fericirea wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Delves are too hard (paraphrasing)

I'm going to regret jumping into this, but to be fair, delve content is extremely easy. Analytically speaking, a typical delve boss has ~140k health. With 7k DPS (which is about the same as alternating between light attacking and using some damaging skill), you can down a delve boss in about 20s solo.

Of course everyone inserts a skill now and then. Delves are also easily soloable from early levels onward. If you are having problems completing delves in a group, I don't think the lowest hanging fruit in terms of addressing what is preventing you from succeeding lies in any of these changes.

But that's the issue that I bring up in my posts.

When using my Normal every-day-PvE-gear outside of the PTS, I sleep-walk through Delves as well. I've spent all 600 possible of my 619CP in the right places to have that great balance between maximizing my DPS and getting the most return out of Cost Reduction and Sustain CP nodes, armor passives, etc. With my normal set-up, Delves aren't an issue.

On the PTS, testing the Patch updates/changes, means that I'm not using "my normal pre-3.0 set-up. I'm using only the tools available in regards to the PTS server and assigning my CP according to the new structure that the Patch will bring if it goes live.

As I've said in my posts, we did complete the Delves, but we were running out of resources and it took forever to regain them. Thus, Delves now give issues. Pretty big ones too.

What the detractors keep cherry-picking out and glossing over, is the Public Dungeons and their Champions/Bosses. Those fights have become something similar to Wrothgar's World Bosses (not the same, but very similar) in difficulty, and that's mostly because your resource regen/sustain took a dump (even when I equipped Crafted Sets that helped DPS in only the most minimal of ways, but maximized resource sustain and regen under the current PTS changes). There's a severe drop off, and finishing these is almost not possible for an above-average player like myself and my small group of friends.

And that's another point that keeps getting glossed over by my detractors. They're looking at this from the perspective of someone/players who regularly do the end-game level content, and thus have that absolute BiS gear in the game. OF COURSE that gear will easily mitigate the coming changes, and OF COURSE those end-game-level-elite players will have multiple methods of mitigating the changes through many and varied numbers of top-tier Sets.

But again; I'm just an average to above-average player. I have never claimed to be more, and sometimes I am less-than-average. But I'm still just an average, real-life time-limited, Casual Player. Sure I've been playing MMO's for 20+ years, but age (in my 40's now) and real-life constraints have made me step back from the "hardcore" style of playing, and have dropped me comfortably into the "Casual" category.

I'm doing this and testing these changes from the perspective of the other 98% of the player base. The Casual The players who don't have access to that end-game-level-BiS-elite-gear, and in all likelihood will never have access to the end-game-level gear, simply because they cannot/will not put in the heavy amount of time necessary to get said gear.

I'm not ragging on those Elite-end-game-level players either. I don't want any of my posts to come across like that. They have the available time to put in, they've practiced over countless hours, and spent more countless hours grinding out Trials/vMA/vDSA runs to get that gear. They should definitely be rewarded for that time and effort expenditure by having the absolute best gear in the game.

But just because that sub-2% of the player base can easily sleep-walk Delves and Public Dungeons with their BiS gear, even after the changes, does not in any way mean that the rest of the 98% of the game population will be able to do it as well.

We're average and below-average players. We cannot, either by real life or time constraints, put in the same work that those Elite players have done. For the rest of us, these changes are going to be horribly punishing. Content will become nigh impossible to complete due to a rampant lack of resources and near nonexistent sustain and cost reduction.

We're going to be facing these challenges, but not with BiS gear or abilities honed to near-perfection over countless hours of running Trials and near-perfection in Skill rotation. We're (the 98% majority that are Casual players) going to be facing these increased challenges and character survivability reductions with little more than overworld Crafted Sets, and abilities honed to just-good-enough level.

So if these changes are easily overcome by the Elite-end-game-level players and their wealth of top-tier-BiS gear and perfect Skill rotations; good for them. Theyu've earned that.

But for the rest of the players, for the vast majority of the player population, these changes are going to make regular Zone content a severe, punishing chore. That type of arbitrary difficulty increase will only suck the fun out of every aspect of the game, and once that "fun" factor is gone, replaced by needless frustration, the normal Casual Player will simply leave for an MMORPG that does have that "fun", and allows them to romp around with some challenge, but not too much difficulty.

That's the perspective that I'm testing these changes under, the 98% majority Casual Player (that are the bread-&-butter of every single MMORPG that has ever existed); and it saddens me greatly that my detractors cannot see what these changes are going to do to the regular-average-joe player.

I'm not angry at this lack of perspective, but I'm saddened. It's a shame that this perspective keeps getting glossed over, cherry-picked out of discussion about the changes, and forgotten about as irrelevant.

@Uriel_Nocturne,

Please see my post a few above this one. I consider myself just an average gamer, certainly not elite in any sense of the word. I spend most of my time running regular world content and my chars usually have a mixture of crafted and relatively easy to obtain dropped gear (i.e., nothing from Trials, VMA, etc...).

Like you and many others, I was worried the changes would dramatically impact my ability to complete just the basic world content, so I decided to see for myself. The char I took out yesterday to test the changes (copied one) was just one of my "mess around" farming and crafting chars. At least from my experience yesterday, he had absolutely no problem completing any of the regular world content, including the one public dungeon he pretty much facerolled. I'll probably take out my other maxed classes similarly geared and specced to see if any of them have issues as well.

While I can't speak directly to the problems you and your friends are having, at least for me the regular world content has not changed much at all for my copied chars. Of course, if I notice anything different in additional testing, I'll post here and let everyone know.

PvP in Amberplasm/Willpower/monster/vMA staves is fairly workable (2800 SD, 34k magicka and 1300 regen... Stats in no-cp BGs), but the lack of resources means you won't win a protracted battle. And resource poisons are still a ***. I'll probably regear to the new sets and BG meta

But if you are already used to no-CP play, this patch won't really be much of a surprise for you

MissBizz wrote: »

Live copied characters:

Overworld/Public Dungeons:

Magicka Templar: *warning, this is my "scrub" character which I just use random whatever on. Including getting passives such as treasure hunter on it*

Perfectly fine. Overworld mobs die too fast for the sustain changes to matter. When solo, repentance is no diffference, and could never used shards on myself anyways.

Magicka Sorc:
No difference.

VMA:
Magicka Sorc.
*important* I am not an awesome player. I do not have the spawn spots super memerized, I'm not flawless, and it still takes me 1.5-2 hours to complete on live. So I'm just being able to do VMA. This is important. Players with much MORE experience in VMA are still doing fine.

So far, have not completed VMA on PTS. I at first struggled with sustain, as heavy attacks were hard to get off in certain scenarios as you often need to move out of the way of things. Swapped to lich back bar, and this seems to have "fixed" (not completely, but massively help) my sustain issues, but am now running into other unknown issues - may be CP related with things such as Hardy/Ele def maxing out at 15% instead of 25%.

Thoughts so far:

The changes are not that bad. The issue I am finding is when you do not have the ability/knowledge to adapt (like myself). Without superior knowledge and the massive amount of changes (even though my mag sorc saw no ability changes, did get hit by sustain/cp) it's extremely hard to even know why things are harder. It's like learning all over again.

Will be doing some 4 man content and normal trials this weekend, will update. From what I have seen so far, I *think* the only time it will be a noticeable change is on final boss hard modes, where the fights are extended. As mentioned, not tested, just the vibe I get from testing what I have.

Thank you

Flattedfifth wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Live copied characters:

Overworld/Public Dungeons:

Magicka Templar: *warning, this is my "scrub" character which I just use random whatever on. Including getting passives such as treasure hunter on it*

Perfectly fine. Overworld mobs die too fast for the sustain changes to matter. When solo, repentance is no diffference, and could never used shards on myself anyways.

Magicka Sorc:
No difference.

VMA:
Magicka Sorc.
*important* I am not an awesome player. I do not have the spawn spots super memerized, I'm not flawless, and it still takes me 1.5-2 hours to complete on live. So I'm just being able to do VMA. This is important. Players with much MORE experience in VMA are still doing fine.

So far, have not completed VMA on PTS. I at first struggled with sustain, as heavy attacks were hard to get off in certain scenarios as you often need to move out of the way of things. Swapped to lich back bar, and this seems to have "fixed" (not completely, but massively help) my sustain issues, but am now running into other unknown issues - may be CP related with things such as Hardy/Ele def maxing out at 15% instead of 25%.

Thoughts so far:

The changes are not that bad. The issue I am finding is when you do not have the ability/knowledge to adapt (like myself). Without superior knowledge and the massive amount of changes (even though my mag sorc saw no ability changes, did get hit by sustain/cp) it's extremely hard to even know why things are harder. It's like learning all over again.

Will be doing some 4 man content and normal trials this weekend, will update. From what I have seen so far, I *think* the only time it will be a noticeable change is on final boss hard modes, where the fights are extended. As mentioned, not tested, just the vibe I get from testing what I have.

Thank you

For what @Flattedfifth ? lol honest feedback? Then no problem

To clarify. In overworld/public dungeons... there was a change.. but it was super minimal. I mean like... instead of end the fight with a nearly full resource bar... you're ending with 1/3.

Tholian1 wrote: »

@MissBizz,

Thank you for taking the time to test things out. I am much more at ease to learn that the overworld experience won't really be much different.

Not thrilled about having to relearn how to fight, but then I never really did that properly to begin with. Gives me the chance to break bad habits.

@Tholian1 To be honest, if you were already struggling with sustain in overworld, yes, you will see a difference. There is a difference, but it completely depends on the player. If sustain was hard before for you, yes, it's slightly harder now. BUT, if you're already working towards getting "better" or whatever, you're likely already trying different things, so you'll just continue doing so.

I think the "relearning" portion is most obvious with people already in a comfortable spot who are looking to do harder content. For my overworld/publid dungeons - I did not change any skills on my bar, or change my gear. For VMA it was definitely not happening with my old gear - so I swapped stuff around. Essentially, that harder the content - the more difference you will see. I don't do vet trials on live even, so I can't comment on those. Another thing to note, is that in "harder" content.. things like VMA you have 0 support from others, where-as things such as dungeons/trials you have support from other. To go even further, in dungeons you normally have a support role (healer) taking care of 3 players, but in dungeons you have 2 support taking care of 10 - so 1 supprt taking care of 5 essentially. I imagine there will be a difference, but since I generally do vet dungeons vs normal trials... it's kinda hard to compare

Glamdring wrote: »

MissBizz, you do realise that the floor is raised and the ceiling lowered? Which means casuals will have it easier

@Glamdring Yes, although to be honest - I don't know how this honestly raises the floor. Once again goes back to me not actually be able to fully understand the changes and how it effects everything. I can't really see, as at the overworld/public dungeon level, the only changes are noticed were minimal - but not for the better. How does that raise the floor?

Glamdring wrote: »

How much CP u have? Did u redistribute em on the PTS? They changed the value of CP spent so u get more bang for the bucks at the beginning and alot less the more u spend.

I recently hit 600, I didn't relocate it on my templar.. meaning I was missing a bunch of points (since they don't move your cost reduction points elsewhere for you). This is where it gets confusing. Where's the floor? Are we talking scaled characters? Characters with 0 CP? Characters with 300? Because now the changes with how CP helps your max stat, is made better for players in the start of CP since at 300 you have about as much extra resources as you do at 600 on live.

I had changed them on my Sorc, as that was needed for VMA.

MissBizz wrote: »

Glamdring wrote: »

How much CP u have? Did u redistribute em on the PTS? They changed the value of CP spent so u get more bang for the bucks at the beginning and alot less the more u spend.

I recently hit 600, I didn't relocate it on my templar.. meaning I was missing a bunch of points (since they don't move your cost reduction points elsewhere for you). This is where it gets confusing. Where's the floor? Are we talking scaled characters? Characters with 0 CP? Characters with 300? Because now the changes with how CP helps your max stat, is made better for players in the start of CP since at 300 you have about as much extra resources as you do at 600 on live.

I had changed them on my Sorc, as that was needed for VMA.

The CP distribution in the individual stars was also changed. For example, on PTS you can get to ~24% on Bastion with ~80 points, where on live the same result takes ~95 points. This makes it easier for those with a lesser number of CP to get to higher results from stars with the same number of points they currently have invested, where it doesn't help those that already have them maxed out. One can also spread CPs around and get an overall increase across different stars without as much loss on the stars they take them from (e.g., I removed points from Bastion and put them elsewhere).

I tested stuff on PTS, I started with copying my pvp build (stam dk on a template) and seeing if it can sustain against pve mobs. I was able to solo a part of the normal dungeon with it, and it was harder than soloing vet on live. I was satisfied with sustain, it basically only dropped a tiny bit in 1v1 situations.
Then I decided to test PVE dps, almost succesfully copied my live pve dps build and got exactly the same results as on live on a target dummy - 23-24k dps. The lag was really messing me up though, felt like air is water. I weaved (or tried to) some (or a lot?) of heavy attacks, sustain wasn't too much worse, but I of course had put on some extra stam regen.

Then I tried PVE tanking and it, sadly, left a very bad impression. On live I can go and try to solo a vet dungeon, here I can barely hope to hold off a group of vet mobs while panickingly attempting to replicate my group buffing on live as well as taunting. I'd say PVE tanking took an incredibly huge hit, I can't believe it. Maybe devs think that all tanks just stand there healing through damage, using taunt and debuff once a minute. But no, if I wanna be useful to my team I must taunt and debuff all the mobs, and cast group buffs after it. Here I was barely able to taunt one group of vet mobs, not even doing buffs/debuffs, barely healing myself.

Later I came to test dueling. Well, I guess I can say I enjoyed me experience, everything feels a tiny bit more balanced. Endless duels are not going anywhere of course. But at least there will be generally less of them, skill and internet connection now play a much bigger role, as well as tactics. Older and slower guys are never going to bother themselves to come and play any form of PVP outside of a team of thirty brave men, 1v1s are nice now.

Well i tried to play a template magplar on PTS, my experience after running FG1 normal solo:

The magicka was enough to fight trash, not because of the sustain offered but simply because the magickapool was big enough and mobs died rather fast.
All mobs that have HP pools <= those of public dungeon bosses were pretty much the same, only small sustain issues showed already.

When it comes to bossfights without any adds, the magicka was gone quite fast, even while keeping up magickasteal and channeled focus.
Once it was gone it was a pain to get any magicka back since you where in an endless circle of recasting buffs, keeping yourself alive and painfully slow heavy attacks.
It was annoying, it was boring, it wasn't anything close to being a fast paced combat which they claim to support.

The only fights i didn't have magicka issues where those with a lot of adds, because on some of them the limitations of magickasteal didn't seem to work. From 0 to 100% magicka in a few seconds by using aoe magickasteal and blockade was a pleasant surprise, but probably a bug.

I didn't test on a skeleton which has even more HP than a normal mode dungeon boss to prevent frustration..

My opinion based on this:
- Solo play won't be affected too much.
- Even with a decent group i don't expect much fun in veteran group or raid environments, the sustain was just as bad as i feared, even while considering the lower stats of the templates.
- I still don't understand how they want us to manage ressources and keep their "fast paced combat". Am i supposed to have 4000 regen? Then they better update the values of regeneration. Am i supposed to use some tools to manage ressurces? Then they better give me those tools first, however they look like.
- Devs should finally accept that they can't balance both pvp and pve at the same time, neither will be balanced that way.

Idinuse wrote: »
I get the impression that some are reporting results on a template build (no race passives, not "right gear" i.e.) and others are reporting their ported Live main characters results? Just a thought.

---

That's a good callout. For those posting about your experiences, please mention if you're using a copied Live character, a template, or creating a brand new character. That'll help both players who are looking for opinions and our team who is reading feedback in this thread. Thanks!

---

.

Im running a template and a non - template as well as bringing in my own characters.

My Template - has mundus, high level gear, full racials and all points allocated.

I am having the same issue with the magika regeneration and costs. The inbalance is terrible. It isnt just an issue with the templates.

I did not use combat dummy, I used what I consider to be 'real world' scenario that has enough consistency that if you average enough runs together, you get reasonably meaningful data. Also did not switch to adaptive build - wanted to keep changes as small as possible.

The only change between live vs. PTS builds/gear is obviously the CP that is no longer available to take. Have noted it below. Only CP 406 so I represent an 'avg' player - not noob, not max 600.

Keyword = reasonable. I am not implying this is decimal place precise nor absolutely consistent, just averaged over 6 runs each. Reasonable.

All info below using my main Breton - Magsorc
Gear: switched to 'reasonable' gear any player, any experience should be able to get with whatever we want to call as relative ease:
Julianos 5pc + Torug 3pc + Willpower jewelry set
Armor all gold, jewelry purple
Gold Glyphs: armor all +mag, jewelry +spell dmg

Build: Double destro, non-pet build, using inner light + aegis for ~40.5k magika pool, with 868 mag recovery including vamp bonus
Mainbar: standard force pulse, frags, inner light, aegis, power surge
Backbar: aoe skills -> elemental aoe + liquid aoe, inner light, aegis, hardened ward

Methodology - started digital timer on first initiation of combat by attacking trash mob closest to me from same spot, same nirncrux mine in all runs. Timed each to completion with boss falling dead after the 3 trash waves plus pre boss wave.

1- Live server, (6) runs averaged on Nirncrux mine - beating all trash + boss = 2min, 20sec

2-PTS server, (6) runs averaged on Nirncrux mine - beating all trash + boss = 4min, 31 sec

Other observations: used same blue food as current live meta, only changed standard DPS cp from usual meta to replace mag recovery no longer in the green tree
Had 135 points to spend in green tree so instead of former magician, took 100 points in arcanist to max out 15% mag recovery + remaining 35 points into tenacity to boost heavy attack mag recovery

On live, my mag bar never dropped below ~65-70%, and as standard with usual max dps burst rotation, swapped only to aoe bar to refresh aoes, and kept blasting away with main bar pulse + frags on proc only usual dps roation. Was never in any serious danger, hp never got hit and could spam wards all day.

On PTS, the world was not ending, saying this is not tolerable is hysterical over reaction...BUT -- my magika pool was always on near dry after the ~1-2 min mark, I was chugging mag potions like crazy soon as cooldown came up, and I was 95% of time on backbar using constant lightning staff heavy attack between aoe refreshes. Almost no switching to main bar to pump up dps because heavy attack was only thing keeping me alive to get mag back to refresh my ward

Reminder - I am not doing this in BiS gear, I am using the 'standard' gear that any non-trials person can get, and hopefully therefore reflect what I think the average player should experience. I know I can replace glyphs, put ele drain on my bar, etc. I was just doing this live v PTS tests of 6 runs each to get a baseline , that is all.

So please no attacks why I wasn't using X skill, or why not drinking witchmothers brew - I will do ALL that when Morrow launches. I just wanted to see if I kept to as close a 'dps' build as I had on live, what the effect would be.

My conclusion is it nearly doubled (bit more) my solo time to beat nirncrux. The good news is I did not die. I was never in any actual serious danger of dying. So conclusions:

#1 - we all know overland is cake walk. So if the baseline is affected at least to degree I am nearly drained dry on mag pool of 40.5k with vamp + standard setup recovery of 868, and thankfully destro passive of 3.6k mag recovery on kill with destro skill is still there (that's frankly all that kept me in the recovery game) then I conclude two takes at this time

It is guilty of exaggeration to say we can not adapt to this. Given I did these with zero adjustments to build, drink, glyph, etc - the world will not end. I also did not use ANY sorc sustain that I know will be debated as needs more nerf, too OP, whatever - no conversion used on bar. I basically did this as close to a mag build of any class as possible.

However, if I'm being this drained on what was formerly cake walk overland encounter like nirncrux mine, I can see how upper end trials is going to be affected, even with group buffs.

Theory - by changing my spell dmg jewelry glyphs, by adding ~300 more recovery with witchmother, and switching torug 3pc to seducer 3pc, I am quite sure will be able to adapt. Will be bit slower to kill, but I guess that is what ZOS wants, to have us give up some time to kill to manage sustain.

But it does not live up to their 'we want it to be fast action game' because the new sustain management = lot longer encounters for anything that isn't a 5 sec burst fight. I am hopeful some of these nerfs will be scaled back some. I can live with some, and as said, admit can adapt to what they have now.

But it is LESS FUN. That is the bottom line.

Not end of the world. Not hysterical over reaction that as base mag dps (using no sorc unique skill without a counterpart other than possibly liquid lightning on my bar), but just LESS FUN.

So I hope ZOS sees and reads this thread. I admit your new changes are livable in terms of adapting to them. But in your grand design, in your quest for constant over turning of established character norms, someone seems to not have measured the FUN factor because no matter how much I admit these changes are adaptable...it sure as hell isn't as much fun as before.

I am a "Casual" style player. I have been playing the game since beta. I still have the toon I created during early access. I have watched the changes over the years. Some I agreed with and others I still hate to this day. I openly admit that I am not good enough at PVP to say I suck. Some of the changes I never agreed with were the ones aimed at PVP without leaving PVE alone. Complaints from the PVP crowd caused the Tanking nerf. Learned how to work around it. The multiple moves of the end game level were dealt with also. I absolutely think the battle leveled open world concept has ruined the progressive nature of the game. This latest fiasco as announced may kill the game. ZOS has basically declared war on Templar healers. By nerfing their skills and making the new Warden class the go to for healing, it seems like they are trying to force people to buy Morrowind to be able to continue to take part in trials and Vet Dungeons as a healer. When the game was released, it followed the standard group formula. Tank (DK), DPS (Sorc and NB), Healer (Temp). DK's could be used for DPS, but their real strength was Tanking. In their constant quest for "balance" ZOS has seriously damaged a game that by its nature can't be balanced across the board. This latest and most blatant cash grab by ZOS may be the beginning of the end of ESO. In the end the responsibility falls on Matt Fiore since all the changes have taken place on his watch as Game Director.

Jacozilla wrote: »

I did not use combat dummy, I used what I consider to be 'real world' scenario that has enough consistency that if you average enough runs together, you get reasonably meaningful data. Also did not switch to adaptive build - wanted to keep changes as small as possible.

The only change between live vs. PTS builds/gear is obviously the CP that is no longer available to take. Have noted it below. Only CP 406 so I represent an 'avg' player - not noob, not max 600.

Keyword = reasonable. I am not implying this is decimal place precise nor absolutely consistent, just averaged over 6 runs each. Reasonable.

All info below using my main Breton - Magsorc
Gear: switched to 'reasonable' gear any player, any experience should be able to get with whatever we want to call as relative ease:
Julianos 5pc + Torug 3pc + Willpower jewelry set
Armor all gold, jewelry purple
Gold Glyphs: armor all +mag, jewelry +spell dmg

Build: Double destro, non-pet build, using inner light + aegis for ~40.5k magika pool, with 868 mag recovery including vamp bonus
Mainbar: standard force pulse, frags, inner light, aegis, power surge
Backbar: aoe skills -> elemental aoe + liquid aoe, inner light, aegis, hardened ward

Methodology - started digital timer on first initiation of combat by attacking trash mob closest to me from same spot, same nirncrux mine in all runs. Timed each to completion with boss falling dead after the 3 trash waves plus pre boss wave.

1- Live server, (6) runs averaged on Nirncrux mine - beating all trash + boss = 2min, 20sec

2-PTS server, (6) runs averaged on Nirncrux mine - beating all trash + boss = 4min, 31 sec

Other observations: used same blue food as current live meta, only changed standard DPS cp from usual meta to replace mag recovery no longer in the green tree
Had 135 points to spend in green tree so instead of former magician, took 100 points in arcanist to max out 15% mag recovery + remaining 35 points into tenacity to boost heavy attack mag recovery

On live, my mag bar never dropped below ~65-70%, and as standard with usual max dps burst rotation, swapped only to aoe bar to refresh aoes, and kept blasting away with main bar pulse + frags on proc only usual dps roation. Was never in any serious danger, hp never got hit and could spam wards all day.

On PTS, the world was not ending, saying this is not tolerable is hysterical over reaction...BUT -- my magika pool was always on near dry after the ~1-2 min mark, I was chugging mag potions like crazy soon as cooldown came up, and I was 95% of time on backbar using constant lightning staff heavy attack between aoe refreshes. Almost no switching to main bar to pump up dps because heavy attack was only thing keeping me alive to get mag back to refresh my ward

Reminder - I am not doing this in BiS gear, I am using the 'standard' gear that any non-trials person can get, and hopefully therefore reflect what I think the average player should experience. I know I can replace glyphs, put ele drain on my bar, etc. I was just doing this live v PTS tests of 6 runs each to get a baseline , that is all.

So please no attacks why I wasn't using X skill, or why not drinking witchmothers brew - I will do ALL that when Morrow launches. I just wanted to see if I kept to as close a 'dps' build as I had on live, what the effect would be.

My conclusion is it nearly doubled (bit more) my solo time to beat nirncrux. The good news is I did not die. I was never in any actual serious danger of dying. So conclusions:

#1 - we all know overland is cake walk. So if the baseline is affected at least to degree I am nearly drained dry on mag pool of 40.5k with vamp + standard setup recovery of 868, and thankfully destro passive of 3.6k mag recovery on kill with destro skill is still there (that's frankly all that kept me in the recovery game) then I conclude two takes at this time

It is guilty of exaggeration to say we can not adapt to this. Given I did these with zero adjustments to build, drink, glyph, etc - the world will not end. I also did not use ANY sorc sustain that I know will be debated as needs more nerf, too OP, whatever - no conversion used on bar. I basically did this as close to a mag build of any class as possible.

However, if I'm being this drained on what was formerly cake walk overland encounter like nirncrux mine, I can see how upper end trials is going to be affected, even with group buffs.

Theory - by changing my spell dmg jewelry glyphs, by adding ~300 more recovery with witchmother, and switching torug 3pc to seducer 3pc, I am quite sure will be able to adapt. Will be bit slower to kill, but I guess that is what ZOS wants, to have us give up some time to kill to manage sustain.

But it does not live up to their 'we want it to be fast action game' because the new sustain management = lot longer encounters for anything that isn't a 5 sec burst fight. I am hopeful some of these nerfs will be scaled back some. I can live with some, and as said, admit can adapt to what they have now.

But it is LESS FUN. That is the bottom line.

Not end of the world. Not hysterical over reaction that as base mag dps (using no sorc unique skill without a counterpart other than possibly liquid lightning on my bar), but just LESS FUN.

So I hope ZOS sees and reads this thread. I admit your new changes are livable in terms of adapting to them. But in your grand design, in your quest for constant over turning of established character norms, someone seems to not have measured the FUN factor because no matter how much I admit these changes are adaptable...it sure as hell isn't as much fun as before.

@Jacozilla This... Is it fun? That is the important question to ask.

A number of friends and I took a little time off from the game just before 1T. We all came back in January. To give you a bit of background, we were not vMOL folks, but all solid players; Stormproof, No Death WGT/ICP achievements, trials, etc. The first thing we all ran together, granted with "old meta" gear, was vVoM because that was one of our favorites and we looked forward to a vet version. The first thing we all noticed was the increased resist and health of enemies. The last boss in particular was PAINFUL! This was not the case because it was difficult, it was just soooooo slow!

The mechanics do not get any easier, get out of the middle or into the middle depending on the visual, and I chained in adds as the tank. Simple. We are all good players, so those mechanics are a cakewalk. But with our outdated builds and specs, it took an excessive amount of time to kill the boss. Now, because we are all good players, we researched and tested best builds and farmed gear. As a group we can smash that boss very quickly, in what I believe is not an unreasonable amount of time for four solid players wearing best gear and using best rotation.

Here is my point after all of that lol: arguments can be made for lowering the ceiling, no doubt about it, but if it just increases the length of fights in outdated content, what is the point, and more importantly, is it fun? Unless ZOS were overhauling old dungeon fights to add mechanics and make them more interesting, they are really not doing anything but making these fights more difficult for your average PuG. My buddies and I will still smash the original dungeons with new setups, albeit while talking about the heyday of doing it faster, and PuGs will sill struggle.

Is it fun?