Guilds as safe spaces

Tasear

There's wAys to act human while having free thought.

FluffyReachWitch

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

One important lesson I learned in life is that if you hurt someone, you are responsible for both your words/actions and the pain the other party suffers. You're also still the responsible party if the other person tells you to cut it out, becomes hostile in turn, or wants nothing more to do with you.

Obviously a few factors can change this. Some people are manipulative and take advantage of this concept. Sometimes people will bully or threaten someone and then lie that they were provoked. Sometimes people go too far in response. Of course there are always going to be people pretending they were wronged to get something. But that's not what we're talking about right now.

Point is, to say that other people should accept harm quietly and move on, is to pretend you bear no responsibility for your own actions. And that is a social l2p issue.

All of this is good and important. All of us make mistakes and it's our response to others that is the judge of our character, not a first-time mistake. Sometimes we do stuff that is tactless or unappreciated. The best of us acknowledge, move on, and become more tactful in the future, that's basic social skills learning. The worst of us argue that they never made a mis-step in the first place and that others are crazy for having any reaction to them but a positive, even sycophantic one. Or they do the same crap things on purpose to try and 'prove' they don't deserve a negative reaction.

And like, keeping cool can be hard, because we do most things expecting a positive reaction. By nature we don't assume our ideas are bad ideas, because if they were bad ideas, we wouldn't hold them. So being told others didn't like what we do can feel bad.

but an altercation where we try to justify that we don't bear responsibility will always tank discussions and our emotional states even worse, I guarantee.

Yep. I really want to emphasize the mistakes part here, because there are people who struggle with that and have fears of being Hated Forever (social anxiety is a butt). Many people do understand that mistakes are made sometimes. Most among us have been there. We've all messed up and learned something from it, for better or worse. We're all gonna mess up again sometime. It's part of growing as a person. So, many people are also forgiving.

That's why, if you really did make a mistake, owning up to it helps. It conveys you're willing to try again, that you really do see others as people, and more people will trust you. Not everyone will, because some have a hard time trusting again, for their own reasons. All you can do is learn and grow, with sincerity, and keep moving on.

Orjix

I'm in a very "if you can't handle what other people are saying, get out!" and i love it that way. very freeing.

Curtdogg47

This is what I kind of go by!

If you are going to talk *** then you had dam well better be able to take *** from everyone else. If you can't, then keep your mouth shut!

If you are easily offended then MMO's may not the place for you! Or don't just start sharing your life story before you get to know the people in guild chat.

Be respectful to people, and treat people how you would like to be treated. I spend a lot of time in chat with my guild. And its a guild that I have been with for a long time. As you spend time together conversations can go outside of ESO to more RL topics.

Even in my closest groups of real friends, every now and then a little hazing can go to far, every so often some says something and someone takes it the wrong way. Online is the same. I just wouldn't take anything said in video game chat to seriously or let weigh to heavily on myself.

stevesherpa

Milvan wrote: »

I think I lost a little bit. A lot of people is saying things like:

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

"If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on..."

"Have tougher skin"

"Suck it up."

So, if someone directly offends me (or my people, my ethnicity, my religion, my gender, my political views etc) it's my fault to be offended? Really guys? I don't think you people would get that low.

Don't 9gag and 4chan plz.

You live in 'murika now.

stevesherpa

Bouldercleave wrote: »

stevesherpa wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

I think this world needs to toughen up a friggin bit. The term "safe space" offends me.

If I offend you - and I mean TRULY offend you, tell me and I will sincerely and from the bottom of my heart apologize.

If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on...


Just pop in to Auridon on PC/NA and listen to zone chat for 5 minutes if you want to be offended. The difference is I have the stones to just look away and not get all butt hurt about someone's words.

God forbid people exercise manners and decorum.

And God forbid people don't get offended by every little thing in the world. I myself try not to offend people and I very rarely make off color jokes unless I know EXACTLY who the audience is, but people seem to be constantly looking for things to be offended by.

It is OK to just let things slide and not get crazy because someone said the word balls.

Now if there is something directed specifically at one person or group with the intent of being offensive - that is another matter all together.

Its old fashioned of me I guess, to go out of my way to make other people feel comfortable.
Its a sign of the times, it appears. The "me me me, its all about me" attitude means more than being polite and mature.

Winter

Why does everybody use "safe spaces" as an excuse for being inappropriate? This game is a social activity, the same as any other social activity happening offline. As an older player, I think some of the things people say under the mistaken banner of free speech or humor are pretty infantile. So if I was throwing a cocktail party, and someone brought their 4 year old to it, and the little nipper was running around yelling "Poopy poopy poopy!", he'd think he was hilarious, but he'd be the only one. If I held a family reunion with 200 people at it of all ages, and a bunch of the teenagers were shouting about someone being a** r**ed, I have a feeling people would be unhappy with that.

Social areas are full of these spaces some of you keep calling "safe". You wouldn't dream of going to a restaurant, jumping up onto the table and yelling some of the racist, sexist, hate speech I've seen in ESO. Try arguing with the manager there that he's a snowflake and needs a safe space. Sheesh, just because this is online, you think it's an alternate universe and no rules at all apply. The fact that the GMs here don't react as fast as the manager doesn't mean it's ok.


Everybody thinks everybody else playing the game is just like them - the same sex, the same age, the same sense of humor. They're not.

I saw someone yesterday in Auridon zone chat wondering why no one is ever witty anymore. The rest of the people in chat seemed only half equipped for it. It made me miss some of my old guilds in other games.

Oh yeah, and get orf my lawn!

Rohamad_Ali

notimetocare wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll share with you a secret . If you talk about things in a positive way , you get happy conversations . If you give respect you make respectful and very helpful friends . If you are kind , you are more often treated with kindness . Why would anyone want to be negative and attract negativity is so beyond me . It's like people that enjoy paying for spankings from professional spankers . You could keep your money and buy something nice without the sore bottom . Freedom to say what ever you want should only come if there is freedom for everyone to react they way they want to your free speech . Everyome is for freedom except when it comes to freedom to get your butt kicked without calling a police officer . When everyone removes assault from the law books then I'll be pro freedom of speech .

It is very sad how many people think free speech should hinge upon 'can I hit you if I dont like what you say?' Guess some people just never made it past our common ancestor with chimps.

Really ? I heard one of the astronauts that landed on the moon punched a guy for saying that was a lie . If he is no better then a chimp now for not putting up with insults then please go visit that astronaut and tell him on camera . I want to see if he does it twice .

Aliyavana

Lolol, the fact you used the term safe space i feel will get you ppl trolling you

rustic_potato

Depends on the type of the guild. My primary guild has no rules regarding political correctness. You should be able to take what you dish out. If you want to be politically correct then go away. Progression is the end goal and nothing else matters.

geonsocal

probably was already mentioned, but, best way to implement anything - build it yourself...always best to fulfill expectations from above...except with kids...then you're simply trying to survive, and, you find yourself hiding in the bathroom to check the forums...it's spring break, and the god kids are visiting...how do you real parents do it...sorry for the rambling...

Amadis001

rustic_potato wrote: »

Depends on the type of the guild. My primary guild has no rules regarding political correctness. You should be able to take what you dish out. If you want to be politically correct then go away. Progression is the end goal and nothing else matters.

I don't believe you that nothing else matters. Do you mean to say that the guy with the best DPS could spend his time on your Discord (or whatever) flaming racial slurs (for example) until all of his targets are driven out of the group? Nonsense. Someone is going to speak up and put the a$$hat in his place. Because other things always matter.

phairdon

You stated you cared about the person. Did you overstep personal boundaries? You could have stayed in the guild, apologized and given the person space for whatever period of time.
Outside of the above, what one person might find humorous, another person will be offended by.

dday3six

Milvan wrote: »

I think I lost a little bit. A lot of people is saying things like:

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

"If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on..."

"Have tougher skin"

"Suck it up."

So, if someone directly offends me (or my people, my ethnicity, my religion, my gender, my political views etc) it's my fault to be offended? Really guys? I don't think you people would get that low.

Don't 9gag and 4chan plz.

Yes. You should have control over your own actions and emotions if you wish to interact with the society at large.

Then, are you an individual? The majority of your examples are you, as a singular person, being offended on be half of others, but how are you able to speak on behalf of a larger collective? Are you the elected representative of any of your examples? Or does it just seem more impactful to be offended on behave of a group vs by yourself.

dpencil

Guild chat is no place for real life talk anyway. Make a racist joke against an Argonian if you want.

acw37162

The idea of space spaces.

You know All forms of ESO chat text or voice should be safe places. When anyone logs into play a game be they seven or ninety should be free from offense.

All people/s who offends others should immediately be banned in a progressive scale up to and including bans on future games.

There should be a arbitrary set of inflexible unbending rules enforced by nameless faceless moderators to cover everyone across the globes current and future sets offensive conduct.

And when they have banned everyone and no one can long and play then you will have a safe space.

Safe spaces don't exist and as sure as you believe they do you will be shocked and amazed one day when they become "not safe"

d0e1ow

It's not about being heavily censored and it's not about being super offensive just because "I wanna be". It's like every other social setting: there are boundaries. You have to figure those boundaries out. Unless YOU are the GM, then it isn't YOUR guild. You are there as a guest, no matter how well adjusted/well liked you are. You are STILL a guest in the GM's guild.

Each guild is different. Making a one off poll with these loaded answers that are so clearly political is useless. Most people have a spectrum. I'm personally able to talk politics without getting super offensive/offended. I'm able to talk about religion without getting offended. A lot of people aren't, and I have to be cognizant of that if I want to be in their social circle. Just like I personally am not OK with playing devil's advocate about certain things. Some things set me off. Some things are a boundary with me.

It's not about being a special snowflake or an anti-social rebel. It's called being a normal adult. Guilds are no different. If you're trying to make friends with people whether in-game or in real life then prepare to respect boundaries. I know some guilds are spaces of no holds barred conversation, but guilds with mixtures of adults and genders and different walks of life all come with boundaries.

It's just how the real world is. It's not some political/ideological bias. It's just people.

nick59349b14_ESO

Offended? What's that? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Dantaria

dday3six wrote: »

Personally I think a lot of people could get a lot out of having a little thicker skin and not letting stupid things bother them.

dday3six wrote: »

Yes. You should have control over your own actions and emotions if you wish to interact with the society at large.

Then, are you an individual? The majority of your examples are you, as a singular person, being offended on be half of others, but how are you able to speak on behalf of a larger collective? Are you the elected representative of any of your examples? Or does it just seem more impactful to be offended on behave of a group vs by yourself.

I... I don't even...

Guys, guys, come on, it's XXI century, some basic knowledge about human psychology?

People absolutely do control their actions, yes. But we do not control our emotions. Or feelings for that matter.

How human being deals with offence is a choice. But being offended isn't.

When we, for example, hear that we are dumb, that we are n00bs, that we should git gud or gtfo - it is hurtful for some people, yes. If it isn't for you that doesn't mean that you're somehow emotionally superior. It simply means that you don't care about that particular stabs.

Well, breaking news: people are different. Some care. Some are simply more emotional and that isn't a choice either, it's biochemistry.

The one who actively rages, or sulks, or starts to be an a**ole over offence probably should learn some control... over actions. The one who presses Alt + F4 and goes outside or to watch some cat-videos on YouTube is fine.

But in both cases offence has been made. And being offended isn't a fault. "Can't help but be offended" totally is the thing.

So what we say and how we say it matter. It always does.

SlayerSyrena

Poll choices were inadequate.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

You can have a good time in your guild, not feel confined, yet still respect others. It's called being a decent person.

AlexanderDeLarge

https://youtu.be/6pTbL7GYUuA

Yuukir_MapleBeaver

Offense is taken, not given. Grow up.

The fact that you even try to oppose free speech and offense is extremely stupid.

Jaeysa

Personally, I'm just in trading guilds in ESO. I only rarely pay attention to chat because that's not why I'm here. That being said. I do have a standard of 'blatant racism/homophobia isn't ok' for me to stay in the guild regardless of how often I pay attention to chat.

If I was there for social reasons, I'd have the same exact standard. Other guilds can do what they want, but one that is ok with bigotry isn't for me.

I very frequently see people complain about things being overly-politically correct but very rarely actually see that in practice. Often people who are complaining either 1, got called out for being a jerk or 2, read an article that details how over-the-top the world is, often leaving facts out.

kyle.wilson

There should be an other option.
I don't usually like joking in text chat. Too often the tone can be misinterpreted.
Then again there are people that are way too easily upset, if they plan on having a successful career they need to learn to lighten up.
If I want to joke around with guildies I prefer to use teamspeak.

colig

Can someone provide an example of something said that they believe qualifies as 'I should be allowed to say this regardless of its offensiveness'? And if it's not allowed on this forum, perhaps they should consider whether it is really appropriate at all, within a guild too.

lucky_Sage

andreasranasen wrote: »

My guild is my sanctuary. But it's not about keeping things PG. It's about respecting one another and being a decent human being. My guild make jokes, talk nonsense and have fun all the time but we don't disrespect one another or discriminate against someone based off their race/sexual orientation/male/female. (I see this happen in a lot of guilds).

I have a transgender girl in my guild. She's THE kindest person, but she is going through hell in school right now. For her, our guild is her "safe space". A way for her to get away from negativity and discrimination in real life. With us she can have fun and just be.

@andreasranasen

theres a difference in discrimination and joking and can be a fine line but a lot of people get offended on things that don't mean anything

DragonBound

Browiseth wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

There is no reason to be rude in any guild chat. If you want to discuss some opinion, you can easily do it without behaving like a child, bickering etc.

@IcyDeadPeople there is no reason to be overly sensitive. if you want to interact with other human beings, you can easily do it while accepting some of them will say things you don't want to hear

see it works both ways

No no no it does not work that way, there is a big difference in not wanting to listen to someones opinion and someone expressing it like a child, just because some people think its ok to act childish does not mean we have to put up with it because they do not want to grow up.

johu31

Safe space: area designated safe for those that have been told their whole lives that they are special. A place to go when you find out the real world isn't safe and won't treat you special. A place to hide, and retreat rather than toughening up. A place to be among other like minded special people so that opposing views won't trigger anger and irrational emotional thoughts leading to actions like crying, rioting, yelling, fighting, pouting, and thumb sucking.

Theres no such thing as a safe space.

notimetocare

Milvan wrote: »

I think I lost a little bit. A lot of people is saying things like:

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

"If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on..."

"Have tougher skin"

"Suck it up."

So, if someone directly offends me (or my people, my ethnicity, my religion, my gender, my political views etc) it's my fault to be offended? Really guys? I don't think you people would get that low.

Don't 9gag and 4chan plz.

Yep. 100%. Offense is your reaction to the opinions of others.

You can't control what others say or think but you control how you react. That is the core idea behind 'offense is never given only taken'

DragonBound

johu31 wrote: »

Safe space: area designated safe for those that have been told their whole lives that they are special. A place to go when you find out the real world isn't safe and won't treat you special. A place to hide, and retreat rather than toughening up. A place to be among other like minded special people so that opposing views won't trigger anger and irrational emotional thoughts leading to actions like crying, rioting, yelling, fighting, pouting, and thumb sucking.

Theres no such thing as a safe space.

I kind of disagree, toughing up your just becoming like the rest of mainstream your literally playing by their rules, sometimes we do need a safe space and we can have them, however people also abuse safe spaces and try to ignore everything that is around or said to them. There is a moderation that needs to be involved when it comes to returning to yourself for a time much like how many things in life, this survival of the fittest attitude crap will not help anyone and only make people worse and bitter in the end.