Racial Affinity

Artis

TheShadowScout wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You do realize Nords are only resistant to the cold because they are "TOLERANT" to it due to growing up in a cold region just like Dunmer are "TOLERANT" to heat because Morrowind is Hot, other features such as Khajiit having claws or Argonians being able to breath underwater is genetic but most of it isn't.

You -do- know how natural selection works, right?
Because you see... "tolerant" because you grew up somewhere is one thing... "tolerant" because your ancestors have been growing up somewhere for the last dozend centuries is quite another.

What you are saying is basically that genes don't matter, and an pale, redheaded irish person will magically become just as "tolerant" to sunburn like a black-skinned central african person if they just "grew up" in africa.
I don't think so.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. And the analogy is wrong, redhead pale-skin already means they are not as tolerant to sunburns. But the question is - can people who aren't sensitive to the sun and aren't pale-skinned have kids that are?

And the answer is - yes they can. You can have kids that have qualities their parents don't have, if the recessive genes of parents combined in certain ways. That's how your black-haired and dark-eyed parents can have ginger or blonde kids.

Yes, just growing up somewhere doesn't mean you will be exactly like the natives there (even though it DOES mean that you'll be more used to those conditions than other people of your race), BUT having parents of a certain race doesn't mean you can't have certain properties.

For example, you can be a breton who had some nord ancestors in his blood line and yes you can be tolerant to cold, if both your parents had those recessive genes and they happened to combine.

AshTal

As a long term Argonian player I have always been annoyed by a race with crap passives, The argonian player base had to fight to get the same health bonus as a Nord (why or why did we have to fight to get an identical health bonus to another race) and we still have a terrible potion required passive.

Please can we have either equal racial passives or the ability to choose our racials.

QuebraRegra

coincidence that I've been mulling over making a magicka wood elf NB (read gnome)?

Nelson_Rebel

You are just trying to create a bland no choices matter game, wether you like it or not these races ARE very different from each other. I don't expect a Dunmer to be as capable physically as a khajiit or a khajiit as powerful in magics as a High elf. It's part of their blood and the different Aedric and Daedric beings that are affecting them

Now if they REWROTE all that then sure have at it, but that is also when I leave the game. The races have different affinities and that is not a small lore fact to change, that is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the game. If you change that then I'm sorry it's not elder scrolls and you will turn this game into a boring numb Call of duty with magic online game

Tasear

Haha

I am a bosmer healing mage while lacking max Magicka I think the choice was wise. Most people are going put CP to get more dodge or/and sprint but me? Why would I? I have enough stamina to use both Magicka and stamina support skills. As to say we can't be sure it's not costing them elsewhere.

I do agree to more racial diversity and a new addition to racial passives like bosmer gets boost for using pets

Molydeus

Smepic wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial affinities.

It's funny cause Tamriel has more Racial Diversity than the real world does. Orcs. Elves. Humanoid Reptiles. Humanoid Felines. There's even Humanoid Fox people living somewhere out there hidden. But I'm sure you mean Diversity in the playerbase, cause everyone is choosing the same Races for their stats right? I dunno about that really, a lot of people go against that because of their other preferences.

Your idea though has merit. I'd LOVE to have a Khajiit that gets a Max Magicka bonus, but instead I'm stuck with the same Crit Chance and Weapon Damage passives which are utterly useless on Magicka builds.

@ArchMikem

Almost every character with a magicka build is a High Elf, just because of how good it is. I want people to play what they want without being significantly weaker.

No, there are tons of Breton magicka players.

idk

Smepic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance.

Not in the elder scrolls universe!

Its a distinct part of the elder scrolls lore that some races are just better at some things then other races.
Nords are better at bring tough then Dunmer, Dunmer are better at fire then Argonians, Argonains are better at swimming then all... Bretons are better at magic then Redguards, Redguards re better at swordswinging then Orcs, Orcs are better at bring tough then Redguards. Altmer are better at magic then Bosmer, Bosmer are better at Arrows then Khajiit, Khajiit are better at being catty then everyone...
Live with it!

That being said...

...while I really would not support changing the -racial- passives contrary to elder scrolls lore, I have mentioned several times before there is one thing that could be done - adding cultural passives!

Like, not every breton is born in a castle and learns magic from childhood. What about those born in city homes, where their commoner parents have no money to pay for magic lessions, and thus they grow up working in the family business instead before they are sick of sewing clothes or whatnot and decide to go adventuring? Or the ones who grew up on a farm in the country, working the fields to support their parents in their youth?

So I would think, there could be an addition to the passives, with "culturel passives".

You might get, say, three choices for every race, with a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... one "nobleborn" for magica builds, gold gain and haggling with vendors; one "commonborn" for stamina builds, stealth and crafting and one "countryborn" for toughness, item drop and gathering perks.
Depending on the race those could be different designations... Dunmer would have Nobles, Commoners and Ashlanders, Orsimer could have Trinimac followers, Malacath followers and Wood Orcs; Bretons could have Nobles, Commoners and Countryfolk, Redguards could have Crowns, Forebears and Ash'aba, and so on...

@TheShadowScout

That's what I'm suggesting, though. I wrote "ethnicities", "cultures" and "nationalities" in my thread.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol. I've known healers and magika dps running with smooth fast clears of vMoL on Khajiits and bosmers. No issues.

We chose a game where race does bring passives that help. I find it humorous that someone chose a race because it was the prettiest so thinks the passives should come from another source.

On a more serious note, racial passives are racial affinities. It's semantics. Zos will not make this change. Think crown store race change token. Revenue.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

And as an avid PvP player, my character does well in Cyrodiil. That does not change the fact that her stats are worse than they could be.

I find it humorous that you think the game will remain the way it is now forever. Systems are updated and features are implemented. The current racial passives are one racial affinity – singular – not plural. Learn the difference. I'm suggesting several affinities for the various builds a character can have.

Racial passives are statistics, meaning easy to implement. The only part that would take longer is the lore, if they decided to write descriptions.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

Got it.

Why are you so opposed to my suggestion? Does the thought of my Redguard having a max magicka passive bother you that much?

I see what you did there. Avoid the meat and potatoes comment and attempt to flip it back at me.

I will include it here again.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

I say that because you knew the design coming in. You clearly spent time attempting to find the race that you found to make the most attractive female character. You chose to not consider racial bonuses when you make the character and now you want Zos to do a wholesale change of part of the foundation in the games design. Zos already gave you a means to save yourself from your own choices.

See, didn't say anything about how I feel about a redguard having max magika. It's not about that.

QuebraRegra

Tasear wrote: »

Haha

I am a bosmer healing mage while lacking max Magicka I think the choice was wise. Most people are going put CP to get more dodge or/and sprint but me? Why would I? I have enough stamina to use both Magicka and stamina support skills. As to say we can't be sure it's not costing them elsewhere.

I do agree to more racial diversity and a new addition to racial passives like bosmer gets boost for using pets

I luv you because yer talking me into my Magicka Bosmer NB (gnome).

Man, can we get the pet thing... it's very lore. A racial wherein the first wolf, bear, lion, mudcrab, etc. to attack us would immediately become friendly for a time.

QuebraRegra

Molydeus wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial affinities.

It's funny cause Tamriel has more Racial Diversity than the real world does. Orcs. Elves. Humanoid Reptiles. Humanoid Felines. There's even Humanoid Fox people living somewhere out there hidden. But I'm sure you mean Diversity in the playerbase, cause everyone is choosing the same Races for their stats right? I dunno about that really, a lot of people go against that because of their other preferences.

Your idea though has merit. I'd LOVE to have a Khajiit that gets a Max Magicka bonus, but instead I'm stuck with the same Crit Chance and Weapon Damage passives which are utterly useless on Magicka builds.

@ArchMikem

Almost every character with a magicka build is a High Elf, just because of how good it is. I want people to play what they want without being significantly weaker.

No, there are tons of Breton magicka players.

but for the same reason. It's either high elf or Breton, no colouring outside the lines (maybe with soft caps again).

I mean no one recruits a Breton for the basketball team... everybody knows they can't jump.

RakshaTheKhajiit

Sure, something like OP proposed would be cool, more diversity in raids without sacrificing performance. And from what I see, no one gave any serious argument against. Well, some people were against it just out of spite, but hopefully no one will take them seriously

PlaceboSoul

I think a large problem too that is loosely related to this, they negated the viability of hybrid class builds. It really limits what you can do with each race / class combination, at least in a min/max perspective. Perhaps with the expansion and new class they'll retweak things to bring back hybrid builds.

dodgehopper_ESO

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Sorry I don't agree with this


This is a staple in MMO's and especially in Elder scrolls games, the fact is that ingame these races are literally different from each other on cellular levels and have different aedric and daedric influences on them. Dunmer, orsimer, bosmer specifically, then the beast races Khajiit and argonian have their own weird mojo's with the moons of lorkhan and the hist for argonians.

It's part of the lore and will always be part of the games. Don't bring in Real life issues with skin pigment issues into this game we love

That's all well and good, but in the case of Argonians for instance the racials don't even fit past games. Where is that bonus to sneaking, athletics, etc representative to the race. Literally argonians should be better runners than Orcs, but they are not. Argonians are not 'tougher' but they do have better healing factor, I think they represented that in the racials more or less. It is the stealthy athletic guerrilla warfare aspect of the race that seems odd to me.

I'd also like to point out to the folks who say the races are not 'genetically predisposed' if one could say genetics even exist in this world to adaptation. I think it is pretty clear that they are. In Morrowind Nords were immune to cold attack and highly resistant to shock attack. Altmer were weak to elemental damage but also did significant amounts of extra elemental damage. Dunmer were I believe 75% resistant to Fire/flame damage, making it easy for them to walk around in lava with a weak enchant. The point here is that its clear these races have innate qualities that are beyond the norm.

dodgehopper_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance.

Not in the elder scrolls universe!

Its a distinct part of the elder scrolls lore that some races are just better at some things then other races.
Nords are better at bring tough then Dunmer, Dunmer are better at fire then Argonians, Argonains are better at swimming then all... Bretons are better at magic then Redguards, Redguards re better at swordswinging then Orcs, Orcs are better at bring tough then Redguards. Altmer are better at magic then Bosmer, Bosmer are better at Arrows then Khajiit, Khajiit are better at being catty then everyone...
Live with it!

That being said...

...while I really would not support changing the -racial- passives contrary to elder scrolls lore, I have mentioned several times before there is one thing that could be done - adding cultural passives!

Like, not every breton is born in a castle and learns magic from childhood. What about those born in city homes, where their commoner parents have no money to pay for magic lessions, and thus they grow up working in the family business instead before they are sick of sewing clothes or whatnot and decide to go adventuring? Or the ones who grew up on a farm in the country, working the fields to support their parents in their youth?

So I would think, there could be an addition to the passives, with "culturel passives".

You might get, say, three choices for every race, with a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... one "nobleborn" for magica builds, gold gain and haggling with vendors; one "commonborn" for stamina builds, stealth and crafting and one "countryborn" for toughness, item drop and gathering perks.
Depending on the race those could be different designations... Dunmer would have Nobles, Commoners and Ashlanders, Orsimer could have Trinimac followers, Malacath followers and Wood Orcs; Bretons could have Nobles, Commoners and Countryfolk, Redguards could have Crowns, Forebears and Ash'aba, and so on...

@TheShadowScout

That's what I'm suggesting, though. I wrote "ethnicities", "cultures" and "nationalities" in my thread.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol. I've known healers and magika dps running with smooth fast clears of vMoL on Khajiits and bosmers. No issues.

We chose a game where race does bring passives that help. I find it humorous that someone chose a race because it was the prettiest so thinks the passives should come from another source.

On a more serious note, racial passives are racial affinities. It's semantics. Zos will not make this change. Think crown store race change token. Revenue.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

And as an avid PvP player, my character does well in Cyrodiil. That does not change the fact that her stats are worse than they could be.

I find it humorous that you think the game will remain the way it is now forever. Systems are updated and features are implemented. The current racial passives are one racial affinity – singular – not plural. Learn the difference. I'm suggesting several affinities for the various builds a character can have.

Racial passives are statistics, meaning easy to implement. The only part that would take longer is the lore, if they decided to write descriptions.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

Got it.

Why are you so opposed to my suggestion? Does the thought of my Redguard having a max magicka passive bother you that much?

I see what you did there. Avoid the meat and potatoes comment and attempt to flip it back at me.

I will include it here again.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

I say that because you knew the design coming in. You clearly spent time attempting to find the race that you found to make the most attractive female character. You chose to not consider racial bonuses when you make the character and now you want Zos to do a wholesale change of part of the foundation in the games design. Zos already gave you a means to save yourself from your own choices.

See, didn't say anything about how I feel about a redguard having max magika. It's not about that.

To be fair here, I'd just like to point out that same races have fundamentally changed as well. My Argonian has gone through so many iterations and it has fundamentally changed his build 3 times. I recognize though that they needed to do something. I do not think it is reasonable for players to have to fundamentally change what their character build is, purely because they completely rewrite the game on us. Then again I am clever enough to have 12 characters of widely different builds so such changes don't annoy me over much: I always have a character I can switch to.

idk

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance.

Not in the elder scrolls universe!

Its a distinct part of the elder scrolls lore that some races are just better at some things then other races.
Nords are better at bring tough then Dunmer, Dunmer are better at fire then Argonians, Argonains are better at swimming then all... Bretons are better at magic then Redguards, Redguards re better at swordswinging then Orcs, Orcs are better at bring tough then Redguards. Altmer are better at magic then Bosmer, Bosmer are better at Arrows then Khajiit, Khajiit are better at being catty then everyone...
Live with it!

That being said...

...while I really would not support changing the -racial- passives contrary to elder scrolls lore, I have mentioned several times before there is one thing that could be done - adding cultural passives!

Like, not every breton is born in a castle and learns magic from childhood. What about those born in city homes, where their commoner parents have no money to pay for magic lessions, and thus they grow up working in the family business instead before they are sick of sewing clothes or whatnot and decide to go adventuring? Or the ones who grew up on a farm in the country, working the fields to support their parents in their youth?

So I would think, there could be an addition to the passives, with "culturel passives".

You might get, say, three choices for every race, with a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... one "nobleborn" for magica builds, gold gain and haggling with vendors; one "commonborn" for stamina builds, stealth and crafting and one "countryborn" for toughness, item drop and gathering perks.
Depending on the race those could be different designations... Dunmer would have Nobles, Commoners and Ashlanders, Orsimer could have Trinimac followers, Malacath followers and Wood Orcs; Bretons could have Nobles, Commoners and Countryfolk, Redguards could have Crowns, Forebears and Ash'aba, and so on...

@TheShadowScout

That's what I'm suggesting, though. I wrote "ethnicities", "cultures" and "nationalities" in my thread.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol. I've known healers and magika dps running with smooth fast clears of vMoL on Khajiits and bosmers. No issues.

We chose a game where race does bring passives that help. I find it humorous that someone chose a race because it was the prettiest so thinks the passives should come from another source.

On a more serious note, racial passives are racial affinities. It's semantics. Zos will not make this change. Think crown store race change token. Revenue.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

And as an avid PvP player, my character does well in Cyrodiil. That does not change the fact that her stats are worse than they could be.

I find it humorous that you think the game will remain the way it is now forever. Systems are updated and features are implemented. The current racial passives are one racial affinity – singular – not plural. Learn the difference. I'm suggesting several affinities for the various builds a character can have.

Racial passives are statistics, meaning easy to implement. The only part that would take longer is the lore, if they decided to write descriptions.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

Got it.

Why are you so opposed to my suggestion? Does the thought of my Redguard having a max magicka passive bother you that much?

I see what you did there. Avoid the meat and potatoes comment and attempt to flip it back at me.

I will include it here again.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

I say that because you knew the design coming in. You clearly spent time attempting to find the race that you found to make the most attractive female character. You chose to not consider racial bonuses when you make the character and now you want Zos to do a wholesale change of part of the foundation in the games design. Zos already gave you a means to save yourself from your own choices.

See, didn't say anything about how I feel about a redguard having max magika. It's not about that.

To be fair here, I'd just like to point out that same races have fundamentally changed as well. My Argonian has gone through so many iterations and it has fundamentally changed his build 3 times. I recognize though that they needed to do something. I do not think it is reasonable for players to have to fundamentally change what their character build is, purely because they completely rewrite the game on us. Then again I am clever enough to have 12 characters of widely different builds so such changes don't annoy me over much: I always have a character I can switch to.

They have adjusted passives as anyone would expect. MMOs always make adjustments to everything, rarely wholesale changes flipping the system on it's head (yea, I know we have CP now and no vet ranks). They have adjusted skills, skill lines and passives. Consider that the initial release of the game had zero class skills with stamina passives and I think all ultimates scaled off of magika if I recall properly on that last point.

That is completely different than what OP is talking about and not even comparable to what you mention. All because he chose a race because he thought the female characters looked the most attractive.

zaria

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

You are just trying to create a bland no choices matter game, wether you like it or not these races ARE very different from each other. I don't expect a Dunmer to be as capable physically as a khajiit or a khajiit as powerful in magics as a High elf. It's part of their blood and the different Aedric and Daedric beings that are affecting them

Now if they REWROTE all that then sure have at it, but that is also when I leave the game. The races have different affinities and that is not a small lore fact to change, that is a FUNDAMENTAL part of the game. If you change that then I'm sorry it's not elder scrolls and you will turn this game into a boring numb Call of duty with magic online game

You have two problems first is the one that some races get an handicap up to 10%.
This is not standard in TES, its one exception, its Altmer in Morrowind and to some degree Oblvion.
However it affected magic pool, not dps so you could easy compensate by using more potions.
The skill and attribute differences would even out after the first 10 levels having no impact on end game.

The second and more fundamental is the meta races or Altmer online. No its not only min-maxer who do this but anybody following any guide and don't hate Altmers. Result is an too high Altmer population so they nerf them, Dumer become meta.
This is not fixable, making stamina stronger than magic would flip it, not fix it.

And yes altmer had an huge benefit back in Daggerfall but that was an feature exploit. They had immunity to paralyze, so you could select critical weakness to paralyze as an negative effect letting you select many positive ones for free.

zuto40

Smepic wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial affinities.

It's funny cause Tamriel has more Racial Diversity than the real world does. Orcs. Elves. Humanoid Reptiles. Humanoid Felines. There's even Humanoid Fox people living somewhere out there hidden. But I'm sure you mean Diversity in the playerbase, cause everyone is choosing the same Races for their stats right? I dunno about that really, a lot of people go against that because of their other preferences.

Your idea though has merit. I'd LOVE to have a Khajiit that gets a Max Magicka bonus, but instead I'm stuck with the same Crit Chance and Weapon Damage passives which are utterly useless on Magicka builds.

@ArchMikem

Almost every character with a magicka build is a High Elf, just because of how good it is. I want people to play what they want without being significantly weaker.

the elvish classes fit the lore as mostly being mages, and the races from harsh lands like hammerfell and morrowind(they have both bonuses) fit natural evolution as being more physically fit, its part of my immersion go away

hmsdragonfly

AshTal wrote: »

As a long term Argonian player I have always been annoyed by a race with crap passives, The argonian player base had to fight to get the same health bonus as a Nord (why or why did we have to fight to get an identical health bonus to another race) and we still have a terrible potion required passive.

Please can we have either equal racial passives or the ability to choose our racials.

An Argonian makes:
1) Best tank.
2) Best healer.
3) OK PvP DPS (both stam+mag).

Take a look at other races:
Orc:
1) Good tank.
2) Orc healer? Pffft.
3) Good PvP DDs (stam only).

Nord:
1) Good tank.
2) Pls no Nord healer.
3) OK PvP DPS (stam only).

Imperial:
1) Great tank.
2) Healer? Not possible.
3) OK PvP DPS (stam only).

Atmer:
1) Altmer tank lol.
2) OK-ish healer.
3) Great PvE+PvP DPS (mag only).

Breton:
1) Breton magplar tank works well. But only Magplar tank.
2) Great healer.
3) Good PvE+PvP DPS (mag only).

etc etc

I don't think Argonian is a bad race with bad passives

TheShadowScout

Artis wrote: »

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Funny, I think worse whenever someone makes an unneccessary "ad Hominem" statement...

Artis wrote: »

And the analogy is wrong, redhead pale-skin already means they are not as tolerant to sunburns...

And that is -exactly- what I did mean!
The "redguard growing up among altmer" is the exact equivalent of "redhead growing up in africa" - just because you grow up somewhere, you won't nearly adapt as well to the environment as someone whose family had been living through the natural selection there for a thousand years, as evidenced by their -physical- characteristics...

Artis wrote: »

...BUT having parents of a certain race doesn't mean you can't have certain properties.

That would depend.
If you have two redheaded parents, you won't magically have africa-black skin, right?
So why should a child of two redguard parents suddenly have altmer magical affinity in their blood?

Artis wrote: »

For example, you can be a breton who had some nord ancestors in his blood line and yes you can be tolerant to cold, if both your parents had those recessive genes and they happened to combine.

And here is where realism ends, because long ago the powers that be decided they would skip the question of "mixed race" in their elder scrolls universe by decreeing that any child is magically the race of its mother, and not a "hybrid". Just with some cosmetic features from the father.
Unless the races merge in ways to create a new race. (like Bretons)

So, there we are.

There might plausibly be breton/nord hybrids.
...IF they ever decide to make "Reachmen" their own ESO race (since they are just what you describe, a race of sort of bretons living right between bereton lands and skyrim... so a certain mingling would be quite reasomnable to assume)

But... there -should not- be bretons who get their pick of nord passives, or redguards who get their pick of altmer passives, as much as some min/maxxers would love to cheery-pick their passives. Not without throwing out the lore and annoying a lot of us lorelovers.

Artis

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Funny, I think worse whenever someone makes an unneccessary "ad Hominem" statement...

It's not ad hominem, it's a statement of fact and you demonstrated it once again.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And that is -exactly- what I did mean!
The "redguard growing up among altmer" is the exact equivalent of "redhead growing up in africa" - just because you grow up somewhere, you won't nearly adapt as well to the environment as someone whose family had been living through the natural selection there for a thousand years, as evidenced by their -physical- characteristics...

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That would depend.
If you have two redheaded parents, you won't magically have africa-black skin, right?
So why should a child of two redguard parents suddenly have altmer magical affinity in their blood?

Not right. Not africa-black skin maybe, but definitely you don't have to be redheaded like them. In general, if both parents are redheaded - the kid has only 25% chance to be redheaded as well.

So why would a child with two redguard parents have altmer affinity to magic? Depends on whether it's a dominant or recessive gene. If it's dominant (and stam is recessive) - then a child has 75% to have that affinity if both parents carry it but both had stamina genes from their parents combined. If magicka affinity is recessive - than a child of 2 redguards still have a 25% chance to have those genes combined (provided both parents carry that gene).

Here, your question can easily be answered. Science - read about it, it's pretty nice to know. And no ad hominem here. Sorry, but as I said, you don't seem to know what you're talking about, it is true. You don't project reality on the game (if that's what you tried to do), instead you project your own fantasies of how things should be. But they aren't based on anything. Why should things be your way?

Now where is any argument from you why wouldn't a redguard have that magical affinity?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And here is where realism ends, because long ago the powers that be decided they would skip the question of "mixed race" in their elder scrolls universe by decreeing that any child is magically the race of its mother, and not a "hybrid". Just with some cosmetic features from the father.
Unless the races merge in ways to create a new race. (like Bretons)

First of all, it has nothing to do with races. Genes of two parents of the same race will still obey the laws of genetics. Second of all, you're (or rather - they are) contradicting yourself in this one. You're saying no "mixed races" yet admit that there are "bretons" who are a mixed race essentially. You can call it new all you want, but how do you think this race appeared? And how do you think the races merge if kids were all their mother's race? Did someone perform some ritual and bretons appeared? Or were 2 races mating with each other and evolved to bretons?

And yes, it still has nothing to do with races. But even what you said about races is not very plausible, you should agree.

THE ONLY reason not to let us pick racial passives is the game mechanics. There's absolutely no other reason why we can't.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

There might plausibly be breton/nord hybrids.
...IF they ever decide to make "Reachmen" their own ESO race (since they are just what you describe, a race of sort of bretons living right between bereton lands and skyrim... so a certain mingling would be quite reasomnable to assume)

But... there -should not- be bretons who get their pick of nord passives, or redguards who get their pick of altmer passives, as much as some min/maxxers would love to cheery-pick their passives. Not without throwing out the lore and annoying a lot of us lorelovers.

You are not a lorelover, you are a common-sense-denier. There's "a certain mingling" all over the place. Most couples we encounter in Tamriel are interracial. Any possible combination of genes and hence racial passives is already out there.

Sorry, but you offer absolutely no reason why all races must be restricted to what they have now. And see, nobody would mind if we still had soft caps or if racial passives gave races some unique flavor but wouldn't affect their performance and especially DPS. But it's not like that in ESO, even though it was like that in TES game, which you as a self-proclamed lorelover must know. There races only gave you some starting bonuses, you could still have all stats equal in the end game and the race didn't matter except for looks. That's what we want, and why can't we have it?

Artis

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.

There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.

If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.

Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.

Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.

Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.

@hmsdragonfly
So I was reading your argument and see what you're trying to do - be a "tough guy" saying "suck it up, it is how it is" and think you're right because it already changed in game.

I would totally agree with you, but I have a question for you.... Can't you see that you're wrong and ZOS's change in cyrodiil is awkward and inconsistent? Look, I'll just quote the book you linked:

The fertile farmlands of central Cyrodiil, around Lake Rumare and the Nibenay Valley, the region commonly known as "The Heartland," is temperate in climate, supporting the crops and livestock that feed all of central Tamriel.

But that's what we have already? Before Talos even did or "transform" anything. But then why would he say:

You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

Sorry, but I don't see how it makes any sense. If you remove jungle from here then what is it about? What did he transform into what if nothing changed?

And sorry, but this:

My studies indicate that the use of the phrase "endless jungle" to describe Cyrodiil appears to be an error in transcription.

Is not an explanation. Say something like this - with no reference to studies and no studies showed - and see how all academia will laugh and point fingers at you.

And how about this? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil
It explicitly mentions jungle a few times - and not like talking about something in the past, but it's clear that an author describes how things are at the moment of writing this. So there WAS jungle.

It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay. The elevation rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley there are all manner of deciduous forest and mangroves, becoming sparser towards the ocean. The western coast is a wet-dry area, and from Rihad border to Anvil to the northernmost Valenwood villages forest fires are common in summer. There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.

And some more:

To the Colovians, the ancestor worship and esoteric customs of the East can often be bizarre. Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons.

The Guide itself was published in 864 2E in Tiber Septim's times. While lady Cinnabar of Taneth lived during Interregnum (ESO times) which is about 250 years before Septim (here's a timeline http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era ). She mentioned Jungle multiple times, Septim's editors left jungle, too, even though the book was written for the travelers of 864 2E. So what happened then? Was Cinnabar blind and didn't see that Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle at her time? If she herself translated something else (what?) then were editors blind leaving jungle in the book when they lived in the Imperial city surrounded by that jungle (supposedly)? And what did Tiber transform into what then? Or maybe there wasn't a jungle during Interregnum and then it appeared later and then Septim transformed it? Sorry, but the Occam's Razor would just cut that one out. It is way more plausible to admit that ESO ignored some of the lore.

So "The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it." is a false statement. The explanation is definitely not proper. It seriously makes no sense as is and it's pretty obvious that they were just trying to cover a fail. Or do you not see it? I mean, maybe I don't know something and am wrong. I am open to changing my mind. But right now it seems to me that you are incorrect and didn't know all the facts. IF the explanation was proper and IF it hadn't be for things I linked - I'd definitely agree with you.

ArrerBoy

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Imperial:
2) Healer? Not possible.

My Imperial Sorcerer thumbs his nose at you.

hmsdragonfly

Artis wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly
So I was reading your argument and see what you're trying to do - be a "tough guy" saying "suck it up, it is how it is" and think you're right because it already changed in game.

I would totally agree with you, but I have a question for you.... Can't you see that you're wrong and ZOS's change in cyrodiil is awkward and inconsistent? Look, I'll just quote the book you linked:

The fertile farmlands of central Cyrodiil, around Lake Rumare and the Nibenay Valley, the region commonly known as "The Heartland," is temperate in climate, supporting the crops and livestock that feed all of central Tamriel.

But that's what we have already? Before Talos even did or "transform" anything. But then why would he say:

You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

Sorry, but I don't see how it makes any sense. If you remove jungle from here then what is it about? What did he transform into what if nothing changed?

And how about this? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil
It explicitly mentions jungle a few times - and not like talking about something in the past, but it's clear that an author describes how things are at the moment of writing this. So there WAS jungle.

It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay. The elevation rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley there are all manner of deciduous forest and mangroves, becoming sparser towards the ocean. The western coast is a wet-dry area, and from Rihad border to Anvil to the northernmost Valenwood villages forest fires are common in summer. There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.

And some more:

To the Colovians, the ancestor worship and esoteric customs of the East can often be bizarre. Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons.

So "The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it." is a false statement. The explanation is definitely not proper. It seriously makes no sense as is and it's pretty obvious that they were just trying to cover a fail. Or do you not see it? I mean, maybe I don't know something and am wrong. I am open to changing my mind. But right now it seems to me that you are incorrect and didn't know all the facts. IF the explanation was proper and IF it hadn't be for things I linked - I'd definitely agree with you.

ZOS is not the first one who changed Cyrodiil's layout. Bethesda did it in Oblivion, they were like "screw it, let's just say Talos shouted the jungle away", we all know that explanation is silly, but since it enhances the gameplay and the change is reasonable, we don't really care. Well, some people do care, but oh well, we cannot please everyone.
Let be honest, the endless jungle thingy is silly and it cripples the gameplay, so, in reality, Bethesda realized that they made a mistake and they decided to rewrite that part of the lore. So, they gave us a silly explanation. Same with ZOS. ZOS's excuse is that "Phrastus of Elinhir, whom states that Cyrodiil never was a jungle and that the only reason it was recorded as such is because of an error in transcription by the classical author Heimskr, believing the original copied text translated to "extensive uplands. Phrastus' rival, Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, states that the landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land"
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cyrodiil

So, according to Lady Cinnabar of Taneth and Phrastus of Elinhir, they never had been a jungle before E2. People might have started growing a jungle between 2E 582 and 3E, you know, "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", that's the jungle Talos "shouted away", so the explanation still makes sense.

So, that's not a mistake or "a fail". ZOS intentionally rewrote this particular part of the lore to enhance the gameplay, and the change is green lit by Bethesda. Yes, the explanation is as silly as the explanation Bethesda gave us in Oblivion ("Talos just shouted the jungle away, don't ask us why and how").

dodgehopper_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance.

Not in the elder scrolls universe!

Its a distinct part of the elder scrolls lore that some races are just better at some things then other races.
Nords are better at bring tough then Dunmer, Dunmer are better at fire then Argonians, Argonains are better at swimming then all... Bretons are better at magic then Redguards, Redguards re better at swordswinging then Orcs, Orcs are better at bring tough then Redguards. Altmer are better at magic then Bosmer, Bosmer are better at Arrows then Khajiit, Khajiit are better at being catty then everyone...
Live with it!

That being said...

...while I really would not support changing the -racial- passives contrary to elder scrolls lore, I have mentioned several times before there is one thing that could be done - adding cultural passives!

Like, not every breton is born in a castle and learns magic from childhood. What about those born in city homes, where their commoner parents have no money to pay for magic lessions, and thus they grow up working in the family business instead before they are sick of sewing clothes or whatnot and decide to go adventuring? Or the ones who grew up on a farm in the country, working the fields to support their parents in their youth?

So I would think, there could be an addition to the passives, with "culturel passives".

You might get, say, three choices for every race, with a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... one "nobleborn" for magica builds, gold gain and haggling with vendors; one "commonborn" for stamina builds, stealth and crafting and one "countryborn" for toughness, item drop and gathering perks.
Depending on the race those could be different designations... Dunmer would have Nobles, Commoners and Ashlanders, Orsimer could have Trinimac followers, Malacath followers and Wood Orcs; Bretons could have Nobles, Commoners and Countryfolk, Redguards could have Crowns, Forebears and Ash'aba, and so on...

@TheShadowScout

That's what I'm suggesting, though. I wrote "ethnicities", "cultures" and "nationalities" in my thread.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lol. I've known healers and magika dps running with smooth fast clears of vMoL on Khajiits and bosmers. No issues.

We chose a game where race does bring passives that help. I find it humorous that someone chose a race because it was the prettiest so thinks the passives should come from another source.

On a more serious note, racial passives are racial affinities. It's semantics. Zos will not make this change. Think crown store race change token. Revenue.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

And as an avid PvP player, my character does well in Cyrodiil. That does not change the fact that her stats are worse than they could be.

I find it humorous that you think the game will remain the way it is now forever. Systems are updated and features are implemented. The current racial passives are one racial affinity – singular – not plural. Learn the difference. I'm suggesting several affinities for the various builds a character can have.

Racial passives are statistics, meaning easy to implement. The only part that would take longer is the lore, if they decided to write descriptions.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

Got it.

Why are you so opposed to my suggestion? Does the thought of my Redguard having a max magicka passive bother you that much?

I see what you did there. Avoid the meat and potatoes comment and attempt to flip it back at me.

I will include it here again.

And your point seems to be that you made choices that are less favorable so you want the game changed to suit what works best for you.

I say that because you knew the design coming in. You clearly spent time attempting to find the race that you found to make the most attractive female character. You chose to not consider racial bonuses when you make the character and now you want Zos to do a wholesale change of part of the foundation in the games design. Zos already gave you a means to save yourself from your own choices.

See, didn't say anything about how I feel about a redguard having max magika. It's not about that.

To be fair here, I'd just like to point out that same races have fundamentally changed as well. My Argonian has gone through so many iterations and it has fundamentally changed his build 3 times. I recognize though that they needed to do something. I do not think it is reasonable for players to have to fundamentally change what their character build is, purely because they completely rewrite the game on us. Then again I am clever enough to have 12 characters of widely different builds so such changes don't annoy me over much: I always have a character I can switch to.

They have adjusted passives as anyone would expect. MMOs always make adjustments to everything, rarely wholesale changes flipping the system on it's head (yea, I know we have CP now and no vet ranks). They have adjusted skills, skill lines and passives. Consider that the initial release of the game had zero class skills with stamina passives and I think all ultimates scaled off of magika if I recall properly on that last point.

That is completely different than what OP is talking about and not even comparable to what you mention. All because he chose a race because he thought the female characters looked the most attractive.

I agree with your point I am just pointing out that some changes in rules can fundamentally change what your character's highest and best use would be. In my case this means my Argonian Nightblade's highest and best use changed multiple times, until the last major change I had to move him from a stamina build to a magical one. The character is certainly enjoyable as he stands, but there is a part of me that feels as though a major change in rules is odd even from a thematic point of view. We've had these discussions in other forums, but I still feel like the Argonian should likely have a good broad regeneration stat. They're the go-to healer now, secondarily a tank which isn't such a horrible thing though. It just changes what you would have normally thought of as the greatest competence of Argonians from past games (or even from earlier in the game). My point is that I don't think we should be harsh to player who built toward former highest competency when the rules get changed. Its my view that if they knock out a passive on a race they should in turn give a free respect, otherwise it gives them carte blanche to continually ruin racial passives as a means of gaining income. In other words this gives them a benefit for actually making the game less good. I think from a broader strategic point of view this is a bad vision for the devs to take and I'm hopeful that they will recognize this. I have seen similar actions done in other games and it is not good.

My suggestion to the devs as it has been a very long time, is that they make the racials a static number for every race. In this way it would not matter how much magic, stamina, etc you place on a character. An Altmer could reasonably be a stamina build and not face the same negatives as they do now while still advantaging an Altmer toward magic.

Artis

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ZOS is not the first one who changed Cyrodiil's layout. Bethesda did it in Oblivion, they were like "screw it, let's just say Talos shouted the jungle away", we all know that explanation is silly, but since it enhances the gameplay and the change is reasonable, we don't really care. Well, some people do care, but oh well, we cannot please everyone.
Let be honest, the endless jungle thingy is silly and it cripples the gameplay, so, in reality, Bethesda realized that they made a mistake and they decided to rewrite that part of the lore. So, they gave us a silly explanation. Same with ZOS. ZOS's excuse is that "Phrastus of Elinhir, whom states that Cyrodiil never was a jungle and that the only reason it was recorded as such is because of an error in transcription by the classical author Heimskr, believing the original copied text translated to "extensive uplands. Phrastus' rival, Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, states that the landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land"
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cyrodiil

So, according to Lady Cinnabar of Taneth and Phrastus of Elinhir, they never had been a jungle before E2. People might have started growing a jungle between 2E 582 and 3E, you know, "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", that's the jungle Talos "shouted away", so the explanation still makes sense.

So, that's not a mistake or "a fail". ZOS intentionally rewrote this particular part of the lore to enhance the gameplay, and the change is green lit by Bethesda. Yes, the explanation is as silly as the explanation Bethesda gave us in Oblivion ("Talos just shouted the jungle away, don't ask us why and how").

See, the thing is that the explanation in Oblivion wasn't silly because it didn't contradict anything. He might as well have shouted it away. Or they could say that some climate change happened or whatever. No contradiction here, really.

But the 2nd paragraph of yours seems silly. Why would people grow jungle? Who even does that at all? But not even that. The jungle did stay in the book when it was published for the use at that time. Which means, obviously, that at the moment of publishing there was a jungle. And the first time it was mentioned in a guide written by cinnabar. And once again - it was written in present time. Read the text I quoted. Prior to ESO she wasn't translating anything. She was describing things the way they were. She wrote the book, the translation thing is just an attempt to cover up the fail, and quite a pathetic one, too.

Obviously they rewrote and bethesda was ok with that. It doesn't mean it's not a fail, because they couldn't give a good explanation. So it is a fail. It's just not a mistake lol.

TheShadowScout

Artis wrote: »

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

Generally true.
And that is in the game!
After all, just because your character is Altmer, doesn't mean you have to spend skill points in your magica passives, right?
There, doesn't being right make you happy now!

Artis wrote: »

Not right. Not africa-black skin maybe, but definitely you don't have to be redheaded like them. In general, if both parents are redheaded - the kid has only 25% chance to be redheaded as well...

Yeah, yeah, I know. I DO know about dominant and recessive genes, thank you very much. It is taught in schools around here, you know...
But that was not the question, now was it?

The matter was, would a child of two redheaded parents be getting a genetic feature from a completely different racial group like african skin pigmentation, just because it was born in africa?
Yeah, some adaptation is possible (read back on my "cultural passives" suggestion) but not to the extent of african skin pigmentation, agreed? That would take many generations...

And you keep arguing it should be possible.

And so I say, not so, redheaded parents kid won't have african skin pigmentation.

Because, in the elder scrolls universe, "affinity for magic" is an elven trait, not a dominant or recessive human trait at all!

Let me make it more clearly... quick Elder scrolls universe history lession...
Dawn era:
Mer evolve on aldmeris, have magical affinity, maybe through connection to the aedra, maybe that's just their haughty myth.
Men evolve on Youkuda with some stamina affinity, and Atmora with toughness and some cold resistance.
- Merethic era:
Mer leave aldmeris, take over tamriel, split into different groups, these aldmer settle different regions and slowly start to adapt to them, one way or another - auridion (altmer) and high rock , hammerfell (sinmer), skyrim (falmer snow elves), valenwood (bosmer), cyrodil (ayleids), dwemer under the land (though actually they might have been here before all the others, noone really knows for sure), conquer the beastfolk in elsweyr and argonia, squabble with the dragons, split off religious splinter groups (chimer, orsimer - the latter with a pretty extensive genetic transformation thanks to daedric price involvement) and so on...
Later on, Men come there was well, from atmora (nedes), fight the mer, defeat them and build their own kingdoms in some cases (skyrim), are conquered and enslaved by mer in others (high rock).
- 1st Era:
Dragons are gone now, mortals rule... and fight each other. Direnni elves interbreed with their nede slaves, chimer and dwemer fight each other and the nedes who are slowly turning into the nords of today... eventually Alessian rebellions sweep through cyrodil as nedic slaves overthrow their ayleid masters (and start their journey on becoming imperials), only the direnni withstand them, but eventually also get absorbed into the bretons, dwemer vanish and chimer are cursed into dunmer (again, daedric intervention), and youkudans land in hammerfell, kill the sinmer and everything else with their curved swords and take the land for their own.
Lots of fighting, changing borders, alliances made and broken, et cetera.

The point is... there isn't even a common origin for redguards and altmer! And they never intermingled on a major scale either. So why would the altmer magica affinity gene be in the redguard genepool???

Artis wrote: »

Now where is any argument from you why wouldn't a redguard have that magical affinity?

...because unlike the bretons, redguards never intermingled with elves!
They killed them instead!
If that so hard to understand?

Artis wrote: »

...instead you project your own fantasies of how things should be. But they aren't based on anything. Why should things be your way?

Funny, I keep thinking that is what YOU seem to be doing here... with your arguments to support the notion of how racial attributes should jump over to other races "just because they grew up there". You do know evolution for that takes a little time, right, no matter what the X-men movies say?

Artis wrote: »

Second of all, you're (or rather - they are) contradicting yourself in this one. You're saying no "mixed races" yet admit that there are "bretons" who are a mixed race essentially.

Actually... that's not my sayings, but the elder scrolls lore.
And yeah, I expect they only added that "child is race of the mother" part so they wouldn't be bothered by people asking for "hybrids" - or at least that is the most likely explenation.

And agreed, they sort of contrtadict themselves on the bretons. Bosmer are also supposed to have some mannish blood IIRC (possibly deer as well for all we know). Probably they would make up some fluff about how such intermingling was possible back in that era, or how the direnni did it as experiment... or how it takes ages of intermingling before any such effect shows, and more before they breed true, which is my personal choice for fluff explenation...

But that contradiction is not mine, I am just working with what I have...

Artis wrote: »

THE ONLY reason not to let us pick racial passives is the game mechanics. There's absolutely no other reason why we can't.

Agreed. Sort of. And they made that decision a looooong time ago, and wrote it into the elder scroll lore...
...
And now people say "change the lore becuase we want to min/max everything" and build arguments to support their point.
And some say "Nay! Don't feed the min/maxxers!" and build counterarguments.
So? What else is new?

Artis wrote: »

You are not a lorelover, you are a common-sense-denier.

...I am the one saying the union of two caucasian parents would not produce a child with aftican pigmentation, you say otherwise, but I an the common sense denier???
...
Yeah, suuuuure.

Artis wrote: »

...There races only gave you some starting bonuses, you could still have all stats equal in the end game and the race didn't matter except for looks. That's what we want, and why can't we have it?

And if you had actually -read- what I post instead of just decreing me, you would realize that I am NOT arguing against that. I mean...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)

...that IS pretty much what I am suggesting there, is it not?
I liked that in older TES games. I'd love to have it in ESO.
...
Well, as far as stats go anyways, you may remember that the different races -also- had different resistances... maybe not in the earliest games, but they did later on, and all that ought to be preserved ans its part of what made the elder scrolls so nifty in my eyes... but we are talking stats here, and there I really am not set on the current mess. (after all, among my alts I have dunmer stamblades, argonian DKs, nord sorcerors... not exactly the super-effective way to play, yes?)

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My suggestion to the devs as it has been a very long time, is that they make the racials a static number for every race. In this way it would not matter how much magic, stamina, etc you place on a character. An Altmer could reasonably be a stamina build and not face the same negatives as they do now while still advantaging an Altmer toward magic.

...and that would be totally fine with me!
Lessen the impact so it matters less in the end!
It would also have the advantage of giving people a bit of a boost at the start, which is always nifty for newbies, right?

dodgehopper_ESO

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

And just because you're born something, doesn't mean you have all the characteristics you race has.

Generally true.
And that is in the game!
After all, just because your character is Altmer, doesn't mean you have to spend skill points in your magica passives, right?
There, doesn't being right make you happy now!

Artis wrote: »

Not right. Not africa-black skin maybe, but definitely you don't have to be redheaded like them. In general, if both parents are redheaded - the kid has only 25% chance to be redheaded as well...

Yeah, yeah, I know. I DO know about dominant and recessive genes, thank you very much. It is taught in schools around here, you know...
But that was not the question, now was it?

The matter was, would a child of two redheaded parents be getting a genetic feature from a completely different racial group like african skin pigmentation, just because it was born in africa?
Yeah, some adaptation is possible (read back on my "cultural passives" suggestion) but not to the extent of african skin pigmentation, agreed? That would take many generations...

And you keep arguing it should be possible.

And so I say, not so, redheaded parents kid won't have african skin pigmentation.

Because, in the elder scrolls universe, "affinity for magic" is an elven trait, not a dominant or recessive human trait at all!

Let me make it more clearly... quick Elder scrolls universe history lession...
Dawn era:
Mer evolve on aldmeris, have magical affinity, maybe through connection to the aedra, maybe that's just their haughty myth.
Men evolve on Youkuda with some stamina affinity, and Atmora with toughness and some cold resistance.
- Merethic era:
Mer leave aldmeris, take over tamriel, split into different groups, these aldmer settle different regions and slowly start to adapt to them, one way or another - auridion (altmer) and high rock , hammerfell (sinmer), skyrim (falmer snow elves), valenwood (bosmer), cyrodil (ayleids), dwemer under the land (though actually they might have been here before all the others, noone really knows for sure), conquer the beastfolk in elsweyr and argonia, squabble with the dragons, split off religious splinter groups (chimer, orsimer - the latter with a pretty extensive genetic transformation thanks to daedric price involvement) and so on...
Later on, Men come there was well, from atmora (nedes), fight the mer, defeat them and build their own kingdoms in some cases (skyrim), are conquered and enslaved by mer in others (high rock).
- 1st Era:
Dragons are gone now, mortals rule... and fight each other. Direnni elves interbreed with their nede slaves, chimer and dwemer fight each other and the nedes who are slowly turning into the nords of today... eventually Alessian rebellions sweep through cyrodil as nedic slaves overthrow their ayleid masters (and start their journey on becoming imperials), only the direnni withstand them, but eventually also get absorbed into the bretons, dwemer vanish and chimer are cursed into dunmer (again, daedric intervention), and youkudans land in hammerfell, kill the sinmer and everything else with their curved swords and take the land for their own.
Lots of fighting, changing borders, alliances made and broken, et cetera.

The point is... there isn't even a common origin for redguards and altmer! And they never intermingled on a major scale either. So why would the altmer magica affinity gene be in the redguard genepool???

Artis wrote: »

Now where is any argument from you why wouldn't a redguard have that magical affinity?

...because unlike the bretons, redguards never intermingled with elves!
They killed them instead!
If that so hard to understand?

Artis wrote: »

...instead you project your own fantasies of how things should be. But they aren't based on anything. Why should things be your way?

Funny, I keep thinking that is what YOU seem to be doing here... with your arguments to support the notion of how racial attributes should jump over to other races "just because they grew up there". You do know evolution for that takes a little time, right, no matter what the X-men movies say?

Artis wrote: »

Second of all, you're (or rather - they are) contradicting yourself in this one. You're saying no "mixed races" yet admit that there are "bretons" who are a mixed race essentially.

Actually... that's not my sayings, but the elder scrolls lore.
And yeah, I expect they only added that "child is race of the mother" part so they wouldn't be bothered by people asking for "hybrids" - or at least that is the most likely explenation.

And agreed, they sort of contrtadict themselves on the bretons. Bosmer are also supposed to have some mannish blood IIRC (possibly deer as well for all we know). Probably they would make up some fluff about how such intermingling was possible back in that era, or how the direnni did it as experiment... or how it takes ages of intermingling before any such effect shows, and more before they breed true, which is my personal choice for fluff explenation...

But that contradiction is not mine, I am just working with what I have...

Artis wrote: »

THE ONLY reason not to let us pick racial passives is the game mechanics. There's absolutely no other reason why we can't.

Agreed. Sort of. And they made that decision a looooong time ago, and wrote it into the elder scroll lore...
...
And now people say "change the lore becuase we want to min/max everything" and build arguments to support their point.
And some say "Nay! Don't feed the min/maxxers!" and build counterarguments.
So? What else is new?

Artis wrote: »

You are not a lorelover, you are a common-sense-denier.

...I am the one saying the union of two caucasian parents would not produce a child with aftican pigmentation, you say otherwise, but I an the common sense denier???
...
Yeah, suuuuure.

Artis wrote: »

...There races only gave you some starting bonuses, you could still have all stats equal in the end game and the race didn't matter except for looks. That's what we want, and why can't we have it?

And if you had actually -read- what I post instead of just decreing me, you would realize that I am NOT arguing against that. I mean...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)

...that IS pretty much what I am suggesting there, is it not?
I liked that in older TES games. I'd love to have it in ESO.
...
Well, as far as stats go anyways, you may remember that the different races -also- had different resistances... maybe not in the earliest games, but they did later on, and all that ought to be preserved ans its part of what made the elder scrolls so nifty in my eyes... but we are talking stats here, and there I really am not set on the current mess. (after all, among my alts I have dunmer stamblades, argonian DKs, nord sorcerors... not exactly the super-effective way to play, yes?)

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My suggestion to the devs as it has been a very long time, is that they make the racials a static number for every race. In this way it would not matter how much magic, stamina, etc you place on a character. An Altmer could reasonably be a stamina build and not face the same negatives as they do now while still advantaging an Altmer toward magic.

...and that would be totally fine with me!
Lessen the impact so it matters less in the end!
It would also have the advantage of giving people a bit of a boost at the start, which is always nifty for newbies, right?

@TheShadowScout - we look at this issue very similarly I think. I agree that the innate strengths of the different species should be recognized and apparent. It is logical. It is also nice to have a system that makes it possible (with hard work) to be a Stamina Altmer or a Magicka Nord for instance. Such individuals would be going against their innate grain but with hard work should be able to achieve greatness. Its simply a matter of balance. From a thematic point of view you really want the Altmer to be excellent mages and Nords to be great at swinging axes to chop off heads or trees (Nords should also be good standing buck naked in the dead of winter, and in drinking contests). I'd like to add I love that new Dunmer passive that lets them wade around in lava. I'll be honest I really miss playing Nord in Morrowind. It was a bit of an unsung hero, but actually very powerful. Nords were Immune to cold (the gnarliest mages in that game were cryomancers) and HIGHLY resistant to electricity damage.

At any regard I think the racial differences are very enjoyable particularly in the standalone games. I often bucked the trend of the race which likewise added a bit of fun. What I really enjoyed about bucking the trends (Breton Knight) for instance was that you start the game disadvantaged but more well rounded. The starting experience really makes you feel like a jack of all trades and master of absolutely nothing. Morrowind made you feel like a lowly slob just out of prison, and we're talking medieval prison where you have no muscles and look like you're almost a skeleton after swimming in your own filth for 10 years and barely subsisting on bread with flies and cockroaches. Your character slowly grows in power and by the end game you really feel like wow, yeah I'm the Nerevarine. Take that Dagoth Ur! The point I'm making is that I do feel that ESO does diminish this type of experience. Its an MMO so clearly it will have different strengths and weaknesses than a standalone game. I'd personally love to see a Khajiit Mage not be at a disadvantage with respect to an Altmer or Breton once you hit end game. Mathematically the problem I have is that the system is designed for players to double down on an attribute. Since the racial bonuses (and many other passive bonuses) are percentile based, you are pushed very firmly into being Altmer Mage and Khajiit Warrior. 10% of 10,000 is just no where near as good as 10% of 40,000. I really feel that Racial Passives should feel a lot more like really really good enchantments (maybe even a few enchants combined). That's how they should do their math on these things, and that's what I've been suggesting for a very long time. Percentage bad - Static numbers good.

zaria

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@hmsdragonfly
So I was reading your argument and see what you're trying to do - be a "tough guy" saying "suck it up, it is how it is" and think you're right because it already changed in game.

I would totally agree with you, but I have a question for you.... Can't you see that you're wrong and ZOS's change in cyrodiil is awkward and inconsistent? Look, I'll just quote the book you linked:

The fertile farmlands of central Cyrodiil, around Lake Rumare and the Nibenay Valley, the region commonly known as "The Heartland," is temperate in climate, supporting the crops and livestock that feed all of central Tamriel.

But that's what we have already? Before Talos even did or "transform" anything. But then why would he say:

You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

Sorry, but I don't see how it makes any sense. If you remove jungle from here then what is it about? What did he transform into what if nothing changed?

And how about this? http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil
It explicitly mentions jungle a few times - and not like talking about something in the past, but it's clear that an author describes how things are at the moment of writing this. So there WAS jungle.

It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay. The elevation rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley there are all manner of deciduous forest and mangroves, becoming sparser towards the ocean. The western coast is a wet-dry area, and from Rihad border to Anvil to the northernmost Valenwood villages forest fires are common in summer. There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.

And some more:

To the Colovians, the ancestor worship and esoteric customs of the East can often be bizarre. Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons.

So "The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it." is a false statement. The explanation is definitely not proper. It seriously makes no sense as is and it's pretty obvious that they were just trying to cover a fail. Or do you not see it? I mean, maybe I don't know something and am wrong. I am open to changing my mind. But right now it seems to me that you are incorrect and didn't know all the facts. IF the explanation was proper and IF it hadn't be for things I linked - I'd definitely agree with you.

ZOS is not the first one who changed Cyrodiil's layout. Bethesda did it in Oblivion, they were like "screw it, let's just say Talos shouted the jungle away", we all know that explanation is silly, but since it enhances the gameplay and the change is reasonable, we don't really care. Well, some people do care, but oh well, we cannot please everyone.
Let be honest, the endless jungle thingy is silly and it cripples the gameplay, so, in reality, Bethesda realized that they made a mistake and they decided to rewrite that part of the lore. So, they gave us a silly explanation. Same with ZOS. ZOS's excuse is that "Phrastus of Elinhir, whom states that Cyrodiil never was a jungle and that the only reason it was recorded as such is because of an error in transcription by the classical author Heimskr, believing the original copied text translated to "extensive uplands. Phrastus' rival, Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, states that the landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land"
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cyrodiil

So, according to Lady Cinnabar of Taneth and Phrastus of Elinhir, they never had been a jungle before E2. People might have started growing a jungle between 2E 582 and 3E, you know, "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", that's the jungle Talos "shouted away", so the explanation still makes sense.

So, that's not a mistake or "a fail". ZOS intentionally rewrote this particular part of the lore to enhance the gameplay, and the change is green lit by Bethesda. Yes, the explanation is as silly as the explanation Bethesda gave us in Oblivion ("Talos just shouted the jungle away, don't ask us why and how").

If you look at the map in Oblvion, its stretches from Skyrim border to southern Elsweyr , southern part is tropical. northern part is cold as it has to be, you could not have tropical jungle up to the north. Yes they could have more tropical vegetation up to imperial city.
Not an jungle anymore because of logging and gameplay Cyrodil is flatter and more open for performance and better for PvP.

zaria

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

...There races only gave you some starting bonuses, you could still have all stats equal in the end game and the race didn't matter except for looks. That's what we want, and why can't we have it?

And if you had actually -read- what I post instead of just decreing me, you would realize that I am NOT arguing against that. I mean...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)

...that IS pretty much what I am suggesting there, is it not?
I liked that in older TES games. I'd love to have it in ESO.
...
Well, as far as stats go anyways, you may remember that the different races -also- had different resistances... maybe not in the earliest games, but they did later on, and all that ought to be preserved ans its part of what made the elder scrolls so nifty in my eyes... but we are talking stats here, and there I really am not set on the current mess. (after all, among my alts I have dunmer stamblades, argonian DKs, nord sorcerors... not exactly the super-effective way to play, yes?)

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My suggestion to the devs as it has been a very long time, is that they make the racials a static number for every race. In this way it would not matter how much magic, stamina, etc you place on a character. An Altmer could reasonably be a stamina build and not face the same negatives as they do now while still advantaging an Altmer toward magic.

...and that would be totally fine with me!
Lessen the impact so it matters less in the end!
It would also have the advantage of giving people a bit of a boost at the start, which is always nifty for newbies, right?

An flat bonus its very nice in the start and still give you say 500 magic more at the end. Might add learning some skills faster, an Altmer level destro staff faster Orc level two hand fast , totally in line with earlier games. Add fun stuff like argonians swim faster and khajiit is better at picking pockets.

Existing system has two issues, first is breaking play as you like (no idiot builds will never work and have never done)
Second is the racial unbalance as in altmer online. Ignore the casuals, look at any who research an build, magic is stronger and more versatile than stamina and Altmer is the best mages so they select Altmer.
As it become too many of them they get an nerf, now Dumer is best, repeat......
An fear that just an tiny diference like the +500 magic or is too much to prevent this.

Artis

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Generally true.
And that is in the game!
After all, just because your character is Altmer, doesn't mean you have to spend skill points in your magica passives, right?
There, doesn't being right make you happy now!

Not so much anymore, because I"m always right or if I'm not 100% sure in my knowledge, I don't make a statement. But yes, it's pretty good to be reminded.

And no, it's not in the game as much as we want it. Not putting skill points means having absolutely no characteristics, but it makes no sense if others have them.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, I know. I DO know about dominant and recessive genes, thank you very much. It is taught in schools around here, you know...
But that was not the question, now was it?

You can't blame people for thinking you don't, because of how you're saying what you're saying. Like below.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The matter was, would a child of two redheaded parents be getting a genetic feature from a completely different racial group like african skin pigmentation, just because it was born in africa?

JUST because he was born there? No. Can two white parents have a darkskinned child? Yes.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, some adaptation is possible (read back on my "cultural passives" suggestion) but not to the extent of african skin pigmentation, agreed? That would take many generations...

Thank god we don't care about pigmentation and care about stamina, magicka and other passives. And it very well can be possible for two stamina parents to have a magicka child, why not.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And you keep arguing it should be possible.

And so I say, not so, redheaded parents kid won't have african skin pigmentation.

Because IT IS possible. See? That's why don't be surprised that it's not clear that you know genetics. I probably heard about it, but that's it.

Yes, white parents can have kids with african skin pigmentation. Google it. For example, here's a list of a few famous cases.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Because, in the elder scrolls universe, "affinity for magic" is an elven trait, not a dominant or recessive human trait at all!

Said who? Elves and humans are races, not different biological species. And Bretons and Imperials (yes, Imperials. See skyrim) have affinity for magic even though they are humans/Men. And Wood elves and Orsimer have no affinity to magic, even though they are Mer. Then there are Argonians in Morrowind, too, who aren't mer. Not touching older pre-3D TES.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Let me make it more clearly... quick Elder scrolls universe history lession...
Dawn era:
Mer evolve on aldmeris, have magical affinity, maybe through connection to the aedra, maybe that's just their haughty myth.
Men evolve on Youkuda with some stamina affinity, and Atmora with toughness and some cold resistance.
- Merethic era:
Mer leave aldmeris, take over tamriel, split into different groups, these aldmer settle different regions and slowly start to adapt to them, one way or another - auridion (altmer) and high rock , hammerfell (sinmer), skyrim (falmer snow elves), valenwood (bosmer), cyrodil (ayleids), dwemer under the land (though actually they might have been here before all the others, noone really knows for sure), conquer the beastfolk in elsweyr and argonia, squabble with the dragons, split off religious splinter groups (chimer, orsimer - the latter with a pretty extensive genetic transformation thanks to daedric price involvement) and so on...
Later on, Men come there was well, from atmora (nedes), fight the mer, defeat them and build their own kingdoms in some cases (skyrim), are conquered and enslaved by mer in others (high rock).
- 1st Era:
Dragons are gone now, mortals rule... and fight each other. Direnni elves interbreed with their nede slaves, chimer and dwemer fight each other and the nedes who are slowly turning into the nords of today... eventually Alessian rebellions sweep through cyrodil as nedic slaves overthrow their ayleid masters (and start their journey on becoming imperials), only the direnni withstand them, but eventually also get absorbed into the bretons, dwemer vanish and chimer are cursed into dunmer (again, daedric intervention), and youkudans land in hammerfell, kill the sinmer and everything else with their curved swords and take the land for their own.
Lots of fighting, changing borders, alliances made and broken, et cetera.

The point is... there isn't even a common origin for redguards and altmer! And they never intermingled on a major scale either. So why would the altmer magica affinity gene be in the redguard genepool???

Add times to this, how much time did it take for those subraces who adapted to change? And the beastfolk that you mentioned - what about their affinities? Again, argonian in morrowind come to mind.

But the most important thing here is that your own post proves you wrong. I'll bold what's important. See that? So turns out, you can change your racial passives from magicka to stamina depending on where you live? Or who did they breed with so that bosmer have stamina affinity but not magicka. And how come the same can't happen to Men races? Then it's not a problem to add a tribe that was breeding with elves or whatever and is carrying the genes.

Also really? You think there was no intermingling with altmer? Like really, you're sure that redguards took no slaves and *** no sinmer? But more importantly - who cares about major scale? Most of us are more than happy to play exceptions while all redguard NPCs have stamina passives and altmer - magicka, etc.

Anyway, case in point - bosmer. Magicka origin, didn't breed with no humans (there were none in valenwood, since the come from North(atmora) and West(Yokuda) much later , yet - we have elves with stamina affinity. That's what is very clear from your history lesson.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...because unlike the bretons, redguards never intermingled with elves!
They killed them instead!
If that so hard to understand?

Yes it is. Because elves never intermingled with anyone in valenwood, yet we have bosmer who have absolutely no magicka affinity but stamina affinity instead. And according to you can bosmer have magicka passives? You know, because they are elves so definitely carry those genes, right? But we do see that all of them somehow have stamina genes now. So what does it tell us? That stamina gene is dominant and magicka gene is recessive? Or maybe vice versa, doesn't matter, but there definitely are options.Therefore, it shouldn't surprise you if races that aren't known for their magicka affinity will have individuals with those characteristics. Like bosmer. There is no reason they can't have them.

Also, yeah, it's hard to understand that they killed them. Absolutely unbelievable, wars aren't fought like that. Multiple Ra Gada - elven kids were born, I guarantee that. Massive amounts of women ***, elves kept there etc. Or link a source proving otherwise. Without such thing, why wouldn't you follow common sense?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Funny, I keep thinking that is what YOU seem to be doing here... with your arguments to support the notion of how racial attributes should jump over to other races "just because they grew up there". You do know evolution for that takes a little time, right, no matter what the X-men movies say?

No you can't keep thinking anything, because it's my first comment.

You are not the one to say anything about evolution. You just mentioned how elves got stamina passives just because they grew up in valenwood. And I'm not talking about growing up either way. I'm saying that for one particular individual of ANY race it is possible to have any mix of the genes which can result in any mix of racial passives. And we can play that individual of we choose to instead of playing common representatives of their races.

No reason to restrict us and not let us be as effective in magic as possible if we are playing a khajit or argonian or bosmer etc.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Actually... that's not my sayings, but the elder scrolls lore.
And yeah, I expect they only added that "child is race of the mother" part so they wouldn't be bothered by people asking for "hybrids" - or at least that is the most likely explenation.

And agreed, they sort of contrtadict themselves on the bretons. Bosmer are also supposed to have some mannish blood IIRC (possibly deer as well for all we know). Probably they would make up some fluff about how such intermingling was possible back in that era, or how the direnni did it as experiment... or how it takes ages of intermingling before any such effect shows, and more before they breed true, which is my personal choice for fluff explenation...

But that contradiction is not mine, I am just working with what I have...

I know it's tes lore, but if you bring it up, then you're saying it's not dumb. When it clearly is. So yeah it's a dumb explanation and is definitely not a reason not to let us have racials more like in TES when they all had the same cap.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Agreed. Sort of. And they made that decision a looooong time ago, and wrote it into the elder scroll lore...
...
And now people say "change the lore becuase we want to min/max everything" and build arguments to support their point.
And some say "Nay! Don't feed the min/maxxers!" and build counterarguments.
So? What else is new?

They changed the lore with many other things - see my other comment in this thread, for example. Might as well change the lore again. BUT that's not at all about this.

It's about having things like TES games, where we can play any race without feeling that we're gimping ourselves or having any doubts. We could just enjoy the game. Give us that again. No one even asks to change lore. Just change the system to be like in TES games, where all races have the same caps at everything and racials don't mean anything in the endgame (except maybe for some racial flavor - like swimming speed, lava damage etc).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...I am the one saying the union of two caucasian parents would not produce a child with aftican pigmentation, you say otherwise, but I an the common sense denier???
...
Yeah, suuuuure.

Yes sure. That's exactly why. You don't science at all, I see. Yes two caucasian parents would produce a child with african pigmentation and vice versa. It is possible. You keep denying science.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And if you had actually -read- what I post instead of just decreing me, you would realize that I am NOT arguing against that. I mean...

I point out that you have no idea what you're talking about when you bring redheaded parents and african pigmented children. I happen to science more than you and I hate when people bring up their pseudo-knowledge and use a few terms here and there just so their argument seems stronger.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
...that IS pretty much what I am suggesting there, is it not?
I liked that in older TES games. I'd love to have it in ESO.

Yes this is good enough and everyone would be happy with this. But either way, you were wrong saying no bosmer or redguard can have magicka affinity. Common sense and science both say that they can. And you are the one who started bringing science into it when you mentioned natural selection. And in this case you applied it poorly. I had to point that out.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Well, as far as stats go anyways, you may remember that the different races -also- had different resistances... maybe not in the earliest games, but they did later on, and all that ought to be preserved ans its part of what made the elder scrolls so nifty in my eyes... but we are talking stats here, and there I really am not set on the current mess. (after all, among my alts I have dunmer stamblades, argonian DKs, nord sorcerors... not exactly the super-effective way to play, yes?)

Different resistances are ok. That means different races feel it easier in different conditions. But DPS passives = some races are just bad and not needed. There's no reason to play them for anyone who cares about his performance.

hmsdragonfly

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ZOS is not the first one who changed Cyrodiil's layout. Bethesda did it in Oblivion, they were like "screw it, let's just say Talos shouted the jungle away", we all know that explanation is silly, but since it enhances the gameplay and the change is reasonable, we don't really care. Well, some people do care, but oh well, we cannot please everyone.
Let be honest, the endless jungle thingy is silly and it cripples the gameplay, so, in reality, Bethesda realized that they made a mistake and they decided to rewrite that part of the lore. So, they gave us a silly explanation. Same with ZOS. ZOS's excuse is that "Phrastus of Elinhir, whom states that Cyrodiil never was a jungle and that the only reason it was recorded as such is because of an error in transcription by the classical author Heimskr, believing the original copied text translated to "extensive uplands. Phrastus' rival, Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, states that the landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land"
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cyrodiil

So, according to Lady Cinnabar of Taneth and Phrastus of Elinhir, they never had been a jungle before E2. People might have started growing a jungle between 2E 582 and 3E, you know, "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", that's the jungle Talos "shouted away", so the explanation still makes sense.

So, that's not a mistake or "a fail". ZOS intentionally rewrote this particular part of the lore to enhance the gameplay, and the change is green lit by Bethesda. Yes, the explanation is as silly as the explanation Bethesda gave us in Oblivion ("Talos just shouted the jungle away, don't ask us why and how").

See, the thing is that the explanation in Oblivion wasn't silly because it didn't contradict anything. He might as well have shouted it away. Or they could say that some climate change happened or whatever. No contradiction here, really.

But the 2nd paragraph of yours seems silly. Why would people grow jungle? Who even does that at all? But not even that. The jungle did stay in the book when it was published for the use at that time. Which means, obviously, that at the moment of publishing there was a jungle. And the first time it was mentioned in a guide written by cinnabar. And once again - it was written in present time. Read the text I quoted. Prior to ESO she wasn't translating anything. She was describing things the way they were. She wrote the book, the translation thing is just an attempt to cover up the fail, and quite a pathetic one, too.

Obviously they rewrote and bethesda was ok with that. It doesn't mean it's not a fail, because they couldn't give a good explanation. So it is a fail. It's just not a mistake lol.

The explanation in Oblivion was silly, Talos shouted the jungle away lul. The explanation in ESO didn't contradict anything.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition was written by a Mer, it wasn't in Cyrodillic at first, Heimskr then translated it. "Jungle" was a mistake made by Heimskr, it was supposed to be "extensive uplands", according to Phrastus.

Why would people grow jungle? "landscape of Cyrodiil changes to the desires of the people who rule the land", it literally means "because we want to, problem?". It's not impossbile that something like that can happen, so, there's no contradiction whatsoever. Yes, it's silly that people would do something like that, but "People had grown tired of the jungle so Talos shouted it away" is just equally silly.

Hope this is clear for you.

And again, it wasn't "a fail" lol. It is as silly as Bethesda's explanation in Oblivion, yes, that's true, but there's no contradiction whatsoever.