Why do people hate Zergs so much?

casparian · March 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Some people play this game to improve individual skill, master game mechanics, maximize individual capabilities, and otherwise get good on an individual level. These players minimize group size, try to fight outnumbered, and focus on the fights rather than objectives.

Zergers disregard individual skill in favor of taking objectives as a team and winning the campaign. These players focus on the map and campaign score and view accumulating numbers as a tactic with which to win challenging fights, much like line of sight is to soloers.

Neither side is necessarily right or wrong, but their play styles clash. Groups of people who have ideological disagreements have fought throughout history. Sometimes this escalates to tension. That's all.

This is exactly right. Soloers and small-groupers enjoy a play style that requires and rewards certain aspects of gameplay, and zergers enjoy a play style that requires and rewards others. I engage in both (on different builds) and enjoy both. I still think the general resentment against zergs is warranted, though. The problem is that the two kinds of player often encounter one another, and when that happens, soloers/small-groupers more often than not find it impossible to continue engaging in the playstyle they have chosen. As you say, their playstyles clash, and while this in itself would fine, I think a large amount of anti-zerg feelings come from the fact that one of those playstyles is far more likely to "get its way" when the two interact: most of the time, encountering a zerg means you must play the game by zerg rules or die. So while I would like to adopt a live-and-let-zerg mindset, it's functionally impossible to do so in game.

(I know it's possible for small groups to wipe a zerg; what I'm saying is not that that can't happen, but that the odds are heavily stacked in favor of one playstyle against another.)

It seems that at one point, ZOS was trying to make it easier for the different kinds of playstyles to flourish in different parts of the PVP map (for instance, by boosting the rewards for town captures), but this seems to have gone on the backburner with the introduction of Battlegrounds. I'm actually quite optimistic about Battlegrounds, but I do hope that ZOS doesn't ignore the plight of small-groupers in Cyrodiil going forward.

Derra · March 2017

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

zyk · March 2017

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

But it does in the context of map play. Too many players in one place should mean not enough in another. First and foremost, I think Cyrodiil AvA is about winning the Alliance War.

Unfortunately, map play has a lot of issues that have never been addressed. The worst is for those who play during the most popular intervals. They can play for 8 hours in an evenly matched campaign, fighting vigorously for every point gained, only to lose all progress x100 when the map gets rolled uncontested during a low pop interval. It can be hard to truly care about the map over 30 days when that happens every day.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

HoloYoitsu · March 2017

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

Not really, I can tell you exactly what happens when guilds like invictus/dreadlords go to IC to "farm" with 10-15 ppl: they get crap TV and leave within 20-30 min every single time. Those groups get really sloppy about district control and our small groups split up and take every single district other than the one they're in as they fight the boss. They practically never have ppl that break off to try and contest things with us because they are scared to death of us farming them - it's why they don't go into IC without 10+ ppl to begin with.

These are the ppl that will stand on their flag with 10 ppl and refuse to come off it to fight 3 of us. I've learned to not bother trying to get a couple more ppl in grp to go head to head with them, because invariably by the time we're ready those groups have already given up on their farm and left.

So no they don't really impact overland much with their absence.

zyk · March 2017

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Not really, I can tell you exactly what happens when guilds like invictus/dreadlords go to IC to "farm" with 10-15 ppl: they get crap TV and leave within 20-30 min every single time. Those groups get really sloppy about district control and our small groups split up and take every single district other than the one they're in as they fight the boss. They practically never have ppl that break off to try and contest things with us because they are scared to death of us farming them - it's why they don't go into IC without 10+ ppl to begin with.

These are the ppl that will stand on their flag with 10 ppl and refuse to come off it to fight 3 of us. I've learned to not bother trying to get a couple more ppl in grp to go head to head with them, because invariably by the time we're ready those groups have already given up on their farm and left.

So no they don't really impact overland much with their absence.

I am referring to PVE guilds who go to IC mostly for sewer grinding and achievements.

Derra · March 2017

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

But it does in the context of map play. Too many players in one place should mean not enough in another. First and foremost, I think Cyrodiil AvA is about winning the Alliance War.

Unfortunately, map play has a lot of issues that have never been addressed. The worst is for those who play during the most popular intervals. They can play for 8 hours in an evenly matched campaign, fighting vigorously for every point gained, only to lose all progress x100 when the map gets rolled uncontested during a low pop interval. It can be hard to truly care about the map over 30 days when that happens every day.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

I´m sorry but turning npc resources and keeps for a pointless campaign win isn´t the driving factor in pvp for me.

I go to cyrodiil to fight actual other players in a huge open world battlefield (with keeps and resources being of the same relevance as a football field essentially - it´s vital to play the game but the game is still played with another team not the field itself).

The deciding factor for what makes pvp (player versus player - not npc resources or whatever) in this game is numbers.

zyk · March 2017

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but turning npc resources and keeps for a pointless campaign win isn´t the driving factor in pvp for me.

I go to cyrodiil to fight actual other players in a huge open world battlefield (with keeps and resources being of the same relevance as a football field essentially - it´s vital to play the game but the game is still played with another team not the field itself).

The deciding factor for what makes pvp (player versus player - not npc resources or whatever) in this game is numbers.

That is not what I am saying at all.

If everyone in Cyrodiil was engaged in map play and playing strategically, zerging nikel with 70 players probably wouldn't happen because it would leave the faction vulnerable elsewhere -- which would matter because in this hypothetical, everyone cares about being vulnerable elsewhere.

For me, fights without context are extremely boring. That is why I play an objective based game.

Derra · March 2017

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but turning npc resources and keeps for a pointless campaign win isn´t the driving factor in pvp for me.

I go to cyrodiil to fight actual other players in a huge open world battlefield (with keeps and resources being of the same relevance as a football field essentially - it´s vital to play the game but the game is still played with another team not the field itself).

The deciding factor for what makes pvp (player versus player - not npc resources or whatever) in this game is numbers.

That is not what I am saying at all.

If everyone in Cyrodiil was engaged in map play and playing strategically, zerging nikel with 70 players probably wouldn't happen because it would leave the faction vulnerable elsewhere -- which would matter because in this hypothetical, everyone cares about being vulnerable elsewhere.

For me, fights without context are extremely boring. That is why I play an objective based game.

It´s pvp in/with/around objectives. But i don´t think many people think of the keeps as the deciding factor in their motivation to go to cyrodiil.

Could be wrong though.

I never understood leaderboard players and i think campaign scores alltogether were a big mistake in esos design.

Anazasi · March 2017

KingJ wrote: »

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

And dodge rolling around the same rock or tree does? I'm really confused.........

Satiar · March 2017

In general people hate zergs because they hate to lose. It's why they'll happily serf their own Zerg but pitch a fit if they get run down themselves.

NACtron · March 2017

Overall zerging requires less skill than small scale these days but that is mostly due to a lack of competitive 24 man raids.

If you had large raids fighting large raids the raid with best tactics, startegy and execution will win the day not numbers. It takes skill practice and teamwork to accomplish victory. If large scale PvP is actually competive.

It takes a lot of work to balance a raid of 24 players. With correct gear, ult rotation, player skill and ability, mastering raid roles etc. grueling trial and error. Not to mention movements and calls the raid lead makes to outsmart the opponent. I think it is just as challenging as being in a good 4 man group. For diffrent reasons. There has to be competive zergs to fight in order to make it challenging however

There some guilds out there who run large raids and provide a challenge but not as many there used to be. Meaning less large competitive play and more large casual raids being uncontested on the field.

Elong · March 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

A coordinated, disciplined large group is not going to chase squirrels unless you poke them, or have a history of doing so. These guys are focused on the map or other big groups. I don't think most small scalers have a problem with these groups.

It's the "zerglings," the guys who rip like tissue paper if you catch them alone but will happily zerg you down with 10x the numbers and then teabag/rage whisper their superiority that give "zergs" a bad name.

This.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2017

I hate zergs because of the bravery they bestow on bad players. A zergs target should be another zerg, but so often it turns out to be solo players.

Sandman929 · March 2017

Because ESO is filled to capacity with peacocks just waiting to tell you how they hate zergs and that they're better than others.

Sandman929 · March 2017

NACtron wrote: »

Overall zerging requires less skill than small scale these days but that is mostly due to a lack of competitive 24 man raids.

If you had large raids fighting large raids the raid with best tactics, startegy and execution will win the day not numbers. It takes skill practice and teamwork to accomplish victory. If large scale PvP is actually competive.

It takes a lot of work to balance a raid of 24 players. With correct gear, ult rotation, player skill and ability, mastering raid roles etc. grueling trial and error. Not to mention movements and calls the raid lead makes to outsmart the opponent. I think it is just as challenging as being in a good 4 man group. For diffrent reasons. There has to be competive zergs to fight in order to make it challenging however

There some guilds out there who run large raids and provide a challenge but not as many there used to be. Meaning less large competitive play and more large casual raids being uncontested on the field.

It would be great if there were more players trying to optimize group builds rather than constantly chasing the Ultimate 1vX'er fantasy. When you come up against a large, coordinated group it's very impressive. It's tricky to put together though because there are so many egos in Cyrodiil that keeping a coordinated group together (bickering, posturing, bragging, etc) is a whole different challenge. Everyone thinks they're a leader and no one knows how to follow.

Minno · March 2017

Sandman929 wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Overall zerging requires less skill than small scale these days but that is mostly due to a lack of competitive 24 man raids.

If you had large raids fighting large raids the raid with best tactics, startegy and execution will win the day not numbers. It takes skill practice and teamwork to accomplish victory. If large scale PvP is actually competive.

It takes a lot of work to balance a raid of 24 players. With correct gear, ult rotation, player skill and ability, mastering raid roles etc. grueling trial and error. Not to mention movements and calls the raid lead makes to outsmart the opponent. I think it is just as challenging as being in a good 4 man group. For diffrent reasons. There has to be competive zergs to fight in order to make it challenging however

There some guilds out there who run large raids and provide a challenge but not as many there used to be. Meaning less large competitive play and more large casual raids being uncontested on the field.

It would be great if there were more players trying to optimize group builds rather than constantly chasing the Ultimate 1vX'er fantasy. When you come up against a large, coordinated group it's very impressive. It's tricky to put together though because there are so many egos in Cyrodiil that keeping a coordinated group together (bickering, posturing, bragging, etc) is a whole different challenge. Everyone thinks they're a leader and no one knows how to follow.

It's not that everyone think they are a leader, it's that after work/school/family time you only have so many hours to play. Why waste it trying to commit to a leet group when in 2 hours you'll need to go to bed?

It's why so many people watch streams for build advice, why the bridge/chal have fights all the time, and why we have zergs.

Battlegrounds will definitely be interesting knowing that you can commit to a quick few matches of pvp, see your ranking, and give these players a way to progress that open world cyro fails to do.

Sandman929 · March 2017

Minno wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Overall zerging requires less skill than small scale these days but that is mostly due to a lack of competitive 24 man raids.

If you had large raids fighting large raids the raid with best tactics, startegy and execution will win the day not numbers. It takes skill practice and teamwork to accomplish victory. If large scale PvP is actually competive.

It takes a lot of work to balance a raid of 24 players. With correct gear, ult rotation, player skill and ability, mastering raid roles etc. grueling trial and error. Not to mention movements and calls the raid lead makes to outsmart the opponent. I think it is just as challenging as being in a good 4 man group. For diffrent reasons. There has to be competive zergs to fight in order to make it challenging however

There some guilds out there who run large raids and provide a challenge but not as many there used to be. Meaning less large competitive play and more large casual raids being uncontested on the field.

It would be great if there were more players trying to optimize group builds rather than constantly chasing the Ultimate 1vX'er fantasy. When you come up against a large, coordinated group it's very impressive. It's tricky to put together though because there are so many egos in Cyrodiil that keeping a coordinated group together (bickering, posturing, bragging, etc) is a whole different challenge. Everyone thinks they're a leader and no one knows how to follow.

It's not that everyone think they are a leader, it's that after work/school/family time you only have so many hours to play. Why waste it trying to commit to a leet group when in 2 hours you'll need to go to bed?

It's why so many people watch streams for build advice, why the bridge/chal have fights all the time, and why we have zergs.

Battlegrounds will definitely be interesting knowing that you can commit to a quick few matches of pvp, see your ranking, and give these players a way to progress that open world cyro fails to do.

Fair enough, that's probably the case for some. But there are others who simply refuse to see the difference between coordinated AvA and "stoopid zerglingz LOLZ".

KingJ · March 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

And dodge rolling around the same rock or tree does? I'm really confused.........

LOS takes Way more skill than running with 30-40 people spamming light attacks,or running over small groups and solo players.

No_True_Scotsman · March 2017

All off these erudite responses ... I actually think it's really simple.

It's a bunch of kids that hate losing whining about losing. They think dying in a video game represents a severe enough loss of face to throw around insults. Thus, "you zerg, and zerging is bad!" Oh, is it?

Minno · March 2017

KingJ wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

And dodge rolling around the same rock or tree does? I'm really confused.........

LOS takes Way more skill than running with 30-40 people spamming light attacks,or running over small groups and solo players.

But also requires potatoes to follow you to that tree one by one so you can PvP.

2-3 mobile groups = the best PvP without having to hide behind a tree watching rocks turn all day.

Soul_Demon · March 2017

Sandman929 wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Overall zerging requires less skill than small scale these days but that is mostly due to a lack of competitive 24 man raids.

If you had large raids fighting large raids the raid with best tactics, startegy and execution will win the day not numbers. It takes skill practice and teamwork to accomplish victory. If large scale PvP is actually competive.

It takes a lot of work to balance a raid of 24 players. With correct gear, ult rotation, player skill and ability, mastering raid roles etc. grueling trial and error. Not to mention movements and calls the raid lead makes to outsmart the opponent. I think it is just as challenging as being in a good 4 man group. For diffrent reasons. There has to be competive zergs to fight in order to make it challenging however

There some guilds out there who run large raids and provide a challenge but not as many there used to be. Meaning less large competitive play and more large casual raids being uncontested on the field.

It would be great if there were more players trying to optimize group builds rather than constantly chasing the Ultimate 1vX'er fantasy. When you come up against a large, coordinated group it's very impressive. It's tricky to put together though because there are so many egos in Cyrodiil that keeping a coordinated group together (bickering, posturing, bragging, etc) is a whole different challenge. Everyone thinks they're a leader and no one knows how to follow.

Isn't that what many of the small mans are? Previous large group members that were better and smarter than the groups that taught them volumes about the game? I don't mean that to demean, but to make a point. Posturing and egos often lead to alienation and no longer being part of the full raids for some players. When that happens the natural evolution seems to be small man groups who now tell others how "bads" are the ones who can gather a full raid of friends together and tolerate one another while they play......seems to me like a self defense mechanism to claim what you are doing is the right thing and what others do is just for bad players, especially when you were part of the very thing you now demonize. "by choice man, by choice"

KingJ · March 2017

Minno wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

And dodge rolling around the same rock or tree does? I'm really confused.........

LOS takes Way more skill than running with 30-40 people spamming light attacks,or running over small groups and solo players.

But also requires potatoes to follow you to that tree one by one so you can PvP.

2-3 mobile groups = the best PvP without having to hide behind a tree watching rocks turn all day.

I love small group pvp 2-4 people sometimes 6 is what I usually pvp with most fun I have in this game and why I still play it itbut if I'm the only one on or no one wants to pvp,I run solo and better than when I ran in large Coordinated group.I ran in a 20-24 man for a long time I have respect for those groups with coordinated leaderships and define roles and work together well.My issue is with the mindless zergs who lag out the server or chase me and my small group of friends from aleswell farm back to our gate.

Sandman929 · March 2017

KingJ wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

I swear people post these every 2-3 months.Running In a zerg require barely any skill.

And dodge rolling around the same rock or tree does? I'm really confused.........

LOS takes Way more skill than running with 30-40 people spamming light attacks,or running over small groups and solo players.

But also requires potatoes to follow you to that tree one by one so you can PvP.

2-3 mobile groups = the best PvP without having to hide behind a tree watching rocks turn all day.

I love small group pvp 2-4 people sometimes 6 is what I usually pvp with most fun I have in this game and why I still play it itbut if I'm the only one on or no one wants to pvp,I run solo and better than when I ran in large Coordinated group.I ran in a 20-24 man for a long time I have respect for those groups with coordinated leaderships and define roles and work together well.My issue is with the mindless zergs who lag out the server or chase me and my small group of friends from aleswell farm back to our gate.

No one likes getting run down, especially when it takes the chasers forever. But the other side of that is, no group likes the annoying little gnats that keep poking at them hoping to siphon off 1-2 at a time either.

Ghost-Shot · March 2017

Elong wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

A coordinated, disciplined large group is not going to chase squirrels unless you poke them, or have a history of doing so. These guys are focused on the map or other big groups. I don't think most small scalers have a problem with these groups.

It's the "zerglings," the guys who rip like tissue paper if you catch them alone but will happily zerg you down with 10x the numbers and then teabag/rage whisper their superiority that give "zergs" a bad name.

This.

Exactly, I'm reminded of a situation we had with Aenlir and I believe Mojican sometime last year. We were running a full 24 and were dealing with about 2 and a half raids of pact militia at the Ales mine, someone in group saw Aenlir and started to chase them. Steve said its only 2, leave them be. A couple minutes later we had PM bunched up and were moving in for our bomb, next thing you know Aenlir and whoever he was with had cold fire siege set up on us, it didn't kill us and we wiped PM anyway but it created a very serious annoyance and the 2 of them were hunted down. After that we had sort of an unofficial agreement, we won't zerg you down if you don't make yourself a problem.

Then you get people like "the top 10 NB NA" who I will actively hunt down with 20 people all day long for being a trash can of a human being.

Elong · March 2017

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

A coordinated, disciplined large group is not going to chase squirrels unless you poke them, or have a history of doing so. These guys are focused on the map or other big groups. I don't think most small scalers have a problem with these groups.

It's the "zerglings," the guys who rip like tissue paper if you catch them alone but will happily zerg you down with 10x the numbers and then teabag/rage whisper their superiority that give "zergs" a bad name.

This.

Exactly, I'm reminded of a situation we had with Aenlir and I believe Mojican sometime last year. We were running a full 24 and were dealing with about 2 and a half raids of pact militia at the Ales mine, someone in group saw Aenlir and started to chase them. Steve said its only 2, leave them be. A couple minutes later we had PM bunched up and were moving in for our bomb, next thing you know Aenlir and whoever he was with had cold fire siege set up on us, it didn't kill us and we wiped PM anyway but it created a very serious annoyance and the 2 of them were hunted down. After that we had sort of an unofficial agreement, we won't zerg you down if you don't make yourself a problem.

Then you get people like "the top 10 NB NA" who I will actively hunt down with 20 people all day long for being a trash can of a human being.

If I try to pick off your backline, I'm fully aware of the consequences. And that's totally fair.

Drdeath20 · March 2017

People need something to cry about.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2017

People hate organized zergballs. People don't hate unorganized, massive blobs of players.

Kilandros · March 2017

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

Not really, I can tell you exactly what happens when guilds like invictus/dreadlords go to IC to "farm" with 10-15 ppl: they get crap TV and leave within 20-30 min every single time. Those groups get really sloppy about district control and our small groups split up and take every single district other than the one they're in as they fight the boss. They practically never have ppl that break off to try and contest things with us because they are scared to death of us farming them - it's why they don't go into IC without 10+ ppl to begin with.

These are the ppl that will stand on their flag with 10 ppl and refuse to come off it to fight 3 of us. I've learned to not bother trying to get a couple more ppl in grp to go head to head with them, because invariably by the time we're ready those groups have already given up on their farm and left.

So no they don't really impact overland much with their absence.

Would love to see these mythical 10+ Invictus IC groups.

DisgracefulMind · March 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

Not really, I can tell you exactly what happens when guilds like invictus/dreadlords go to IC to "farm" with 10-15 ppl: they get crap TV and leave within 20-30 min every single time. Those groups get really sloppy about district control and our small groups split up and take every single district other than the one they're in as they fight the boss. They practically never have ppl that break off to try and contest things with us because they are scared to death of us farming them - it's why they don't go into IC without 10+ ppl to begin with.

These are the ppl that will stand on their flag with 10 ppl and refuse to come off it to fight 3 of us. I've learned to not bother trying to get a couple more ppl in grp to go head to head with them, because invariably by the time we're ready those groups have already given up on their farm and left.

So no they don't really impact overland much with their absence.

Would love to see these mythical 10+ Invictus IC groups.

Like really tho, when the hell are we in IC? lmao

Last time I went in there, there was like 5 people with us xD And that was last week, before that I think barely any of us have gone in since Christmas.

And, believe me, no one is scared to death of fighting any of you all.

No_True_Scotsman · March 2017

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t hate zergs.

I just don´t enjoy that "bring more people" has no counterplay.

Another factor here is IC. When one of those 500 player "gaming organization" guilds has an IC sewer night, it puts their entire faction in a bad position.

Not really, I can tell you exactly what happens when guilds like invictus/dreadlords go to IC to "farm" with 10-15 ppl: they get crap TV and leave within 20-30 min every single time. Those groups get really sloppy about district control and our small groups split up and take every single district other than the one they're in as they fight the boss. They practically never have ppl that break off to try and contest things with us because they are scared to death of us farming them - it's why they don't go into IC without 10+ ppl to begin with.

These are the ppl that will stand on their flag with 10 ppl and refuse to come off it to fight 3 of us. I've learned to not bother trying to get a couple more ppl in grp to go head to head with them, because invariably by the time we're ready those groups have already given up on their farm and left.

So no they don't really impact overland much with their absence.

Would love to see these mythical 10+ Invictus IC groups.

Like really tho, when the hell are we in IC? lmao

Last time I went in there, there was like 5 people with us xD And that was last week, before that I think barely any of us have gone in since Christmas.

And, believe me, no one is scared to death of fighting any of you all.

LOL. Suuuuure.

Kirsi is probably observing that whenever we see Invictus tabards in IC, it's orbiting or inside said amount of EP. I doubt it's that many Invictus alone. I should know, I practically live there when I play ESO.