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Racial Affinity
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TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying...Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial...
)
Nope!
The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"
And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.
And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...
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RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭In other TES game, racials have four impacts (depending of the game) :
- resistances (magic, fire, thunder, frost, poison, and even elemental weakness for altmer). They are nearly here on ESO.
- gameplay affinity (bonus stat in some skills, like alchemy, armor, magic school…) who help to begin with some advantage, but the max stat are common to everyone. Some are approximatively here on ESO, with the 10% bonus xp on armor or weapon skill line.
- special skill or passive sometime, like water breathing, night vision or dragon skin (nearly absent from ESO's tool).
- resource management for breton and altmer (bonus magicka, who does NOT give more damage, only more spells before running out of magicka), who take two forms on ESO : resources passives (regens, stamina on hit, magicka cost reduction) and max stat pool, who improve damage in ESO -and there is the real problem here-.Edited by RoyJade on March 2, 2017 9:31PM0 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying...Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial... )
Nope!
The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"
And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.
And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...
I agree with you, I have been playing TES games all the way back to Arena, but eso has made it harder to be a stickler to lore, by in many cases completely bastardizing it. I get it, a lot has to do with balance, and an mmo is a much more complex animal than a single player rpg, but there it is.
The racial passives already differ in many ways from the lore of the single player franchise, similar, but there are differences. Again, sacrifices have to be made to fit lore from a single player hero style universe into an mmo.
That said, I agree with you, a secondary set of passives would be a better option. I think really most of what the TC was trying to say was that some races are much more powerful in class roles than others. I mean, I wouldn't expect an Orc to grow gills or anything. But an Orc growing up in altmer society having stronger magicka affinity through training with his adopted family? I could wrap my mind around that. But of course, as you said, some of the passives are less interchangeably for sure, like claws and gills.
That circles us around to the real issue again, which is bending the lore from a 2 decade long lore library from a single player series, to fit into an mmo structure. It's a tough thing to do.
Besides, I really wouldn't ever expect a redguard sorcerer to be as powerful as an altmer, but as it stands now, with racial passives cutting a larger effect into the game, altmer are so much more powerful than a redguard, almost any other race really, that the only viable reason to stray from the logical choice is pure rp.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!1 -
SanderBuraas✭✭✭✭✭
@TheShadowScoutTheShadowScout wrote: »
...and that Breton growing up in black marsh suddenly has gills and webbed toes? Or the Khajiit growing up as dunmer slave in Deshaan suddenly is fire-resistant? Or that dunmer in Greenshade grows claws? (well, he IS trying...Lore explanation an Orc growing up at summerset isles with mage parents get the high elf racial... )
Nope!
The fluff behind the racial passives is NOT upbringing, but either physical attributes, or centuries upon centuries of natural selection.
You don't change that sort of thing by just "growing up among -insert race/culture-"
And thus, all of us lorelovers would -hate- it, and have been vocal about that from the first time some gamer suggested it.
And that is why I keep proposing an -additional- set of passives to reflect the "nurture" part of a characters background...
Again, allow me to quote a sentence from a previous post.There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.
No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unless you're going for world no.1 times on leader boards racial passives don't matter as much as everyone says they do.
Player skill, gear and build are worth way more than the passives.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
SanderBuraas✭✭✭✭✭
@TurelusUnless you're going for world no.1 times on leader boards racial passives don't matter as much as everyone says they do.
Player skill, gear and build are worth way more than the passives.
From a PvP perspective, racial passives matter quite a lot. Magicka not only increases the amount of skills I can use, but the damage of them. As a Redguard magicka Sorcerer, when I duel another Sorcerer, my damage shields are weaker, my damage is worse and I can use less skills.
If resources didn't contribute to scaling, racial passives would matter less – but they do, hence my thread.
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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Player skill is far more important in PvP than the racials, sure if you have two perfectly matched players in skill this might become a decider but for the most part you reactions, gear and knowledge of the class will play a far bigger role in combat.
@TurelusUnless you're going for world no.1 times on leader boards racial passives don't matter as much as everyone says they do.
Player skill, gear and build are worth way more than the passives.
From a PvP perspective, racial passives matter quite a lot. Magicka not only increases the amount of skills I can use, but the damage of them. As a Redguard magicka Sorcerer, when I duel another Sorcerer, my damage shields are weaker, my damage is worse and I can use less skills.
If resources didn't contribute to scaling, racial passives would matter less – but they do, hence my thread.
I've seen successful players PvP with the best of them (1v1, 1vX, small gang, full raid) and win whilst being stupid combinations or old school Argonians.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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@ArchMikemEven though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial affinities.
It's funny cause Tamriel has more Racial Diversity than the real world does. Orcs. Elves. Humanoid Reptiles. Humanoid Felines. There's even Humanoid Fox people living somewhere out there hidden. But I'm sure you mean Diversity in the playerbase, cause everyone is choosing the same Races for their stats right? I dunno about that really, a lot of people go against that because of their other preferences.
Your idea though has merit. I'd LOVE to have a Khajiit that gets a Max Magicka bonus, but instead I'm stuck with the same Crit Chance and Weapon Damage passives which are utterly useless on Magicka builds.
Almost every character with a magicka build is a High Elf, just because of how good it is. I want people to play what they want without being significantly weaker.
Dunmer is optimal for nonsorcs and non distinguishable on sorcs on magica builds for pve.
Breton, dunmer, highelf and argonian are all equally vaible pvp wise.
It´s not as bad as you´re making it out to be.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Agree here, player skills are way more important in PvP, in PvE its an upper limit on player skills, if you know your skill well, have an pretty perfect rotation even under fire and know the mechanic, you can do everything, yes you need good gear and good coordination with team to do hard raids but its an upper limit.
Player skill is far more important in PvP than the racials, sure if you have two perfectly matched players in skill this might become a decider but for the most part you reactions, gear and knowledge of the class will play a far bigger role in combat.
@TurelusUnless you're going for world no.1 times on leader boards racial passives don't matter as much as everyone says they do.
Player skill, gear and build are worth way more than the passives.
From a PvP perspective, racial passives matter quite a lot. Magicka not only increases the amount of skills I can use, but the damage of them. As a Redguard magicka Sorcerer, when I duel another Sorcerer, my damage shields are weaker, my damage is worse and I can use less skills.
If resources didn't contribute to scaling, racial passives would matter less – but they do, hence my thread.
I've seen successful players PvP with the best of them (1v1, 1vX, small gang, full raid) and win whilst being stupid combinations or old school Argonians.
PvP is way more complex as the enemy adapts, I remember then vampires was devastating in PvP we learned how to counter them fast, then they got nerfed.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not in the elder scrolls universe!Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance.
Its a distinct part of the elder scrolls lore that some races are just better at some things then other races.
Nords are better at bring tough then Dunmer, Dunmer are better at fire then Argonians, Argonains are better at swimming then all... Bretons are better at magic then Redguards, Redguards re better at swordswinging then Orcs, Orcs are better at bring tough then Redguards. Altmer are better at magic then Bosmer, Bosmer are better at Arrows then Khajiit, Khajiit are better at being catty then everyone...
Live with it!
That being said...
...while I really would not support changing the -racial- passives contrary to elder scrolls lore, I have mentioned several times before there is one thing that could be done - adding cultural passives!
Like, not every breton is born in a castle and learns magic from childhood. What about those born in city homes, where their commoner parents have no money to pay for magic lessions, and thus they grow up working in the family business instead before they are sick of sewing clothes or whatnot and decide to go adventuring? Or the ones who grew up on a farm in the country, working the fields to support their parents in their youth?
So I would think, there could be an addition to the passives, with "culturel passives".
You might get, say, three choices for every race, with a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... one "nobleborn" for magica builds, gold gain and haggling with vendors; one "commonborn" for stamina builds, stealth and crafting and one "countryborn" for toughness, item drop and gathering perks.
Depending on the race those could be different designations... Dunmer would have Nobles, Commoners and Ashlanders, Orsimer could have Trinimac followers, Malacath followers and Wood Orcs; Bretons could have Nobles, Commoners and Countryfolk, Redguards could have Crowns, Forebears and Ash'aba, and so on...
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Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭All combat related racial passives bonuses could be switched to flat values scaling with level instead of percentage. So, if you want a magicka build on a redguard, or a stamina highelf, you'll still benefit from you passives, you'll be able to spend point elsewhere to balance your build.
This way, you could truly benefit from each of your racials passive, whatever your build. Because a 10% bonus on magicka is nearly useless when you have 9k magicka, while a raw bonus of 1500-2500 magicka for exemple would still benefit for everyone, even if it's less optimized for full magicka builds. But, this way, the passives would become useful for 'non related' builds, and still allow 'related' builds to be more effective than those on non optimized races.PC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...3 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Soft caps might well be the best idea, however it would require re-balancing the entire combat system who is an huge effort and not needed for this. letting you set bonus independently of race is one easier option.TheShadowScout wrote: »What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
Another is to nerf it. Making it an fixed bonus rather than an percentage would make it more in line with the elder scroll games where it was an starting bonus mostly. Getting +400 magic, stamina or health would be nice at the start but pretty irrelevant at end game same with regeneration. Add bonus to learning skills, resistances and some fun stuff swimming speed fall damage bonus to pick pocket, perhaps crafting bonuses like getting 20% more ore.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ever since soft caps were removed, racial passives have mattered more than ever. A ten percent boost to your highest resource, which also increases your damage and healing output, matters. One of my characters is a Redguard magicka Sorcerer, mostly because Redguard females are prettiest.
Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance. For example, if you have thirty thousand magicka, an optimal race adds three thousand more magicka, almost as much as a food buff. I believe that racial affinities should be added to the game.
Racial affinities would be ethnicities or cultures of a race, similar to nationalities in LotRO – though they give appearance options instead. Affinities would add more depth and customization, as well as allow you to optimize your build with every race. There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.
Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial afffinities.
Lore is important to the TES series. As you may not know, Redguards hate magic. If you do the questline of Alik'r Desert, you will see those Redguards run like chicken when they see a couple of summoned zombies.
I don't care which MMO you have played, as this is an ELDER SCROLLS game, it has to stay true to the Lore. Meaning, a High Elf will always have much more potential than a Redguard at magic. If you are good, you can make a Redguard mage, and still beat some adept High Elf mages, but you are not going to beat the best High Elf mage in Tamriel, and so should it stay.
Edited by hmsdragonfly on March 3, 2017 2:09AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!2 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ever since soft caps were removed, racial passives have mattered more than ever. A ten percent boost to your highest resource, which also increases your damage and healing output, matters. One of my characters is a Redguard magicka Sorcerer, mostly because Redguard females are prettiest.
Still, it sucks that she is weaker due to her race, which honestly only should dictate her appearance. For example, if you have thirty thousand magicka, an optimal race adds three thousand more magicka, almost as much as a food buff. I believe that racial affinities should be added to the game.
Racial affinities would be ethnicities or cultures of a race, similar to nationalities in LotRO – though they give appearance options instead. Affinities would add more depth and customization, as well as allow you to optimize your build with every race. There could be three affinities for every race, all different from each other, but similar in that they focus on one resource.
Even though Tamriel is different from the real world, your race does not decide your fate. Let's promote racial diversity with racial afffinities.
Female bosmers are best wifeys tho0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.Edited by hmsdragonfly on March 3, 2017 2:30AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!2 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You do realize Nords are only resistant to the cold because they are "TOLERANT" to it due to growing up in a cold region just like Dunmer are "TOLERANT" to heat because Morrowind is Hot, other features such as Khajiit having claws or Argonians being able to breath underwater is genetic but most of it isn't.TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
If Nords are such bad mages then explain how Arch-Mage Shaildor, Ahzidel, Miraak (You know he actually has a 1 handed lighting storm spell that he only uses if you fly on the back of a dragon when you fight him) are such skilled mages? explain the Dragon Priests who were all Nords, You need magic competence to become a lich like them you know, explain what Tsun states to the Dragonborn if they mention they are to enter the Hall of Valor by right of being the Arch-mage of Winterhold, he states this...
"Well met, mage of Skyrim. The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still."
Also just incase you are unaware did you know that in Morrowind the Nords had an ice spell as one of their racial powers? them having a boost to ice magic makes a lot of sense.
Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on March 3, 2017 2:45AM0 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.
Just because you read it on Reddit doesn't make you an authority. Like I said, you are right that eso lore is canon NOW, but it wasn't at first, and it didn't go over well at all with a lot of people. I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind.
But honestly, where you get your lore knowledge from doesn't matter, my point is, the lore was changed a LOT. Talk to some players that started when eso first released, the arguments over lore were huge, because a lot was modified to fit ZOS's vision of the lore.
I know that it's all green lit by Bethesda NOW, it wasn't at first. ZOS has a ton of power with Bethesda and a lot of the lore changes were strong armed into place, in much of it Bethesda didn't have a lot of choice, ZOS had control. A ton of players loyal to the lore were extremely upset by the changes made to it in eso.
I'm not going to argue with you, you can look it up and see all I'm saying is true. There were a lot more changes than minor plotholes as you said. Maybe that's what they are saying on Reddit, but a lot more changed than the lusty argonian maid.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.
Just because you read it on Reddit doesn't make you an authority. Like I said, you are right that eso lore is canon NOW, but it wasn't at first, and it didn't go over well at all with a lot of people. I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind.
But honestly, where you get your lore knowledge from doesn't matter, my point is, the lore was changed a LOT. Talk to some players that started when eso first released, the arguments over lore were huge, because a lot was modified to fit ZOS's vision of the lore.
I know that it's all green lit by Bethesda NOW, it wasn't at first. ZOS has a ton of power with Bethesda and a lot of the lore changes were strong armed into place, in much of it Bethesda didn't have a lot of choice, ZOS had control. A ton of players loyal to the lore were extremely upset by the changes made to it in eso.
I'm not going to argue with you, you can look it up and see all I'm saying is true. There were a lot more changes than minor plotholes as you said. Maybe that's what they are saying on Reddit, but a lot more changed than the lusty argonian maid.
Come on man, because you started playing since Arena doesn't make you an authority. It also doesn't make your vision of lore the absolute truth. What's wrong with lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind? As we all know, Bethesda only started to invest a lot in the lore since Morrowind, it gets interesting since Morrowind that's why many lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind. Bethesda has been rewritten their unfit lore since Morrowind, notably the whole naming system.
And no, the lore has been canon since the beginning.
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2012/10/18/reading-the-future-of-the-past-in-the-elder-scrolls
Everything you see is green lit by Bethesda. Hate it or love it, disagree or agree, Bethesda owns the IP, we don't. Lore is what they say it is.
"ZOS forcing Bethesda to accept their lore" is more or less tin-foil theory. Sorry, I don't have any tin-foil hat...
Yeah player were also extremely upset that "Red Diamond passive = P2W", that passive is proven to be useless now. Players simply didn't have the chance to experience enough of the lore at first.Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.
Just because you read it on Reddit doesn't make you an authority. Like I said, you are right that eso lore is canon NOW, but it wasn't at first, and it didn't go over well at all with a lot of people. I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind.
But honestly, where you get your lore knowledge from doesn't matter, my point is, the lore was changed a LOT. Talk to some players that started when eso first released, the arguments over lore were huge, because a lot was modified to fit ZOS's vision of the lore.
I know that it's all green lit by Bethesda NOW, it wasn't at first. ZOS has a ton of power with Bethesda and a lot of the lore changes were strong armed into place, in much of it Bethesda didn't have a lot of choice, ZOS had control. A ton of players loyal to the lore were extremely upset by the changes made to it in eso.
I'm not going to argue with you, you can look it up and see all I'm saying is true. There were a lot more changes than minor plotholes as you said. Maybe that's what they are saying on Reddit, but a lot more changed than the lusty argonian maid.
Come on man, because you started playing since Arena doesn't make you an authority. It also doesn't make your vision of lore the absolute truth. What's wrong with lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind? As we all know, Bethesda only started to invest a lot in the lore since Morrowind, it gets interesting since Morrowind that's why many lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind. Bethesda has been rewritten their unfit lore since Morrowind, notably the whole naming system.
And no, the lore has been canon since the beginning.
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2012/10/18/reading-the-future-of-the-past-in-the-elder-scrolls
Everything you see is green lit by Bethesda. Hate it or love it, disagree or agree, Bethesda owns the IP, we don't. Lore is what they say it is.
"ZOS forcing Bethesda to accept their lore" is more or less tin-foil theory. Sorry, I don't have any tin-foil hat...
Yeah player were also extremely upset that "Red Diamond passive = P2W", that passive is proven to be useless now. Players simply didn't have the chance to experience enough of the lore at first.
Ok, last go at this, then I'm done, because you obviously aren't reading my posts anyway, and I'm tired of it and in the end, don't care that much if you understand.
My point isn't that I personally know the lore better, my point is simply that a LOT was changed, that is not my opinion or my take on the lore, that is FACT. Look it up. Also, the lore was only important after morrowind thing, is outright just wrong, most of the lore morrowind, oblivion and skyrim were built on is the history of the events that happened in and around the first games.
Again, the fact ZOS changed a lot of the lore is NOT my opinion, it's fact. Fact from more than 3 years ago. You can quote and post all the information from Reddit and Twitter from this year that you want, it won't change what happened.
I do have opinions on it as well, but the point you are missing is that the lore was changed by ZOS, and a lot of people didn't like it. That's not my opinion, that is from reading through hundreds of argument posts about lore in and around the time of eso release, on several different forums and sites.
You argue what is true today like a New Testament preacher claiming the Old Testament didn't exist. Just because something is right now, doesn't mean it wasn't different yesterday. That is my only point.
I'm out, you keep on believing your 1 to 2 year old lore, it's your game, play it and believe whatever you want.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TotallyNotVos wrote: »Can we stop with these threads? This idea has been suggested before, the majority don't care to change it.
@TotallyNotVos of course the majority doesn't care, as the vast majority of the playerbase don't visit the forums
with this logic, why bother even making threads or commenting on them if the majority of players won't read them
i seriously can't figure out the train of thought that lead to this critique of an idea lmaoskingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »hmsdragonfly wrote: »PlaceboSoul wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Not so.No one said anything about physical features. However, a Redguard that is raised in a culture where magic is the norm will have an affinity for it. The racial affinities would be tailored to the race with lore in mind.
Becuase the "affinity for magic" IS a physical feature in the elder scrolls lore - namely tied to elf blood. Altmer have it, Bretons have it through their interbreeding with the Direnni, Dunmer have it though somewhat skewed through their past... changes... Bosmer don't have it, because they kinda grew away from magic. And had some interbreeding going on themselves (one reason why the veiled heritage hates them - for "diluting mer blood")
Same for most of the other "classic" things, like Nord cold resistance (duh, live a couple centuries in frozen skyrim and you'll adapt... but it takes a couple centuries, not just "oh, I grew up there..."), or dunmer fire resistance...
And of course the purely physical stuff, like argonian gills and webbing or khajiit claws and cat-eyes (not that half of those make any impact in ESO, but... Lore!)
That is why the "racial affinities" can not be "tailored" and stay within the lore...
Only if they were to -ADD- another set of "cultural" passives, then we could have the choice you are looking for!
And I am ALL for adding those! (well, duh, I keep making the suggestion, here and in other threads ) More character background would be nifty! And then redguard mages could grab a "cultural background" that would help them a bit in their mage-ing...
No, you should!TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »You should really learn 2 Lore, The only reason Altmer are better with magic is because their culture is more directed towards magic study where as the Nords culture isnt, This doesn't mean a Nord can't use magic if he is brought up in a magic using society. The fact is Shadidor is a Nord and is probably a more powerful mage then Vanus Galerion who really seems to be all talk and no action.
The altmer have a racial advantage, always had. I believe the usual description goes something like:
...and a word like "gifted" usually denotes inneate ability, and not just training, right?The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races...
Oh, and another, the term for their magical advantage elsewhere in the TES series was "Highborn"... again, denoting an inborn advantage and not just some cultural training thing as some may wish to believe...
Sure, it doesn't mean other races cannot learn magic. And with enough dedication, become as good as any altmer. There are wizards around from all corners of Tamriel after all. Even nords, though that is something of an rare case, considering the general nord view on magic...
But again, an altmer will have a little leg up on the way to master mage. As will a breton, or dunmer (at least when it comes to destruction magic - the dunmer traditionally have had little advantage in other magics as i recall). While other races have other advantages no amout of training can gain.
What I would like to see in that regard was some ceiling to the magica power. Softcaps. Diminishing results. Whatever. Just so that, magica-affinity races would not be always the top, but just would reach that ceiling sooner. Say, get a 10% advantage, but only until they hit the ceiling, then it mecomes moot... and say, the ceiling would be at, for example, 40 points spent in magica, so altmer would only need to spend 36 and have those four points to spend elsewhere... while other races could reach the exact same power, but would have to make a little tradeoff elsewhere (possibly in a atat they are getting some racial bonus in)
But hey... that's me, I never liked the current system that rewards people who dump all their stat points into one resource...
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
ESO's lore is canon. Everything in there is green-lit by Bethesda.
There are only some minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable. In general, there's no massive lore-breaking issue in ESO.
If you don't believe me, go to r/teslore and see for yourself. Real TES lore enthusiasts are fine with ESO's lore, yes, real TES lore enthusiasts do play ESO.
So much wrong in what you said. I AM a real TES enthusiast, my first game was THE first game, Arena. Yes you are correct the eso lore is canon, but it was forced by ZOS. Look it up. Eso changed tons of the original lore, something a, "real TES lore enthusiast" would know.
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.
Just because you read it on Reddit doesn't make you an authority. Like I said, you are right that eso lore is canon NOW, but it wasn't at first, and it didn't go over well at all with a lot of people. I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind.
But honestly, where you get your lore knowledge from doesn't matter, my point is, the lore was changed a LOT. Talk to some players that started when eso first released, the arguments over lore were huge, because a lot was modified to fit ZOS's vision of the lore.
I know that it's all green lit by Bethesda NOW, it wasn't at first. ZOS has a ton of power with Bethesda and a lot of the lore changes were strong armed into place, in much of it Bethesda didn't have a lot of choice, ZOS had control. A ton of players loyal to the lore were extremely upset by the changes made to it in eso.
I'm not going to argue with you, you can look it up and see all I'm saying is true. There were a lot more changes than minor plotholes as you said. Maybe that's what they are saying on Reddit, but a lot more changed than the lusty argonian maid.
Come on man, because you started playing since Arena doesn't make you an authority. It also doesn't make your vision of lore the absolute truth. What's wrong with lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind? As we all know, Bethesda only started to invest a lot in the lore since Morrowind, it gets interesting since Morrowind that's why many lore enthusiasts started playing since Morrowind. Bethesda has been rewritten their unfit lore since Morrowind, notably the whole naming system.
And no, the lore has been canon since the beginning.
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2012/10/18/reading-the-future-of-the-past-in-the-elder-scrolls
Everything you see is green lit by Bethesda. Hate it or love it, disagree or agree, Bethesda owns the IP, we don't. Lore is what they say it is.
"ZOS forcing Bethesda to accept their lore" is more or less tin-foil theory. Sorry, I don't have any tin-foil hat...
Yeah player were also extremely upset that "Red Diamond passive = P2W", that passive is proven to be useless now. Players simply didn't have the chance to experience enough of the lore at first.
Ok, last go at this, then I'm done, because you obviously aren't reading my posts anyway, and I'm tired of it and in the end, don't care that much if you understand.
My point isn't that I personally know the lore better, my point is simply that a LOT was changed, that is not my opinion or my take on the lore, that is FACT. Look it up. Also, the lore was only important after morrowind thing, is outright just wrong, most of the lore morrowind, oblivion and skyrim were built on is the history of the events that happened in and around the first games.
Again, the fact ZOS changed a lot of the lore is NOT my opinion, it's fact. Fact from more than 3 years ago. You can quote and post all the information from Reddit and Twitter from this year that you want, it won't change what happened.
I do have opinions on it as well, but the point you are missing is that the lore was changed by ZOS, and a lot of people didn't like it. That's not my opinion, that is from reading through hundreds of argument posts about lore in and around the time of eso release, on several different forums and sites.
You argue what is true today like a New Testament preacher claiming the Old Testament didn't exist. Just because something is right now, doesn't mean it wasn't different yesterday. That is my only point.
I'm out, you keep on believing your 1 to 2 year old lore, it's your game, play it and believe whatever you want.
No, it's you that obviously aren't reading my posts. I also don't care if you understand.
I didn't say "the lore was only important after morrowind thing", I said, Bethesda started investing A LOT in the lore since Morrowind, they even started rewriting unfit lore since then. So, lore became interesting since Morrowind, that's why a lot of lore enthusiasts started playing since then, and by no mean is your voice more valuable than theirs just because you played Arena as you suggested. That's my point.
Again, I do acknowledge that several things are rewritten, like "Cyrodiil's jungle" i quoted way above, but my point is, Bethesda agrees with that change, as long as there's a proper explanation, like the in-game book I linked above, then it's fine. Bethesda owns the IP, you don't, they say it's canon, it's canon. You don't like it? It sucks, but since you don't own their IP, I don't think there's anything you can do about it. They have been rewriting a lot of unfit lore since Morrowind, it's not something new.
As I said, people were "extremely upset" at first because they didn't experience the lore enough to understand ESO's lore fully. Now, when people have played through the game and understand what is going on, few people complain about lore any more, as they realize it's pretty neat. Just like Red Diamond passive. At first people were "extremely upset" because they thought "Red Diamond = P2W", now they realize actually it's not OP at all, no one complains about it any more.
I cannot believe you are comparing TES lore to a religion. xD It's not like they rewrote the High Elves to be an insect-looking race that eat Nords for breakfast or anything, all major aspects are intact. I fail to see how a few people can be that close-minded and refuse to give up Cyrodiil's jungle. The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it.
I'm also out, keep on disagreeing with Bethesda. I also don't care if you understand.
Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭Omg, I'm not disagreeing with Bethesda. Also I never once said my voice was more important, in fact I clearly stated the opposite. I personally am NOT an expert on the lore.
Yes, Retcon lore can be "neat" I never once said I don't enjoy the lore of eso, I said it was changed. You started this whole thing by stating I was wrong, and all I had said was the lore was changed.
Since you just keep shifting perspective to suit your argument, in fact you are almost agreeing with my original post anyway now, and you are too lazy to use google, I will do it for you.
Taken from Reddit, a thread 3 years ago, NOT my words
Argonians are enslaved by the Dunmer, and wouldn't help them. Before Talos changed Cyrodiil's landscape via CHIM, it was a jungle, whereas in ESO which is pre Talos it is a temperate area Bosmer and Khajiit have always been at war, why would they be allies? The Breton's and Redguards had destroyed Orsinuim shortly before the game takes place. Nothing remains in the 3rd/4th era to hint that ANYTHING of this had ever happened. Most of the Towers were active at this time, so a daedra invasion couldent happen, unlike in Oblivion most of the Towers were inactive. Such as Walk-Brass not being on mundus White-Gold missing it's stone (Amulet of Kings) Snow-Throat is "bleeding" Red Mountain still has Lorkan's Heart Crystal-Like-Law has literately been destroyed
That is just to name a few. Whereas in TESO the only inactive towers were the one in Yokuda (I'm not an expert) Walk-Brass is in control by the Tribunal Red Mountain still has it's stone Crystal-Like-Law is still up Snow-Throat isn't "bleeding"
Those are just to name a few.
And the Argonians care nought for the rest of Tamriel, and the Hist would NEVER have told them to pair with the Dunmer. Even more so during the Oblivion Crisis (A MIRROR IMAGE OF THIS) the Argonians used this as an opportunity to INVADE Rysadin, not be allies with them!
The first Aldumeri Dominion has been founded in TESO BEFORE it was founded in the lore established since TES II: Daggerfall.
TL;DR - There were to many active towers harboring Mundus from Coldharbour, alliances make people who have previously been mortal enemies best friends.
EDIT: Also as someone else mentioned, they dismissed the jungle of Cyrodiil as a "Transcription error my MK (who has NEVER MADE ONE BEFORE), and casually ignoring and dismissing the lore.
Also the concept of taking Elder Scrolls from keeps is BS, they can't be stored anywhere, they just vanish in and out of space. With the Exception of those in White-Gold because its a Tower that holds together space, and was made with the purpose of attracting Elder Scrolls for study by the Alyieds.
And although that's just one case, it's a major problem and many fear (rightfully) that it speaks for the general quality of ESO and whatever else that monocled *** Lawrence Schick comes up with. You should keep in mind that TES lore is much more complicated than it appears, and for many fans watching ESO's plot unfold is like seeing someone paint *** on a Picasso.
Both of these are from just one thread, on just one site, from Reddit, 3 years ago. There are hundreds of threads, and there are even some that go back to 5 years ago and more, all about the changes to lore being wrought by eso.
NONE of this is by me, and it's all out there, just a Google search away.
Honestly, you are missing my point completely, I don't disagree with Bethesda at all, I know eso lore is canon now, all this is true. My only point that you can't seem to understand is the lore was changed.
Do a Google search on TES retcon. Look back on older lore about the tharn family, mannimarco, hell even a lot of the in game books. The dates and life spans are wrong, sometimes completely different eras.
Again, I Am NOT and never did say the eso lore isn't canon. I said it changed the original lore and many, many people were unhappy about it. That's all I said, and you started arguing with me about it. It's not you vs me, it's you vs historical fact. Nothing I have said is my own opinions, although I do have opinions, everything I've said is just quoted from other sources, of events and information that happened. Even Reddit, which you keep referencing has all the information to back up what I'm saying.
Fin.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlaceboSoul wrote: »Omg, I'm not disagreeing with Bethesda. Also I never once said my voice was more important, in fact I clearly stated the opposite. I personally am NOT an expert on the lore.
Yes, Retcon lore can be "neat" I never once said I don't enjoy the lore of eso, I said it was changed. You started this whole thing by stating I was wrong, and all I had said was the lore was changed.
Since you just keep shifting perspective to suit your argument, in fact you are almost agreeing with my original post anyway now, and you are too lazy to use google, I will do it for you.
Taken from Reddit, a thread 3 years ago, NOT my words
Argonians are enslaved by the Dunmer, and wouldn't help them. Before Talos changed Cyrodiil's landscape via CHIM, it was a jungle, whereas in ESO which is pre Talos it is a temperate area Bosmer and Khajiit have always been at war, why would they be allies? The Breton's and Redguards had destroyed Orsinuim shortly before the game takes place. Nothing remains in the 3rd/4th era to hint that ANYTHING of this had ever happened. Most of the Towers were active at this time, so a daedra invasion couldent happen, unlike in Oblivion most of the Towers were inactive. Such as Walk-Brass not being on mundus White-Gold missing it's stone (Amulet of Kings) Snow-Throat is "bleeding" Red Mountain still has Lorkan's Heart Crystal-Like-Law has literately been destroyed
That is just to name a few. Whereas in TESO the only inactive towers were the one in Yokuda (I'm not an expert) Walk-Brass is in control by the Tribunal Red Mountain still has it's stone Crystal-Like-Law is still up Snow-Throat isn't "bleeding"
Those are just to name a few.
And the Argonians care nought for the rest of Tamriel, and the Hist would NEVER have told them to pair with the Dunmer. Even more so during the Oblivion Crisis (A MIRROR IMAGE OF THIS) the Argonians used this as an opportunity to INVADE Rysadin, not be allies with them!
The first Aldumeri Dominion has been founded in TESO BEFORE it was founded in the lore established since TES II: Daggerfall.
TL;DR - There were to many active towers harboring Mundus from Coldharbour, alliances make people who have previously been mortal enemies best friends.
EDIT: Also as someone else mentioned, they dismissed the jungle of Cyrodiil as a "Transcription error my MK (who has NEVER MADE ONE BEFORE), and casually ignoring and dismissing the lore.
Also the concept of taking Elder Scrolls from keeps is BS, they can't be stored anywhere, they just vanish in and out of space. With the Exception of those in White-Gold because its a Tower that holds together space, and was made with the purpose of attracting Elder Scrolls for study by the Alyieds.
And although that's just one case, it's a major problem and many fear (rightfully) that it speaks for the general quality of ESO and whatever else that monocled *** Lawrence Schick comes up with. You should keep in mind that TES lore is much more complicated than it appears, and for many fans watching ESO's plot unfold is like seeing someone paint *** on a Picasso.
Both of these are from just one thread, on just one site, from Reddit, 3 years ago. There are hundreds of threads, and there are even some that go back to 5 years ago and more, all about the changes to lore being wrought by eso.
NONE of this is by me, and it's all out there, just a Google search away.
Honestly, you are missing my point completely, I don't disagree with Bethesda at all, I know eso lore is canon now, all this is true. My only point that you can't seem to understand is the lore was changed.
Do a Google search on TES retcon. Look back on older lore about the tharn family, mannimarco, hell even a lot of the in game books. The dates and life spans are wrong, sometimes completely different eras.
Again, I Am NOT and never did say the eso lore isn't canon. I said it changed the original lore and many, many people were unhappy about it. That's all I said, and you started arguing with me about it. It's not you vs me, it's you vs historical fact. Nothing I have said is my own opinions, although I do have opinions, everything I've said is just quoted from other sources, of events and information that happened. Even Reddit, which you keep referencing has all the information to back up what I'm saying.
Fin.
Lol, no, you are "shifting perspective to suit your argument", not me. This is my 2nd comment:hmsdragonfly wrote: »
Firstly, let be clear that any lore in ESO is green-lit by Bethesda. So, if you disagree with something major, well it sucks because Bethesda says otherwise. Cyrodiil wasn't a jungle? Sorry, Bethesda agrees that the description in TES 3 was "an error in transcription" made by Heimskr. There's an official explanation in the game: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Heartland_of_Cyrodiil
You don't agree with that change? It sucks, but nothing you can do about it, Bethesda disagrees with you. They own the IP, they can rewrite the lore as they see fit, you cannot.
Secondly, as I said, minor plotholes, like Lusty Argonian Maid, are expected. It is expected as there are so many different people writing TES lore, inconsistency is inevitable.
Thirdly, r/teslore, there you go. Explore it. People there are mostly positive about ESO's lore.
I acknowledged that several things are changed since my 2nd comment. My point is that Bethesda says it's ok to be changed and there's a proper in-game explanation for the change, so it's fine, I don't see anything wrong with it, Bethesda has been rewriting lore since Morrowind, it's not something new. Don't avoid the point. You are the one who is "shifting perspective to suit your argument" here, not me.
Regarding "lore enthusiast", this is what you said: " I didn't get my lore knowledge from Reddit, or any other website, I learned it playing every single game for hundred or more hours. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and then Skyrim. Most people posting on a lot of sites nowadays started playing the series with morrowind."
Pretty sure by that you meant your voice is more valuable than those who started playing since Morrowind, else, why boasting that you started playing since Arena and look down on people who started playing since Morrowind? But anyway that's not important here.
About that reddit post, as I have explained above, the guy simply didn't experience ESO's lore enough to understand it.
1) About Argonian and Dunmer: the game infact explained why they had to work together, and why that alliance is so fragile that it is not going to stay for a long time.
2) Same with Redguard, Breton and Orc. They don't trust each other and even almost went to war.
3) Cyrodiil's jungle was explained in-game.
4) The main questline explained the invasion.
Pretty sure he didn't even play the game.
And again, you are avoiding the point here. "many people were unhappy about it" at first because they didn't experience the lore enough to understand ESO's lore fully. Now, when people have played through the game and understand what is going on, few people complain about lore any more, as they realize it's pretty neat. Just like Red Diamond passive. At first people were "extremely upset" because they thought "Red Diamond = P2W", now they realize actually it's not OP at all, no one complains about it any more. Also, I fail to see how a few people can be that close-minded and refuse to give up things like Cyrodiil's jungle. The change is reasonable and there is a proper in-game explanation for it.
I will remind you of your opinion about ESO's lore in case you want to change it in the future:PlaceboSoul wrote: »
I really do agree with the majority of your argument, the only thing is, the lore line has been savagely obliterated by ZOS already. So I guess it comes down to where we draw the new line in the sand for eso, because historical lore already got savagely ***. If ZOS was keeping tight to the lore all along, I would be more outraged at ideas to alter certain details, but as it stands, they've stomped so much of the other lore, what's one more aspect.
Personally, I'd like to see eso stick 100% to the lore. But to make that happen, there would need to be a massive rewrite, and ZOS isn't going to do that, they have already told Bethesda fairly plain, they did what they wanted, they aren't changing it, deal with it. So really, we are already dealing in a new "alternate universe" anyway.
But yeah, I mourn the lore in eso almost every time I play it.
Oh, and if you want to take a look at reddit, make sure to look at r/teslore, not r/elderscrolls, r/skyrim or whatever xD
Like this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/290bmc/how_accurate_is_eso_with_its_lore/Edited by hmsdragonfly on March 3, 2017 5:50AMAldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!1 -
PlaceboSoul✭✭✭R/teslore is where I got that thread i quoted from.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0
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PlaceboSoul✭✭✭I am truly done though, you are arguing just to argue and its tiresome. I mean honestly, if you acknowledge what I was saying was correct then why the f are you shifting things and trying to win a nonexistent argument.
Attacking me for various parts of my defence to your initial attack, when you know what I said to be true? Wtf
Just stop. You're not even arguing about my point anymore, and you are the type of person who thinks they are right no matter what evidence is put before you, which I've done, and you still argue. You even direct me to the very thread I quoted from. Twice.
My initial point was only that the lore has been changed already, so it wouldn't be a big deal to change it more. That's just fact. The only part that was my opinion, is in what you just quoted, I would love to see eso stick to the original lore 100%, but since it's already been changed, that point is moot
The bold is my only opinion on the matter, the rest is fact, that you yourself have already conceded. If you notice as well, what I said in bold, my opinion, is in line with what you want as well.
So for tamriel's sake, just stop arguing. You are awesome and all knowing. There, happy?PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!0
