up counter points to argue, but there isn't much debating with strongly-opinionated narrow mindedness.

Food for thought, and what have you.

notimetocare wrote: »

YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain.

Have you even played this game?

So rarely do legitimately broken things get fixed even when being abused and/or complained about*. 90% of what is changed is misguided balance attempts that miss the mark.

*Clouding swarm, streak, and gapcloser into load screen, to name 3 very obvious ones off the top of my head.

Cadbury wrote: »

It's all part of the master plan to bring about a New World Order.

Wake up

Are you certain it is not you that needs to wake up?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Azurulia wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Short version: You are an idiot
Long version: Balance is far from easy, new classes and skill lines often release overpowered because introducing entirely new skills into a game is not easy.

Templar nerfs come specifically from the fact that if they remained as they are now, nothing would ever be as valuable. Pre-nerf, If you wanted a main healer it was Templar. Nothing else, ever, for any good reason. Repentence, spears, a no-aim power heal. Templars needed pulled down a good peg. The changes my be overkill, but from what I have seen of people actually playing on the beta, it seems like Templars are still doing just fine, they just arent default number one.

One of my favorite developer statements comes from Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan, cant find the full quote atm, too lazy, but basically it outlines how hard it is to use a small sample size to balance anything. Internal testing, even the closed beta, it isnt enough to really see what is going to be broken. They had issues in Overwatch which has far less skills per hero than characters have in really any MMORPG. Trust me, you do not have a single idea what you are talking about if you think imbalance is a marketing ploy used by mmo companies.

One other important thing to note, it is always better to error on the side of making something new overpowered. YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain. When something is weak, it doesnt get played and it takes longer ot get useful data.

I could just as easily bring up counter points to argue, but there isn't much debating with strongly-opinionated narrow mindedness.

Nailed it. Oh, not him, you OP. Look, I know the patch notes seem bad, but since the NDA lifted on how our characters perform, I can tell you with absolute confidence that my templar isn't missing a beat.

Relax, breathe, nothing is getting nerfed so wardens can be OP. Resources objectively didn't matter last patch. Take it from someone who tested?

Oh I'm not concerned in the slightest tbh. if anything I believe the changes are needed.

The changes aren't 'that' bad.

This is already being discussed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337718/zos-if-you-care-about-eso-please-take-time-to-read#latest

Azurulia wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

It's all part of the master plan to bring about a New World Order.

Wake up

Are you certain it is not you that needs to wake up?

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep. - Robert Frost

Also, coffee.

What is with people and thier non-stop conspiracy theories?

Every single change to the game that is made, there is someone is going on about how it is just some money making scheme to exploit all the players for cash. Are you all mentally ill? It is stuff like this that makes it extremely difficult to give actual feedback, especially important when the changes suck.The best possible way for them to get our money is to make a good game

Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to incompertence, they just think this is what is best for thier game, we think they are wrong. If this is a marketing stratgey it is a terrible one. Herp derp I got a marketing stratgey just before we release a big expansion we have all worked hard on. Lets nerf everything, yes everything, and make sure it is a big nerf so that all players have to give up on all progression they have made and have to go get totally different gear. That'll be great, It definately wont get a large number of players (particularly new ones) to quit because they feel like you wasted thier time.

My previous experience of something like this is back in Guild Wars 1. By the end of the game's development, they had released four expansion classes, in addition to the base of six. Of those four, three of them (Assassin, Dervish and Paragon) were so horribly broken that some of their key skills had to be reworked. The fourth -- Ritualist -- was also overpowered, but in a less apparent way. Notably, I felt that this happened because these classes added new mechanics to the game that were not fully understood until later.

I'm not sure if the Warden has abilities that changed the game so markedly the way these other classes in GW1 did. It seems like it is simply an easier exercise to file down key aspects of the existing classes to allow the new one a viable niche; after all, no such niche existed when the four classes were expected to do everything possible in the game.

notimetocare wrote: »

One other important thing to note, it is always better to error on the side of making something new overpowered. YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain. When something is weak, it doesnt get played and it takes longer ot get useful data.

variant on this is when you launch a PTS first release should be aimed at "too far" for the same reason. pain will show up quicker than "not quite there" and guide your results. Anyone who has even runa binary search function knows it better to have a result which directs you back towards where you were than one outward.

if the first PTS week wasn't showing too much on anything, you did not judge the changes correctly.

notimetocare wrote: »

Short version: You are an idiot
Long version: Balance is far from easy, new classes and skill lines often release overpowered because introducing entirely new skills into a game is not easy.

Templar nerfs come specifically from the fact that if they remained as they are now, nothing would ever be as valuable. Pre-nerf, If you wanted a main healer it was Templar. Nothing else, ever, for any good reason. Repentence, spears, a no-aim power heal. Templars needed pulled down a good peg. The changes my be overkill, but from what I have seen of people actually playing on the beta, it seems like Templars are still doing just fine, they just arent default number one.

One of my favorite developer statements comes from Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan, cant find the full quote atm, too lazy, but basically it outlines how hard it is to use a small sample size to balance anything. Internal testing, even the closed beta, it isnt enough to really see what is going to be broken. They had issues in Overwatch which has far less skills per hero than characters have in really any MMORPG. Trust me, you do not have a single idea what you are talking about if you think imbalance is a marketing ploy used by mmo companies.

One other important thing to note, it is always better to error on the side of making something new overpowered. YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain. When something is weak, it doesnt get played and it takes longer ot get useful data.

Agreed (okay, maybe not with the 'idiot' part, but certainly with the rest). As someone who plays three templars (two mag, one stam) I can freely admit that they are all high powered enough to make them push out the other classes for a lot of roles. Just yesterday my Stamplar was one-hitting Harvesters with Power of the Light and no additional damage (and that's supposed to be a debuff, FFS). That's broken, and broken stuff needs fixing, regardless of how validating we might feel all that power is.

So Repentance and Spears got nerfed? Templars have just been 'easy mode' for way too long now (yes, even the Stamplars) and not once while playing one have I even felt the need to check my resource management because it's virtually non-existent, and that shifts balance away from the other classes, so something had to happen.

Will Warden be OP when it drops? Definitely, but that's true of any new class introduced into an MMO. Will it become the 'healer of choice'? Probably not, as it will still get outclassed by Sorcs or Templars with Resto and a decent pool. Is it part of some grand scheme to sell an expansion pack? If you're paying $50 just to play one class (and maybe just half of one class), then it really doesn't require much machination to pull the wool over your eyes.

It'll all get balanced within a couple of months. Thanks to the inevitable whining that StamWars 'just aren't strong enough', all stamina based classes will get a bit of love back (because the nerfs to CP cost reduction/regen will make it hard not to apply those balances across the board). Everyone will be happy until the next change they don't like and it's time to break out the tinfoil and pitchforks again...

Well, between Templar and warden, I think I'll like warden better.
I like the pets assistance and it's fresh and new.

notimetocare wrote: »

Short version: You are an idiot
Long version: Balance is far from easy, new classes and skill lines often release overpowered because introducing entirely new skills into a game is not easy.

Templar nerfs come specifically from the fact that if they remained as they are now, nothing would ever be as valuable. Pre-nerf, If you wanted a main healer it was Templar. Nothing else, ever, for any good reason. Repentence, spears, a no-aim power heal. Templars needed pulled down a good peg. The changes my be overkill, but from what I have seen of people actually playing on the beta, it seems like Templars are still doing just fine, they just arent default number one.

One of my favorite developer statements comes from Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan, cant find the full quote atm, too lazy, but basically it outlines how hard it is to use a small sample size to balance anything. Internal testing, even the closed beta, it isnt enough to really see what is going to be broken. They had issues in Overwatch which has far less skills per hero than characters have in really any MMORPG. Trust me, you do not have a single idea what you are talking about if you think imbalance is a marketing ploy used by mmo companies.

One other important thing to note, it is always better to error on the side of making something new overpowered. YOu get much better data on what needs changed when something is overkill. More people play it, more people abuse it, more people complain. When something is weak, it doesnt get played and it takes longer ot get useful data.

I take your point, however I don't agree that the original poster is a idiot. ZOS have proved over the years that they are incapable of balancing the game, so making thing even more complicated by adding another class is an act of lunacy that can only be explained by marketing pressure or total incompetence and for all their faults I don't believe that they are incompetent..

From a business standpoint, the client/customer remains loyal when he or she has consistent performance on a character they invested hundreds of hours into developing. Making major changes even temporary ones that eliminate the advantages of a certain character only serves to alienate a large player base and makes other observing players wary of investing highly into further developing their characters. Additionally, long term customers are always the most important for a company because it eliminates the need to spend an exorbitant amount of money on advertising. So it behooves ZOS to keep all classes consistently important while innovating new classes and races into the game to draw new gamers and keep older ones.