@geonsocal Game experience counts for a lot too. That is how most people theorycraft and in general they get it right. My attempt is sort of going the other way around and starting from theory to derive what to do. This is a more time consuming approach but allows for more quantification rather than just this set is quite good but it's not too clear how much better it is.
@montiferus, Were you using http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/CPOptimisation/CPOptimisation.html#? It should work. Sometimes the host breaks down since it is a free host. What problems did you run into?
@caperon
Actually, I can sort of answer your question. What I did was to set up the stats as you described
Frontbar: 2 illambris , 4 moondancer, 5 bsw (inferno bsw staff)
Backabr: 2 illambris, 4 BSW, 5 moondacer (inferno moondancer staff)
But then I gave the Frontbar the 5p bonus of Moondancer as well. So this allows every synergy the chance to activate Moondancer. The mean DPS was 43616 with a SD of 1560. SD of setups using Moondancer tend to be high due to the nature of the five piece bonus.
@Asayre really great work! Is there a point(max magicka 53k+) where infused outshines divines on big pieces?
thank you!
Thank you very much for all the efforts. I can imagine how many hours of work went in there!
The findings in terms of gear are pretty similar to the findings I derived from my spreadsheet, at least for the Sorcerer class. I also found that the theoretically perfect weaving dmg is a lot higher than the observed values and that perfect weavig can make a bigger difference than the gear.
The only class that is a bit more complicated to approach in terms of gear and weapon choice is the templar class. In my spreadsheets there are 2 setups that are rather close to each other:
Setup 1:
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 5 Moondancer (dual wield swords) and MSA inferno
Bars:
Dual wield: Radiant Destruction, Puncturing Sweeps, Reflective Light, [filler], Inner Light, Meteor
MSA Inferno: Wall of Elements, Blazing Spear, Purifiying light, Rearming Trap, Inner Light, Meteor
Setup 2
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 4 aether (lightning), MSA inferno
Lightning: Puncturing Sweeps, Reflective Light, Rearming Trap, [filler], Inner Light, Meteor
MSA Inferno: Wall of Elements, Blazing Spear, Purifiying light, Radiant Destruction, Inner Light, Meteor
Skill prio: Rearming Trap >> Wall of Elements >> Purifiying Light >> Blazing Spear >> Reflective Light >> Radiant Destruction (30% ?) >> Puncturing Sweeps
It might be useful to make a limit for the dots of 25% health, so below that only radiant and maybe trap will be casted.
One could debate about using unstable wall instead of wall of elements but thats a small detail and not templar specific. The result will highly depend on the weaving error. The basic question when comparing these 2 is: Can good weaving with 2 staffs outperform the lower weaving dmg from dual wield and the additional set bonus you get?
Would be interesting to see if the new staff passives can break the templar dual wield meta (and the endless grind to get these swords).
If you don't have the time to run the simulations, send me a message.
Thank you for running the simulations!Thank you very much for all the efforts. I can imagine how many hours of work went in there!
The findings in terms of gear are pretty similar to the findings I derived from my spreadsheet, at least for the Sorcerer class. I also found that the theoretically perfect weaving dmg is a lot higher than the observed values and that perfect weavig can make a bigger difference than the gear.
The only class that is a bit more complicated to approach in terms of gear and weapon choice is the templar class. In my spreadsheets there are 2 setups that are rather close to each other:
Setup 1:
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 5 Moondancer (dual wield swords) and MSA inferno
Bars:
Dual wield: Radiant Destruction, Puncturing Sweeps, Reflective Light, [filler], Inner Light, Meteor
MSA Inferno: Wall of Elements, Blazing Spear, Purifiying light, Rearming Trap, Inner Light, Meteor
Setup 2
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 4 aether (lightning), MSA inferno
Lightning: Puncturing Sweeps, Reflective Light, Rearming Trap, [filler], Inner Light, Meteor
MSA Inferno: Wall of Elements, Blazing Spear, Purifiying light, Radiant Destruction, Inner Light, Meteor
Skill prio: Rearming Trap >> Wall of Elements >> Purifiying Light >> Blazing Spear >> Reflective Light >> Radiant Destruction (30% ?) >> Puncturing Sweeps
It might be useful to make a limit for the dots of 25% health, so below that only radiant and maybe trap will be casted.
One could debate about using unstable wall instead of wall of elements but thats a small detail and not templar specific. The result will highly depend on the weaving error. The basic question when comparing these 2 is: Can good weaving with 2 staffs outperform the lower weaving dmg from dual wield and the additional set bonus you get?
Would be interesting to see if the new staff passives can break the templar dual wield meta (and the endless grind to get these swords).
If you don't have the time to run the simulations, send me a message.
I did a slight variant of your question
Setup 1
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 5 Moondancer and VMA Inferno
A synergy event was provided every 15 seconds and it would only synergise if it did not have the Moondancer Spell Damage buff. The average uptime of the Moondancer Spell Damage buff is
Bar setup
1: Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweeps, Purifying Light, Reflective Light, Inner Light, Shooting Star
2: Blockade of Fire, Empty, Radiant Oppression, Channeled Focus, Inner Light, Fiery Rage
Skill rotation was
Shooting Star > Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Blazing Spear > Reflective Light > Radiant Oppression > Puncturing Sweep
The mean DPS for this setup was 36617 with a SD of 697.
Setup 2
2 Grothdarr, 5 BSW, 4 Moondancer (Lightning), VMA Inferno
Bar setup
1: Shock Clench, Puncturing Sweeps, Purifying Light, Reflective Light, Inner Light, Shooting Star
2: Blockade of Fire, Blazing Spear, Radiant Oppression, Channeled Focus, Inner Light, Fiery Rage
Skill rotation was
Shooting Star > Purifying Light > Shock Clench > Blockade of Fire > Blazing Spear > Reflective Light > Radiant Oppression > Puncturing Sweeps
The mean DPS for this setup was 39566 with a SD of 840.
For a single target fight, like in this simulation, it is advantageous to not use Shock Clench, Blazing Spear and Reflective Light.
I started Radiant at 15% and stopped all DoTs at 15% this is in accordance to previous calculations. My simulations tend to have low magicka at the end that's why I chose a low threshold to start Radiant. I ran simulations with different Radiant thresholds and found that 15% is roughly right.
While I don't have limits of my magicka going negative in the simulation, I limit the minimum magicka multiplier for Radiant Oppression to 1.
In summary, I found that good weaving with a lightning staff (Setup 2: Mean DPS 39566) will outperform the extra damage and set bonus from dual wielding (Setup 1: Mean DPS 36617). As an extra, I ran simulations with 50% and 25% of LAs occuring for any ability and got a mean DPS of 38677 and 36799, respectively.
Edit note for OP
I’ve updated the sorcerer calculations because there was a simulation error that resulted in all DPS simulations to be overestimated by around 2k. The error was because sometimes x-x ~ 1e-15 which leads to some abilities triggering twice. I had previously rounded most of these into 0 but I forgot to in one particular section causing an overestimate in the DPS.
Edit:
I also managed to reduce my simulation time from ~15 minutes to ~5 minutes by increasing my RAM from 8 to 12 GB. I don't know why my simulation time when down but it did...
Thank you for running the simulations!
The setup with the dual wield will loose a lot of dmg in practice because you need to have a aedric spear ability on each bar for the 10% crit passive. I guess you did not implement it like that?
Is there a reason why you did not use trap?
The best results would be reached with Guard on both bars, but that's impossible to play in most raids.
Unfortunately I still don't have the swords for testing it but I got some decent results with the lightning staff setup. You could consider keeping the wall of elements up all the time in order to keep BSW uptimes high.
Since we found that weaving can make a big difference we could try another setup with 2 Grothdarr, 5 Julianos, 5 Moondancer, VMA Lightning frontbar:
Dual wield: radiant, blazing spear, trap, empty, inner light, meteor
Lightning: wall of elements, sweeps, purifiying light, reflective light, meteor/destro ulti
I'm just curious - did anyone run this for other weapons? I'm wondering how this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324665/twilight-force-magicka-templar-magicka-nightblade-ranged-vma-dd-build-homestead-ready compares to mainstream builds, including the solo setting.
IcyDeadPeople wrote: »Just to confirm, it sounds like if the target has some resistances then 8% Minor Vulnerability debuff on the target results in significantly higher damage than 8% Minor Berserk buff on me, correct?
@mr_wazzabi
I have simulated using Volatile Familiar in place of Inner Light and the results are promising. With 2 Ilambris, 5 Necropotence, 3/4 Moondancer and a Maelstrom staff on the backbar the mean DPS is 42775 compared to 42082 with the usual no pet rotation (2 Ilambris, 5 BSW, 3/4 Moondancer, Maelstrom backbar). But I'm still not a fan of the difficulty in controlling a pet also my pet died several times in Ruins of Mazzatun =(
@GilGalad
I believe the 10% fire damage taken from Engulfing Flames is additive with Minor Vulnerability.
@mr_wazzabi
I have simulated using Volatile Familiar in place of Inner Light and the results are promising. With 2 Ilambris, 5 Necropotence, 3/4 Moondancer and a Maelstrom staff on the backbar the mean DPS is 42775 compared to 42082 with the usual no pet rotation (2 Ilambris, 5 BSW, 3/4 Moondancer, Maelstrom backbar). But I'm still not a fan of the difficulty in controlling a pet also my pet died several times in Ruins of Mazzatun =(
@GilGalad
I believe the 10% fire damage taken from Engulfing Flames is additive with Minor Vulnerability.
I'm just curious - did anyone run this for other weapons? I'm wondering how this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/324665/twilight-force-magicka-templar-magicka-nightblade-ranged-vma-dd-build-homestead-ready compares to mainstream builds, including the solo setting.
I had a quick browse of that link and tried to simulate it.
Gear
2 Ilambris, 5 Spinner, 3 Infallible with a Infallible Inferno front bar (Charged) and a Maelstrom Lightning (Ninrhoned) on backbar.
The skill priority I used was
Skill rotation was
Thunderous Rage > Blockade of Storms > Ritual of Retribution > Reflective Light > Radiant Oppression* > Force Pulse
Radiant Oppression starts at 15% and all other DoTs are stopped at 15%. For the bars I assumed that you have an Aedric Spear on the back bar.
I'm not a 100% sure how charged works so for the simulation I just assumes that it is multiplicative with Ancient Knowledge. I applied the Charge trait to both bars as I don't have the proper structure to have Charged affect one bar only. While Concussion is implemented in the simulation I have yet to put in off-balance yet so I just gave a constant 10% increased damage to simulate a target being Off-balance all the time. Contrary to the guide, I light attack weave with every skill instead of medium attack weave
The mean DPS for this setup was 34375 with a SD of 674. Minor Vulnerability uptime was 74% with a SD of 9.6%. Maybe my simulations are missing something from this unusual build. But I don't have the parts to test further discrepancies between my simulation and that build.