Racial Affinity

hmsdragonfly

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

R/teslore is where I got that thread i quoted from.

Same as this: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/290bmc/how_accurate_is_eso_with_its_lore/

And this: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2rkdfs/about_eso_can_it_fit_in_canon_do_you_accept_it_as/

Also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/5jpvpj/i_dont_think_eso_is_that_lore_breaking/

zaria

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.

Not so.

Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")

Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)

That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...

Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.

No, you should!
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:

The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...

...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...

Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.

What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...

I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.

Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.

But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.

ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.

There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.

If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.

So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.

Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.

Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.

Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.

Just because you read it on Reddit doesn't make you an authority. Like I said, you are right that eso lore is canon NOW, but it wasn't at first, and it didn't go over well at all with a lot of people. I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind.

But honestly, where you get your lore knowledge from doesn't matter, my point is, the lore was changed a LOT. Talk to some players that started when eso first released, the arguments over lore were huge, because a lot was modified to fit ZOS's vision of the lore.

I know that it's all green lit by Bethesda NOW, it wasn't at first. ZOS has a ton of power with Bethesda and a lot of the lore changes were strong armed into place, in much of it Bethesda didn't have a lot of choice, ZOS had control. A ton of players loyal to the lore were extremely upset by the changes made to it in eso.

I'm not going to argue with you, you can look it up and see all I'm saying is true. There were a lot more changes than minor plotholes as you said. Maybe that's what they are saying on Reddit, but a lot more changed than the lusty argonian maid.

Who major lore breaks is it? Argonians laying eggs was not clear before ESO as I know.
Senche is an major one, first senche in lore is far larger, second they are Khajiit and if not normal intelligence they should be far smarter than most animals, having them as tigers is stupid then they could just called them tigers and nobody would complain.
Some things are game-play restrains like city sizes in all games. Cyrodil is more open and flatter than in Oblvion to make it better for PvP,
Lore breaks is very interesting in it self.

its however pretty off topic here, let look at gameplay effects in previous games
Daggerfall no magic bonuses to races just skill and attribute bonuses and weakness / resist.
In Morrowind race had an 150% bonus on magic, none had health or fatigue / stamina bonuses
In Oblivion and Skyrim it was an flat bonus on magic, none had health or fatigue / stamina bonuses

In short resistance / weakness is standard.
Same with skill and old attribute bonuses however skills and attributes could be leveled to 100 not higher

In Skyrim and ESO we only have Magic, health and stamina, none of the old attributes.
ESO has only class and weapon skills with their sub skills.

An magic bonus to Altmer is standard. None races should have health or stamina bonuses as its an new invention.
Morrowind had an percentage increase in magic, Oblivion and Skyrim it was an flat bonus who was most useful in the start.
As your magic increases and you get better gear the fixed bonus become less and less important.

Had ESO had an fixed bonus for health, stamina and magic say 3-400 this had not been an issue.
Had ESO endgame been like Morrowind it had not been an issue, however soloing VMoL with an good build had been a bit stupid, why can we also not have other morrowind features like unlimited potion stacking to take the weakest exploit?

PlaceboSoul

Yes, and as I said, I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT LORE NOW. That thread you are directing me to is from 2017. If that is as far back as you are looking, you don't get the whole picture. The whole lore controversy happened in 2014, three years ago.

I have already said, it's true Bethesda has ruled eso lore as canon. I know, but it has nothing to do with what I said.

The lore was changed, it's retcon. That's all I'm saying, and you keep on saying it's canon, I don't care if it's canon, that doesn't change the fact that it WAS CHANGED.

hmsdragonfly

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

I am truly done though, you are arguing just to argue and its tiresome. I mean honestly, if you acknowledge what I was saying was correct then why the f are you shifting things and trying to win a nonexistent argument.

Attacking me for various parts of my defence to your initial attack, when you know what I said to be true? Wtf

Just stop. You're not even arguing about my point anymore, and you are the type of person who thinks they are right no matter what evidence is put before you, which I've done, and you still argue. You even direct me to the very thread I quoted from. Twice.

My initial point was only that the lore has been changed already, so it wouldn't be a big deal to change it more. That's just fact. The only part that was my opinion, is in what you just quoted, I would love to see eso stick to the original lore 100%, but since it's already been changed, that point is moot

The bold is my only opinion on the matter, the rest is fact, that you yourself have already conceded. If you notice as well, what I said in bold, my opinion, is in line with what you want as well.

So for tamriel's sake, just stop arguing. You are awesome and all knowing. There, happy?

"I mean honestly, if you acknowledge what I was saying was correct then why the f are you shifting things and trying to win a nonexistent argument." -> Ahem, that's you, not me. You are constantly shifting your argument and avoiding the point.
You are "the type of person who thinks they are right no matter what evidence is put before you" here.

Yes, I DO KNOW that your "initial point was only that the lore has been changed", and my point from like my 2nd comment is that: Bethesda says it's ok to be changed and there's a proper in-game explanation for the change, so it's fine, I don't see anything wrong with it, Bethesda has been rewriting lore since Morrowind, it's not something new. Don't avoid the point.

Yes, Auri-el be praised, I disagree with your bold thingy from like my 2nd comment, and somehow you always avoid it: it's totally fine if a few things are changed, Bethesda has been doing it since Morrowind, the changes are reasonable and there are proper in-game explanations.

Please, Auri-el be praised, for once please read what I have written.

hmsdragonfly

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

Yes, and as I said, I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT LORE NOW. That thread you are directing me to is from 2017. If that is as far back as you are looking, you don't get the whole picture. The whole lore controversy happened in 2014, three years ago.

I have already said, it's true Bethesda has ruled eso lore as canon. I know, but it has nothing to do with what I said.

The lore was changed, it's retcon. That's all I'm saying, and you keep on saying it's canon, I don't care if it's canon, that doesn't change the fact that it WAS CHANGED.

Again, you didn't read. What's wrong if a thread is not from the whole lore controversy in 2014? As I said, those people in 2014 simply didn't play the freaking game and didn't understand what was going on. The whole reddit post you quoted was debunked in 4 lines. Now, when people have played through the game and understand what is going on, few people complain about lore any more. Just like Red Diamond passive. At first people were "extremely upset" because they thought "Red Diamond = P2W", now they realize actually it's not OP at all, no one complains about it any more. Also, I fail to see how a few people can be that close-minded and refuse to give up things like Cyrodiil's jungle. The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it.

Yes, I DO KNOW that your "initial point was only that the lore has been changed", and my point from like my 2nd comment is that: Bethesda says it's ok to be changed and there's a proper in-game explanation for the change, so it's fine, I don't see anything wrong with it, Bethesda has been rewriting lore since Morrowind, it's not something new. Don't avoid the point.

DragonBound

I think what might work better is each race have something more unique like racial abilities, or even racial procs would be really awesome, along with more balanced passives. I think the issue is many are uninteresting and just bland, not to mention the fact when it comes to magicka everyone rolls high elf.

fosokles

Definitely endorse the idea of race having purely visual impact. Current system makes you less competitive with your build if you're using non-complementary race.

hmsdragonfly

Smepic wrote: »

Why are you so opposed to my suggestion? Does the thought of my Redguard having a max magicka passive bother you that much?

@Smepic
Actually, Magicka bonus as a racial passive for Redguards is the most unimmersive and unlorefriendly thing I can think of. xD
Have you done the questline in Alik'r Desert? xD I think the writers made it pretty clear that Redguards and magic don't mix most of the time :P Yes, there are still a few Redguard mages, but they are in great disadvantage compared to those Altmer mages.

Cimadon

@hmsdragonfly
@PlaceboSoul

Iv'e been following your discussion. And I must say something, because the amount of mental gymnastics PlaceboSoul does is staggering.

You ignore alot of the evidence he puts forward you come up with alot of strawmans and accuse dragonfly of doing exactly what YOU are doing. It's not even funny, each time I thought: "wow he ignored evidence" and "I think he jut argues for arguings sake" you came in the next post and accused dragonfly of those things. And I have no investment in lore, I couldn't care less about racial passives.

Dude... Stop.

Cimadon

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial...

...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying... )
Nope!

The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"

And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.

And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...

@TheShadowScout

Again, allow me to quote a sentence from a previous post.

Smepic wrote: »

There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.

No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.

I agree, most would have an affinity to the culture they are brought up in, but affinity is not "good at" it's "I like this".

Affinities have nothing to do with it, these are racial passives/"skills", what I would call genetics. Genes play a big role in what you are able to do naturally (bother physical and mental) in the real world, this holds true for TES lore aswell. And is still separated by race (although the gap in difference in genetic potential, gets smaller and smaller as time goes on).

With that said, I like how the racial passives work now, but wouldn't object to your proposals, if they got implemented.

Skayaq

zaria wrote: »

An magic bonus to Altmer is standard. None races should have health or stamina bonuses as its an new invention.
Morrowind had an percentage increase in magic, Oblivion and Skyrim it was an flat bonus who was most useful in the start.
As your magic increases and you get better gear the fixed bonus become less and less important.

Had ESO had an fixed bonus for health, stamina and magic say 3-400 this had not been an issue.
Had ESO endgame been like Morrowind it had not been an issue, however soloing VMoL with an good build had been a bit stupid, why can we also not have other morrowind features like unlimited potion stacking to take the weakest exploit?

While no races directly had health or stamina bonuses, some did have extra endurance and you gained extra health and stamina based on your current endurance, so the races with bonus endurance did end up having more helath and stamina than other races.

zaria

Cimadon wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial...

...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying... )
Nope!

The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"

And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.

And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...

@TheShadowScout

Again, allow me to quote a sentence from a previous post.

Smepic wrote: »

There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.

No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.

I agree, most would have an affinity to the culture they are brought up in, but affinity is not "good at" it's "I like this".

Affinities have nothing to do with it, these are racial passives/"skills", what I would call genetics. Genes play a big role in what you are able to do naturally (bother physical and mental) in the real world, this holds true for TES lore aswell. And is still separated by race (although the gap in difference in genetic potential, gets smaller and smaller as time goes on).

With that said, I like how the racial passives work now, but wouldn't object to your proposals, if they got implemented.

Again this has nothing to do with genetic, in ESO kids take the form of the mother, probably get some traits from father.
How do you explain Khajiit forms depending on the moons, I see it can cause some problems and probably lots of planning

And it has nothing to do with genetic either its about game balance, letting you select racial trait / birth traits / background independent on race solves an game balance issue.
Current system is neither very lore friendly as other has pointed out, nor do it match well with earlier games see my post above.
Birthsigns was not changeable after character creation before Skyrim either they would be perfect for this but is used.

The other option is to nerf it to the ground, and yes it will be an nerf for anybody who has selected race to optimize.
Soft caps might be the optimal solution but that will probably mess up more in all other directions.

Turelus

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.

Not so.

Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")

Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)

That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...

Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.

No, you should!
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:

The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...

...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...

Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.

What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...

I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.

Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.

But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.

ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.

There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.

If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.

So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.

Lore changes, if you're unhappy with the evolution of it only play the games you agree with.

You're free to point out inconsistencies but end of the day whatever is made lore here is lore, like it or not.

Cimadon

zaria wrote: »

Cimadon wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial...

...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying... )
Nope!

The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"

And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.

And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...

@TheShadowScout

Again, allow me to quote a sentence from a previous post.

Smepic wrote: »

There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.

No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.

I agree, most would have an affinity to the culture they are brought up in, but affinity is not "good at" it's "I like this".

Affinities have nothing to do with it, these are racial passives/"skills", what I would call genetics. Genes play a big role in what you are able to do naturally (bother physical and mental) in the real world, this holds true for TES lore aswell. And is still separated by race (although the gap in difference in genetic potential, gets smaller and smaller as time goes on).

With that said, I like how the racial passives work now, but wouldn't object to your proposals, if they got implemented.

Again this has nothing to do with genetic, in ESO kids take the form of the mother, probably get some traits from father.
How do you explain Khajiit forms depending on the moons, I see it can cause some problems and probably lots of planning

And it has nothing to do with genetic either its about game balance, letting you select racial trait / birth traits / background independent on race solves an game balance issue.
Current system is neither very lore friendly as other has pointed out, nor do it match well with earlier games see my post above.
Birthsigns was not changeable after character creation before Skyrim either they would be perfect for this but is used.

The other option is to nerf it to the ground, and yes it will be an nerf for anybody who has selected race to optimize.
Soft caps might be the optimal solution but that will probably mess up more in all other directions.

I'm not strong on lore, I just argued what affinity was and did a real world comparison. Not qualified to debate TES lore. ;-) I will however debate logic, reason and evidence and I often change my opinion when new evidence emerges.

One thing though, how does selecting appearance separate from racial passives help balance in game?

Duiwel

OP you knew about racial passives when you started, you chose your character for cosmetic reasons as have many others ( you get some Khajiit magicka sorcs / magicka NB's too) You also get Nord magicka sorcerer's.

You knew what you were sacrificing for the appearance. There is a fix if you want the raw dmg back - race change ( you guys asked for it, you got it!)

So please stop this: "all races should be equal and have the same passives"

This is ELDER SCROLLS, it has always been each race has a UNIQUE bonus.

Redguards are one of the best stamina races in the game if not the best. You can always swap over to stamina / pick up lich or warlock sets ect. if your resource management annoys you.

SanderBuraas

Duiwel wrote: »

OP you knew about racial passives when you started, you chose your character for cosmetic reasons as have many others ( you get some Khajiit magicka sorcs / magicka NB's too) You also get Nord magicka sorcerer's.

You knew what you were sacrificing for the appearance. There is a fix if you want the raw dmg back - race change ( you guys asked for it, you got it!)

So please stop this: "all races should be equal and have the same passives"

This is ELDER SCROLLS, it has always been each race has a UNIQUE bonus.

Redguards are one of the best stamina races in the game if not the best. You can always swap over to stamina / pick up lich or warlock sets ect. if your resource management annoys you.

@Duiwel

Just because previous games are a certain way does not mean ESO has to be identical. In Skyrim, for example, racial passives were purely defensive and utility based – not to mention how resources did not contribute to scaling. The bonuses were balanced, yet added a flare to each race. In ESO, however, racial passives give offensive bonuses and are percentages.

Duiwel

@Smepic this game had racial passives in BETA, in fact it had RACIAL ULTIMATES thanks to whiners it was removed which I still think is a tragedy...

Secondly this is not Skyrim, this game is much closer to Oblivion...

Thirdly this is an MMO and many mmo's have racials that determine certain things in fact WoW had racial passives as well up until Warlords of Draenor I believe when they decided to remove it much to my disapproval.

Racial passives do not hurt your immersion you are free to play your redguard magicka sorc OP. You are still able to do a ton of damage had you geared her up with the BiS sets and made it gold. You will be able to do any solo content solo, you will just not be on the top of leaderboards, you will have to heavy weave a bit more for resources but you can manage. ( I have a magicka NB khajiit I sometimes play) I once used my main (Imperial DK) as solely Magicka for a whole meta and I got use to it.

This is not a matter of ZoS being in the wrong here, you have a choice in this matter, you are choosing not to be the most ideal race for the class and spec you want to play.

Take responsibility for your decision OP.

Tommy_The_Gun

Cyrodil has already enough "stats" to take in to account. Racial bonus, gear bonus, CP bonus... It all stacks almost infinitely. So you have those ridiculous situation when 1 dude can make more dmg than trebuchet... Is that "normal" ?
Or better yet - this situation where 1 dude can't be killed by 15 others because he is healing super-fast and perma-blocking

Now when they disabled CP for testing I dare to say that I have encounter non of this ridiculous moments.
So bottom line I think that the less stats there is in PvP - the more balanced it will become.
ZOS should make a special campaign in witch all bonuses (racial, gear, CP) will be disabled and you will just get a "fixed" stats.

Izaki

Smepic wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial affinities.

It's funny cause Tamriel has more Racial Diversity than the real world does. Orcs. Elves. Humanoid Reptiles. Humanoid Felines. There's even Humanoid Fox people living somewhere out there hidden. But I'm sure you mean Diversity in the playerbase, cause everyone is choosing the same Races for their stats right? I dunno about that really, a lot of people go against that because of their other preferences.

Your idea though has merit. I'd LOVE to have a Khajiit that gets a Max Magicka bonus, but instead I'm stuck with the same Crit Chance and Weapon Damage passives which are utterly useless on Magicka builds.

@ArchMikem

Almost every character with a magicka build is a High Elf, just because of how good it is. I want people to play what they want without being significantly weaker.

In the current state of PvE, you could argue that Dumner are better than Altmer for most classes.

notimetocare

This is the argument of people so terrible they need 300dmg per hit to carry them. Argonian for life!

Tommy_The_Gun

For PvE sustain is sometimes more important than dps (but that does not mean that dps is not important at all). So for PvE race choice pretty much dose not meter that much. You can do "good enough" dps for PvE with any race. I was able to "solo" normal Fungal Grotto 1 on a stamina argonian NB (and as ridiculous as it sounds it is possible to do).

The problem starts in PvP - because now magicka builds tend to deal more dmg, and everyone (even ganker assassins) use magicka builds. Most common race (regardless of alliance) currently is Altmer. But don't worry about this. If too many people will play Altmer - ZOS will simple nerf some of its racial passives - that is all. They did that previously with other "too popular" races so I don't think it will be different in case of Atmer.

zaria

Duiwel wrote: »

OP you knew about racial passives when you started, you chose your character for cosmetic reasons as have many others ( you get some Khajiit magicka sorcs / magicka NB's too) You also get Nord magicka sorcerer's.

You knew what you were sacrificing for the appearance. There is a fix if you want the raw dmg back - race change ( you guys asked for it, you got it!)

So please stop this: "all races should be equal and have the same passives"

This is ELDER SCROLLS, it has always been each race has a UNIQUE bonus.

Redguards are one of the best stamina races in the game if not the best. You can always swap over to stamina / pick up lich or warlock sets ect. if your resource management annoys you.

Read my above post, the only game race had any practical effect in endgame was Morrowind in that Altmer had +50% magic, but that game was so easy you single hit to kill everything except vivec. It also had plenty of legendary exploits.

Yes its racial differences in all TES games, they matter the first 10-15 levels irrelevant afterward. How many of them have you played?
Ignoring weaknesses here who was less important as they are in ESO. Also ignoring fluff.

In short ESO is unlike any TES game except Altmer and magic, its also an competitive game.
Again the simplest solution is to nerf it to the ground as they should do then they removed soft cap, give out 10 skillpoint to compensate.
it was lots of protest against the racial passives in the start, but they was seen an very marginal because of soft cap.
And yes its plenty of returning players from that time now.

Tommy_The_Gun

zaria wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

OP you knew about racial passives when you started, you chose your character for cosmetic reasons as have many others ( you get some Khajiit magicka sorcs / magicka NB's too) You also get Nord magicka sorcerer's.

You knew what you were sacrificing for the appearance. There is a fix if you want the raw dmg back - race change ( you guys asked for it, you got it!)

So please stop this: "all races should be equal and have the same passives"

This is ELDER SCROLLS, it has always been each race has a UNIQUE bonus.

Redguards are one of the best stamina races in the game if not the best. You can always swap over to stamina / pick up lich or warlock sets ect. if your resource management annoys you.

Read my above post, the only game race had any practical effect in endgame was Morrowind in that Altmer had +50% magic, but that game was so easy you single hit to kill everything except vivec. It also had plenty of legendary exploits.

Yes its racial differences in all TES games, they matter the first 10-15 levels irrelevant afterward. How many of them have you played?
Ignoring weaknesses here who was less important as they are in ESO. Also ignoring fluff.

In short ESO is unlike any TES game except Altmer and magic, its also an competitive game.
Again the simplest solution is to nerf it to the ground as they should do then they removed soft cap, give out 10 skillpoint to compensate.
it was lots of protest against the racial passives in the start, but they was seen an very marginal because of soft cap.
And yes its plenty of returning players from that time now.

Caps could be good. So what it will do is even if an altmer will use a Necropotence set (with gives you like 7K more magicka) he/she will already hit the cap. So lets say that altmer will have more magicka "faster" than other races so you will be able to focus on something that you are lacking (spell dmg, spell crit etc)

dodgehopper_ESO

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Can we stop with these threads? This idea has been suggested before, the majority don't care to change it.

How about no? Your response is juvenile.

There is a way to give each race an edge without making it based upon percentile bonuses. I personally would much rather see them afford static bonuses and I have suggested this for a while. The racial bonuses are far too meaningful more so than any of the last 3 TES games.

TheShadowScout

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You do realize Nords are only resistant to the cold because they are "TOLERANT" to it due to growing up in a cold region just like Dunmer are "TOLERANT" to heat because Morrowind is Hot, other features such as Khajiit having claws or Argonians being able to breath underwater is genetic but most of it isn't.

You -do- know how natural selection works, right?
Because you see... "tolerant" because you grew up somewhere is one thing... "tolerant" because your ancestors have been growing up somewhere for the last dozend centuries is quite another.

What you are saying is basically that genes don't matter, and an pale, redheaded irish person will magically become just as "tolerant" to sunburn like a black-skinned central african person if they just "grew up" in africa.
I don't think so.

Yes, they might be more used to it... but not to the extent of someone who has generations of adaptation in their ancestry!
...
...actually that -could- make a second part to "cultural passives" - the first determining what culture a character grew up in, the second to determine what lands a character grew up in!
Have a Orsimer born in the cold mountains of wrothgar, get a little cold resistance, have a orsimer who grew up with craftsmen (craftsorc?) parents in the alik'r, get a little heat resistance, have another orsimer born among valenwood wood orcs... I dunno, get a stealth bonus for sneaking through forests or something? I think, maybe a third to half of what those bred for it might enjoy in way of passives would be plausibe...
I for one would love that!
More ways to diversify our characters!

Oh, and by the way... much of Morrowind isn't exactly "hot" per se... unless you stand next to a lava flow. Which are pretty present, so that is not too uncommon, but... spend a night out in the ashlands without a speeling bag, and you'll see what I mean while freezing off your b... e-hem!
The interesting question for dunmer passives of course is - did their flame resistance evolve naturally over time, due to morrowinds ever-present laval flows, or was part of the post battle-of-red-mountain transformation? Personally I think latter, it would fit with the "skin turn ashen-grey" shtick and the whole "biggest volcano around involved" thing... but until I see some chimer passives that of course is pure speculation.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

If Nords are such bad mages then explain...

Never said they were bad mages. Just said they did not have the inneate magica affinity altmer are born with, so nord mages would just need to work a bit harder on their mage-ing to be great. Which they obviously do on occasion. Well, some do, most seem more into swinging large axes and drinking large kegs of mead, but... well, that's nords for ya!

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

There is a way to give each race an edge without making it based upon percentile bonuses. I personally would much rather see them afford static bonuses and I have suggested this for a while. The racial bonuses are far too meaningful more so than any of the last 3 TES games.

Personally i would love to see that sort of thing! make the racial passives -less- meaningful so people are less pressured into taking "most effective" races for their character ideas!
Just as long as noone gets to cherry pick the "best" passives contrary to elder scrolls lore! And as long as the general theme of the raaces remain...

zaria

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

For PvE sustain is sometimes more important than dps (but that does not mean that dps is not important at all). So for PvE race choice pretty much dose not meter that much. You can do "good enough" dps for PvE with any race. I was able to "solo" normal Fungal Grotto 1 on a stamina argonian NB (and as ridiculous as it sounds it is possible to do).

The problem starts in PvP - because now magicka builds tend to deal more dmg, and everyone (even ganker assassins) use magicka builds. Most common race (regardless of alliance) currently is Altmer. But don't worry about this. If too many people will play Altmer - ZOS will simple nerf some of its racial passives - that is all. They did that previously with other "too popular" races so I don't think it will be different in case of Atmer.

Agree on sustain, that is also very much an class issue, an sorcerer with the lighting flood ultimate can do heavy attacks with it and restore magic while doing good damage.
My Templar has more issues but miss a skill morph.
And yes both are Khajiit and both predates soft cap removal.
No I have no plans for doing competitive trials and my dps issues is more about messing up rotation.

As said has been away for a long time, so don't know about previous race nerfs.
But that one race becomes meta since magic is better than stamina now and that race is best is very predictable. Afterwards it looks like Dumer becomes meta and later get the nerf if balance not shift to stamina. Conspiracy is that ZoS does this for race change in cash shop.
Reality is that they try to balance something who can not be balanced as system is fundamentally broken.
Min-maxers will flock to meta race, they will probably do it even if difference was down to the 2-3% bonus I see as just an flavor.

WuffyCerulei

I run vet trials with a lot of minmaxers, and my magicka khajiit probably drive them crazy. I don't expect them to carry me cuz my build isn't optimal either. I'll carry my own butt to the best of my ability. Also, it's not hard to reach 40k magicka on a khajiit, especially on a magsorc with both inner light and bound aegis.
The only magicka build on a kitter I've been having issues with magDK... Would probably help to get everything leveled too. Merely ground her through the New Life festival without really leveling stuff.
Also, there really should be a magicka-catering verison of the Khajiit with all the breeds in the lore. Heck, a Dagi-raht or Suthay-raht with 10% magicka recovery on the first passive and spell crit on the last would be fine.

mr_wazzabi

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

If anything, being musclar should mean you deal lots of damage and run faster
Being fat means you have a lot of health and resistance except for magic and food poisoning
Being skinny should mean good regenerations and magic resistance

This would be awesome

zaria

One extra issue its not the hard min-maxers who inflate the Altmer population they are pretty few.
Its all the other players who follow build guides and help for character creation.

Yes I follow builds myself, no way to knowing that sharpened weapons was better than anything else or that Julianos was the best crafted DPS set even if stats look good.

Nelson_Rebel

Sorry I don't agree with this


This is a staple in MMO's and especially in Elder scrolls games, the fact is that ingame these races are literally different from each other on cellular levels and have different aedric and daedric influences on them. Dunmer, orsimer, bosmer specifically, then the beast races Khajiit and argonian have their own weird mojo's with the moons of lorkhan and the hist for argonians.

It's part of the lore and will always be part of the games. Don't bring in Real life issues with skin pigment issues into this game we love