Guilds as safe spaces

obscure7 · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

The poll isn't nauanced enough.

It depends on the type of guild.
If the guild is a group of like minded individuals particularly if it is a group of real life friends or people from similar backgrounds. That is an exclusive guild it has a purpose for those friends to hang out together. You can speak "freely" because everyone basically agrees, for good or ill.

But if you guild wants to be inclusive, that is attract as many different players as it can then it needs to be respectful of people of different backgrounds feelings or it risks losing members. In a simlar way most large companies are in favor of inclusivity. If I needs donations for its store, if It needs good traders, if it needs active players for dungeons and trails it cannot be pushing people away.

I'd much perfer people go to guild chats to be terrible people than zone chat. Since this game needs players so it needs to be as inclusive as possible and terrible zone chat people can push away players.

I think the most important thing is how you handle being called out for percieved terrible behavour is the most important thing. I mean sometimes you can be mistakenly inappropraite or misjudge a crowd, it is going to happen. The "Am I being inappropraite?, No! it is minorities that are wrong" type response is the wrong way to go about it. It is your chance to learn something about other people rather than being angry someone made you feel bad about your behaviour.

I think both sides of this arguement is actually the same thing, just from two different perspectives. One person wants a safe space to be what the other sees are inappropraite and the other wants a safe space from people that are innappropraite. When one side gets angry because they have been made to feel bad the other side gets angry that the other side made them feel bad. The only difference is your perspective.

Sorry, I didn't want to have too many gray areas. Polls with an abundance of options tend to lose value in my opinion.

You're asking a gray area question with a yes/no option. That's why it's weird.

Molydeus · March 2017

obscure7 wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

The poll isn't nauanced enough.

It depends on the type of guild.
If the guild is a group of like minded individuals particularly if it is a group of real life friends or people from similar backgrounds. That is an exclusive guild it has a purpose for those friends to hang out together. You can speak "freely" because everyone basically agrees, for good or ill.

But if you guild wants to be inclusive, that is attract as many different players as it can then it needs to be respectful of people of different backgrounds feelings or it risks losing members. In a simlar way most large companies are in favor of inclusivity. If I needs donations for its store, if It needs good traders, if it needs active players for dungeons and trails it cannot be pushing people away.

I'd much perfer people go to guild chats to be terrible people than zone chat. Since this game needs players so it needs to be as inclusive as possible and terrible zone chat people can push away players.

I think the most important thing is how you handle being called out for percieved terrible behavour is the most important thing. I mean sometimes you can be mistakenly inappropraite or misjudge a crowd, it is going to happen. The "Am I being inappropraite?, No! it is minorities that are wrong" type response is the wrong way to go about it. It is your chance to learn something about other people rather than being angry someone made you feel bad about your behaviour.

I think both sides of this arguement is actually the same thing, just from two different perspectives. One person wants a safe space to be what the other sees are inappropraite and the other wants a safe space from people that are innappropraite. When one side gets angry because they have been made to feel bad the other side gets angry that the other side made them feel bad. The only difference is your perspective.

Sorry, I didn't want to have too many gray areas. Polls with an abundance of options tend to lose value in my opinion.

You're asking a gray area question with a yes/no option. That's why it's weird.

I asked a clear yes/no question and provided two clear yes/no options to chose from so I could receive a clear yes/no answer. There is a third option for people who don't care. If you don't like the current poll options then abstain.

Enslaved · March 2017

If I would feel restrained in my guild, I would leave asap. That is the good thing about small guilds, we don't have any problems to speak freely and if someone gets offended I can buy them drink later.

DragonBound · March 2017

The key to life is things in moderation when we do things in extreme there is a reason why certain things are just offensive, just because mainstream comedians do it does not mean it is not offensive, and sorry to say it but mainstream relies on dark and twisted cheapness vs clever humor so in the end people think its normal because of that.

Foxic · March 2017

It all depends on the guild, ours has a a guild chat that alot of people cant handle. We allow you to say just about anything you could want, but if you are fighting in guild chat we ask them to take it to whispers.

I know how to act accordingly in our other guild chats, but the idea that some people think every guild theyre in should cater to their chat preferences is absurd.

TLDR i embrace toxicity and extremely dark humor in my guild chat, but know that isnt accepted everywhere

Artis · March 2017

There are guilds that specifically say they safe spaces for certain types. That guild was not one of them. There are no rule that you can't talk or joke or be silly about pretty much anything, besides it wasn't directed against anyone in particular.

But as I told you, you should understand, in large guilds all 500 members can't agree on everything. It is normal that someone might not like something. They asked you guys to stop, but it wasn't the Guild that censored you. Already had similar complaints and told them - it's not a safe space. Sure, if there was some personal conflict or like a serious argument, that could be stopped, but in that case - it wasn't anything serious.

Again, these conversations can be happening when no one from the leadership is online or when no one from the people who get offended is online, in the first case - no one can stop you, in the second case - no one will complain. But you should understand that among 500 members there might be someone who can ask you to stop. In this case it wasn't even disrespectful if I remember correctly. And either way - you were not restrained by a guild

Specifics aside, in general I'm for the option 1 (or 3). There are different people, not everyone will agree - it's normal. But the freedom of speech doesn't end where someone's feelings begin. There can always be situations where 1 person doesn't feel comfortable, that doesn't mean others are restrained. They could be nice to that one person and not continue the topic (while that person is online XD). Either way, unless it's an official guild rule that you can't talk about X and that rule is being enforced - I don't think you should leave a big guild if someone disagrees with you. It's a part of being in a guild with other people.

Turelus · March 2017

I've played in a corp on EVE Online for years where we've never had issues because everyone knew the limits and what was acceptable.
We didn't have less fun because of it, we didn't feel our world views were diminished for it etc. we enjoyed the game, were good at the game and had great friendships.

I tried to carry the same over to ESO when I ran a guild here however and ended up being branded "killjoy" and "totalitarian" because I didn't want people discussing vulgar sex acts, or politics within guild chat.

Free speech and speaking your mind is fine, but I don't think an MMO is the place for that. If you want to debate politics or brag about how much sex you get then go to a forums dedicated to that and talk to others who want to talk about it.
Many people just want to log in, have a laugh about in game silly things that happen and relax away from the current issues in their lives or the world, let them have that escape.

Saturnana · March 2017

Didn't vote because my choice isn't up there.

I feel as though guilds should be a fairly safe place for users to hang out in-game. I mean, if they're not, what's the point of being part of one right? We don't join them just to get ourselves extra close to the trolls. To keep things fun, the guilds might have some rules on what not to do in chat etc. (and having those is fine) but for the most part these people monitor themselves in my experience. As long as everyone keeps the 'do as you would be done by' in mind, things generally work out. And if you are set on having big, meaningful discussions on scary adult topics that could make others uncomfortable or queasy, then you can always move those to your guild Teamspeak/Discord server.

Also, if you're uncomfortable in your guild at the end of the day, for whatever reason, leave and find a new one that does fit you!

Guilds should be fun to be a part of, not nerve wrecking.

Molydeus · March 2017

Artis wrote: »

There are guilds that specifically say they safe spaces for certain types. That guild was not one of them. There are no rule that you can't talk or joke or be silly about pretty much anything, besides it wasn't directed against anyone in particular.

But as I told you, you should understand, in large guilds all 500 members can't agree on everything. It is normal that someone might not like something. They asked you guys to stop, but it wasn't the Guild that censored you. Already had similar complaints and told them - it's not a safe space. Sure, if there was some personal conflict or like a serious argument, that could be stopped, but in that case - it wasn't anything serious.

Again, these conversations can be happening when no one from the leadership is online or when no one from the people who get offended is online, in the first case - no one can stop you, in the second case - no one will complain. But you should understand that among 500 members there might be someone who can ask you to stop. In this case it wasn't even disrespectful if I remember correctly. And either way - you were not restrained by a guild

Specifics aside, in general I'm for the option 1 (or 3). There are different people, not everyone will agree - it's normal. But the freedom of speech doesn't end where someone's feelings begin. There can always be situations where 1 person doesn't feel comfortable, that doesn't mean others are restrained. They could be nice to that one person and not continue the topic (while that person is online XD). Either way, unless it's an official guild rule that you can't talk about X and that rule is being enforced - I don't think you should leave a big guild if someone disagrees with you. It's a part of being in a guild with other people.

Edit:

This topic isn't about me.

Since you brought it up though--I left because I didn't think your guild was the right home, not because anyone asked me to leave. Someone was offended by the lighthearted conversation we were having so we promptly stopped out of respect. There's nothing more to it. I thought about it and left a while afterwards after deciding the guild wasn't a good fit for me. I did it quietly and did not rage, and I left on good terms with the offended party.

If you have anything more to say on the subject please keep it private and send me more ingame mail or a PM. Let's keep this a generalized poll, not a blog.

RapidUrsa · March 2017

This is the Internet, what do you expect! If you want a "safe space" steer clear of chat.

Molydeus · March 2017

lnsane wrote: »

Also, if you're uncomfortable in your guild at the end of the day, for whatever reason, leave and find a new one that does fit you!
Guilds should be fun to be a part of, not nerve wrecking.

I like this answer.

Runschei · March 2017

It really depends on the guild and what guildies I see active in the chat.

Jimbullbee85 · March 2017

Even the nicest of people can't keep everyone happy. What makes a good social guild is a strong and fair guild master that sets the boundaries and ensures that everyone follows them. One guild I'm in had problems with kids and teens acting up (pretty abusive some of them) so the gaffer put a probation rank in place to keep them in check. Doesn't always work but at least there's a stage of punishment before they get kicked out.

Gothlander · March 2017

How can text on a monitor screen hurt your feelings in a video game?

Voxicity · March 2017

My guild members are free to discuss anything they want in chat. As long as it's not bullying or something similar. Pretty much everything else goes as far as I'm concerned

colig · March 2017

I err towards the blue option because I listen to enough nonsense in real life.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

I'll share with you a secret . If you talk about things in a positive way , you get happy conversations . If you give respect you make respectful and very helpful friends . If you are kind , you are more often treated with kindness . Why would anyone want to be negative and attract negativity is so beyond me . It's like people that enjoy paying for spankings from professional spankers . You could keep your money and buy something nice without the sore bottom . Freedom to say what ever you want should only come if there is freedom for everyone to react they way they want to your free speech . Everyome is for freedom except when it comes to freedom to get your butt kicked without calling a police officer . When everyone removes assault from the law books then I'll be pro freedom of speech .

Euant · March 2017

The idea that ANY form of communication won't come with a set of social standards to adhere to is flawed. Even when you're interacting 1 on 1 with someone there's still an unwritten code based on known shared experiences and characteristics that you only know you've broken when the other person tells you.

Assuming that any online community is going to hold to any social standards is even moreso flawed. I think the OP is taking how one person acted and trying to apply their one personal experience to a whole game's worth of people.

Most guilds describe what their general social code is (family friendly, mature, casual, active, etc) so any guild that doesn't therefore doesn't have a specific one.

Overall I'm unsure what this topic is looking to accomplish.

Khenarthi · March 2017

I have left guilds, in the past, that made me uncomfortable. It's not a matter of feeling "triggered" or "offended", but my spare time is too precious to spend it on drama, or reading conversations which do not interest me at all.

In fact, for 4 out of the 5 guilds I'm in, I have been a member for 2 years at least because they are focused on being friendly, helpful, and keeping chat clean (the 5th spot is currently occupied by a trading guild I joined 2 weeks ago, so far so good).

ralvdlindenpeb18_ESO · March 2017

This is hard because you need a guild so around 300/400 people with the same humor ..... the guild i am in is more a info guild we dont talk mutch or something like that ... i really want to have a second guild

Molydeus · March 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll share with you a secret . If you talk about things in a positive way , you get happy conversations . If you give respect you make respectful and very helpful friends . If you are kind , you are more often treated with kindness . Why would anyone want to be negative and attract negativity is so beyond me . It's like people that enjoy paying for spankings from professional spankers . You could keep your money and buy something nice without the sore bottom . Freedom to say what ever you want should only come if there is freedom for everyone to react they way they want to your free speech . Everyome is for freedom except when it comes to freedom to get your butt kicked without calling a police officer . When everyone removes assault from the law books then I'll be pro freedom of speech .

Why pay money for a sore bottom when there are many people out there who would give you a sore bottom for free?

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

lnsane wrote: »

Also, if you're uncomfortable in your guild at the end of the day, for whatever reason, leave and find a new one that does fit you!
Guilds should be fun to be a part of, not nerve wrecking.

I like this answer.

It is the correct answer : guilds should be able to draw the line wherever they want and gather like-minded people.
The problem is that most times the guild leader or guild management altogether does a very poor job in that regard, either because they don't really care, and/or because they lack the experience in managing groups.
That's why I avoid guilds with very generic and loose guidelines ("everyone is welcome as long as you're friendly, helping, open and funny"). Guild rules should be clear, detailed and reflect the culture of the guild.
In my experience, guilds open to all kinds of joke and comments for the sake of "freedom of speech, be yourself, just have fun" are far more likely to fail and explode/split than guilds that are more strict in that regard. As someone else mentioned, it's not the "big mouthed" vs. the "thin skinned" here. Most offenders are usually very quick at getting offended too. Polite people are more solid both ways.
Politeness and manners have not been created by a bunch of annoying conservative elder for the sake of last century's traditions. They exist in order for us to communicate with people we don't know yet so that we can get to know each other. Since guilds are a place where people come and go all the time, I think that politeness and common courtesy are very useful as a common ground to start communicating.

Avidspark · March 2017

All of the above.

I have 3 distinctly trading guilds, and then one for distinctly activity (trials etc), and one for socializing in...

...in the trade guilds, chat is preferred to be friendly and family safe...in the other two though...

...it all depends on what YOU need in a guild, and what the GM decides is fine...now mind you, the social guild recruiters ensure that any new or prospective guildie is aware that the conversations therein are not for the faint-hearted...we get raunchy at times, but in a light-hearted fashion...in the activity guild, the rule is "don't be a bag of [possibly offensive term redacted]"...

...and ofc, if someone goes over the line, in your opinion, that lovely ignore list awaits them.

So, yah, all of the above, which is why I didn't vote in your poll

KochDerDamonen · March 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll share with you a secret . If you talk about things in a positive way , you get happy conversations . If you give respect you make respectful and very helpful friends . If you are kind , you are more often treated with kindness . Why would anyone want to be negative and attract negativity is so beyond me . It's like people that enjoy paying for spankings from professional spankers . You could keep your money and buy something nice without the sore bottom . Freedom to say what ever you want should only come if there is freedom for everyone to react they way they want to your free speech . Everyome is for freedom except when it comes to freedom to get your butt kicked without calling a police officer . When everyone removes assault from the law books then I'll be pro freedom of speech .

@Rohamed_Ali We had a time where you could assault someone for offending your feelings. It's called "pre-history". Most insane thing I've heard... well, it's hard to think of since when. There's a reason no one's for a freedom of 'kick someone's butt', because bodily injury is a big deal when you're a soft sack of various colored fluids.

[snip]

This conversation is very gray-area, but I think the idea that some people react to speech violently falls firmly on one side for most people. We don't base our social standards on how people in the congo behave, and that should go for any 'hood' where violence is an expected response to speech.

///

More on-topic, to elaborate on my other post. Of course 'no rules' doesn't translate to total anarchy and /b/ level shitposting in all cases. With a bunch of adults in guild, any matter of dispute can be handled in a straightforward fashion. Examples? Well, a couple in simple description...
Case 1) Person A has longwinded rant about (insert racial pejorative) in guild chat, Person B(and well, more people, it wasn't appreciated) in private tells them this isn't their blog and to not be a raging racist. Person A keeps their opinions on this topic to themselves and makes shorter posts, lest things be escalated to the officer's attention.
Case 2) Person C uses a racial pejorative in conversation, descriptively and not directed at anyone. Person D makes a fuss about it in guild and tries to make a public grandstand over it. Eventually an officer (and one of the player's personal friends) had to step in and set person C straight. Wrong way to handle the situation if someone upset person D, and there was no out-of-line behavior by person C (who was describing something that happened to them at work)

[Edit for removed quote]

Zinaroth · March 2017

I don't see how the rules of conducting yourself among other people should be any different just because it's in a video game. Strive to get your opinion through without offending anyone and if you have someone in guild to whom you know a certain matter is delicate it would be inconsiderate to offend that person.

Saturnana · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

There are guilds that specifically say they safe spaces for certain types. That guild was not one of them. There are no rule that you can't talk or joke or be silly about pretty much anything, besides it wasn't directed against anyone in particular.

But as I told you, you should understand, in large guilds all 500 members can't agree on everything. It is normal that someone might not like something. They asked you guys to stop, but it wasn't the Guild that censored you. Already had similar complaints and told them - it's not a safe space. Sure, if there was some personal conflict or like a serious argument, that could be stopped, but in that case - it wasn't anything serious.

Again, these conversations can be happening when no one from the leadership is online or when no one from the people who get offended is online, in the first case - no one can stop you, in the second case - no one will complain. But you should understand that among 500 members there might be someone who can ask you to stop. In this case it wasn't even disrespectful if I remember correctly. And either way - you were not restrained by a guild

Specifics aside, in general I'm for the option 1 (or 3). There are different people, not everyone will agree - it's normal. But the freedom of speech doesn't end where someone's feelings begin. There can always be situations where 1 person doesn't feel comfortable, that doesn't mean others are restrained. They could be nice to that one person and not continue the topic (while that person is online XD). Either way, unless it's an official guild rule that you can't talk about X and that rule is being enforced - I don't think you should leave a big guild if someone disagrees with you. It's a part of being in a guild with other people.

Edit:

This topic isn't about me.

Since you brought it up though--I left because I didn't think your guild was the right home, not because anyone asked me to leave. Someone was offended by the lighthearted conversation we were having so we promptly stopped out of respect. There's nothing more to it. I thought about it and left a while afterwards after deciding the guild wasn't a good fit for me. I did it quietly and did not rage, and I left on good terms with the offended party.

If you have anything more to say on the subject please keep it private and send me more ingame mail or a PM. Let's keep this a generalized poll, not a blog.

I think that's exactly the right way to go about it.

Too bad a lighthearted conversation made someone uncomfortable, and too bad that because of it, you may not have gotten what you were hoping to find in a guild, but at the end of the day we're adults. I've been in guilds where stuff that didn't even had to do with me made me leave ultimately, just because those incidents showed that maybe this wasn't a group of people I wanted to be a part of. And sometimes the guild was great fun, but the people didn't interest me regardless.

Kudos for moving on without drama, and here's to you finding a nice new guild to hang out with.

anitajoneb17_ESO · March 2017

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

This conversation is very gray-area, but I think the idea that some people react to speech violently falls firmly on one side for most people. We don't base our social standards on how people in the congo behave, and that should go for any 'hood' where violence is an expected response to speech.

Well, Congolese people reading this will be very pleased to see them described as the very example of unsocial, incorrect, brutal, violent, prehistorical cultural behaviours....

See, it's not directed at me, but I still call it offensive... (unless I've misunderstood you).

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

This conversation is very gray-area, but I think the idea that some people react to speech violently falls firmly on one side for most people. We don't base our social standards on how people in the congo behave, and that should go for any 'hood' where violence is an expected response to speech.

Well, Congolese people reading this will be very pleased to see them described as the very example of unsocial, incorrect, brutal, violent, prehistorical cultural behaviours....

See, it's not directed at me, but I still call it offensive... (unless I've misunderstood you).

He is probably referring to the warlords down their and not the nice and decent African citizens . There is a big difference between allowing a brawl to take place to settle a disagreement and the un fathomable practice of warlords participating in genocide . This should not even be used as an example to the our original conversation as it is comparing fire crackers to atomic bombs .

randolphbenoit · March 2017

Little swearing is fine as we adults. Only issue if racism or mistreatment of another player happens but so far that not be a problem.

Tabbycat · March 2017

I have no desire to create and police a nanny-state. Most guilds seem to follow the general rule of respect your fellow guildies. That seems to work well for the majority of players. Common sense dictates that you avoid conversations involving real life politics and religion. I honestly think if members have a disagreement with each other they should be mature enough to handle it between themselves without bringing in third-parties to negotiate.