Guilds as safe spaces

stevesherpa

Molydeus wrote: »

There was an incident earlier today that completely blindsided me, where someone I care about got offended in guild chat and I felt simultaneously bad and confused. I realized I probably wasn't a good fit for that particular guild and left for greener pastures. It got me thinking though, should your guild be a place you can let loose and joke about subjects you normally wouldn't, or should guilds be just like real life where you have to check your words and emotions so you don't offend anybody?

I can see it from both sides of the issue, where some people log into ESO to escape the harshness of life, and others log into ESO to cut loose and be someone they can't be in reality.

What do you think?

When I first started ESO, I was welcomed into a very laid back guild. Most were very helpful and patient. The time I was in there, we ran some trials successful and it was a blast.

There was one particular officer in the guild who was Australian and very rude to people in guild chat. Often, their question were met with immaturity and sometimes downright nastiness from him. I talked to the guild master who defended him. "Oh, that is just him being him, etc." To which I replied "that is not how an officer of a guild should have towards new members, it chases people away." She refused to see my point so I simply left the guild.

To answer your question - I doubt people should expect a guild to be a "safe place" - if you want everyone to be the same, it wont be a big guild - all types will come in. The guildmaster and officers should set expectations and rules from top to bottom - not favoring certain players and certainly, conducting themselves becoming of guild leadership.

JKorr

Browiseth wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

it works both ways, you should feel free to speak your mind whenever you want without having to worry about someone's precious feelings, but at the same time expect people to react differently to what you say

people do need to stop being so sensitive though. i never speak in guildchat anymore because of that reason; i can recall a time someone was asking for help because they kept dying, and i suggested that they probably need to get better at the game

i was shot down and called a troll because i dared imply someone was less skilled at the game than me, and that's just rude

apparently

Let's see...

"I am having a horrible time killing the boss in quest X. I keep dying over and over. Can someone give me a hand?"

GIT GUD AND L2P.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2nd try:
"I am having a horrible time killing the boss in quest X. I keep dying over and over. Can someone give me a hand?"

Is you gear repaired? Have you outleveled your weapons? Are you using food or drinks for stat boosts? Is there an attack the boss uses that you might be able to block? Are you using poisons? There are crafters in the guild who can help with some of this, and if you are still having problems someone might be able to give you a hand.

Gee. I can't imagine why someone would take a "learn to play" comment as possible trolling/boorish/tool behavior. /sarcasm

There are ways of answering someone that won't instantly make you look like a troll. In guild chat, if my first impulse is to say "You can't beat X? What on Nirn are you doing?" I don't use my first impulsive reply. If I think the request is really ridiculous, I just don't reply. Otherwise I do try to be a mature adult in my responses. And yes, my guild chats can get rather interesting, and fun, especially when one guildie has a strange phobis about slaughterfish.....

@JKorr you are operating on the assumption i presented my suggestion that way

it was more along the lines of "you might need to learn the basics of the game if you're having this much trouble with menial tasks like this, i reccomend watching videos/reading guides"

i'm also just sick of people disregarding the possibility they may be bad at the game, so it's my first suggestion. people throw out excuses like "i need better gear" or "i need a better build" when really, they're just bad at the game. it's a bad mentality to keep, always just assuming you're the best at the game and if something's wrong it's not an issue with personal skill

but no, please try and misconstrue this. i'm eagerly anticipating how you continue the argument

Your original post didn't exactly convey the idea you gave a more detailed reply, so, my apologies for making assumptions. The assumption was based on replies I've actually seen, however, so it wouldn't exactly be an unheard of response. Likewise the insta-responses from some players about how easy "content x" is so if someone can't do it, they are abysmally bad. For some players, it might be factors other than simply "being bad" that are causing the problem. One of my guilds has a member who enjoys playing, sticks to pve only, and occasionally requires help with a fight. A physical disability causes them to have problems in some instances. No amount of character gear, how-to videos, or guides will help, at least not until someone develops a user control that doesn't require the use of hands. Until the person stated what the problem was, we didn't know; suggestions and discussion got the problem defined, and we all came up with some things that would help.

I have run into players who do seem to not want to put any effort into the game but want the rewards for the content they won't attempt to learn. The ones who really do want to play will listen to advice. You can make helpful suggestions without making it sound condescending. It isn't so much the content that is the problem, but how the content is presented. "Yeah, that boss/fight/delve can be hard at first. If your gear/food/weapons/whatever are all in order, you might want to check out these guides and this youtube I found. They really helped me." as opposed to "If you can't do menial tasks like this, I recommend watching videos/reading guides." Same information, slightly different presentation.

Jamini

This poll lacks a vital option:

"I do not personally care what the guild chat policies are, but I will follow them unless I have reason to leave the guild. It's just a game, after all."

Also can we please stop misusing the term "Safe Spaces" already? 2016 is over and it wants to give its dumb term back to ***, abuse, and drug victims already.

Xecil

I don't believe in safe spaces. Living isn't for the weak.

Cryptical

Sibenice wrote: »

I make inappropriate jokes in guild chat. It's fun and meaningless. If you need your sjw safe space then make sure you join a guild that agrees with that.

This post sort of displays why people should keep their motor mouth to the low gear rather than open the throttle.

If @Sibenice hadn't made a broad assumption of people who disagree, then it would be fine. But sibenice didn't keep that motor mouth on the issue of possibly-inappropriate jokes shared on a rated-M game... Sibenice revved up that motor mouth and acted dismissive of anyone who may object by pre-emotive my labeling them a sjw, doing so in a negative tone.

Perfect example of someone who objects while also being objectionable.

Amadis001

It's not a question of PG vs. not-PG for me, though if that's you concern, you need to find a truly "safe-space" guild. I am sure they're out there.

For me, the question is whether I want be to part of a guild where people think it's fun to troll and generally be jerks and think that it's OK to be that way because "we're all friends". It's usually just a few outliers in any group. You will find that some guilds tolerate them (perhaps because many of them really are friends IRL), and some guilds won't.

Personally, simply don't have the time and energy for drama. So I either ignore the flames, or if the guild turns toxic, I leave for greener pastures. Tone is generally set by the guild's officers. There is enough variety out there that you can probably quickly find a set of guilds that, more or less, suit your temperment.

RABIDxWOLVERINE

GreenhaloX wrote: »

RABIDxWOLVERINE wrote: »

People should get tough skin. Everyone is to easily offended to the point where if you have a different opinion then them it causes them to be offended. That's ridiculous if you don't like someones opinion ignore it. That's the great thing about opinions, everyone has one and no one has to listen to it.

I love it when someone always say.. "Have tougher skin", "Suck it up." It is so pretentious. It is not weakness to dislike what others are saying or doing, or to get offended. It is all human nature. Tough skin is not part of human nature. Everybody are entitled to their opinion and to voice it or to complain or rant about something. Sure, you can just ignore anyone or anything, but not everyone can do such so readily. Plus, ignoring stuff is not always the best option and doesn't help fix whatever issue or concern. You can say you have tough skin all you want and can take criticism or able to ignore badgering or negative comments, but everyone has a breaking point. ESO is a fine game, and enjoyable, but, unfortunately, there are just people/players doing and saying less-than-positive things, to make it not so enjoyable sometime. Nobody should have to deal with any experience they feel are negative. So, they come and voice their frustration and opinion on his forum.. fine, it's a way to vent and for them to find somewhat of a relief.

But that's the truth. You don't have to care about my views or opinions anymore than I have to care about yours. Personally I think a lot of people could get a lot out of having a little thicker skin and not letting stupid things bother them. Obviously its a bit different in RL but with the internet and video games we have this wonderful feature called "Block". Personally I think people should be much nicer and more reasonable whether in RL or a game but that's never going to happen. There is a vast amount of people who want to upset people and cause people pain and there are a vast number of people who just want to troll others. Instead of getting all offended, you could just not associate with said person(s).

Maybe I'm different because of the way I grew up idk but I know people are too easily offended these days. Heres a scenario for you. Player A and Player B are in a guild together and this plays out;

Player A Could say anything you can decide, but it could be an inappropriate joke, mean comment, spewing trash from his mouth whatever the situation you could handle it the same way. For my scenario lets say mean comment.

Player A: Wow, you really suck at this game, you should just quit!

Player B has 1 of two options, They can sit here and argue with an A$$hole and get offended by his opinion or they could go to there profile and block the user. You could sit here and argue all day chances are you will never change their opinion much like you wont change my opinion. Or you could just ignore them/block them whatever you got to do (I'm on Xbox so I can just block GTs).

Everyone can have any opinion that they want and you cant change that. What you can do is ignore it or block them and refuse to associate with them.

There are plenty of people who have different opinions than I do but that's fine they can believe what they want its not my job to break down there door and silence them, because they have every right to have any opinion they want.

So you can form any opinion you want about my "tough skin" comment but to me people could benefit from letting things roll off them and as far as your opinion goes I could care less because at the end of the day you liking me or my opinions doesn't even make the cut on things I actually care or worry about. Sounds rude but its not its just the truth.

If someone thinks I suck at this game, that's fine I probably do but I don't play to make them proud/envious/happy, I play because I enjoy the world of TES. Quit worrying so much about what others think and just be you, they can take it or leave it and if they leave it its probably better for you anyway.

k9mouse

Guilds are safe places and one should be able to speak their minds. However, one can express oneself and still be respectful and kind to their follow guild mates.

Balamoor

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but disrespecting other people on any side of the argument isn't tolerated.

Treat one another the same way you wish to be treated, it's that simple. I also have a pretty strict policy of keeping the real world out of the game, because that's where 90% of friction starts. The other 10% is folks trying to bring the uber Raider Burning Crusade mentality to the game, that language will get you bounced from my guild fast.

The result is happy guild with happy players.

TerraDewBerry

I think you should be mindful of offending others just like you (hopefully) do in real life. There is no need to be an a$$ just because you're on the Internet. (imho)

Bouldercleave

I think this world needs to toughen up a friggin bit. The term "safe space" offends me.

If I offend you - and I mean TRULY offend you, tell me and I will sincerely and from the bottom of my heart apologize.

If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on...


Just pop in to Auridon on PC/NA and listen to zone chat for 5 minutes if you want to be offended. The difference is I have the stones to just look away and not get all butt hurt about someone's words.

FluffyReachWitch

Loads of people play ESO, and some are also playing to escape life for a bit. Seeing something echo what they have to face offline spoils that. So it's probably harder to see it in guilds, where they may be seeking a greater sense of community.

As for jokes, basic decency does not need to end where humor begins. And even indecent humor doesn't need to make someone else into a joke. (Some people as individuals are truly awful and deserve ridicule, but that's another situation entirely and has its own nuances.)

JD2013

I was told something at a certain point in my life that sticks with me ...

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

If I truly and deeply offend someone then they can tell me and I will sincerely and deeply apologise. But some people also need a thicker skin. It's all down to discussion at the end of the day and the leadership of the guild.

Jemcrystal

I talk with polite manners first and foremost. But if pursued by a vigilante I will get aggressive. Back me in a tight corner and it's fangs and fists. If I am not strong enough I'll outwit you. But I hope it does not come to that.

Many times in guilds I feel cornered by what others expect I should be wanting to do that day - which is really want they to do and nothing about what I want. So I ignore guild chat entirely.

Only once was I hounded by a guild leader. I left the guild and at first she seemed to simply wish to know why. Our conversation was polite. But she kept after me asking why did I go, why did I go, why did I go. So I told her the truth finally, that she lost the guild trader and "it irritated me." My exact words. Boy was she miffed. Well, she should not have asked for the truth if she didn't want hear it.

stevesherpa

Bouldercleave wrote: »

I think this world needs to toughen up a friggin bit. The term "safe space" offends me.

If I offend you - and I mean TRULY offend you, tell me and I will sincerely and from the bottom of my heart apologize.

If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on...


Just pop in to Auridon on PC/NA and listen to zone chat for 5 minutes if you want to be offended. The difference is I have the stones to just look away and not get all butt hurt about someone's words.

God forbid people exercise manners and decorum.

stevesherpa

Just to addend what I said - I do think guilds need to be up front about their "social" aspect and what to expect when you enter it.

ESO did a great job of giving guilds multiple channels - which I think a good guild master will sub certain channels for certain types of players - in the case of a social guild, you want an R rated, roast style channel in g-chat, make it g-chat 2. For more family/kid friendly G-rated, G-chat 3. G-chat 1 is for general questions, etc. and so on.

TheStealthDude

A session in Guild chat/TeamSpeak with less than 3 jokes at my and other members' expense is considered a dull affair.

Milvan

I think I lost a little bit. A lot of people is saying things like:

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

"If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on..."

"Have tougher skin"

"Suck it up."

So, if someone directly offends me (or my people, my ethnicity, my religion, my gender, my political views etc) it's my fault to be offended? Really guys? I don't think you people would get that low.

Don't 9gag and 4chan plz.

Sweetpea704

I'm in social guilds that are like family and I'm in a few big trade guilds. I don't follow the chat in my trade guilds which has a lot of bad language. But, I don't expect people to change for me. I'm there to make a bunch of money.

Bouldercleave

stevesherpa wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

I think this world needs to toughen up a friggin bit. The term "safe space" offends me.

If I offend you - and I mean TRULY offend you, tell me and I will sincerely and from the bottom of my heart apologize.

If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on...


Just pop in to Auridon on PC/NA and listen to zone chat for 5 minutes if you want to be offended. The difference is I have the stones to just look away and not get all butt hurt about someone's words.

God forbid people exercise manners and decorum.

And God forbid people don't get offended by every little thing in the world. I myself try not to offend people and I very rarely make off color jokes unless I know EXACTLY who the audience is, but people seem to be constantly looking for things to be offended by.

It is OK to just let things slide and not get crazy because someone said the word balls.

Now if there is something directed specifically at one person or group with the intent of being offensive - that is another matter all together.

TheStealthDude

Milvan wrote: »

I think I lost a little bit. A lot of people is saying things like:

"Offence is rarely given but always taken."

"If you are just being a whiny, overly sensitive, snowflakey little *** - you better put a helmet on..."

"Have tougher skin"

"Suck it up."

So, if someone directly offends me (or my people, my ethnicity, my religion, my gender, my political views etc) it's my fault to be offended? Really guys? I don't think you people would get that low.

Don't 9gag and 4chan plz.

Only you are in control of whether or not you are offended. You read words written on a screen, or hear them spoken from some faceless person and make an emotional response to them. Should someone else really be held responsible for your lack of emotional control?

I won't go so far to say that being offended is always a choice (though sometimes it certainly is), but your emotional responses are the sole responsibility of you.

Sibenice

Cryptical wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

I make inappropriate jokes in guild chat. It's fun and meaningless. If you need your sjw safe space then make sure you join a guild that agrees with that.

This post sort of displays why people should keep their motor mouth to the low gear rather than open the throttle.

If @Sibenice hadn't made a broad assumption of people who disagree, then it would be fine. But sibenice didn't keep that motor mouth on the issue of possibly-inappropriate jokes shared on a rated-M game... Sibenice revved up that motor mouth and acted dismissive of anyone who may object by pre-emotive my labeling them a sjw, doing so in a negative tone.

Perfect example of someone who objects while also being objectionable.

The "safe space" thing is an sjw thing. I also wasn't referring to everyone but specifically to the OP. But nice job on acting professionally offended in their place. Lol

max_only

Is there really no one in your offline lives that you can commiserate to? You have no one who will agree with you when you want to speak ill of a group of people? Examine why that is.

Get you some family and friends with whom you can complain. Why get on a game, created for fun, and run your mouth? You have a private residence to do that. Once you log into the service owned by ZOS you are no longer in your private space. Were you raised by wolves? Because even wolves have societal rules. They aren't there to repress you, they are there to smooth over the rocky landscape of human interaction and all of its variables.

Politeness and manners are what successful societies use to move through life on the path of least resistance.

There is a time and a place to use strong language. Learn 2 live with other people. The world is not going to cater to your "jokes".

FluffyReachWitch

One important lesson I learned in life is that if you hurt someone, you are responsible for both your words/actions and the pain the other party suffers. You're also still the responsible party if the other person tells you to cut it out, becomes hostile in turn, or wants nothing more to do with you.

Obviously a few factors can change this. Some people are manipulative and take advantage of this concept. Sometimes people will bully or threaten someone and then lie that they were provoked. Sometimes people go too far in response. Of course there are always going to be people pretending they were wronged to get something. But that's not what we're talking about right now.

Point is, to say that other people should accept harm quietly and move on, is to pretend you bear no responsibility for your own actions. And that is a social l2p issue.

notimetocare

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I'll share with you a secret . If you talk about things in a positive way , you get happy conversations . If you give respect you make respectful and very helpful friends . If you are kind , you are more often treated with kindness . Why would anyone want to be negative and attract negativity is so beyond me . It's like people that enjoy paying for spankings from professional spankers . You could keep your money and buy something nice without the sore bottom . Freedom to say what ever you want should only come if there is freedom for everyone to react they way they want to your free speech . Everyome is for freedom except when it comes to freedom to get your butt kicked without calling a police officer . When everyone removes assault from the law books then I'll be pro freedom of speech .

It is very sad how many people think free speech should hinge upon 'can I hit you if I dont like what you say?' Guess some people just never made it past our common ancestor with chimps.

notimetocare

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

This conversation is very gray-area, but I think the idea that some people react to speech violently falls firmly on one side for most people. We don't base our social standards on how people in the congo behave, and that should go for any 'hood' where violence is an expected response to speech.

Well, Congolese people reading this will be very pleased to see them described as the very example of unsocial, incorrect, brutal, violent, prehistorical cultural behaviours....

See, it's not directed at me, but I still call it offensive... (unless I've misunderstood you).

He is probably referring to the warlords down their and not the nice and decent African citizens . There is a big difference between allowing a brawl to take place to settle a disagreement and the un fathomable practice of warlords participating in genocide . This should not even be used as an example to the our original conversation as it is comparing fire crackers to atomic bombs .

Very little difference. You think your power should control someone else's speech. Little better than an animal.

AlwaysOnFire

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

One important lesson I learned in life is that if you hurt someone, you are responsible for both your words/actions and the pain the other party suffers. You're also still the responsible party if the other person tells you to cut it out, becomes hostile in turn, or wants nothing more to do with you.

Obviously a few factors can change this. Some people are manipulative and take advantage of this concept. Sometimes people will bully or threaten someone and then lie that they were provoked. Sometimes people go too far in response. Of course there are always going to be people pretending they were wronged to get something. But that's not what we're talking about right now.

Point is, to say that other people should accept harm quietly and move on, is to pretend you bear no responsibility for your own actions. And that is a social l2p issue.

All of this is good and important. All of us make mistakes and it's our response to others that is the judge of our character, not a first-time mistake. Sometimes we do stuff that is tactless or unappreciated. The best of us acknowledge, move on, and become more tactful in the future, that's basic social skills learning. The worst of us argue that they never made a mis-step in the first place and that others are crazy for having any reaction to them but a positive, even sycophantic one. Or they do the same crap things on purpose to try and 'prove' they don't deserve a negative reaction.

And like, keeping cool can be hard, because we do most things expecting a positive reaction. By nature we don't assume our ideas are bad ideas, because if they were bad ideas, we wouldn't hold them. So being told others didn't like what we do can feel bad.

but an altercation where we try to justify that we don't bear responsibility will always tank discussions and our emotional states even worse, I guarantee.

Molydeus

Mephisto939 wrote: »

ZOS_BillE wrote: »

We've removed some comments for becoming political and some for baiting. Please keep the forum rules in mind when posting and try to keep the conversation constructive.

Thank you for removing my comments and making the forum a truly safe space. Someone almost got a feeling hurt.

Wish I could have seen them before they got deleted. Can you write them in more "cooperative" manner?

Recremen

I think that's going to be highly dependent on the particular guild. The quick-and-dirty truth is that if you are a bad fit for a particular guild's subculture then you'll get better traction using that guild slot for something else.

Reverb

I didn't answer this, because there are different expectations and standards for different guilds. Some of my guilds are off-color, anything goes chat. One is clean, friendly, PC chat only - and that's ok with everybody because we know that's how it is. My trade guilds are a bit chatty and a touch profane, but officers will immediately put a stop to overtly offensive or insulting comments.

I think it's a good balance, and I suspect my experience is similar to most players on PC.