Racial Affinity

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2017

Artis wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Generally true.
And that is in the game!
After all, just because your character is Altmer, doesn't mean you have to spend skill points in your magica passives, right?
There, doesn't being right make you happy now!

Not so much anymore, because I"m always right or if I'm not 100% sure in my knowledge, I don't make a statement. But yes, it's pretty good to be reminded.

And no, it's not in the game as much as we want it. Not putting skill points means having absolutely no characteristics, but it makes no sense if others have them.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, I know. I DO know about dominant and recessive genes, thank you very much. It is taught in schools around here, you know...
But that was not the question, now was it?

You can't blame people for thinking you don't, because of how you're saying what you're saying. Like below.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The matter was, would a child of two redheaded parents be getting a genetic feature from a completely different racial group like african skin pigmentation, just because it was born in africa?

JUST because he was born there? No. Can two white parents have a darkskinned child? Yes.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, some adaptation is possible (read back on my "cultural passives" suggestion) but not to the extent of african skin pigmentation, agreed? That would take many generations...

Thank god we don't care about pigmentation and care about stamina, magicka and other passives. And it very well can be possible for two stamina parents to have a magicka child, why not.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And you keep arguing it should be possible.

And so I say, not so, redheaded parents kid won't have african skin pigmentation.

Because IT IS possible. See? That's why don't be surprised that it's not clear that you know genetics. I probably heard about it, but that's it.

Yes, white parents can have kids with african skin pigmentation. Google it. For example, here's a list of a few famous cases.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Because, in the elder scrolls universe, "affinity for magic" is an elven trait, not a dominant or recessive human trait at all!

Said who? Elves and humans are races, not different biological species. And Bretons and Imperials (yes, Imperials. See skyrim) have affinity for magic even though they are humans/Men. And Wood elves and Orsimer have no affinity to magic, even though they are Mer. Then there are Argonians in Morrowind, too, who aren't mer. Not touching older pre-3D TES.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Let me make it more clearly... quick Elder scrolls universe history lession...
Dawn era:
Mer evolve on aldmeris, have magical affinity, maybe through connection to the aedra, maybe that's just their haughty myth.
Men evolve on Youkuda with some stamina affinity, and Atmora with toughness and some cold resistance.
- Merethic era:
Mer leave aldmeris, take over tamriel, split into different groups, these aldmer settle different regions and slowly start to adapt to them, one way or another - auridion (altmer) and high rock , hammerfell (sinmer), skyrim (falmer snow elves), valenwood (bosmer), cyrodil (ayleids), dwemer under the land (though actually they might have been here before all the others, noone really knows for sure), conquer the beastfolk in elsweyr and argonia, squabble with the dragons, split off religious splinter groups (chimer, orsimer - the latter with a pretty extensive genetic transformation thanks to daedric price involvement) and so on...
Later on, Men come there was well, from atmora (nedes), fight the mer, defeat them and build their own kingdoms in some cases (skyrim), are conquered and enslaved by mer in others (high rock).
- 1st Era:
Dragons are gone now, mortals rule... and fight each other. Direnni elves interbreed with their nede slaves, chimer and dwemer fight each other and the nedes who are slowly turning into the nords of today... eventually Alessian rebellions sweep through cyrodil as nedic slaves overthrow their ayleid masters (and start their journey on becoming imperials), only the direnni withstand them, but eventually also get absorbed into the bretons, dwemer vanish and chimer are cursed into dunmer (again, daedric intervention), and youkudans land in hammerfell, kill the sinmer and everything else with their curved swords and take the land for their own.
Lots of fighting, changing borders, alliances made and broken, et cetera.

The point is... there isn't even a common origin for redguards and altmer! And they never intermingled on a major scale either. So why would the altmer magica affinity gene be in the redguard genepool???

Add times to this, how much time did it take for those subraces who adapted to change? And the beastfolk that you mentioned - what about their affinities? Again, argonian in morrowind come to mind.

But the most important thing here is that your own post proves you wrong. I'll bold what's important. See that? So turns out, you can change your racial passives from magicka to stamina depending on where you live? Or who did they breed with so that bosmer have stamina affinity but not magicka. And how come the same can't happen to Men races? Then it's not a problem to add a tribe that was breeding with elves or whatever and is carrying the genes.

Also really? You think there was no intermingling with altmer? Like really, you're sure that redguards took no slaves and *** no sinmer? But more importantly - who cares about major scale? Most of us are more than happy to play exceptions while all redguard NPCs have stamina passives and altmer - magicka, etc.

Anyway, case in point - bosmer. Magicka origin, didn't breed with no humans (there were none in valenwood, since the come from North(atmora) and West(Yokuda) much later , yet - we have elves with stamina affinity. That's what is very clear from your history lesson.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...because unlike the bretons, redguards never intermingled with elves!
They killed them instead!
If that so hard to understand?

Yes it is. Because elves never intermingled with anyone in valenwood, yet we have bosmer who have absolutely no magicka affinity but stamina affinity instead. And according to you can bosmer have magicka passives? You know, because they are elves so definitely carry those genes, right? But we do see that all of them somehow have stamina genes now. So what does it tell us? That stamina gene is dominant and magicka gene is recessive? Or maybe vice versa, doesn't matter, but there definitely are options.Therefore, it shouldn't surprise you if races that aren't known for their magicka affinity will have individuals with those characteristics. Like bosmer. There is no reason they can't have them.

Also, yeah, it's hard to understand that they killed them. Absolutely unbelievable, wars aren't fought like that. Multiple Ra Gada - elven kids were born, I guarantee that. Massive amounts of women ***, elves kept there etc. Or link a source proving otherwise. Without such thing, why wouldn't you follow common sense?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Funny, I keep thinking that is what YOU seem to be doing here... with your arguments to support the notion of how racial attributes should jump over to other races "just because they grew up there". You do know evolution for that takes a little time, right, no matter what the X-men movies say?

No you can't keep thinking anything, because it's my first comment.

You are not the one to say anything about evolution. You just mentioned how elves got stamina passives just because they grew up in valenwood. And I'm not talking about growing up either way. I'm saying that for one particular individual of ANY race it is possible to have any mix of the genes which can result in any mix of racial passives. And we can play that individual of we choose to instead of playing common representatives of their races.

No reason to restrict us and not let us be as effective in magic as possible if we are playing a khajit or argonian or bosmer etc.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Actually... that's not my sayings, but the elder scrolls lore.
And yeah, I expect they only added that "child is race of the mother" part so they wouldn't be bothered by people asking for "hybrids" - or at least that is the most likely explenation.

And agreed, they sort of contrtadict themselves on the bretons. Bosmer are also supposed to have some mannish blood IIRC (possibly deer as well for all we know). Probably they would make up some fluff about how such intermingling was possible back in that era, or how the direnni did it as experiment... or how it takes ages of intermingling before any such effect shows, and more before they breed true, which is my personal choice for fluff explenation...

But that contradiction is not mine, I am just working with what I have...

I know it's tes lore, but if you bring it up, then you're saying it's not dumb. When it clearly is. So yeah it's a dumb explanation and is definitely not a reason not to let us have racials more like in TES when they all had the same cap.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Agreed. Sort of. And they made that decision a looooong time ago, and wrote it into the elder scroll lore...
...
And now people say "change the lore becuase we want to min/max everything" and build arguments to support their point.
And some say "Nay! Don't feed the min/maxxers!" and build counterarguments.
So? What else is new?

They changed the lore with many other things - see my other comment in this thread, for example. Might as well change the lore again. BUT that's not at all about this.

It's about having things like TES games, where we can play any race without feeling that we're gimping ourselves or having any doubts. We could just enjoy the game. Give us that again. No one even asks to change lore. Just change the system to be like in TES games, where all races have the same caps at everything and racials don't mean anything in the endgame (except maybe for some racial flavor - like swimming speed, lava damage etc).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...I am the one saying the union of two caucasian parents would not produce a child with aftican pigmentation, you say otherwise, but I an the common sense denier???
...
Yeah, suuuuure.

Yes sure. That's exactly why. You don't science at all, I see. Yes two caucasian parents would produce a child with african pigmentation and vice versa. It is possible. You keep denying science.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And if you had actually -read- what I post instead of just decreing me, you would realize that I am NOT arguing against that. I mean...

I point out that you have no idea what you're talking about when you bring redheaded parents and african pigmented children. I happen to science more than you and I hate when people bring up their pseudo-knowledge and use a few terms here and there just so their argument seems stronger.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
...that IS pretty much what I am suggesting there, is it not?
I liked that in older TES games. I'd love to have it in ESO.

Yes this is good enough and everyone would be happy with this. But either way, you were wrong saying no bosmer or redguard can have magicka affinity. Common sense and science both say that they can. And you are the one who started bringing science into it when you mentioned natural selection. And in this case you applied it poorly. I had to point that out.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Well, as far as stats go anyways, you may remember that the different races -also- had different resistances... maybe not in the earliest games, but they did later on, and all that ought to be preserved ans its part of what made the elder scrolls so nifty in my eyes... but we are talking stats here, and there I really am not set on the current mess. (after all, among my alts I have dunmer stamblades, argonian DKs, nord sorcerors... not exactly the super-effective way to play, yes?)

Different resistances are ok. That means different races feel it easier in different conditions. But DPS passives = some races are just bad and not needed. There's no reason to play them for anyone who cares about his performance.

That is a really long quote. I just wanted to point something out. Bosmer are known to be a mixed-race of elves. My contention is that the Bosmer are essentially to elves what Bretons are to humans. The ancient Ayleids intermixed with them (already a human-mixed breed of Mer) and the Bosmer themselves really are randy as rabbits and are known to have mixed with the local Cyrodiils in their neck of the woods (Ie: Imperials). Bosmer are not a pure breed like Altmer, specifically because unlike Altmer they do not segregate themselves and they do not have the same kind of social stigma for intermarrying outside of highly arranged marriages. Everything about Altmer life has a rule. Bosmer generally just have green pact. I'll leave my thoughts at that.

I think we realize that there is always variance in a population, but it would be ludicrous not to recognize that certain groups have different adaptations. Caucasian people for instance which includes semitic groups of peoples, are well adapted to the consumption of milk products. Native Americans gain more nutrition from corn, based on a study I've read. Sickle cell anemia, which is commonly an african trait makes individuals more resistant to malaria. I could go on and on about these kinds of unique and fascinating biological differences. The point I'm making is that even in the real world people groups tend to have different adaptations often related to the survival conditions of their environment. The world of Elder Scrolls is different than the real world of course, but those differences add to the believability of the world. They make the world feel 'lived in'. I think the baseline racial bonuses are fine, because making it more complex and realistic sounds like a royal headache and furthermore just a means for people to min-max even further. I'd rather they take the path I suggested which would make it possible to be a potent Altmer warrior and a genius Redguard Mage. That's the kind of Tamriel I want to see. I still think they should be oddballs from a thematic point of view. The nature of magic itself in Elder Scrolls is strange. Dragon Magic for instance appears to be stamina-based. Why do I say this? Fus-roh-dah takes a small bit of stamina to release. This suits 'Nordic Physicality' and the exertion of breath. I suspect the Redguard use of Shehai might be similar in this regard, but I do not know. It is my belief that humans at their origin wielded a magic of a different flavor... but that is neither here nor there. I don't really think @TheShadowScout is in disagreement with you as much as you think. I also don't think you need to be part elf to do magic, or part Nord to swing a sword...

TheShadowScout · March 2017

Artis wrote: »

Not so much anymore, because I"m always right

No, you are not, and even saying that makes you an fool.

Artis wrote: »

Not putting skill points means having absolutely no characteristics, but it makes no sense if others have them.

Changing your tune? Your original statement on this was:

Artis wrote: »

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

...and you can have Exactly That! By not putting any skill points into that characteristic. Then your character doesn't have the characteristic your race has.
And suddenly you say... it makes no sense if others of your race have the racial characteristic you don't have???
What do you think "racial characteristic" even means?

Artis wrote: »

JUST because he was born there? No. Can two white parents have a darkskinned child? Yes.
Because IT IS possible. See? That's why don't be surprised that it's not clear that you know genetics. I probably heard about it, but that's it.

Yes, white parents can have kids with african skin pigmentation. Google it. For example, here's a list of a few famous cases.

And I keep saying, not quite.

From the source you quoted:

This fascination for "white" babie stories or "black" baby stories stems from a confusion between phenotype and genotype, and it is fed by journalists who don't do their homework properly.

If you dig deep enough into those stories, it always turns out that both parents have a mixed heritage up the family tree that broadens their genotype.

So, it is possible in parents who are "mixed" in some way. But not in those who are not of mixed race background.
Maybe you should "do your homework properly"?

Artis wrote: »

Said who? Elves and humans are races, not different biological species. And Bretons and Imperials (yes, Imperials. See skyrim) have affinity for magic even though they are humans/Men. And Wood elves and Orsimer have no affinity to magic, even though they are Mer...

Wood elves are not pureblooded anymore (see below), Orsimer are fundamentally changed due to daedric intervention.
Bretons use the "elven intermingling over many centuries" as the defining fluff for their magical affinity!

Artis wrote: »

Add times to this, how much time did it take for those subraces who adapted to change? And the beastfolk that you mentioned - what about their affinities? Again, argonian in morrowind come to mind.

And here you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Or you would know there -are- no times before the first era!
The beastfolk are of completely different origin, again. And noone is really sure what origin exactly either. Quite possible the argonians were a culture long before the elves came to tamriel - there are indications of this.

Artis wrote: »

But the most important thing here is that your own post proves you wrong. I'll bold what's important. See that? So turns out, you can change your racial passives from magicka to stamina depending on where you live? Or who did they breed with so that bosmer have stamina affinity but not magicka.

Men. Bosmer bred with men - or at least that much we have in the lore (see below). From the looks of them, I would not be surprised that there is more to it either... its quite possible that their "green pact" had more effects on them, in an "change their nature" kind of way (due to the deer horns some of them grow... indication of some extensive genetic modification i daresay). But that would be mere speculation...

Artis wrote: »

And how come the same can't happen to Men races? Then it's not a problem to add a tribe that was breeding with elves or whatever and is carrying the genes.

You are describing the Bretons. Again. No problem with it, just that it takes a couple centuries...

Artis wrote: »

Also really? You think there was no intermingling with altmer? Like really, you're sure that redguards took no slaves and *** no sinmer? But more importantly - who cares about major scale? Most of us are more than happy to play exceptions while all redguard NPCs have stamina passives and altmer - magicka, etc.

Nope, they did not. They killed them all. That's in the lore.
As for playing exceptions... again, the powers that be decreed that there are no mmixed races, stat-wise, so any exceptions would come from a different source. Like... additional passives. NOT cherry-picking your favorites.

Artis wrote: »

Anyway, case in point - bosmer. Magicka origin, didn't breed with no humans (there were none in valenwood, since the come from North(atmora) and West(Yokuda) much later , yet - we have elves with stamina affinity. That's what is very clear from your history lesson.

Actually, wrong.
Check Monomyth: Altmeri, it says there:

Some had already fallen, like the Chimer, who listened to tainted et'Ada, and others, like the Bosmer, had soiled Time's line by taking Mannish wives.

See? You are -not- always right as you like to claim, and sometimes have no idea what you are talking about.
So... direnni aldmer intermingled with nedes, and their offspring bred towards magica and became bretons, a human race because there were more nedes in the mix then aldmer. Valenwood aldmer interbred with nedes (most likely once they migrated down through ayleid cyrodil) and their offspring bred towards stamina and became bosmer, a mer race since there were more mer then men in the mix.

Artis wrote: »

Also, yeah, it's hard to understand that they killed them. Absolutely unbelievable, wars aren't fought like that. Multiple Ra Gada - elven kids were born, I guarantee that. Massive amounts of women ***, elves kept there etc. Or link a source proving otherwise. Without such thing, why wouldn't you follow common sense?

From the ESO loading screen info of Nilata Ruins:

Redguard stories say that when the Ra Gada first arrived on these shores, they found Nilata still inhabited by Elves. Having fought the Lefthanded Elves on Yokuda for a thousand years, wherever the newcomers found Elves in Hammerfell, they exterminated them.

Not defeated.
Not enslaved.
Not conquered.
Not driven out.
Exterminated.
Doesn't sound conductive to intermingling now does it...

Artis wrote: »

No you can't keep thinking anything, because it's my first comment.

And again, personal attacks when your arguments are found wanting.

Artis wrote: »

I know it's tes lore, but if you bring it up, then you're saying it's not dumb. When it clearly is. So yeah it's a dumb explanation and is definitely not a reason not to let us have racials more like in TES when they all had the same cap.

No, I am saying that is the frame we are to work in. Just like the frame includes magic, or the existence of deadra, which clearly is not so in reality (as far as wel know).

Artis wrote: »

I point out that you have no idea what you're talking about when you bring redheaded parents and african pigmented children. I happen to science more than you and I hate when people bring up their pseudo-knowledge and use a few terms here and there just so their argument seems stronger.

And yet your examples of "science" keep failing you, because they are ALWAYS dependent on mixed race in the equation.
You keep trying semantic sleight of hand here...

Artis wrote: »

Yes this is good enough and everyone would be happy with this. But either way, you were wrong saying no bosmer or redguard can have magicka affinity. Common sense and science both say that they can. And you are the one who started bringing science into it when you mentioned natural selection. And in this case you applied it poorly. I had to point that out.

And I keep saying, your "science" always relies on mixed race in the equation. You keep arguing special cases, when in the end you just want to cherry-pick your passives and make up some "oh, special case, woo" fluff that the original game developers specifically declined for their universe.

Artis · March 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

The explanation in Oblivion was silly, Talos shouted the jungle away lul. The explanation in ESO didn't contradict anything.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition was written by a Mer, it wasn't in Cyrodillic at first, Heimskr then translated it. "Jungle" was a mistake made by Heimskr, it was supposed to be "extensive uplands", according to Phrastus.

Why would people grow jungle? "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", it literally means "because we want to, problem?". It's not impossbile that something like that can happen, so, there's no contradiction whatsoever. Yes, it's silly that people would do something like that, but "People had grown tired of the jungle so Talos shouted it away" is just equally silly.

Hope this is clear for you.

And again, it wasn't "a fail" lol. It is as silly as Bethesda's explanation in Oblivion, yes, that's true, but there's no contradiction whatsoever.

Did you read what I wrote at all?

You're saying silly because it makes no sense. Well it does, magic and all. Silly is when it contradicts stuff. And it does. Because it was established that Cyrodil was jungle at the time until Talos fixed it. It was written in the Pocket Guide, which was written by Cinnabar who is alive during Interregnum and who wrote that guide in the present time which means there was jungle at the time of writing the guide. She couldn't not notice it wasn't surrounding IC.
The translation explanation makes no sense and contradicts this. Now they are trying to make it seem that Cinnabar was translating something, but she wasn't. She was describing things how they were. At her time. Which is ESO time.

It is very clearly a contradiction. Oblivion is fine, because we didn't see that jungle and didn't see the place with no jungle at the time where it was supposed to not have/have it.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

That is a really long quote. I just wanted to point something out. Bosmer are known to be a mixed-race of elves. My contention is that the Bosmer are essentially to elves what Bretons are to humans. The ancient Ayleids intermixed with them (already a human-mixed breed of Mer) and the Bosmer themselves really are randy as rabbits and are known to have mixed with the local Cyrodiils in their neck of the woods (Ie: Imperials). Bosmer are not a pure breed like Altmer, specifically because unlike Altmer they do not segregate themselves and they do not have the same kind of social stigma for intermarrying outside of highly arranged marriages. Everything about Altmer life has a rule. Bosmer generally just have green pact. I'll leave my thoughts at that.

How does it matter if a kid always has his mother's race? Or if it doesn't and new racial properties can be evolved for, then how long does it take? And do you understand that the way it happens is that first you start getting exceptions/mutants and then the whole species slowly changes. Which means there's no reason there couldn't be a family which has a lot of interactions of any 2 races in their blood line. Like, there can be a guy whose parents are altmer and redguard and a girl whose parents are altmer and redguard and they meet and their kid meets someone similar etc. Not a new race with new racials , but there can be mutations in any particular race. And why can't we play those mutants?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, you are not, and even saying that makes you an fool.

Yes I am and not it doesn't. Just like saying that the Sun rises in the East wouldn't.
em.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Changing your tune? Your original statement on this was:

Artis wrote: »

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

...and you can have Exactly That! By not putting any skill points into that characteristic. Then your character doesn't have the characteristic your race has.
And suddenly you say... it makes no sense if others of your race have the racial characteristic you don't have???
What do you think "racial characteristic" even means?

Absolutely not changing the tune. You know exactly what I was saying. If all you can do in debate is trying to take someone at his word then go back to argue with your classmates in whichever elementary you're going to. This game is for ages of 18+.

No, what I'm saying is that it makes no sense that all other people have racial passives and you don't have any (not just your race).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I keep saying, not quite.

From the source you quoted:

This fascination for "white" babie stories or "black" baby stories stems from a confusion between phenotype and genotype, and it is fed by journalists who don't do their homework properly.

If you dig deep enough into those stories, it always turns out that both parents have a mixed heritage up the family tree that broadens their genotype.

So, it is possible in parents who are "mixed" in some way. But not in those who are not of mixed race background.
Maybe you should "do your homework properly"?

Facepalm. You got your nose rubbed in the links showing that you're wrong and you keep saying , not quite? Are you even sane? Case in point: it is possible. You were wrong period. Can two white people have a darkskinned baby? YES. THEY CAN. It's not common but it is possible => they can.

And the last paragraph is exactly my point - mixed heritage broadens the gene pool. So can it happen that there's, for example, a redguard whose heritage is such that genes could combine to give him magicka affinity? YES. So there should be no reason I can't play such a redguard. Your position is like "Oh I just want people to suffer and not have fun". You probably want more classes, character-wide achievements and other irreversible choices.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Wood elves are not pureblooded anymore (see below), Orsimer are fundamentally changed due to daedric intervention.
Bretons use the "elven intermingling over many centuries" as the defining fluff for their magical affinity!

Not pure blooded why? Ok, Orsimer are a whole new race. What about breton and bosmer? The whole races were magically changed? Because simple intermingling shouldn't change anything. As you said, a baby has its mother's race. And again, not pureblooded doesn't mean there's no mer or men blood left. So at least here we can have magicka bosmer and stamina breton then. Not even considering other races, at least these two have no reason not to let us choose passives.

Artis wrote: »

Add times to this, how much time did it take for those subraces who adapted to change? And the beastfolk that you mentioned - what about their affinities? Again, argonian in morrowind come to mind.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And here you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Or you would know there -are- no times before the first era!
The beastfolk are of completely different origin, again. And noone is really sure what origin exactly either. Quite possible the argonians were a culture long before the elves came to tamriel - there are indications of this.

Yes I have an idea. No one is talking about times before the first era. It's about game mechanics and other things. Case in point - argonians in morrowind have magicka bonuses.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Men. Bosmer bred with men - or at least that much we have in the lore (see below). From the looks of them, I would not be surprised that there is more to it either... its quite possible that their "green pact" had more effects on them, in an "change their nature" kind of way (due to the deer horns some of them grow... indication of some extensive genetic modification i daresay). But that would be mere speculation....

With what men? You said it yourself - men came from Atmora (far north) and Yokuda (east). THere were no men in Valenwood. Bosmer were mentioned in lorebooks BEFORE men came to Tamriel.

And even if there were men, how would breeding with them change anything if the race only depends on the mother's race?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

You are describing the Bretons. Again. No problem with it, just that it takes a couple centuries...

OK, so no problem with Breton characters choosing their racial passives then?

Now, why can't there be a redguard tribe doing the same, that wasn't mentioned. Just like they come up with a lot of other new stuff. Any race could've been breeding with another race for a couple of centuries.

And would take a couple centuries for what exactly to happen? For the entire generation to have new bonuses? Because we don't care about that, all we need is for SOME such individuals to appear so we can play as them. And that doesn't take centuries.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Nope, they did not. They killed them all. That's in the lore.
As for playing exceptions... again, the powers that be decreed that there are no mmixed races, stat-wise, so any exceptions would come from a different source. Like... additional passives. NOT cherry-picking your favorites.

1. This is BS. And germans committed genocide in USSR, so what? You think they didn't *** or enslave anyone? Please. Educate yourself.
2. Source please. And it better be a good one, explicitly saying that there was absolutely no exceptions. Because there could be. And it better be clear that it's not a translation mistake like cyrodil jungle lol. There's absolutely NO PROBLEM OR REASON not to say that "hey here's some new info - turns they didn't kill all and here is a lore book and a new tribe for you".

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Actually, wrong.
Check Monomyth: Altmeri, it says there:

Some had already fallen, like the Chimer, who listened to tainted et'Ada, and others, like the Bosmer, had soiled Time's line by taking Mannish wives.

See? You are -not- always right as you like to claim, and sometimes have no idea what you are talking about.
So... direnni aldmer intermingled with nedes, and their offspring bred towards magica and became bretons, a human race because there were more nedes in the mix then aldmer. Valenwood aldmer interbred with nedes (most likely once they migrated down through ayleid cyrodil) and their offspring bred towards stamina and became bosmer, a mer race since there were more mer then men in the mix.

According to your history lesson, there were no men there. Which mannish wives did they take? ALso if they did, how did it reflect on bosmer themselves? Kids of those wives were men, not elves. Only elven women can give birth to elves.

Yes I am always right. You are just showing that you have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, it's the lore's fault. It's inconsistent and because of that you contradict yourself.

So... aldmer intermingling with nedes = nede women had nede children and aldmeri women had aldmeri children => no new race appeared. Same with valenwood aldmer. How did the new races appear??

Also, even if they did - then both these races carry magicka and stamina genes, so there's no reason those genes could recombine such that we have a stamina breton or a magicka bosmer.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

From the ESO loading screen info of Nilata Ruins:

Redguard stories say that when the Ra Gada first arrived on these shores, they found Nilata still inhabited by Elves. Having fought the Lefthanded Elves on Yokuda for a thousand years, wherever the newcomers found Elves in Hammerfell, they exterminated them.

Not defeated.
Not enslaved.
Not conquered.
Not driven out.
Exterminated.
Doesn't sound conductive to intermingling now does it...

And germans exterminated jews and there are more examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history So what? Does it mean there were no exceptions? Please.

And again, the most important part is bolded. "Redguard stories" from the loading screen is not a credible source. Not to mention that takes little effort to find exceptions, find a similar tribe somewhere else etc. TES lore was retroactively changed many times to contradict itself even. A lot of new things were added, too. There's no reason they can't add it. And again, there can be other cases/places where redguard and elves could have babies.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

No you can't keep thinking anything, because it's my first comment.

And again, personal attacks when your arguments are found wanting.

There's precisely 0 personal attacks here.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, I am saying that is the frame we are to work in. Just like the frame includes magic, or the existence of deadra, which clearly is not so in reality (as far as wel know).

And in this frame it is very easy to justify having various racial passives within the same race.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And yet your examples of "science" keep failing you, because they are ALWAYS dependent on mixed race in the equation.
You keep trying semantic sleight of hand here...

You obviously don't even science. The examples aren't failing me, they clearly prove my point. There are no pure-bred races. The whole point is that those white people can carry dark skin genes. In that particular sentence you were absolutely wrong.

If there are no mixed genes in tes, then again - how did bosmer appear? Elves were taking mannish wives? Then obviously genes of different races are inherited by a baby. It's in the lore and you found it yourself. Why are you still in denial?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I keep saying, your "science" always relies on mixed race in the equation. You keep arguing special cases, when in the end you just want to cherry-pick your passives and make up some "oh, special case, woo" fluff that the original game developers specifically declined for their universe.

It's not "my" sciences and it's definitely not "science". It's science and you know nothing about it. What you said was wrong. Want me to quote it for you or what? White people CAN have dark babies. You are the one who mentioned natural selection when you clearly had no idea what you were talking about. Next time don't say stuff that is clearly wrong. All this would've been avoided.

I want to pick the passives that fit my play style so I can have fun playing the game I'm paying for. It also makes perfect sense and is lore-friendly to let me do so. Yeah I can play a special case, I am already playing a Vestige. The whole point of TES games is playing a special case. There were people playing freaking khajit dragonborn and you still didn't quit the game. And you won't quit it when they change racials here, on top of that even more people will pay more money. There's no reason both logically and financially not to change them.

At the very least they shouldn't affect damage. Damage passives have to go or be given to every race. There's no reason to play anything but dunmer and altmer for mages right now. I want to see stamina altmer around and I want it to feel diverse and awesome. In TES games all stats and damage had the same ceiling for all races. If we're given that, then I don't care about picking passives. We HAVE TO ASK to pick them namely because they affect the endgame too much.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2017

"RACIAL AFFINITY"

I think PvP says it all. 90 % of population is Altmer, Redguard or Imperial. That is pretty diverse... Out of 10 races we have mostly 3 in pvp...

Some will say that racial passives require some balancing - and in terms of "maxing" that would be correct. Because there is no magicka / heath / stamina caps (or those are just too high). DMG output and max stats should be capped. So for example even if you are Redguard (who has no bonus to max magicka) you could still go for max magicka, with 64 attributes in magicka + set bonus to magicka - you will still hit the "cap". Other races (Altmer for example) would hit this cap sooner, so you could focus your build to something the you are lacking.

btw. I doubt ZOS will do something about this because as long as people buy race change tokens - they have $$$. Racial passives seems to matter much only in PvP. In PvE it is different story. I always thought that ZOS will introduce racial passives "morphs" - so you could adjust it to your play-style & preferences.

Nerouyn · March 2017

I'm with the OP.

Racial learning bonuses are fine and speak to each race having an affinity for different things. Keep those. But do away with the others.

If there has to be that extra layer of character customisation, take a leaf out of the single-player games and let players choose which constellation they're born under.

Dao_Jones wrote: »

When the game first launched, stat caps meant that racial passives were truly just flavor elements.

True to ESO's two-faced nature.

To the crowd who want race to matter they say "Look we have SIGNIFICANT racial bonuses!"

To the crowd who want race not to matter they say "Look soft caps render racial bonuses largely irrelevant."

Though not many were fooled by that and the soft caps were tossed away.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Nerouyn wrote: »

I'm with the OP.

Racial learning bonuses are fine and speak to each race having an affinity for different things. Keep those. But do away with the others.

If there has to be that extra layer of character customisation, take a leaf out of the single-player games and let players choose which constellation they're born under.

Dao_Jones wrote: »

When the game first launched, stat caps meant that racial passives were truly just flavor elements.

True to ESO's two-faced nature.

To the crowd who want race to matter they say "Look we have SIGNIFICANT racial bonuses!"

To the crowd who want race not to matter they say "Look soft caps render racial bonuses largely irrelevant."

Though not many were fooled by that and the soft caps were tossed away.

@Nerouyn

Racial passives shouldn't even give significant bonuses in the first place – but since they do, we should have customizable racial affinities. It wouldn't even be hard to implement

Nerouyn · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

Racial passives shouldn't even give significant bonuses in the first place – but since they do, we should have customizable racial affinities. It wouldn't even be hard to implement

To repeat myself, I'm all for doing away with racial passives. The only ones which aren't problematic are the ones which boost learning speeds for certain skill lines.

Perhaps you're not familiar with the single player games? In some of them players choose a constellation they're born under (completely independent of race) and that gives them certain bonuses, eg. under the mage sign you get bonus magicka. So if there must be that extra level of character differentiation this would be the easiest and most lore friendly way to do it.

A khajiit born under the mage sign would have exactly the same bonuses as an altmer born under the mage sign. If they kept the existing learning speed bonuses that would then be the only difference between the two. Khajiit would learn medium armour faster and altmer destruction staves.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Nerouyn wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Racial passives shouldn't even give significant bonuses in the first place – but since they do, we should have customizable racial affinities. It wouldn't even be hard to implement

To repeat myself, I'm all for doing away with racial passives. The only ones which aren't problematic are the ones which boost learning speeds for certain skill lines.

Perhaps you're not familiar with the single player games? In some of them players choose a constellation they're born under (completely independent of race) and that gives them certain bonuses, eg. under the mage sign you get bonus magicka. So if there must be that extra level of character differentiation this would be the easiest and most lore friendly way to do it.

A khajiit born under the mage sign would have exactly the same bonuses as an altmer born under the mage sign. If they kept the existing learning speed bonuses that would then be the only difference between the two. Khajiit would learn medium armour faster and altmer destruction staves.

@Nerouyn

I wasn't aware of this feature in previous games. I like the thought of constellations in ESO.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · March 2017

Sooooooo many of the balance issues in this game (including the one being discussed in this thread) could be flat-out fixed with the reintroduction of soft caps.

Enslaved · March 2017

About jungles of Cyrodiil...
Some areas in Cyrodiil maybe might have been jungles at some point, before what T.S. did to them. But how on Nirn would there be any jungle surrounding Bruma, for example? Its climate and position is not very suitable for a lush, dense jungle, you know.

I have a theory about what will happen and how these jungles came to be in the first place.

I guess we all did a quest in Stonefalls with that undead army of Dunmer ancestors just west from Davon's Watch. If you choose to go with Saxhleel's plan, you release their souls and thats it. But next quest is pretty interesting for my Cyrodiilic jungles theory.

Saxhleel mender we helped release souls of these ghosts from an ancient battlefield had idea how to fix the shattered lands that were in turmoil after Balreth's rampage trough area. She and few of her disciples sacrificed themselves so the land would flourish in a rapid way, mending wounds in the soil and growing plants. Sadly, Bethesda/Zos don't have way/will to show us aftermath of such a sacrifice. But what if similar would be done in Cyrodiil, during the war of 3 alliances? Maybe it was something Wilderqueen was involved in? Or a joint effort of her and sentient plants we know as the Hist? Maybe Wardens were involved at some point, too?
Now, why would someone "undo" these jungles at some point? Well, to remove the influence of Bosmer/ Saxhleel and their sentient trees from the seat of power IC wheel is, of course. Larger forces are always on the move in TES series, afaik.

TheShadowScout · March 2017

Artis wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, you are not, and even saying that makes you an fool.

Yes I am and not it doesn't. Just like saying that the Sun rises in the East wouldn't.
em.

No you are not always right.
As has been demonstrated by you later on.
And anyone so arrogant to think they are always right as to not even bother to check the lore anymore to make sure is a fool.

Artis wrote: »

No, what I'm saying is that it makes no sense that all other people have racial passives and you don't have any (not just your race).

So you are saying... it makes no sense that all arficans have black skin and thus nice sunlight resistance, and that one albino hasn't... and does not magically get something else in return, like superior night vision or whatnot?
Sorry, I don't think that is how it works.

Artis wrote: »

Case in point: it is possible. You were wrong period. Can two white people have a darkskinned baby? YES. THEY CAN. It's not common but it is possible => they can.

And I keep saying, only if you define "mixed race but white looking due to genetics but still having recessive black genes in the mix" people as "white" people.
Which is exactly the "special case" the powers that be decreed would not exist in ESO (agreed, probably because they did not want to deal with that kind of argument) due to their "all kids get the racial characteristics from their mom" rule.

And any exceptions are only derived over centuries of ongoing intermingling like the Bretons.

Get it yet?
That is the framework we have in the elder scrolls universe.

Artis wrote: »

Not pure blooded why?

Because they "took mannish wives" Sheesh. Can't you read?

Artis wrote: »

Ok, Orsimer are a whole new race. What about breton and bosmer? The whole races were magically changed? Because simple intermingling shouldn't change anything. As you said, a baby has its mother's race.

Thue, they are a bit fuzzy on that. But from all the evidence we have, ongoing intermingling over a LONG peroid of time can have effects. Maybe there is also magic in the mix, like with the oprcs and dark elves origin... but as I kept mentioning, that is speculation.

Doesn't change the fact that obviously there needs to ba a LONG history of intermingling, and possibly magical adaptation to the environment through intervention from a higher power, be it Malacath, Azura or maybe Y'ffre for this to happen.
Long as in centuries of it.
Not as in "I get to cherry pick my characters passives because, uh... their parents were mixed race..."

Artis wrote: »

And again, not pureblooded doesn't mean there's no mer or men blood left. So at least here we can have magicka bosmer and stamina breton then...

No, All Of That means that both men and mer bloodlines mixed into something new, a mixed bloodline with its own set of characteristics. And likely what that "new" turned out to be might be dependent on other factors.
So, again, NO picking -racial- passives. Not for Bretons. Not for bosmer. Not for anyone.
And again, thats why I keep suggesting adding -cultural- passives, and possibly also a -habitat- passive.

Artis wrote: »

1. This is BS. And germans committed genocide in USSR, so what? You think they didn't *** or enslave anyone? Please. Educate yourself.

I probably know more about that then you. But this is not WW2, this is tamriel history. A fictional universe, where we have fictional lore to work with. And the fictional lore says, "extreminate!" (kudos to all who read this in dalek voice)

Artis wrote: »

According to your history lesson, there were no men there. Which mannish wives did they take? ALso if they did, how did it reflect on bosmer themselves? Kids of those wives were men, not elves. Only elven women can give birth to elves.

Artis wrote: »

Yes I am always right. You are just showing that you have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, it's the lore's fault. It's inconsistent and because of that you contradict yourself...

No, you are not right. You claimed therew as no intermingling, without checking the lore, and the lore had intermingling. So you were wrong, plain and simple, and are just too arrogant of a fool to admit it.

Yes, sometimes the lore is a bit iffy.
I'd prefer if it wasn't, but that's what we have.
My reaction to this is try and work with the lore as it is.
Yours sems to be thinking that you know better then the lore and thus all should bow to your delusions of insight.
Go make up your own universe then!
But don't expect the world to follow you just because you are overly enarmored with your own mental misadventures.

As for the results of intermingling... yes, it probably took a couple of centuries, and possible some tweaking by an aedric power or nature magic, or whatever (Like I keep thinking, those deer antlers some bosmer grow certainly would suggest mannish wives haven't been the only intermingling they done). But over a long peroid of time, it can obviosuly happen, while on a small scale the powers that be decided it won't.

And that is all there is to your arguments of how you are so special that you should be allowed to cheery pick your characters racial passives.

Artis wrote: »

And again, the most important part is bolded. "Redguard stories" from the loading screen is not a credible source.

So, that's your argument? Simply ignoring any source that proves you wrong? The rethoric equivalent of closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala I don't see and hear that"?

Its info from a -licensed- product in the elder scrolls universe.
It is collaborated by the visual evicence in the game - Alik'r from its northern coast way down to Hew's Bane has no elven settlements, only the occasional ayleid ruins.

But it doesn't help your argument, so you decree it as "not credible", when it has way more credibility for this fictional universe then ANYTHING that happened in other universes, fictional or otherwise.

Artis wrote: »

TES lore was retroactively changed many times to contradict itself even. A lot of new things were added, too. There's no reason they can't add it.

And if they did, I wouldn't complain. But they haven't, and there is really no reason they should, as it would not mesh well with all the other lore they built for redguards. So, what reason should they have? Just some greedy fools who think they are entitled to have everyone in the world cater to their desires?

Artis wrote: »

And in this frame it is very easy to justify having various racial passives within the same race.

And in this frame, they specifically stated there would not be various racial passives within the same race, that's what this "kig is mothers race" thing is all about after all. JUST so they would not have to deal with this issue.

Artis wrote: »

The whole point is that those white people can carry dark skin genes. In that particular sentence you were absolutely wrong.

The point is, that those "mixed-race white looking" people carry dark skin genes, but "white" people without mixed race in their ancestry don't. And you keep acting like because those special cases exist, they should set a precedent for all "white" people being able to have dark skinned kids.

You redefine "mixed-race" people as "white" to make your point, but you have to change the definitioons for your argument to work.

And again, the elder scrolls lore states there are no "mixed race" when it comes to passives, just appearance. Which I guess works for skin color, to some extent, but not for magical affinity.

So a redguard with altmer in their ancestry (which would be pretty rare a case) might have light hair and a slight golden taint... but will still have Redguard racial passives. No matter what you say. That is how the powers that be decided it would be in the elder scrolls universe.

Until and unless there is centuries of constant intermingling, at which point a new race would form and breed true. Possibly with a mix of magica and stamina passives, it could happen. But since there obviously was no such intermingling between "kill all elves" redguards and "yuck, lower race" elves...

Artis wrote: »

I want to pick the passives that fit my play style...

Yes, we get that.
And you think they should throw out everything Elder Scroll lore related to accomodate your wish for super-effectiveness.
And you offer flimsy "special case" arguments why it should be possible, contrary to the universe developers going out of their way to make lore saying it isn't.

Artis wrote: »

At the very least they shouldn't affect damage.

...and if we drop all the rest of the argument about cherry-picking your passives, and agree to only talk about this part...
...then I'd be with you on it!

As I keep saying, I totally would not mind at all if they changed the passives to remove their high impact on endgame damage! As long as they keep it in the flavor that comes with the elder scrolls lore!

I want to see redguards with stamina advantages, and altmer with magica advantages, et cetera... for LORE reasons... but I don't care two tugs of a dead d... uhm... I guess I better not use that quote, huh? Anyweays, I care little what form those advantages take.

A fixed amount that is a hefty boost at first, but becomes neglectible later? Count me in!
A bonus not to totals, but to something else, resource regeneration perhaps? Count me in!
So other idea? Bring it on, let's talk about it!

WuffyCerulei · March 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Sorry I don't agree with this

This is a staple in MMO's and especially in Elder scrolls games, the fact is that ingame these races are literally different from each other on cellular levels and have different aedric and daedric influences on them. Dunmer, orsimer, bosmer specifically, then the beast races Khajiit and argonian have their own weird mojo's with the moons of lorkhan and the hist for argonians.

It's part of the lore and will always be part of the games. Don't bring in Real life issues with skin pigment issues into this game we love

Nerouyn · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

I wasn't aware of this feature in previous games. I like the thought of constellations in ESO.

The uesp wiki is a great source of info for both ESO and the single player games.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Birthsigns

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Birthsigns

The signs themselves weren't very balanced so couldn't just be dropped into ESO as is.

Eg. in Morrowind (and to a slightly lesser extent Oblivion) the Atronach sign was pretty much a must have for spellcasters. With it (plus gear) you could achieve 100% spell absorption. That not only made you immune to all magical attacks but it provided the only non-cheating / mod means to regenerate magicka without sleeping or drinking potions. It also completely negated the altmer's huge weaknesses to magical effects.

In Skyrim and ESO the birthsign system changed to operate as mundus stones. I like that for being more flexible.

But ESO's racials are a huge pain in the butt and regressing to the birthsign system might both appease players who want that extra level of permanent character customisation while also allowing everyone to play whichever race and playstyle they want without having to gimp themselves.

Artis · March 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No you are not always right.
As has been demonstrated by you later on.
And anyone so arrogant to think they are always right as to not even bother to check the lore anymore to make sure is a fool.

In this thread I absolutely am. And it's not about the lore, it's about you being a fool and saying something about natural selection which you have no idea what it is.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So you are saying... it makes no sense that all arficans have black skin and thus nice sunlight resistance, and that one albino hasn't... and does not magically get something else in return, like superior night vision or whatnot?
Sorry, I don't think that is how it works.

No, what I'm saying is what you quoted. It makes no sense that other players in an MMO game where people play with and against each other will have bonuses while you won't. That's why not spending skill points just to not have magicka altmer(for example) is not an option.

How can you put words in someone's mouth if you are writing this RIGHT UNDER the quote and can just scroll up to see the context of the conversation? That's really weird. The context is the game and you mentioned not spending skill points to get racials.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I keep saying, only if you define "mixed race but white looking due to genetics but still having recessive black genes in the mix" people as "white" people.
Which is exactly the "special case" the powers that be decreed would not exist in ESO (agreed, probably because they did not want to deal with that kind of argument) due to their "all kids get the racial characteristics from their mom" rule.

And any exceptions are only derived over centuries of ongoing intermingling like the Bretons.

Get it yet?
That is the framework we have in the elder scrolls universe.

No. You were wrong period. Stop being in denial. It is POSSIBLE. Special case is good enough. No reason why we can't play a special case.

Again, the sentence about bretons.. facepalm. Seriously, that's not how natural selection/evolution works. You are talking about the whole new race. I don't care about that. The first mutants start appearing in the first couple of generations already. No need for centuries to pass.

Or define intermingling. Because you contradict yourself. So which is it? Evolution? Or mother's race? Or what is intermingling?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Not pure blooded why?

Because they "took mannish wives" Sheesh. Can't you read?

So WHAT??? Those mannish wives would have Men children, not elves. Only bosmer mothers can give birth to bosmer. And they didn't take mannish husbands or even if they did - who cares? You said it yourself - a baby has its mother's race.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Thue, they are a bit fuzzy on that. But from all the evidence we have, ongoing intermingling over a LONG peroid of time can have effects. Maybe there is also magic in the mix, like with the oprcs and dark elves origin... but as I kept mentioning, that is speculation.

Doesn't change the fact that obviously there needs to ba a LONG history of intermingling, and possibly magical adaptation to the environment through intervention from a higher power, be it Malacath, Azura or maybe Y'ffre for this to happen.
Long as in centuries of it.
Not as in "I get to cherry pick my characters passives because, uh... their parents were mixed race..."

No, we have no evidence. What we have is that they didn't think it through. Or that evolution works and genes and everything and the "scientist" who wrote about the mother's race was wrong. Just like here we used to think the Earth was flat. They just didn't discover recessive genes and all yet. But we know. And in this case, again, there's no reason one can't play a redguard who had altmer ancestors and, hence, magicka affinity. Since bosmer evolved into being all stamina just by taking mannish wives. Or how do you think it works?

No, there doesn't need to be a long history of intermingling. IF evolution and genes etc works - then you'll see genes combining in different ways already in the first generations. No one is asking for WHOLE new races of magicka redguards and khajits. But having exceptions and genetic mutants IS POSSIBLE ALREADY.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, All Of That means that both men and mer bloodlines mixed into something new, a mixed bloodline with its own set of characteristics. And likely what that "new" turned out to be might be dependent on other factors.
So, again, NO picking -racial- passives. Not for Bretons. Not for bosmer. Not for anyone.
And again, thats why I keep suggesting adding -cultural- passives, and possibly also a -habitat- passive.

No, that makes 0 sense. Just describe step-by-step how that would happen then? Bloodlines mix into something new? How? Nonsense. All babies have their mother's race.

YES to picking racial passives. It's lore-friendly as shown in lore. Elves can get stamina bonuses by taking mannish wives. And it's not a step-function it's a gradual process where more and more kids in every new generation get those traits. Players will be more than content playing a magicka khajit of one of the first generations. Nobody asks for the new race and centuries of intermingling.

Picking passives is lore friendly. Or give them all the same cap and then no one cares.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I probably know more about that then you. But this is not WW2, this is tamriel history. A fictional universe, where we have fictional lore to work with. And the fictional lore says, "extreminate!" (kudos to all who read this in dalek voice)

I HIGHLY doubt this one, being raised in the country that lost 1/3 of its population there and having to read about it all the time and go to the ww2 museum since elementary, including 2-3 classes just about ww2 on different steps of education.

The fictional lore says "redguard stories say" that they were exterminated. It takes ZERO effort to fill in the blanks and write about a small tribe somewhere on outskirts of hammerfell where elves and redguards lived in peace and intermingled.

Again, that's the same lore that said about cyrodil jungle first, then about removing that jungle when oblivion was released, then changing it again with the release of ESO. There is no reason it can't be conveniently changed. There are multiple precedents already.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, you are not right. You claimed therew as no intermingling, without checking the lore, and the lore had intermingling. So you were wrong, plain and simple, and are just too arrogant of a fool to admit it.

No buddy, I was right. You are the one who said the following. I simply used this to show you inconsistencies.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Let me make it more clearly... quick Elder scrolls universe history lession...
Dawn era:
Mer evolve on aldmeris, have magical affinity, maybe through connection to the aedra, maybe that's just their haughty myth.
Men evolve on Youkuda with some stamina affinity, and Atmora with toughness and some cold resistance.
- Merethic era:
Mer leave aldmeris, take over tamriel, split into different groups, these aldmer settle different regions and slowly start to adapt to them, one way or another - auridion (altmer) and high rock , hammerfell (sinmer), skyrim (falmer snow elves), valenwood (bosmer), cyrodil (ayleids), dwemer under the land (though actually they might have been here before all the others, noone really knows for sure), conquer the beastfolk in elsweyr and argonia, squabble with the dragons, split off religious splinter groups (chimer, orsimer - the latter with a pretty extensive genetic transformation thanks to daedric price involvement) and so on...
Later on, Men come there was well, from atmora (nedes), fight the mer, defeat them and build their own kingdoms in some cases (skyrim), are conquered and enslaved by mer in others (high rock).

You are the one in denial and the arrogant fool here.

There were no men on Tamriel for bosmer to mate with. Bosmer were mentioned as bosmer before any humans in valenwood. They took mannish wives later, when they already were bosmer. So you need to check the lore and the timeline, not me. Bosmer became bosmer due to living in Valenwood and adapting. So yes, without intermingling you can get racial properties. Yes, just because of living there. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Valenwood:_A_Study, also pocket guide to the empire.http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Valenwood

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yes, sometimes the lore is a bit iffy.
I'd prefer if it wasn't, but that's what we have.
My reaction to this is try and work with the lore as it is.
Yours sems to be thinking that you know better then the lore and thus all should bow to your delusions of insight.
Go make up your own universe then!
But don't expect the world to follow you just because you are overly enarmored with your own mental misadventures.

Yes it is iffy no matter what you prefer. The TES lore is pretty bad, no need to pretend it's perfectly thought off. It was also changed and new stuff was added. No reason not to give different passives and explain it in lore. And no, you live in the world of own mental misadventures. Your "history lesson" quoted above proves just that.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

As for the results of intermingling... yes, it probably took a couple of centuries, and possible some tweaking by an aedric power or nature magic, or whatever (Like I keep thinking, those deer antlers some bosmer grow certainly would suggest mannish wives haven't been the only intermingling they done). But over a long peroid of time, it can obviosuly happen, while on a small scale the powers that be decided it won't.

And that is all there is to your arguments of how you are so special that you should be allowed to cheery pick your characters racial passives.

And how do you think they took centuries? That all bosmer were mages and then suddenly all at once all the babies were born with stamina affinity? Please. That's a gradual process that starts in early generations. No reason a player can't play that. But either way, you're wrong. There were no mannish wives and they wouldn't do anything anyway, if the kid has the mother's race. That reference was just to show that they don't live aldmeri ways anymore. They became bosmer before any men in Valenwood. That's written in lore, see links above. They became what they are due to adapting, not to intermingling.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So, that's your argument? Simply ignoring any source that proves you wrong? The rethoric equivalent of closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "lalala I don't see and hear that"?

Its info from a -licensed- product in the elder scrolls universe.
It is collaborated by the visual evicence in the game - Alik'r from its northern coast way down to Hew's Bane has no elven settlements, only the occasional ayleid ruins.

But it doesn't help your argument, so you decree it as "not credible", when it has way more credibility for this fictional universe then ANYTHING that happened in other universes, fictional or otherwise.

Ahahaha and what is your argument? That some crap was written on the loading screen?? It's not anywhere in game and only appeared on the loading screen of ESO.

Of course it has no settlements. When someone conquers you, you will be a slave or otherwise live in their settlements. Also, a lot of landmass is still not shown. Can always come up with something that lives there and fits changing the racials.

It has no credibility since it wasn't thought off. It was invented just in this game. No reason not invent, similarly, a way to have different racial passives. Absolutely no reason. So don't bring lore into this. It can be changed and was changed many times. That's not why you are against. Then why?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And if they did, I wouldn't complain. But they haven't, and there is really no reason they should, as it would not mesh well with all the other lore they built for redguards. So, what reason should they have? Just some greedy fools who think they are entitled to have everyone in the world cater to their desires?

Then what are you complaining about? We aren't asking to not make corresponding changes in the lore. It can be done so that it meshes with the redguard lore very well. There could always be a Second wave that they forgot to mention. Or some renegades from Ra gada. They already did changes that didn't mess with lore well, and no one cares. And yes, there's no reason not to cater to paying customers. That's why the tes universe was created to begin with. And removing pressure from the players and letting them relax and play whichever race they like looks- and lore-wise is a smart and welcome change.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And in this frame, they specifically stated there would not be various racial passives within the same race, that's what this "kig is mothers race" thing is all about after all. JUST so they would not have to deal with this issue.

And now you're contradicting yourself again. So which one is it? Mother's race or intermingling? We already know and it's in lore that races can evolve and change passives. On the other hand, sure, let's assume the mother's race thing and look at bosmer again. They adapted to the forest, that's how they changed. Then for sure, no reason not to let us pick a breton whose family moved to Hammerfell a while ago so now he has stamina passives or a redguard whose family ended up on Vardenfell so he has magicka or fire passives.

If it's intermingling - then there WILL be mixed races, because the process is gradual. If it's mother's race - then we know that adapting works. Both examples are proven by the existence of bosmer and the lore being clear about them adapting to the forest. And that's legit lore from the lore book, not from a loading screen.

So which one is it?

p.s. The lore says "

Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. "

So yes, one more time you were wrong. There are mixed races. Traces of the father's race can be present. So genetics works. So then in just a couple of generations we can have a redguard with magicka affinity. There you have it, straight from the lore.
There's an example of this in game too. In stonefalls we have a Nord and Dunmer couple. The kids have their father's race, they are Nord, even though the mother is Dunmer.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The point is, that those "mixed-race white looking" people carry dark skin genes, but "white" people without mixed race in their ancestry don't. And you keep acting like because those special cases exist, they should set a precedent for all "white" people being able to have dark skinned kids.

You redefine "mixed-race" people as "white" to make your point, but you have to change the definitioons for your argument to work.

And again, the elder scrolls lore states there are no "mixed race" when it comes to passives, just appearance. Which I guess works for skin color, to some extent, but not for magical affinity.

So a redguard with altmer in their ancestry (which would be pretty rare a case) might have light hair and a slight golden taint... but will still have Redguard racial passives. No matter what you say. That is how the powers that be decided it would be in the elder scrolls universe.

Until and unless there is centuries of constant intermingling, at which point a new race would form and breed true. Possibly with a mix of magica and stamina passives, it could happen. But since there obviously was no such intermingling between "kill all elves" redguards and "yuck, lower race" elves...

No, there are no white people. There are genes. No, not all white people can have dark kids. And it doesn't matter. We are all good with NPCs having their native passives. We can play those whose parents COULD have dark skinned kids. That's all.

How would that be a pretty rare case? Most couples we meet in the game are interracial. And yes sure, it can be a rare case, whatever. No reason not to let us play that rare case. You know what else is a rare case? Being the last dragonborn. Being a reborn Nerevarine. Escaping from Coldharbour without a soul and defeating Molag Bal. We play rare cases more often than not. No reason not be able to play a redguard with altmer ancestry.

Or even scrap that. We were robbed of a soul in coldharbor. They could also do some experiments and magically change our passives, trying to model and understand how Orsimer changed when their Daedra was transformed. There. Another lore friendly explanation.

Yes there was such intermingling. Or could always be added to the lore. Or are you saying there are no interracial couples iwth altmer in the game? You don't need whole races to intermingle. Again - we don't care about creating new races. A few exceptional redguard like that can appear, though. And we want to be able to play them.

Redguards aren't "kill all elves". If they are, then why did they stop? There are still elves out there. There are a lot of elves in redguard cities too.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yes, we get that.
And you think they should throw out everything Elder Scroll lore related to accomodate your wish for super-effectiveness.
And you offer flimsy "special case" arguments why it should be possible, contrary to the universe developers going out of their way to make lore saying it isn't.

First of all, it's not throwing out anything lore related. The lore proves that races can change by adapting and by mixing genes of father and mother as well. Where do the go out of their way or make lore say it? They explicitly say:

Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. "

And they explicitly say

Over time and through generations, these early settlers adapted to the woods. They learned stealth and cunning by studying their new prey. Eventually, they became Wood Elves, or Bosmer

Second of all, yes, if something is better and the lore can be changed to accomodate it - it must be changed. Just like they changed it with the cyrodil jungle. Twice.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...and if we drop all the rest of the argument about cherry-picking your passives, and agree to only talk about this part...
...then I'd be with you on it!

As I keep saying, I totally would not mind at all if they changed the passives to remove their high impact on endgame damage! As long as they keep it in the flavor that comes with the elder scrolls lore!

Since they aren't going to change passives so that they don't affect the endgame, we need to be able to pick them. As I showed again already - the lore confirms it is possible to change racials by adapting or by mixing genes of the parents. So it would be in agreement with the lore.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I want to see redguards with stamina advantages, and altmer with magica advantages, et cetera... for LORE reasons... but I don't care two tugs of a dead d... uhm... I guess I better not use that quote, huh? Anyweays, I care little what form those advantages take.

A fixed amount that is a hefty boost at first, but becomes neglectible later? Count me in!
A bonus not to totals, but to something else, resource regeneration perhaps? Count me in!
So other idea? Bring it on, let's talk about it!

Sorry, the first paragraph makes 0 sense and again makes you look like one of those people who just troll and want others to suffer. That same brigade that doesn't want account wide achievements, race change tokens etc and wants players to not have fun and be forced to plan too much instead of playing.

HOW would you who has what advantage? In TES games you would always meet altmer warriors or khajit mages and you wouldn't know that they have disadvantages and are weaker. All advantages or disadvantages you'd see are what YOUR tool tips would say. And you would be free to pick your racials to be classic, so you would see altmer with magicka advantages. Other than that - it shouldn't bother you, others should be able to play what they want. In armor you won't see their races anyway unless they have tails. In PvP your strategy doesn't depend on your opponent's race whatsoever, only on their class/build. In PvE.. Again, in single-player TES games you'd meet redguard mages etc all the time as both your friends and enemies. And still meet them in ESO. Just look at VDSA for example - Champion Marclaud is a breton who is a stamina warrior using Fighter's Guild's skills, the 4th stage boss is a redguard who's using magic, etc. A lot of NPCs you meet aren't classic too. You have a whole bunch of altmer and breton warriors, for example.

TheShadowScout · March 2017

Artis wrote: »

In this thread I absolutely am.

In your mind you may be "always right". In reality, any who make such claims are too arrogant to admit they may not know everything. But as you have already shown, outside of your delusion you are not -always- right. Since you have clearly stated things about elder scrolls lore that are untrue.
And yet are too arrogant to admit you were wrong about them.
And i expect that arrogance is what led you to being wrong about them in the first place... people who are so convinced they are right rarely take the time to verify their opinions after all.

Artis wrote: »

No, what I'm saying is what you quoted. It makes no sense that other players in an MMO game where people play with and against each other will have bonuses while you won't. That's why not spending skill points just to not have magicka altmer(for example) is not an option.

Reeeally? Let's review:

Artis wrote: »

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

Review that sentence. Again.
All you are saying is that being born in one race does not mean you have all the characteristics.
And i agree - you only have them if you spend the skill points, and if you don't spend the points... you don't have them. As your words have it.
And other players who spend the skill points have them.

Are you now trying to say that it makes no sense for you that some people have something just because they spend skill points on it, and other people don't? That's pretty silly, isn't it?
I mean what's next... will you say that "It makes no sense that other players in an MMO game where people play with and against each other will have skills they spent points on while you won't if you don't."???
I doubt you want to say that. But this is how your words read.

Now, I of course also know what you mean... you mean that you think just because someone is a member of one race, they nonetheless should not be denied the option to have racial characteristics from a completely different race.
You think you should be allowed to cherry-pick your passives.
That you find it unfair in some way that you cannot ignore the lore someone once wrote in the elder scrolls universe, saying that altmer are gifted in magic, and redguards are natural warriors, due to various more or less defined fluff... elven blood, generations upon generations of natural selection for the best mages on one side, and the best swordsmen on the other... and you grasp at something, anything to affirm your position. And think your opinion trumps that of the developers who came up with the ESO universe in the first place.

And I disagree.

And in the end, the only argument you bring is the one that the game developers long ago decided to declare impossible in their universe - mixed race background.
I say again, It Is NOT Possible - in the Elder Scrolls Universe. People are magically locked into their mothers race, characteristic-wise at least, and only in extreme cases and over long times two races may merge for a new race to evolve. Since we know no such new race evolvced from the history in the old elder scrolls games... which do play a while after the current second era... we know it won't happen in ESO. Period.

And as I keep telling you, that is how it works in the elder scrolls universe... yes, races can merge over centuries, change through the slow natural selection through their environment... or in an instant through divine (or daedric... more often aedric...) acts - and become a brand new race, with a completely new set of racial characteristics. But any "mixed ancestry" person in the elder scrolls universe will only be mixed in their appereance, NOT in the racial characteristics aka passives, by words of the great makers.

Accept this.
Or petition them to change that part of their lore.
But unless and until they do change it... your arguments are sort of invalid. And you can now stop your circular argument "My arguments would be valid if they changed that, so becaue I bring those arguments they have to change it" - not something that is very senseful in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to work within the fluff framework we are given instead of assuming the whole world will change to accomodate my personal opinions. And so I keep trying to think of other ways, ways that work within the frame we have. Lesser effect for racial passives. Added cultural passives. Added birthplace passives.

Artis wrote: »

I HIGHLY doubt this one, being raised in the country that lost 1/3 of its population there and having to read about it all the time and go to the ww2 museum since elementary, including 2-3 classes just about ww2 on different steps of education.

So did we. Its required here in all schools. And since I also have some interest in history, and a friend of mine studied the whole thing at the university... not to mention, I grew up with the tales of relatives who were there... I know a thing or two.
And for your information, no -country- lost 1/3 of its population... not even the soviet union with a staggering 25-30 million dead bodies. Out of 200 million. Sure, some regions or districts might have had 1/3 casulties. Heck, some towns they fought over probably got over 50%. Region-wise, I think Belarus got the worst of it in the death toll with up to 25% or so of the population... although from what I heard from people who -actually- were there here, some of that may have been because many white russians fought with the nazis against the red army, and later got "purged" by stalin and swept under the rug as "war casulties". Even some who surrendered to the brits at wars end.
But that is an completely different story... and not related to ESO.

Artis wrote: »

There were no men on Tamriel for bosmer to mate with. Bosmer were mentioned as bosmer before any humans in valenwood. They took mannish wives later, when they already were bosmer. So you need to check the lore and the timeline, not me. Bosmer became bosmer due to living in Valenwood and adapting. So yes, without intermingling you can get racial properties. Yes, just because of living there. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Valenwood:_A_Study, also pocket guide to the empire.http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Valenwood

Funny how those sources all mention the green pact and Y'ffre in turn with the "adaptation"... and as you may recall, that -was- the other way to change racial characteristics I kept mentioning, right? (as well as bosmer deer horns. Can't forget the deer horns!

Which by the way are a pretty good indication that someone else was involved in the creation of the bosmer come to think of it. I mean, they probably didn't inherit those from any intermingling, unless they are -way- more kinky then I always thought...)

Artis wrote: »

Yes it is iffy no matter what you prefer. The TES lore is pretty bad, no need to pretend it's perfectly thought off. It was also changed and new stuff was added. No reason not to give different passives and explain it in lore.

Yeah, the lore is sometimes spotty. Happens when a story grows, and they try to fit on new ideas over time.
But no reason to give free passive selection when it has not been there before, and won't be there later.

Artis wrote: »

And how do you think they took centuries? That all bosmer were mages and then suddenly all at once all the babies were born with stamina affinity? Please. That's a gradual process that starts in early generations. No reason a player can't play that.

Only if there was such a process ongoing.
So, please... take the lore from the third era, and show me the new race that evolved from altmer and redguards somewhen during the second era.
If you find one, then we can talk about playing an "early example".
But if all you can find in the third era games fluff is stamina-redguards... well, then it didn't happen.

Artis wrote: »

Ahahaha and what is your argument? That some crap was written on the loading screen?? It's not anywhere in game and only appeared on the loading screen of ESO.

So, now loading screens are not in the game, are they?
Suuure.

I expect a great many people who stared at a great many loading screens for longer then they liked might disagree here...

Artis wrote: »

Of course it has no settlements. When someone conquers you, you will be a slave or otherwise live in their settlements.

And if they exterminate a people, they vanish and leave only bones and ruins behind.
Guess what we see of elven culture in Alik'r?

Artis wrote: »

Also, a lot of landmass is still not shown. Can always come up with something that lives there...

Now that I can agree to. But not for "changing" the racial characteristics... but for a different race with differeent characteristics. We know there are some. Maormer. Goblins. Possibly Reachmen... they could be just barbaric bretons, or they could have their own set of characterisitscs somewher between breton and nede... that would be for the game developers to decide, both options are equally likely. Same for a few other races that only recently vanished, like Kothringi or Lilmothiit... but that is an entirely differen discussion.

Artis wrote: »

That's not why you are against.

Sure is. I am against anything that goes against the basic race lore - like altmer and bretons being known being magically gifted (though many are warriors instead of mages), redguards for being natural warriors (though some are mages instead of warriors), bosmer for hunting skills (though they also have mages), nords aod orcs for lots of toughness (and still have some mages), khajiit for lots of thieves (that one has no exceptions I know of though!

)...

How that lore should be portrayed? That is open to discussion... as I keep saying, I'd like it if the advantage became a lot less noticable, so people would not be pigeonholed into one setup if they want to chase endgame-worthyness, but could get there with other races as well. Not in the least because over half my characters are not super-effective combinations... because I make my characters for a character idea, and not for chasing that last percentage point of damage.

Artis wrote: »

So which one is it? Mother's race or intermingling?

Both are in the lore. Mothers race on an individual basis, intermingling in the history books.

Since characters are individual... they get to go with "mothers race".

And there you have it.

Artis wrote: »

Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. "

So yes, one more time you were wrong. There are mixed races. Traces of the father's race can be present. So genetics works. So then in just a couple of generations we can have a redguard with magicka affinity. There you have it, straight from the lore.
There's an example of this in game too. In stonefalls we have a Nord and Dunmer couple. The kids have their father's race, they are Nord, even though the mother is Dunmer.

The "Kids" were from an eralier marriage. Remember the nord settles there after the akaviri invasion? Which was... drumroll... ten years before ESO. So the kids would have been well on their waay to become the warriors we fought besides by the time their dad married the dunmer woman...

And yes, there can be mixed races.
(Jagar Tharn comes to mind... though noone really knows how much of his ancestral claims are actually true of course)

Bearing the traits of their mothers race.
With traces of their fathers race.

Traces, not traits. As in, "you can by looking at the kid it was a mixed marriage". Dunmer with blue eyes. Altmer with black hair. Dusky nords. Whatever.

No carte blanche to cherry pick your characters racial passives as you keep arguing.

Artis wrote: »

No, there are no white people. There are genes. No, not all white people can have dark kids.

...so, first there are no white people, then not all of them can have dark kids... make up your mind!

Or just let it be and agree that it was just an example, that you are right about genes, but that a certain collection of genetic characteristics is designated as "caucasian" (aka, "white" in common peoples language) and we use the word for examples people can understand without having to science too hard, yes?

Artis wrote: »

Or even scrap that. We were robbed of a soul in coldharbor. They could also do some experiments and magically change our passives, trying to model and understand how Orsimer changed when their Daedra was transformed. There. Another lore friendly explanation.

That one is actually more likely then the mixed race thing in the eso fluff.
Of course, any such experiment probbaly would look... well... you know how Molag Bals experiments end up looking?
But who knows? if your character had stayed in that cell in the tutorial until it was their turn to be experimented upon... they might have enjoyed a chance to get their passives changed. And probably a nice little dissection afterwards, knowing those daedra...
But that wouldn't make for a good game-story, now would it...

Artis wrote: »

Redguards aren't "kill all elves". If they are, then why did they stop? There are still elves out there. There are a lot of elves in redguard cities too.

According to the lore, they were. Thousands of years ago.
And stopped when they reached the end of the Alik'r and got into fighting with the bretons and imperials and orcs instead.
And since that was a while ago... things change. Hard to keep up hatred towards elves when they live far away and are not an immidiate threat, right? Not over dozends of generations.

Artis wrote: »

Since they aren't going to change passives so that they don't affect the endgame, we need to be able to pick them.

You can pick them. Together with your race. As intended.
And they might change them. Its possible after all. They have done it before...
Oh, I agree, they are not likely too. Since they want to sell racechanges to the FotM chasers.

But there is no "need" here - need denotes something you cannot do without, and you can easily do without the most effective race combination. You may need more skill to reach the same aresults as one who does indeed chase the super effectiveness, but you can do without it just as well.

Artis wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I want to see redguards with stamina advantages, and altmer with magica advantages, et cetera... for LORE reasons... but I don't care two tugs of a dead d... uhm... I guess I better not use that quote, huh? Anyweays, I care little what form those advantages take.

A fixed amount that is a hefty boost at first, but becomes neglectible later? Count me in!
A bonus not to totals, but to something else, resource regeneration perhaps? Count me in!
So other idea? Bring it on, let's talk about it!

Sorry, the first paragraph makes 0 sense and again makes you look like one of those people who just troll and want others to suffer. That same brigade that doesn't want account wide achievements, race change tokens etc and wants players to not have fun and be forced to plan too much instead of playing.

If YOU cannot find any sense in it, that is your shortcoming. It makes perfect sense to me. I want the racial theme outlined in the lore preserved. The lore that states that altmer are gifted in the arcane arts, and redguards are natuirally talented warriors. You know, the thing that is usually in the race descriptions? In the games and such?

I just don't care how that translates into practical game effect - as long as the theme of the lore remains, I am happy. As long as altmer have some passives that translate as "gifted in the arcane arts" I care little how big the bonus is in the end. And neither if its on top of everything, or just reaching that top sooner.

And yes, I do recall our disagreements about account wide achievements. Never arguend against race change though (even though I did argue agaist the token, and would have preferred it an more immersive way... but alas, I can see whay they did it like this, since character info is only loaded when logging a character in, so it makes sense for them to require the change to happen from the login screen...)

I also disagree with your general notion indicating that people need to be handed everything on a silver platter to "have fun" You keep saying, you don't have fun unless the game gives you everything right away - all achievements on alts, the best passives cherry picked for your playstyle despire your character race... probably riding and crafting research account wide too, heck, you sound like someone who wanted all characters to be ready made so you can have "fun" playing them.
I am afraid in this case a MMORPG is the wrong kind of game for you. You want something without character development, where you can grab an character archetype and jump right into the endgame... ESO it ain't.

But instead of looking for a game like that, you think ESO should change for you.
And I keep disagreeing.

Artis · March 2017

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

In this thread I absolutely am.

In your mind you may be "always right". In reality, any who make such claims are too arrogant to admit they may not know everything. But as you have already shown, outside of your delusion you are not -always- right. Since you have clearly stated things about elder scrolls lore that are untrue.
And yet are too arrogant to admit you were wrong about them.
And i expect that arrogance is what led you to being wrong about them in the first place... people who are so convinced they are right rarely take the time to verify their opinions after all.

In this thread I am. Showed you quotes from lore, called you out on your crap about natural selection which you obviously had no idea what you were talking about. No, I didn't state anything without references to lore. Or references to YOUR history lesson.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Review that sentence. Again.
All you are saying is that being born in one race does not mean you have all the characteristics.
And i agree - you only have them if you spend the skill points, and if you don't spend the points... you don't have them. As your words have it.
And other players who spend the skill points have them.

Are you pretending to be dumb just to troll? I wrote that sentence, so you read it again if you don't see what I meant. We are talking about racial balance and inheriting traits. I even explained once again what I meant. Look, this is not a liberal news channel, so that "oh but you said this earlier" won't work. I explained what I meant. Don't tell me what I meant, I know better.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Are you now trying to say that it makes no sense for you that some people have something just because they spend skill points on it, and other people don't? That's pretty silly, isn't it?
I mean what's next... will you say that "It makes no sense that other players in an MMO game where people play with and against each other will have skills they spent points on while you won't if you don't."???
I doubt you want to say that. But this is how your words read.

Facepalm. No, this is how YOU read my words, even after my explanation in the following comment.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Now, I of course also know what you mean... you mean that you think just because someone is a member of one race, they nonetheless should not be denied the option to have racial characteristics from a completely different race.
You think you should be allowed to cherry-pick your passives.
That you find it unfair in some way that you cannot ignore the lore someone once wrote in the elder scrolls universe, saying that altmer are gifted in magic, and redguards are natural warriors, due to various more or less defined fluff... elven blood, generations upon generations of natural selection for the best mages on one side, and the best swordsmen on the other... and you grasp at something, anything to affirm your position. And think your opinion trumps that of the developers who came up with the ESO universe in the first place.

Oh ok, so you are trolling. No, the developers who came up with this universe did not develop this game to begin with. These are newer people. Secondly, yes they got it wrong, in previous tes games race did not affect the end-game and here it does. And it's an MMO, so here it's crucial to have the right passives. It makes the difference between getting invited and completing hard content or not. Thirdly, yes, the developers and lore are on my side. See "Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. " So there's no reason we can't create a character with arbitrary number of such iterations in his blood line resulting in different passives.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I disagree.

And in the end, the only argument you bring is the one that the game developers long ago decided to declare impossible in their universe - mixed race background.
I say again, It Is NOT Possible - in the Elder Scrolls Universe. People are magically locked into their mothers race, characteristic-wise at least, and only in extreme cases and over long times two races may merge for a new race to evolve. Since we know no such new race evolvced from the history in the old elder scrolls games... which do play a while after the current second era... we know it won't happen in ESO. Period.

No, you are wrong and don't know the lore. You just want others to not have fun playing. The lore says it explicitly - and I'll repeat:

Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present

This a l2l issue, clearly. There is even evidence to that. The whole breton race for example. Or what else did you mean by "intermingling" if all kids are 100% their mother's race? You still didn't answer. Describe step by step how races "intermingle" and a new race is formed?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And as I keep telling you, that is how it works in the elder scrolls universe... yes, races can merge over centuries, change through the slow natural selection through their environment... or in an instant through divine (or daedric... more often aedric...) acts - and become a brand new race, with a completely new set of racial characteristics. But any "mixed ancestry" person in the elder scrolls universe will only be mixed in their appereance, NOT in the racial characteristics aka passives, by words of the great makers.

And I could care less what you tell me. The lore tells me and shows me that it is how it works. Are you a moron or something? What do you think slow natural selection means and how it works? How do you think races merge? Like they are just living together and then boom - new generation is all new race? Answer this! Describe step by step what happens.

I'll explain you how. New generations have more and more of father "traces" until genetic codes start mixing so that new passives starts coming out. First - in just a few percent of babies, then more and more, until the new race is there. Please, read some books if you want to bring up natural selection.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Accept this.
Or petition them to change that part of their lore.
But unless and until they do change it... your arguments are sort of invalid. And you can now stop your circular argument "My arguments would be valid if they changed that, so becaue I bring those arguments they have to change it" - not something that is very senseful in my opinion.

Me? I prefer to work within the fluff framework we are given instead of assuming the whole world will change to accomodate my personal opinions. And so I keep trying to think of other ways, ways that work within the frame we have. Lesser effect for racial passives. Added cultural passives. Added birthplace passives.

There's no reason to change anything, it's already in the lore. It just has to be implemented. Also lol @ cultural and bithplace passives. Makes way less sense then, say a community of bretons that moved to alik'r desert and had to adapt (like aldmeri in valenwood on a bigger scale).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So did we. Its required here in all schools. And since I also have some interest in history, and a friend of mine studied the whole thing at the university... not to mention, I grew up with the tales of relatives who were there... I know a thing or two.
And for your information, no -country- lost 1/3 of its population... not even the soviet union with a staggering 25-30 million dead bodies. Out of 200 million. Sure, some regions or districts might have had 1/3 casulties. Heck, some towns they fought over probably got over 50%. Region-wise, I think Belarus got the worst of it in the death toll with up to 25% or so of the population... although from what I heard from people who -actually- were there here, some of that may have been because many white russians fought with the nazis against the red army, and later got "purged" by stalin and swept under the rug as "war casulties". Even some who surrendered to the brits at wars end.
But that is an completely different story... and not related to ESO.

LMAO that shows how it's required, if you don't know that Belarus lost almost 1/3 of its population 9.3 mil before and 6.2 after the war. Or 9.2 and 6.3, something like that. . So yeah,you don't know all that much. I won't even ask your GPA, pretty sure I can estimate, seeing your deep knowledge of history, biology and natural selection.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Funny how those sources all mention the green pact and Y'ffre in turn with the "adaptation"... and as you may recall, that -was- the other way to change racial characteristics I kept mentioning, right? (as well as bosmer deer horns. Can't forget the deer horns! Which by the way are a pretty good indication that someone else was involved in the creation of the bosmer come to think of it. I mean, they probably didn't inherit those from any intermingling, unless they are -way- more kinky then I always thought...)

Stop projecting your wet erotic dreams. Link lorebooks or GTFO.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, the lore is sometimes spotty. Happens when a story grows, and they try to fit on new ideas over time.
But no reason to give free passive selection when it has not been there before, and won't be there later.

It is in the lore already. Doesn't require new races or anything. There evidence that passives can change naturally (e.g. bretons) or after daedric intervention (e.g. orcs). The former way of getting other passives is already in game. You can meet any race in any town now. So no reason we can't have a character who was born to a family of redguard who moved on vardenfell generations ago. The latter way - well we are escaping molag bal's prison. He could perform experiments on us trying to figure out how boethia did that thing with malacath and change elven passives to orsimer. So we could be that one test subject whose passives were altered. There's nothing that has to be changed in the lore for that to be implemented.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Only if there was such a process ongoing.
So, please... take the lore from the third era, and show me the new race that evolved from altmer and redguards somewhen during the second era.
If you find one, then we can talk about playing an "early example".
But if all you can find in the third era games fluff is stamina-redguards... well, then it didn't happen.

We don't need the new race. A redguard woman moved to Auridon, all her daughters and their daughters are her race but with more and more altmer genes until at some point (and very soon) mutations start happening. And there we have it, a redguard with altmer passives. So now what? Should I find you redguards in Auridon or you can handle it yourself?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So, now loading screens are not in the game, are they?
Suuure.
I expect a great many people who stared at a great many loading screens for longer then they liked might disagree here...

No, they are NOT IN game. They are OUTSIDE the game. NPCs in game have no way of reading that info, it's not saved anywhere in the game world. Unless you can find me a source in game, of course.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And if they exterminate a people, they vanish and leave only bones and ruins behind.
Guess what we see of elven culture in Alik'r?

False. There are precisely 0 examples of that in history and there's no reason to believe that every single elf was murdered.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Now that I can agree to. But not for "changing" the racial characteristics... but for a different race with differeent characteristics. We know there are some. Maormer. Goblins. Possibly Reachmen... they could be just barbaric bretons, or they could have their own set of characterisitscs somewher between breton and nede... that would be for the game developers to decide, both options are equally likely. Same for a few other races that only recently vanished, like Kothringi or Lilmothiit... but that is an entirely differen discussion.

Yes, for changing racial characteristics too. There can be altmer and redguard living somewhere in those lands. Just like your Kothringi were completely made up at some point and weren't present in the beginning.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Sure is. I am against anything that goes against the basic race lore - like altmer and bretons being known being magically gifted (though many are warriors instead of mages), redguards for being natural warriors (though some are mages instead of warriors), bosmer for hunting skills (though they also have mages), nords aod orcs for lots of toughness (and still have some mages), khajiit for lots of thieves (that one has no exceptions I know of though! )...

And they are. There's absolutely no reason another player can't play a redguard with magicka passives. It won't change anything for you. The bosmer will still be known for hunting skills etc. That comes from lore books, not from what others are playing.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

because I make my characters for a character idea, and not for chasing that last percentage point of damage.

And you do you. Make your characters how you want. But "Because I make" is not an argument to not let others make it the other way around. It doesn't affect your game whatsoever.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Both are in the lore. Mothers race on an individual basis, intermingling in the history books.

Since characters are individual... they get to go with "mothers race".

Yeah and both are not in the way you say they are. Characters are individual but can be of any generation of mothers and fathers of a different race. Characters also escaped from coldharbour where they lost their souls (another new possibility in the lore) and might as well have lost their old racials and acquired new ones.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The "Kids" were from an eralier marriage. Remember the nord settles there after the akaviri invasion? Which was... drumroll... ten years before ESO. So the kids would have been well on their waay to become the warriors we fought besides by the time their dad married the dunmer woman...

Occam's razor. Prove they are from an earlier marriage.The game doesn't say otherwise, so you need to stop creating new entities.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Bearing the traits of their mothers race.
With traces of their fathers race.

Traces, not traits. As in, "you can by looking at the kid it was a mixed marriage". Dunmer with blue eyes. Altmer with black hair. Dusky nords. Whatever.

No carte blanche to cherry pick your characters racial passives as you keep arguing.

Perfect. So new and new traces of a father once they keep mating with that race. Great. So there can be a redguard where all his female redguard ancestors mated with altmer - so that redguard will have a lot of altmer appearnce features: eyes, then skin etc with every new generation. While keeping mother's redguard passives.

Perfect, that's one more reason to cherry-pick passives that you came up with.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...so, first there are no white people, then not all of them can have dark kids... make up your mind!

Or just let it be and agree that it was just an example, that you are right about genes, but that a certain collection of genetic characteristics is designated as "caucasian" (aka, "white" in common peoples language) and we use the word for examples people can understand without having to science too hard, yes?

Both my face and palms are starting to hurt. Yes, no white people - it's just a collection of genes. Yes genes can combine so that people with white skin can have kids with darker skin. Or frost resist. Or max magicka increased.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That one is actually more likely then the mixed race thing in the eso fluff.
Of course, any such experiment probbaly would look... well... you know how Molag Bals experiments end up looking?
But who knows? if your character had stayed in that cell in the tutorial until it was their turn to be experimented upon... they might have enjoyed a chance to get their passives changed. And probably a nice little dissection afterwards, knowing those daedra...
But that wouldn't make for a good game-story, now would it...

Then roll with it. Whatever it takes for races not to matter in end-game so we can all just enjoy how we look and yet don't gimp ourselves and not be able to perform.

Yes it would. ANd yes I know how they end up looking. He took our souls so we kept our appearances but now can't die and can rez infinitely. Sounds good to me. Will let him give me other racials as well. And mind you - you are not forced to do anything. You can still play your classic altmer or whatever.

Here is another lore-friendly way of changing racial passives. Keep the passives and change how you look instead. There are examples of that mechanics in game already. For example, the quest in Greenshade where we are helping that dunmer alchemist to make a potion to make him look like a khajit. Great. We can keep our race and still be called dunmer with respective bonuses but look like, say, a redguard. And it's already shown in the game that it's possible. We won't change the race, we'll change the appearance instead. Instead of cherry-picking racial passives will pick which race we look like.

If you didn't figure it was never about passives. It was about the passives+looks combination. So sure, if picking passives is a problem, let's pick looks instead. The evidence that it's possible and example of it is already in ESO.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

According to the lore, they were. Thousands of years ago.
And stopped when they reached the end of the Alik'r and got into fighting with the bretons and imperials and orcs instead.
And since that was a while ago... things change. Hard to keep up hatred towards elves when they live far away and are not an immidiate threat, right? Not over dozends of generations.

Link to where it's written so, please.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

You can pick them. Together with your race. As intended.
And they might change them. Its possible after all. They have done it before...
Oh, I agree, they are not likely too. Since they want to sell racechanges to the FotM chasers.

But there is no "need" here - need denotes something you cannot do without, and you can easily do without the most effective race combination. You may need more skill to reach the same aresults as one who does indeed chase the super effectiveness, but you can do without it just as well.

It's not about FOTM or anything like that. Not more than the paid race change at least. Anyway, FOTM doesn't care about the race as much as class. Races don't get rebalanced too often.

Btw, send a link to the thread where you're saying how you're against the race change tokens because it makes no sense in lore.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

If YOU cannot find any sense in it, that is your shortcoming. It makes perfect sense to me. I want the racial theme outlined in the lore preserved. The lore that states that altmer are gifted in the arcane arts, and redguards are natuirally talented warriors. You know, the thing that is usually in the race descriptions? In the games and such?

I would agree, but I can't find sense where it's not present. Yes, they tend to be gifted there. Are you now saying that ALL asians are good at math? Pfffft, please. Also the racial theme will still be outlined and preserved in the lore. The lore books won't change - they will still say that.

It's not related to what other players are playing. It's not even related to what NPCs are doing, because you won't see any difference between an altmer and redguard mages among the mobs you're fighting. Does a dunmer mob have more fire resistance than redguard? No idea, I oneshot both. Do you have an idea? Do you see any difference?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I just don't care how that translates into practical game effect - as long as the theme of the lore remains, I am happy. As long as altmer have some passives that translate as "gifted in the arcane arts" I care little how big the bonus is in the end. And neither if its on top of everything, or just reaching that top sooner.

You can pick any passives you want. And it can still be in lore books. Do you see how altmer mobs are giften in arcane arts more than bosmer?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And yes, I do recall our disagreements about account wide achievements. Never arguend against race change though (even though I did argue agaist the token, and would have preferred it an more immersive way... but alas, I can see whay they did it like this, since character info is only loaded when logging a character in, so it makes sense for them to require the change to happen from the login screen...)

I also disagree with your general notion indicating that people need to be handed everything on a silver platter to "have fun" You keep saying, you don't have fun unless the game gives you everything right away - all achievements on alts, the best passives cherry picked for your playstyle despire your character race... probably riding and crafting research account wide too, heck, you sound like someone who wanted all characters to be ready made so you can have "fun" playing them.
I am afraid in this case a MMORPG is the wrong kind of game for you. You want something without character development, where you can grab an character archetype and jump right into the endgame... ESO it ain't.

But instead of looking for a game like that, you think ESO should change for you.
And I keep disagreeing.

Why wouldn't you argue against the race change if it's not lore friendly? And there's nothing about orcs turning redguards massively in any of the lorebooks. But then again, if you didn't - what's the problem with changing racial passives or rather appearance? It's already in ESO, there are quests about it.

No I want character development as well as my achievements being recognized, since I'm the one doing them and not my character. No, ready made characters are boring, I like leveling mine. I like playing at low levels sometimes and seeing how that level increases. I don't want everything right away. I want to have things that make sense to have and that don't hurt anyone.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

@Artis

Though the thread has turned into a lore discussion, are you in favour of implementing customizable racial passives? Could be based on constellations, cultures, nationalities, etc.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2017

Smepic wrote: »

@Artis

Though the thread has turned into a lore discussion, are you in favour of implementing customizable racial passives? Could be based on constellations, cultures, nationalities, etc.

I thought about it too... ZOS could simply introduce racial passives "morphs" - so you could further customize your character.

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I thought about it too... ZOS could simply introduce racial passives "morphs" - so you could further customize your character.

@Tommy_The_Gun

I bring up LotRO again, but have a look at its character creation.

You can choose between various origins, or nationalities, that alter the appearance options. There is also some lore written below. In ESO, however, they could alter the racial passives – so you can decide if you want a boost in magicka, health or stamina (with other bonuses for each race).

Artis · March 2017

@Smepic guess it's lost in that lore discussion. My point is that it is lore-friendly or can be made lore friendly.

So yes, I am in favor. If people don't want 2 races to have the same skills - they could implement different magicka/stamina passives for each race for us to pick from. I would also be happy if caps or something were back or the passives are redesigned.. Whatever it takes for people to not choose between what they like to play and how they want their characters to look.

Duiwel · March 2017

Dang OP you have some character customization skills!

SanderBuraas · March 2017

Duiwel wrote: »

Dang OP you have some character customization skills!

@Duiwel

Thanks, she is called Síle de Tansarville and is based on the character from The Witcher (2). Just waiting for the jester hat on the right to show up in the crown store: