Re: Sorc Shields

Malamar1229 · April 2017

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore or at the very least be difficult to achieve without building for it at the expense of dmg. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Derra · April 2017

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Magıc · April 2017

What Derra said.

@Neighbor

Derra · April 2017

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

SirMewser · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Personally wished that they reverted harness magicka to only work defensively against spells, not everything needs to be monotonous.

psychotic13 · April 2017

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Thank you for addressing this to all the idiots who are making thread after thread about sorc shields, they are clueless

Izaki · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

^^^^^^^^This OMG so much this.

I've wanted for Dark Deal to be this since DB.

Dracane · April 2017

The crying about shields is in fact unjustified.
I also have to agree though, that harness magicka's magicka return should be reduced and the dark deal morph of dark exchange could use some adjustments as well.

Biro123 · April 2017

And don't forget about that new damage cp star, adding more damage to shields, which means having to put CP's into its counter, which means less available to spend in bastion.
The days of sorcs running with 100 bastion are over.

Not to mention the need for sustain sets will mean many builds having less Max mag, and therefore smaller shields.

Dracane · April 2017

Exactly and all that kept in mind, you understand why Zenimax decided to keep Bastion at 25% and it was a good decision.

Xvorg · April 2017

So, I suppose the res regen nerf only affects sorcs spamming shields and not classes actually using skills to bring them down, right?

Because, to put down a shield you need to use resources too.

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passive makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Biro123 · April 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

So, I suppose the res regen nerf only affects sorcs spamming shields and not classes actually using skills to bring them down, right?

Because, to put down a shield you need to use resources too.

Aye, and once out of resources and your both flailing at each other with heavy attacks, I wonder if it will be the no-impen, light-armour sorc that walks away from it.

Dracane · April 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passively makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Good argument. Afterall, maintaining shields requires active work and micromanagement and once they are down, you are punished with greater squishiness. If you want to provide yourself the necessary sustain, you will need light armor and most likely divine traits in order to improve the atronach stone, every little bit helps. So you are definately dead meat once your health gets touched..

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2017

Kinda awkward when the people you tagged said different things than you

Dracane · April 2017

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Kinda awkward when the people you tagged said different things than you

We agree with him. But we also point to certain things that need to be adjusted, harness magicka for example.

usmcjdking · April 2017

psychotic13 wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Thank you for addressing this to all the idiots who are making thread after thread about sorc shields, they are clueless

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passively makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Good argument. Afterall, maintaining shields requires active work and micromanagement and once they are down, you are punished with greater squishiness. If you want to provide yourself the necessary sustain, you will need light armor and most likely divine traits in order to improve the atronach stone, every little bit helps. So you are definately dead meat once your health gets touched..

Shields do not take any micromanagement lol.

Malamar1229 · April 2017

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Kinda awkward when the people you tagged said different things than you

No body said Harness was perfect. I don't think there a single sorc out there that thinks Harness is fine. I just said it's harder to stack. And I don't think anyone said anything difference than I did...

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Thank you for addressing this to all the idiots who are making thread after thread about sorc shields, they are clueless

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passively makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Good argument. Afterall, maintaining shields requires active work and micromanagement and once they are down, you are punished with greater squishiness. If you want to provide yourself the necessary sustain, you will need light armor and most likely divine traits in order to improve the atronach stone, every little bit helps. So you are definately dead meat once your health gets touched..

Shields do not take any micromanagement lol.

In the PTS they do. Hardened + Healing = 9k

Dracane · April 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Thank you for addressing this to all the idiots who are making thread after thread about sorc shields, they are clueless

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passively makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Good argument. Afterall, maintaining shields requires active work and micromanagement and once they are down, you are punished with greater squishiness. If you want to provide yourself the necessary sustain, you will need light armor and most likely divine traits in order to improve the atronach stone, every little bit helps. So you are definately dead meat once your health gets touched..

Shields do not take any micromanagement lol.

Of course they do O.o Maybe micromanagement is not the perfect word for it. But yes

Minalan · April 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I want to address the plebs still crying about sorc shields. This is not a secret and will become common knowledge in a matter of weeks anyway so my fella sorcs need not hate on me.

Sorc shields are nerfed presently to a much greater degree than most of you realize:

1) Sustaining by means of stacking harness over hardened is not going to work anymore. Top that with the Siphoner CP passive/poisons makes spam stacking much harder.

2) CP are now front loaded as outlined in the PTS notes. This means most players will be running around with like 10% in shattering blows.

3) Hardy and Elemental Defender values were reduced to 15% with 100 points invested into them. This is more damage getting through to shields.

Obviously in a NO CP environment these points won't be as huge an impact. So it is my early prediction well probably see more sorcs in Battlegrounds/Azuras than you will in CP enabled environments. Building for sustain to support shields (since light armor offers no damage mitigation) means another nerf to damage as well.

Here's a few tags for support, @Lord_Hev @Derra @Hexys @RinaldoGandolphi @Minalan @Dracane

Thank you for addressing this to all the idiots who are making thread after thread about sorc shields, they are clueless

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We´re still going to need adjustment for harness returns.

ZOS stated that resource returns based on pools were undesireable in their design philosophy - which is exactly what harness still does.
Give harness a fixed magica return.

Derra wrote: »

Furthermore i think dark deal/conversion should see some kind of rework - but not simply on the numbers instead i´d suggest a mechanical change:

Convert ONLY the resource return into an over time type of mechanic - returning the resources over 6 to 10s. That way it could no longer be spammed for excessive resource gains in short amounts of time but would still be a possible heal.

Excellent suggestions @Derra

I agree with @Dracane

I personally have thought that shield stacking was too OP for quite some time, but with these recent sustain nerfs I think if you can maintain shield stacking then you should be rewarded with its effectiveness. Also keep Bastion at 25%. Investing into that passively makes you very weak when those shields are down, and therefore we shouldn't punish those that want to polarize their defenses by investing into this passive.

Good argument. Afterall, maintaining shields requires active work and micromanagement and once they are down, you are punished with greater squishiness. If you want to provide yourself the necessary sustain, you will need light armor and most likely divine traits in order to improve the atronach stone, every little bit helps. So you are definately dead meat once your health gets touched..

Shields do not take any micromanagement lol.

Actually they do.

First. You can't just keep spamming a full stack anymore anytime you feel like it. So you have to know which shield you cast last, and know which one is taking damage now that needs to be refreshed. Refreshing a back shield that isn't being chewed on is a waste you can't afford.

Lastly. Healing ward is expensive, so you're not going to put it up until you have enough damage taken to justify it. If you have 80% health, it's better to let surge or entropy top up your health instead of being stupid with heal ward.

In the current game there's no thought involved in either of those cases. Morrowind is a completely different game. Good Sorcs are going to do great. The shield spamming baddies will be OOM and dead - then complain that ZOS wrecked the game:

Beardimus · April 2017

@Malamar1229 you Sir are a breath of fresh air. I came here expecting more Ward hate and find an articulate explanation that may help people understand the difficulties with Active defenses

Have an Awesome x 10

Thank you

Derra · April 2017

It´s gonna be funny anyways when people realize stamina and magica wardens offer better delayed burst than sorcs do.

Underground assault, bird, charge, puncture (procsetofyourliking here) - literally everything hits at the same time - 1 hit no stealth needed.

Magica works the same way but takes a little more work/skill to execute with heavyattack - but potentially even more deadly with fire knockback and the delay on breaking.

Beardimus · April 2017

Additionally i dont get the recent uplift in ward hate. U13 brought a few extra scamp pulses and a ln extra curse explosion and the #SorcHaters kick off about wards again.

All the decent players counter round wards the same now as they did in 2016. And I guess the people that couldn't kill sorcs then still cant

I digress, but epic most man.

Derra · April 2017

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Kinda awkward when the people you tagged said different things than you

We agree with him - that does not mean we can´t add things that still need attention on our subjective opinion.

The sorc shield (meaning hardened ward) is not the problem imo.

Dracane · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna be funny anyways when people realize stamina and magica wardens offer better delayed burst than sorcs do.

Underground assault, bird, charge, puncture (procsetofyourliking here) - literally everything hits at the same time - 1 hit no stealth needed.

Magica works the same way but takes a little more work/skill to execute with heavyattack - but potentially even more deadly with fire knockback and the delay on breaking.

The Bird is truly overperforming. Compare it to force pulse and forsake. it's better in every single aspect.

Izaki · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna be funny anyways when people realize stamina and magica wardens offer better delayed burst than sorcs do.

Underground assault, bird, charge, puncture (procsetofyourliking here) - literally everything hits at the same time - 1 hit no stealth needed.

Magica works the same way but takes a little more work/skill to execute with heavyattack - but potentially even more deadly with fire knockback and the delay on breaking.

The underground assault isn't targeted though, so it will be pretty tough to line up for it to hit on a ranged build IMHO.

Derra · April 2017

meh - edit

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna be funny anyways when people realize stamina and magica wardens offer better delayed burst than sorcs do.

Underground assault, bird, charge, puncture (procsetofyourliking here) - literally everything hits at the same time - 1 hit no stealth needed.

Magica works the same way but takes a little more work/skill to execute with heavyattack - but potentially even more deadly with fire knockback and the delay on breaking.

The Bird is truly overperforming. Compare it to force pulse and forsake. it's better in every single aspect.

Being undodgeable is ridiculous IMO. It's easy to dodge? So is frags, so is overload, so is uppercut, so is snipe, so is Dark Flare, so is the spectral bow from Grim Focus.

So what makes the Warden special?

Malamar1229 · April 2017

Hey uh remember this is in the public PTS section and not the morrowwind closed section....

continue

RinaldoGandolphi · April 2017

Yes,

Shields overall will take more damage because of the CP tree changes and how hard diminishing returns are on specific trees.

Harness Magicka could maybe use a very slight adjustment on its Magicka return, but we must be careful remember they already nerfed the return once before back in 1.6 changing it from absorbing till the shield was gone to only 3 times...maybe changing it to 2 times would be acceptable.

Sorcs benefited the most from uncapped stats and ironically suffers the most from the sustain changes. Since the class is required to refresh a shield every 5 seconds or die due to light armor offering literally no protection at all because of sharpened trait being way overtuned, Sorcs are even more forced into sustain sets then other classes.

How things look on paper and how things work in practice are two totally different things. Sorc is not the top class despite what the paper might appear to say. The numbers say otherwise. This will become apparent within a few weeks.